LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[null]

First of all, how the flying fuck does this thread move so fast. I just got back from laundry. :c

@Fairheartstrife:

lol no but really, as much as you'd like to scream otherwise, Aeris is not stupid. This is the same chick that runs around the slums like she owns the place, comes up with the plan to rescue Tifa, and has insight into Cloud's mental problems with very little to go on. There's really nothing to suggest she's an idiot aside from your own personal bias against the character.

I think it's pretty obvious she knew Sephiroth was after her -- yes, she was being led to the city by her heritage, but the guy had just tried to kill her via Cloud, I'M PRETTY SURE A LIGHT WENT ON SOMEWHERE.

And like Crack said, Aeris is not the type of person to put others in danger. Splitting the team up is a pretty stupid move because then Sephiroth could have just picked them off easier (possibly aided by PsychoSleeperAgent!Cloud). They simply didn't have the strength at the time to beat him -- and that still wouldn't have solved the problem of Meteor. The point is, she knew what she was doing was dangerous, and why would she risk the lives of the entire team when it was a mission that really, only she could do?

For realz. Everyone's acting like she walked into Mordor or something.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Any place where Sephiroth could be waiting in the wings IS MORDOR!

 

[Fairheartstrife]

First of all, how the flying fuck does this thread move so fast. I just got back from laundry. :c

@Fairheartstrife:

lol no but really, as much as you'd like to scream otherwise, Aeris is not stupid. This is the same chick that runs around the slums like she owns the place, comes up with the plan to rescue Tifa, and has insight into Cloud's mental problems with very little to go on. There's really nothing to suggest she's an idiot aside from your own personal bias against the character.

I think it's pretty obvious she knew Sephiroth was after her -- yes, she was being led to the city by her heritage, but the guy had just tried to kill her via Cloud, I'M PRETTY SURE A LIGHT WENT ON SOMEWHERE.

And like Crack said, Aeris is not the type of person to put others in danger. Splitting the team up is a pretty stupid move because then Sephiroth could have just picked them off easier (possibly aided by PsychoSleeperAgent!Cloud). They simply didn't have the strength at the time to beat him -- and that still wouldn't have solved the problem of Meteor. The point is, she knew what she was doing was dangerous, and why would she risk the lives of the entire team when it was a mission that really, only she could do?

**eyeroll** First off, this shit doesn't get me mad. Second, please point out where I said Aerith was stupid. She's not. But, yes, going off to the Forgotten City by herself is fucking stupid. PERIOD. This is not about her protecting people. Unless you can show me somewhere that I missed that says she KNEW Sephiroth was waiting for her, then that claim is bs. She did not know she was going to face death. At all. She fucking SMILES when she sees Cloud--who moments before was trying to kill her (again). This is not a "Oh, I told you not to come" moment. So wtf?

Beside that little fact, the team risked their lives the whole damn time she's known them, so cut the martyr shit.

Because Aeris is not the type to put people in danger...? "Hey, yeah, see those Turks. I want out of here, so kick their asses for me. Jump the rafters? Fuck you, boy. Fight." Yeah....okay...

If my bias is discoloring my logic, then your 'adoration' of her is coloring yours. It is stupid to go off alone. This is checking the cellar in the dark stupid, and everyone fucking knows it.

 

[null]

Any place where Sephiroth could be waiting in the wings IS MORDOR!

 

[Zee]

 

[Dashell]

Am I the only one who thinks these things are creepy looking?

You are not.

OMG RIKUXSORA IS CANON! I KNEW IT!!!! ♥

*high fives*

Because Aeris is not the type to put people in danger...? "Hey, yeah, see those Turks. I want out of here, so kick their asses for me. Jump the rafters? Fuck you, boy. Fight." Yeah....okay...

If my bias is discoloring my logic, then your 'adoration' of her is coloring yours. It is stupid to go off alone. This is checking the cellar in the dark stupid, and everyone fucking knows it.

oh god what is this? I don't even.... you just wait until I get home

 

[looneymoon]

OMG RIKUXSORA IS CANON! I KNEW IT!!!! ♥

THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING TOO OMG.

<3

 

[Dashell]

Alex if you read this, I'm sorry, I'm in a really bad mood but...

Cloud was her friend, her beloved &#8212; a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.

I see friend. I see beloved (boyfriend), I see important, and I see protected. No mother. Since Cloud mistakes Aerith for Mrs. Strife while nearly dead in AC and ACC, it is important to note that Aerith does not see herself as a mother figure, and in fact gets a bit annoyed that Cloud makes that mistake. ... In addition, &#8216;beloved&#8217; is a translation of the word &#8216;koibito.&#8217; Beloved is one word used, because it's one sided. However, other two sided words have also been used, like sweetheart, implying a mutual but chaste relationship, or even lover, which is not so chaste at all. This most interesting of words seems to have mutual romantic implications to some.

1. Why would Aerith say "Cloud was her son" or something... I mean WTF?
2. What happened to, "It just means nice lady?" and if sweetheart NOW means a mutual love... well shit, what about the one in Reunion Files?

No seriously, gtg now...

 

[Fairheartstrife]

oh god what is this? I don't even.... you just wait until I get home

Make it quick, woman. I got a busy few days ahead of me and I won't have a lot of time to play. This has been fun this week though. :hugs LTD thread:

 

[Dashell]

No I gtg somewhere, I'll respond when I get back, sorry

 

[Zee]

This is not about her protecting people. Unless you can show me somewhere that I missed that says she KNEW Sephiroth was waiting for her, then that claim is bs. She did not know she was going to face death. At all.

Having the impossible foresight to know you're going to die and knowing you're stepping into a dangerous situation where death is possible are two different things. Are you clear which one we're talking about?

She fucking SMILES when she sees Cloud--who moments before was trying to kill her (again). This is not a "Oh, I told you not to come" moment. So wtf?

Oh, I agree. In the .5 seconds she had between seeing Cloud and Sephiroth sticking her, she should have taken a huge breath and berated him for following her, thus leaving him with the fondest memory of her ever.

Beside that little fact, the team risked their lives the whole damn time she's known them, so cut the martyr shit.

Who's saying she was a martyr? All I'm saying is she made the best decision she could for everyone considering the circumstances.

Because Aeris is not the type to put people in danger...? "Hey, yeah, see those Turks. I want out of here, so kick their asses for me. Jump the rafters? Fuck you, boy. Fight." Yeah....okay...

That argument would be valid if you completely ignored the conversation beforehand -- which you have. She asks the guy with the 100lbs sword if he's a mercenary and if she can hire him to escort her home. He agrees. That's like saying someone who calls the cops for help with an attempted assault is mindlessly throwing them into danger.

If my bias is discoloring my logic, then your 'adoration' of her is coloring yours. It is stupid to go off alone. This is checking the cellar in the dark stupid, and everyone fucking knows it.

Language, missy. Constant curses do not a valid argument make.

Besides, I'm fully aware of Aeris' flaws. There's no denying she can be thoughtless when it comes to people's feelings and likes to run off, flipping her middle finger at Cloud while she does so, but that doesn't change the fact that what she did does not necessarily classify as stupid. She risked one life rather than several. It's actually pretty logical.

 

[Celes Chere]

I KEEP THANKING BOTH FHS AND ZEE

MY BRAIN IS SO CONFUSED

 

[Makoeyes987]

I seriously don't see how anyone can defend Aerith going to the Forgotten City alone.

I'm sure if someone interviewed Aerith right now and asked her, "If you could do over 1 thing in your life during FFVII, what would it be?"

She'd probably answer with, "You know...maybe going off by myself wasn't the best idea in retrospect...it was kinda dumb, you know~."

She fucked up. It was a bad choice, regardless of how you try to rationalize or explain it. It was dumb. They were traveling as a group for a reason. She made a mistake that cost her, her life. It happens.

 

[Zee]

But Mako, again, you're speaking with the perception of someone who already knows how it goes down. That's not what I'm arguing here. I believe the fact is recklessly endangering a group of people is a far less forgiving action than endangering yourself.

It's almost a no win scenario here. If she had stayed with the team she would have risked the team's lives and Cloud's sanity. Going off on her own got her killed. To be perfectly honest, if the best possible outcome involved only her dying, I think she'd be okay with that.

Besides, we're all forgetting that if Aeris had found the magic solution and lived, then no one would have been able to move the lifestream when Holy failed, and they'd all be fucked anyway.

 

[Celes Chere]

So Aerith going off isn't brave... it's dumb?

Wat.

Can it be a combination of both? X_x Because I admired her going off on her own, while it's not the best idea. It's like what Yuna did in FFX.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not saying she wasn't brave. Of course she was brave. But bravery and stupidity can go hand in hand.

Yeah, I understand I'm speaking in hindsight and hindsight is always 20/20. But the fact is, is that, it's common sense to know that you take a huge risk to your safety when you decide to go it alone and break from the safety of the group. Everyone in Cloud's group knew just how lethal Sephiroth was, and that his goal was the Black Materia/summoning Meteor. Aerith knew that Sephiroth had gained the knowledge of the Cetra thanks to his dive in the lifestream. She honestly should've known that her going off alone to pray for Holy would put a huge target on her chest. Either she underestimated Sephiroth or overestimated herself.

Going it alone will get you killed. Safety in numbers and all that. She made a mistake. It doesn't make her a bad person or anything. But it was a bad move. Sephiroth chekmated her. If she had stayed with the group and tried to pray for Holy with them watching her back, she would've stood a better chance in living and succeeding. No plan is perfect but some plans have higher success probabilities than others.

In terms of the Lifestream, who knows what would've happened and if there was a way to solve that new problem Sephiroth created. But in terms of Aerith going off alone or staying. The better option was to stay.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Having the impossible foresight to know you're going to die and knowing you're stepping into a dangerous situation where death is possible are two different things. Are you clear which one we're talking about?

You are aware that you claiming she didn't bring the others as a safety measure to prevent their deaths and then saying "well, she didn't KNOW she was gonna die. It was a maybe thing" is a bit of a wtf.

She was protecting them from what then, if not death? Please enlighten me.

Oh, I agree. In the .5 seconds she had between seeing Cloud and Sephiroth sticking her, she should have taken a huge breath and berated him for following her, thus leaving him with the fondest memory of her ever.

His last memory of her is her telling him not to have a mental breakdown. So much better. That or his trying to kill her... Not sure which is the cozier memory.

But the point was she smiled. There was no frown, no worried look. They had time for a smile (which narratively I know was intended to make her death all the more 'shocking') but if she really hadn't wanted him to follow, then they would have shown something akin to fear/disappointment/anger, whatever. In fact, doesn't she say in ACC "You came for me, that's all that matters..."

Sounds to me like her mind-raping Cloud and telling him where she was going was breadcrumb "damsel" shit. You're right, she is a clever girl. <-- (This is me being sarcastic for those that need it pointed out)

Who's saying she was a martyr? All I'm saying is she made the best decision she could for everyone considering the circumstances.

Initially, I believe the argument was that she left on her own because Cloudy-boy had tried to beat the Cetra out of her. NOW she's making the best decision for the group and not high-tailing it for her own safety? Okay...sure, why not.

So, let me see if I have everything so far. Aerith thinks her teammates are incompetent and can't help her. She leaves to save them from 'something bad that maybe could possibly happen', and not because Cloud is psycho. Why would you tell a psycho where you were going after all...

All right, got it.

That argument would be valid if you completely ignored the conversation beforehand -- which you have. She asks the guy with the 100lbs sword if he's a mercenary and if she can hire him to escort her home. He agrees. That's like saying someone who calls the cops for help with an attempted assault is mindlessly throwing them into danger.

Language, missy. Constant curses do not a valid argument make.

Besides, I'm fully aware of Aeris' flaws. There's no denying she can be thoughtless when it comes to people's feelings and likes to run off, flipping her middle finger at Cloud while she does so, but that doesn't change the fact that what she did does not necessarily classify as stupid. She risked one life rather than several. It's actually pretty logical.

Repeat: I never said Aerith was stupid. I said running off to the Forgotten City ALONE is fucking stupid.

Also 'she risked one life rather than several' is till treading on martyr territory. Either she had confidence in her teammates or she didn't. (obviously, the latter as she went to save them all...)

Her intentions are good, noble even, but the action itself is damn stupid.

 

[Zee]

Holy word twist, Batman!

So, let me see if I have everything so far. Aerith thinks her teammates are incompetent and can't help her. She leaves to save them from 'something bad that maybe could possibly happen', and not because Cloud is psycho. Why would you tell a psycho where you were going after all...

lmao WHERE DID I EVEN SAY ANY OF THIS. See, this is the point at which what is actually said and what you are reading take a huge split.

First of all, why can't it be both? Leaving because Cloud is a threat to her does not negate the fact that purposely leading her teammates into danger would be a dick move. Sephiroth is specifically after her. He used Cloud against her. The easiest way to remove the threat of Sephiroth from the team, at least temporarily, is to remove herself.

But the point was she smiled. There was no frown, no worried look. They had time for a smile (which narratively I know was intended to make her death all the more 'shocking') but if she really hadn't wanted him to follow, then they would have shown something akin to fear/disappointment/anger, whatever. In fact, doesn't she say in ACC "You came for me, that's all that matters..."

I can't believe I'm actually having an argument about her smiling, but I always figured it's because she was happy Cloud cared enough to find her. Whether or not she would have chided him for following her we'll never know. Besides, this is supposed to flow the the narrative of "unfreezing her smile". "Unfreezing her shocked, horrified face" just doesn't work the same way.

Also 'she risked one life rather than several' is till treading on martyr territory.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

[null]

I'm not saying she wasn't brave. Of course she was brave. But bravery and stupidity can go hand in hand.

Yeah, I understand I'm speaking in hindsight and hindsight is always 20/20. But the fact is, is that, it's common sense to know that you take a huge risk to your safety when you decide to go it alone and break from the safety of the group. Everyone in Cloud's group knew just how lethal Sephiroth was, and that his goal was the Black Materia/summoning Meteor. Aerith knew that Sephiroth had gained the knowledge of the Cetra thanks to his dive in the lifestream. She honestly should've known that her going off alone to pray for Holy would put a huge target on her chest. Either she underestimated Sephiroth or overestimated herself.

Going it alone will get you killed. Safety in numbers and all that. She made a mistake. It doesn't make her a bad person or anything. But it was a bad move. Sephiroth chekmated her. If she had stayed with the group and tried to pray for Holy with them watching her back, she would've stood a better chance in living and succeeding. No plan is perfect but some plans have higher success probabilities than others.

In terms of the Lifestream, who knows what would've happened and if there was a way to solve that new problem Sephiroth created. But in terms of Aerith going off alone or staying. The better option was to stay.

One more time, with feeling:

THE GROUP WAS THERE.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Holy word twist, Batman!
lmao WHERE DID I EVEN SAY ANY OF THIS. See, this is the point at which what is actually said and what you are reading take a huge split.

Same place I said Aerith was stupid, apparently.

First of all, why can't it be both? Leaving because Cloud is a threat to her does not negate the fact that purposely leading her teammates into danger would be a dick move.

She TELLS Cloud where she is GOING. Yes, she leads them into danger, even more than if they'd gone together, because now they're in a hurry to try and reach her. She would have to know that they'd go after her. I mean, maybe not Cloud--who DIDN'T want to, but the others. You can't tell me that she was ignorant to that.

Sephiroth is specifically after her. He used Cloud against her. The easiest way to remove the threat of Sephiroth from the team, at least temporarily, is to remove herself.

Yeah, her dead sure removed Sephiroth as a threat. Good call.

I can't believe I'm actually having an argument about her smiling, but I always figured it's because she was happy Cloud cared enough to find her.

The Cloud that is a threat to her that she's running away from...okay...

Whether or not she would have chided him for following her we'll never know. Besides, this is supposed to flow the the narrative of "unfreezing her smile". "Unfreezing her shocked, horrified face" just doesn't work the same way.

As I said in my post, narratively the smile is for impact. However, had they wanted to imply that Aerith was truly going off on her own and didn't want them to follow, they could have shown something to that.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

You pick: a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause.

or: a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.

Either one works for the 'running off to save the team' Aerith.

Edit: Annnnnnnd I'm off. Good game, Zee. This was fun.

**waves** Later, everyone!

 

[Makoeyes987]

One more time, with feeling:

THE GROUP WAS THERE.

By "there" you mean the same area. Yes. They were.

But they were NOT next to Aerith, watching her back or protecting her. They were more like spectators who had literally just found Aerith and found her on her knees one minute, and then ran through with a sword the next. The only one who was "there" was Cloud, and he was being mind controlled to kill her.

That's a big fucking difference.

 

[null]

By "there" you mean the same area. Yes. They were.

But they were NOT next to Aerith, watching her back or protecting her. They were more like spectators who had literally just found Aerith and found her on her knees one minute, and then ran through with a sword the next. The only one who was "there" was Cloud, and he was being mind controlled to kill her.

That's a big fucking difference.

If you apply your logic to the rest of the game then everyone is stupid. If it was obvious and she should have known, why didn't the group attempt to take up defensive positions immediately when they found her praying, knowing Sephiroth was in the local area? Why pack swords, spears and teeth against WEAPONs? Wouldn't a smart, sane person know to bring an army against those things?

If you gloss over any of those insane risks that fantasy characters regularly take then you must think most fantasy characters are stupid* or you are being a huuuuuuuuuuuge hypocrite.


* Except Commander Shepard of course, for obvious reasons.

 

[null]

**waves** Later, everyone!

Later duuuuuuuuuuude!!!

 

[Ite]

Aeris went off alone because she realized that Cloud, as a sleeper agent, was the biggest obstacle to her success, which is why she was all like "Don't follow me!" in his dreams. If Cloud hadn't been obsessed with finding her, she probably would have prayed for Holy in secret, and then come back to everyone.

If Cloud hadn't been in the party, Aeris probably would have had no problem tugging everyone along with her. But a) Aeris didn't quite understand how dangerous Cloud was, she just knew that he could be manipulated by Sephiroth and b) She's not going to start a fucking mutiny, throw Cloud in a hole and continue the mission. She liked the guy, but he was a liability. Which means the party was a liability, since it was Cloud's army. It was safer to go it alone that with them.

The reason she dies at all is because Cloud led everyone - including Sephiroth - there. I suppose that's the source of your guilt right thar.

I also find it ironic that when you meet Aeris, she wants Cloud to be close to her, but despite her efforts to distance herself, Cloud being close to her is the reason she dies!

This's been fun, I'm peacing for a few hours. This LTD thing is like a goddamn full-time job.

 

[null]

Get back in here, we ain't done with you brotha. Cloud being close to her wasn't the reason she died.