LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Vendel]

EDIT 3:
Uh oh, Vennie's here, now I"m really gonna get it

Three pages ago maybe. But I am tired and what needed to be said has been said.

Oh and Aerith/Zack, Tifa/Cloud.

 

[Dashell]

But I am tired and what needed to be said has been said.

Because I said it

 

[Vendel]

Because I said it

Don't make me destroy you.

 

[Dashell]

I'm doubtful that you could but intrigued that you might.

 

[Dashell]

FYI some think we've been "debunked" because on page w/e of the Ultimania Scenario (the one that For the One That I Love links to), it mentions two possible conversations for Cloud and Tifa to have. It only talks about the High Affection version and both end the same way and the way they both end is shown on The One That I Love, but this is what they think debunks it and makes Cloud's affection for Tifa optional.

This page BTW:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_y5BQ024xgCA/S6R6A23rz7I/AAAAAAAAAC4/jg2Agb4GdIU/s1600/hw2.jpg

Doesn't it technically make Tifa's affection for Cloud optional?

 

[Vendel]

Oh fuck. This place is gonna go all 'The Happening' once this becomes public knowledge.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yar. I figured that out awhile ago. Thanks though~ I'd never seen a romantic relationship described as platonic, like ever, and it had me confused there for a minute. Found my way around that though.

Since the imminent force of all things is on and currently LTDing can you explain this one to me Ryu.

I know you probably have before but just for my peace of mind.

While I don't remember the exact quote, I'm 99% sure that's not properly translated, and refers to their first stirrings- IE when they just met, not after two years.
And remember this always- if Zack and Aerith are too juvenile for love, then so are all FF heroes besides Cecil.

Saying the love that Aerith and Zack felt wasn't mature because they were young isn't speculation when the creators have stated it.

Except I'm pretty sure it's mangled a bit.

... nah too easy

So's Aerith, putting out for any guy with a five foot sword. Even letting one penetrate her in public.

FFS, am I really not being that clear? I'm pretty sure I am. I'll say it again:

I AM NOT SAYING ZACK AND AERITH DID NOT LOVE ONE ANOTHER. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WERE NOT CLOSE. I AM NOT SAYING ZACK DID NOT LOVE AERITH. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WEREN'T A COUPLE! I AM NOT SAYING THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THEM LOVING EACH OTHER!

When they fell in love they were young, and a young teen's love is different from an adult's love. They were serious about each other, yes, but the love Aerith has for Cloud is more mature. Because she's more mature and grown up at that point.

No. It's not. Because it is BASED ON THAT JUVENILE LOVE FOR ZACK.

If Zack had lived and he and Aerith met up again, I'm sure their love would have matured as well. Maybe this is just a personal opinion of mine, but I feel that you can't really feel serious mature love when you're just a teen. You can feel love and such, and it can be real love and true love but it's not the same as when you grow up.

You're describing a difference in the people experiencing the love, not the love itself.

Really I don't see what was so bad about me asking for Cloti opinion in this thread. How many Cleriths people have been here like ever?

What was bad was asking for the 'CLOTI' position. When many of us DO NOT FUCKING SHIP.

Hmm... I didn't know he said that, when did he say that?

On his website.

If I met my true love after 4 years of not seeing him, I'm not going to say "I only want to see you if I'm really lonely" I'm sorry but that's just... a very strange way to show your love for someone. Goofing or not.

And yet this is the same person who fell for someone else because of how she still feels for Zack. She's. Being. Playful. It's RIGHT back to their old routine.

She got to know him in the lifestream, right? Yeah I'm not going to bring up CoLW again because I know where that's going to get us.

No. Not in any meaningful way- no more than reading about a historical figure. In any case, that's AFTER everything else, meaning everything previous IS MEANINGLESS.

BTW
you said the Degeki profiles were official because they were in a magazine with official interviews... shouldn't that make Maiden canon?

WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS.
Maiden has been considered not to count because IT HAS NEVER BEEN RECOGNIZED anywhere else, INCLUDING in the UO it came in, and has been ignored and contradicted numerous times.

EDIT 2:
Uhm does anyone know how long it took Aerith and Zack to fall in love?

"Like falling into a sudden crush" which then blossomed into an irreplacable existence.
For two years. And Zack was intending on retiring from SOLDIER and living with Aerith had Nibelheim happened.

As for the fucktarded 'debunking' I've said it before, I'll say it again. YES, there are two versions. No, that doesn't mean one isn't canon. There are two endings to KOTOR. Only one counts.

 

[Dashell]

While I don't remember the exact quote, I'm 99% sure that's not properly translated, and refers to their first stirrings- IE when they just met, not after two years.
And remember this always- if Zack and Aerith are too juvenile for love, then so are all FF heroes besides Cecil.

Well if the quote is wrong like you're saying it is then that's one thing. But I assumed the creators were trying to get across that they were too young to have a mature love...

and really? How old were Tidus and Yuna? Why do I remember them being older than they were probably?

No. It's not. Because it is BASED ON THAT JUVENILE LOVE FOR ZACK.

Sure at first, but then she tried to get to know him. After she DID get to know him, she still said to Za-... screw it, you don't think Maiden is canon anyways.

You're describing a difference in the people experiencing the love, not the love itself.

... oh

What was bad was asking for the 'CLOTI' position. When many of us DO NOT FUCKING SHIP.

You know what I mean when I ask that... and if you don't, I know you aren't a SHIPPER, but you believe CxT is canon and I call those people Clotis

What should I call you?

On his website.

well shit

And yet this is the same person who fell for someone else because of how she still feels for Zack. She's. Being. Playful. It's RIGHT back to their old routine.

About this, I'm not saying she's not being playful and teasing him. But I see it as more of a no hard feelings, I guess you aren't so bad rather than teasing a guy she really wants to see again.

WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS.
Maiden has been considered not to count because IT HAS NEVER BEEN RECOGNIZED anywhere else, INCLUDING in the UO it came in, and has been ignored and contradicted numerous times.

I KNOW that, I even SAID that, I'm trying to make a point. Have the Dengeki profiles ever been mentioned? ANd feel free to tell me if they have and I'll be more than happy to eat my words.

"Like falling into a sudden crush" which then blossomed into an irreplacable existence.
For two years. And Zack was intending on retiring from SOLDIER and living with Aerith had Nibelheim happened.

.... aww

that... didn't quite answer the question though but thanks

As for the fucktarded 'debunking' I've said it before, I'll say it again. YES, there are two versions. No, that doesn't mean one isn't canon. There are two endings to KOTOR. Only one counts.

I understand but honestly I was a little disappointed when I found out that page mentioned both versions.

 

[Raquelborn]

When they fell in love they were young, and a young teen's love is different from an adult's love. They were serious about each other, yes, but the love Aerith has for Cloud is more mature. Because she's more mature and grown up at that point.

I thought Aerith was 17 at that point and Zack was in his early twenties. That's not really teens, they were just young adults. I don't imagine a few years to get just past 20 makes much difference.

Aerith doesn't seem to have grown up much either. She's the same, maybe a little less naive, but more happy to grasp at things (like Cloud.)


Oh, and is there a translation of that page you posted, Quex?

 

[Eerie]

Oh well... I missed a lot _o/

What SE said about Zerith is likely the very reason why the Japaneses love that pairing so much. No kidding there. And it's deeply rooted in why they love unrequited love stories so much too, although Zerith was two ways: because the love is kept "pure" and not tainted by lust.

So when SE says that it's such a deep love, yet platonic, they mean it that way; it's simply a deep, pure love. The fact that Zack dies on his way to meet her again, IMHO, simply prevents it from growing more physical

Either way, as Bella said; they're dead, so this is where it ends. And so, Zerith is the tragic, pure love of FFVII.

And Que, don't call people "cloti" just because they're able to see it. I'm a CloTi because I'm a shipper, but I know that's not the case of many here, which is why they've been on your back

Raq, I think that was translated here, somewhere in this humongous thread...

 

[Raquelborn]

Raq, I think that was translated here, somewhere in this humongous thread...

...

The search function is rubbish by the way, people.

"" Indeed.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well if the quote is wrong like you're saying it is then that's one thing. But I assumed the creators were trying to get across that they were too young to have a mature love...

Which make'a no goddamn sense if you look at the direction the display said love take.

and really? How old were Tidus and Yuna? Why do I remember them being older than they were probably?

They were 17. Same age as Aerith before Nibelheim. A year younger than Zack.
Squall and Rinoa were also no older.
Zidane and Garnet were a year younger.

Sure at first, but then she tried to get to know him. After she DID get to know him, she still said to Za-... screw it, you don't think Maiden is canon anyways.

Which, again, comes back to my point that her love is not 'more mature' because it's based on NOT KNOWING Cloud, and liking Zack. Even AFTER she gets to meet Cloud, and teases Zack, she BARELY knows Chocobutt. It is NOT a mature love at all.

... oh

You know what I mean when I ask that... and if you don't, I know you aren't a SHIPPER, but you believe CxT is canon and I call those people Clotis

What should I call you?

Sane.

About this, I'm not saying she's not being playful and teasing him. But I see it as more of a no hard feelings, I guess you aren't so bad rather than teasing a guy she really wants to see again.

And she acts exactly towards Cloud in AC/C, a man you think she has a mature love for, after not seeing him for two years.

I KNOW that, I even SAID that, I'm trying to make a point. Have the Dengeki profiles ever been mentioned? ANd feel free to tell me if they have and I'll be more than happy to eat my words.

The Dengeki are currently the latest word on the subject, Quex. The post-date EVERY OTHER source.

.... aww

that... didn't quite answer the question though but thanks

It did. You just have to look at it properly.

I understand but honestly I was a little disappointed when I found out that page mentioned both versions.

Why? It's literally no different than 'There are two endings to KOTOR. In the Light Side ending, yadda yadda yadda' and then later only referring to events that occur in the light side version as 'canon' without saying 'the light side version is canon.'

I thought Aerith was 17 at that point and Zack was in his early twenties. That's not really teens, they were just young adults. I don't imagine a few years to get just past 20 makes much difference.

In their cases, it really doesn't, given the lack of extra romantic opportunities.

Aerith doesn't seem to have grown up much either. She's the same, maybe a little less naive, but more happy to grasp at things (like Cloud.)

Agreed.

 

[Shadowfox]

Aerith doesn't seem to have grown up much either. She's the same, maybe a little less naive, but more happy to grasp at things (like Cloud.)

I agree. She's older, but she's still wanting that love she had with Zack, and chases after her second chance at it wholeheartedly with a man who's just like her first love.

because the love is kept "pure" and not tainted by lust.

So when SE says that it's such a deep love, yet platonic, they mean it that way; it's simply a deep, pure love. The fact that Zack dies on his way to meet her again, IMHO, simply prevents it from growing more physical

Either way, as Bella said; they're dead, so this is where it ends. And so, Zerith is the tragic, pure love of FFVII.

I can't be the only one who finds Z/A being labelled as the "pure, deep love untainted by lust" thing funny. Wasn't this how the rabid Cleriths used to describe their ideal C/A? Especially when they wanted to contrast it against the sinful, messy physical relationship of C/T?

 

[Vendel]

Especially when they wanted to contrast it against the sinful, messy physical relationship of C/T?

Did it just get hot in here?

 

[Eerie]

@Shadowfox: ahah, actually, I thought so too while writing it down XD It can't be helped that SE gave that to Zerith though [and I don't even ship them].

@Bill: that's Cloud & Tifa effect. XD Remember we love them for that XD

 

[Dashell]

Translation on said page:

"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Translation on said page:

"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

Okay, so it says that there are two versions but it only mentions the HA version and goes into no detail about the LA version. IDK, I'd still say that means Cloud and Tifa sharing their feelings is canon. :\

 

[Dashell]

The image shown on For The One That I Love is from either version, that's enough for me. If it was just from the high affection version, they may have an argument here, but now it's just grasping at straws. At the very least, there will be no more "Cloud rejected Tifa under the highwind" stuffs.


and $50 says whoever is activating their account now on TFC is someone who's going to tell us this translation as if we didn't already know it.

EDIT
Oh it's the girl I invited from youtube who said she wasn't going to sign up or something... sweet

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Translation on said page:

"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

Yeah, that's my translation of that, which has been available since my translation of the "For the One I Love" page. Not sure why they're acting like it's new.

In any event, as can be seen there, it only describes the one version (the high affection version), and -- unlike other parts of the story summary where a "Deviation" heading appears -- that one actually includes one of the possible outcomes in the main body of the summary.

The line underlined in red in the picture Que linked earlier says "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match" (そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合&#12358.

Also, how many times does it have to be pointed out to people that acquiring Vincent and Yuffie is optional, and that the story summary acknowledges this, yet it still treats acquiring them as part of the official story? Same deal for the Wutai side quest, Vincent's flashback at Lucrecia's cave, and the Zack flashback in Nibelheim.

Optional doesn't mean there's no canon outcome.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah, that's my translation of that, which has been available since my translation of the "For the One I Love" page. Not sure why they're acting like it's new.

Yeah I was surprised they hadn't seen it before, I could have sworn I saw them talking about it before. in fact I thought that's one of the reasons they were so upset because it didn't mention the Low Affection scene. I must have really been tripping or something.

At any rate, I did inform them that this was nothing new and we knew about this for a while

 

[Raquelborn]

The thing is that it's stated there's two versions, in one there's strong feelings for each other and in the other it naturally follows the feelings are less strong. Either way, we still get the other page telling us they have mutual romantic feelings. There's no either-or.

So them mentioning there's two versions of the scene doesn't really matter in the end. Like others have said, it only describes the high affection version anyway, so, if you care enough to want either one to be canon, it's going to be the high affection version.

EDIT:

Optional doesn't mean there's no canon outcome.

Yah.

 

[Dashell]

If you ask me it showing a scene from either the High or Low affection scene means "There's romantic love either way, but yes there are two choices of dialogue."

 

[Althea]

^I agree

I was looking at the dialogue in the low affection version and it isn't exactly damning. Besdies, the lifestream is the defining scene in this part of the game, and it's not interchangeable. The only difference really in the dialogue is that it is a little more neutral. It doesn't change Cloud's feelings towards Tifa really, as those were revealed in the lifestream...

meh...

 

[Raquelborn]

I felt he was more aloof in the low affection version. Almost like he didn't really care and felt awkward because of it.

But then. It's Cloud.

 

[Althea]

Yeah he certainly was more nonchalant but, is this anything unusual from cloud, dood has a hard time opening up as it is...

I dunno, either way, I just didnt see the low affection scene as a damning scene for Cloud and Tifa that's all