LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Dashell]

Please refresh my memory then if you would. I recall her saying that before the lifestream event, she wakes up Zack with her thinking about him when she thinks she's thinking about Cloud. Then she sees the real Cloud, flirts with Zack a bit, and then entrusts Cloud and her feelings she had for him to Tifa.

...

Then she sees the real Cloud, flirts with Zack a bit, and then entrusts Cloud and her feelings she had for him to Tifa.

flirts with Zack a bit

No really, she NEVER flirted with Zack... This is from Chapter 1, way before the lifestream even or before Zack.

She loved him much more than her first love. Cloud was her hero and he couldn't get away from danger. She saw him as someone full of confidence, cool and had the impression that he would disappear in an instant if she took her eyes off him. She wanted to stay by his side forever if she could. She really wanted to.

Zack doesn't come around till chapter 5.

And when he does she shows no interest in him romantically.

"And that's your bad point. You're not simplistic and awkward like Cloud."

THat's what she says. How is that flirting?

So you acknowledge she was still preoccupied with Zack?

Also, how did she go from "I wanna get to know this guy" to "OMG GREATEST LOVE OF ALL" (que Whitney) in the space of, what, a day?

At first, sure, he was her first love. That takes a while to get over I'm sure.

Also I don't think she died the next day... did she? Either way, when she realized she was chasing Cloud for Zack, her feelings didn't change... and they only grew stronger after she died and really did get to know the real him.

Also what. I thought Arnold was generally annoyed by Helga's bullying but Helga was rockin' tsundere before many kids knew what that meant. I thought Arnold loved Ruth/random etc. girls in the series but I do not recall Arnold or Helga ever dating.

Did you see later episodes, "Married" and "Arnold Visits Arnie" in particular.
These episodes show that Arnold does love Helga, but he doesn't realize it yet. They ALSO show that the knows Helga loves him. Also the creator said they'd get married

 

[Isabella]

C'mon, Quex. Why are you using something that comes before she realizes she doesn't know who Cloud is?

And I took Zack and Aerith's conversation as playful. Not flirty necessarily, but not negative either.

 

[Dashell]

C'mon, Quex. Why are you using something that comes before she realizes she doesn't know who Cloud is?

...

Okay I'm sorry, what?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Flirting, playful, whatever you want to call it.

She saw him as someone full of confidence, cool and had the impression that he would disappear in an instant if she took her eyes off him. She wanted to stay by his side forever if she could. She really wanted to.

And this all doesn't send messages off in your head that OMG THAT'S NOT THE REAL CLOUD! I mean, the "he would disappear" thing is the biggest clue right there, she's thinking about how she lost Zack.

And that's your bad point. You're not simplistic and awkward like Cloud.

Ya this sounds like being playful. She's already stated in the above quote what she thought she loved about Cloud. Awkward and simplistic != full of confidence and cool.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Did you see later episodes, "Married" and "Arnold Visits Arnie" in particular.
These episodes show that Arnold does love Helga, but he doesn't realize it yet. They ALSO show that the knows Helga loves him. Also the creator said they'd get married

is that the one where he has the nightmare about being married to Helga? I don't remember the other one though. But using a love where one is oblivious to the other and comparing it to Zerith is odd to say the least.

 

[Dashell]

After the lifestream event, Cloud seemed pretty full of confidence and cool to me. He finally accept himself for who he was and what not.

is that the one where he has the nightmare about being married to Helga? I don't remember the other one though. But using a love where one is oblivious to the other and comparing it to Zerith is odd to say the least.

Arnold isn't oblivious though, and my point is that they were young so it wasn't true love yet... or something

 

[ShuShu]

You aren't being clear, I think Tenny was the first one to point that out, and rather than make yourself clear you got defensive.

I wasnt defensive, I just believed myself to be very clear, and still do.

You are jumping to contradiction and stating things like "Exposing contridictions by SE on Zack and Aerith's relationship" before you attempt to see how these things connect and work together. Perhaps it's how bold you were in implying that there was this major contradiction rather than asking your questions first and then deciding whether or not a contradiction had been made.

I wasnt trying to be bold so much as explain what I was arguing. Lol. Which wasnt what you were implying. I dont like the wrong image of what I say to be spread either, and despite constantly saying im not trying to say Zerith is baseless, you argued with me as if I was.

 

[Celes Chere]

Ever seen Hey Arnold? Arnold and Helga love each other, but they're just kids so their love hasn't fully developed yet...

 

[Dashell]

You act like you expected something else from me

 

[Isabella]

...

Okay I'm sorry, what?

MoTP in five easy steps!

1. Aerith waxes poetic on the "cool, confident, heroic" Cloud she loves.
2. Aerith thinks about the things she loves about Cloud. Zack awakens, recognizing himself.
3. Aerith watches C/T in the lifestream and sees the whole picture, including her previous misunderstanding of who he is.
4. Aerith gives them her blessing.
5. Aerith and Zack participate in a little playful verbal sparring, which, if you've seen their scenes in CC, you know isn't unusual for them.

 

[Dashell]

Okay so you're asking why I'm using the "She loved him more than her first love..." thing to prove my point, right?

3. Aerith watches C/T in the lifestream and sees the whole picture, including her previous misunderstanding of who he is.

Didn't she also say she preferred Cloud's simple awkwardness to Zack's outgoingness or whatever after this event, though?

4. Aerith gives them her blessing.

TO MAKE SAMMICHES!

5. Aerith and Zack participate in a little playful verbal sparring, which, if you've seen their scenes in CC, you know isn't unusual for them.

In CC I don't recall her saying things like "I prefer Cloud's X to your Y" (and yes I know she didn't know Cloud, that's not the point) or "I'll only call you if I get really lonely."
That doesn't sound like love to me... I seem to recall things more along the lines of hugging and thanking between Aerith and Zack in CC.

 

[Isabella]

"I'll only call you if I get really lonely."

Do you think it's more likely she said this to poke fun at him, or that she was completely sincere? Is it like Aerith to be so mean? And, let's not forget, she does call him later.

 

[ShuShu]

MotP is way more Zerith friendly than ColW. Its got that much.

It doesnt really solidify anything , like a reformed relationship unless Zacks line at the final was kicking at something. Which it had to be there for some reason.

Before I'm misunderstood. Solidify as in there was no "I was wrong I love YOU Zack" or anything of that sort.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I wasnt defensive, I just believed myself to be very clear, and still do.

Whether you are being clear or not would be the person listening, or in this case, reading's perspective, not yours.

Also replying to someone telling you they are confused with your train of thought followed with "I thought I was being clear" rather than just explaining yourself sounds defensive.

I wasnt trying to be bold so much as explain what I was arguing. Lol. Which wasnt what you were implying.

I was implying you were jumping to the conclusion that there were contradictions, nothing more.

I dont like the wrong image of what I say to be spread either, and despite constantly saying im not trying to say Zerith is baseless, you argued with me as if I was.

I argued with what I stated above. I said that it 'appeared' that you were doing this out of some desire for Zerith to be baseless, because that's generally how this all works. If that isn't what you are doing then that's fine but it doesn't change that it's how you initially, at least to me, were presenting yourself.

 

[Isabella]

It doesnt really solidify anything , like a reformed relationship unless Zacks line at the final was kicking at something. Which it had to be there for some reason.

I don't think there's any reformed relationship. They're both dead. Dead people can't continue relationships as if nothing happened.

 

[ShuShu]

Also replying to someone telling you they are confused with your train of thought followed with "I thought I was being clear" rather than just explaining yourself sounds defensive.

But I *DID* explain myself. And was quite clear. In fact, other people understood just fine so the 'other people see it to' goes both ways,

I argued with what I stated above. I said that it 'appeared' that you were doing this out of some desire for Zerith to be baseless, because that's generally how this all works. If that isn't what you are doing then that's fine but it doesn't change that it's how you initially, at least to me, were presenting yourself.

Misunderstanding me is your own fault, not my own. Implying otherwise is sort of odd. Especially since I posted direct opposite statements to what you were arguing before you even retorted. Like not trying to disprove Zerith.

Edit- Agreed Isabella.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I don't think there's any reformed relationship. They're both dead. Dead people can't continue relationships as if nothing happened.

I believe there was probably some peace to be had by Aerith finally knowing the truth, and maybe they compared notes a bit on what had happened, but beyond that they aren't continuing a relationship together in the lifestream. If they could there would be no point to death at all in FFVII, and we all know that's one of the major themes of the game and movie.

 

[Dashell]

Do you think it's more likely she said this to poke fun at him, or that she was completely sincere? Is it like Aerith to be so mean? And, let's not forget, she does call him later.

I don't think it's really either... I mean she's joking around sure, but that's an odd thing to say to your one true love after not seeing him for so long, don't you think?

 

[Isabella]

that's an odd thing to say to your one true love after not seeing him for so long, don't you think?

Isn't she also playful with Cloud the first time she sees him in AC?

 

[Dashell]

Not nearly to the same extent. "I don't want to see you again unless I get really lonely" which ... implies what it says I think... is quite different from "Who do you want to be forgiven by?" which means "no one is angry so why do you want to be forgiven"

 

[Isabella]

Zack's not in the state of hopelessness that Cloud is.

I just think Aerith is a playful person, and that sort of banter between her and Zack was in CC as well, IIRC.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Not nearly to the same extent. "I don't want to see you again unless I get really lonely" which ... implies what it says I think... is quite different from "Who do you want to be forgiven by?" which means "no one is angry so why do you want to be forgiven"

I guess you can just take the first line to be really sarcastic, as in of course she's going to call on him again and he'd know that.

Maiden keeps one thing clear, that Aerith's confused about Cloud because of Zack. However, Aerith and Zack's relationship itself is what Maiden seems to get wrong. It makes it sound like the relationship is only going to really get started after Zack gets back from that mission, or that Zack had multiple girlfriends during the time he knew Aerith (not all at once per say). And maybe this is where SE wanted the character to go at the time. Maybe it was supervised and they said "ya that works".

But somewhere this idea got tossed aside and we now see Zerith for what it really is. Maiden isn't canon so at best all we can use it for is one person's look at how Aerith in the lifestream might have been.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And you've never really changed my mind with your answers.

Despite them being large parts fact and common sense, with very little speculation?

Maiden was never official stricken from the record like Last Order was IIRC. It just was not mentioned at all. Personally I don't use it in debates but I don't use the Dengeki profiles anymore either.

It was also never mentioned as narratively important either, ALSO unlike LO, which is not in continuity, BUT IS STILL SOMEHOW WORTH LOOKING AT according to the creators.

Yes, he loved her.. I've said this many o times. He also risked his life to save Cloud... he and Cloud were best friends, right? I'm saying the romantic love wasn't completely serious... but I'm sure he loved Aerith very much, even if that part of their relationship hadn't developed totally.

The hell does CLOUD have to do with anything here? The romantic love was totally fucking series. It was the only goddamn reason he WENT to Midgar, the only reason he HAD to give his life to save Cloud's. It's the reason his last memories, last words, and even last thoughts ARE OF HER. I cannot stress efuckingnough that ZACK was DEAD SERIOUS about Aerith, and Aerith alone.

Does that make any sense at all?

Not if you've played CC. No.

You missed my point. Why would Square recall the 20th Anniversary Scenario if it was incorrect but not recall Maiden?... is what my point is I believe. Cause someone said it... I don't remember who...

I don't think anyone said anything about recall. I think what was said was that the more recent Ultis and U20 especially have been written with far more attention to detail and more scrutiny than the earlier UO, Dismantled, etc.
And Maiden's been contravened in multiple salient manners, which is effectively the same as striking it on those counts, a la LO.

Fair enough, I just don't go to the cloti board very often cause you guys are all here.

Cloti CLUB, Quex. Also on the forum.

The information in the Ultimanias is done with close supervision. Why would they not do that with Maiden? It was in the Ultimania!

At the end. Literally after the index. It could not be more an afterthought. And Benny said he had no guidelines or supervision, unlike the rest of the book.

She says it several times in Maiden... not just once.

Twice, at best, if the 'second' time isn't just her playing with Zack.

Ugh, again I'm not saying she didn't love Cloud for Zack at first, but eventually she realized she was chasing him for Zack, she decided to get to know the real him.

And then she died. So she didn't KNOW the real Cloud to love him more than Zack. She knew ZaCloud.

Additionally, ShuShu, you seem to be looking at the quotes in a particular way and seeing them as contradictory, rather than seeing if there is a way to read them which does not contradict, a la 'Platonic love' and not realizing it is paired with 'passionate romantic love' and can meaning 'sexless' as well and instead of the more common 'fillial' usage.

 

[ShuShu]

Additionally, ShuShu, you seem to be looking at the quotes in a particular way and seeing them as contradictory, rather than seeing if there is a way to read them which does not contradict, a la 'Platonic love' and not realizing it is paired with 'passionate romantic love' and can meaning 'sexless' as well and instead of the more common 'fillial' usage.

Yar. I figured that out awhile ago. Thanks though~ I'd never seen a romantic relationship described as platonic, like ever, and it had me confused there for a minute. Found my way around that though.

Since the imminent force of all things is on and currently LTDing can you explain this one to me Ryu.

"They attract to each other by mutual feelings similar to friendship, because they're both juvenile, if you call it love..."

I know you probably have before but just for my peace of mind.

 

[Dashell]

Despite them being large parts fact and common sense, with very little speculation?

Saying the love that Aerith and Zack felt wasn't mature because they were young isn't speculation when the creators have stated it.

The hell does CLOUD have to do with anything here? The romantic love was totally fucking series.

... nah too easy

It was the only goddamn reason he WENT to Midgar, the only reason he HAD to give his life to save Cloud's. It's the reason his last memories, last words, and even last thoughts ARE OF HER. I cannot stress efuckingnough that ZACK was DEAD SERIOUS about Aerith, and Aerith alone.

FFS, am I really not being that clear? I'm pretty sure I am. I'll say it again:

I AM NOT SAYING ZACK AND AERITH DID NOT LOVE ONE ANOTHER. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WERE NOT CLOSE. I AM NOT SAYING ZACK DID NOT LOVE AERITH. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WEREN'T A COUPLE! I AM NOT SAYING THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THEM LOVING EACH OTHER!

When they fell in love they were young, and a young teen's love is different from an adult's love. They were serious about each other, yes, but the love Aerith has for Cloud is more mature. Because she's more mature and grown up at that point.

If Zack had lived and he and Aerith met up again, I'm sure their love would have matured as well. Maybe this is just a personal opinion of mine, but I feel that you can't really feel serious mature love when you're just a teen. You can feel love and such, and it can be real love and true love but it's not the same as when you grow up.

Cloti CLUB, Quex. Also on the forum.

Really I don't see what was so bad about me asking for Cloti opinion in this thread. How many Cleriths people have been here like ever?

At the end. Literally after the index. It could not be more an afterthought. And Benny said he had no guidelines or supervision, unlike the rest of the book.

Hmm... I didn't know he said that, when did he say that?

Twice, at best, if the 'second' time isn't just her playing with Zack.

If I met my true love after 4 years of not seeing him, I'm not going to say "I only want to see you if I'm really lonely" I'm sorry but that's just... a very strange way to show your love for someone. Goofing or not.

And then she died. So she didn't KNOW the real Cloud to love him more than Zack. She knew ZaCloud.

She got to know him in the lifestream, right? Yeah I'm not going to bring up CoLW again because I know where that's going to get us.


BTW
you said the Degeki profiles were official because they were in a magazine with official interviews... shouldn't that make Maiden canon?

EDIT 2:
Uhm does anyone know how long it took Aerith and Zack to fall in love?

EDIT 3:
Uh oh, Vennie's here, now I"m really gonna get it