LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Alessa Gillespie]

I think I would just like to say: if it took the party two whole discs to go after Sephiroth and kick his spirit ass why the fuck is everyone like 'AERIF SHULD HAVE BROUGHT GROUP WIF HER'. YEAH BECAUSE IMO I AM SURE THAT THE GROUP COULD HAVE TOTALLY KILLED HIM AND SAVED AERITH FROM DYING WITHOUT THE PLAYER LOSING LIKE HALF THE PARTY.

jesus christ as stupid as some people think, that's like saying 'SHINJIROU ARAGAKI SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT MINATO WITH HIM WHEN HE GOT SHOT TWICE HE COULD HAVE TOTALLY KICKED TAKAYA'S ASS'. Yes but this is goddamn plot. You don't call a character's choices during goddamn plot bullet scene stupid because that character needs to die for emotional impact. You don't think Maya Amano is a retard for dying at the end of P2:IS because she was supposed to fucking die. You don't think 'Harry Mason should have carried a gun with him during SH3!' because he's killed in the middle by a monster.

It's like you guys are being plot-tarded on purpose or something.

 

[minimosey]

But the point was she smiled. There was no frown, no worried look. They had time for a smile (which narratively I know was intended to make her death all the more 'shocking') but if she really hadn't wanted him to follow, then they would have shown something akin to fear/disappointment/anger, whatever. In fact, doesn't she say in ACC "You came for me, that's all that matters..."

I don't see how the ACC quote reflects on if he should/shouldn't have come. She says that in response to his guilt over her death. What else should be said? "You shouldn't have come"? "Way to screw up, hero"? She's acknowledging that he did everything he could to protect her two years after the event. Even if she had been upset, she'd probably say the same thing two years later.

And I don't see why she shouldn't smile at that moment, no matter how worried or upset she'd been before or if she's thinking that Cloud needs a lecture later--she'd just finished her prayer.

I'm pretty sure that was a big deal to her.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Aeris went off alone because she realized that Cloud, as a sleeper agent, was the biggest obstacle to her success, which is why she was all like "Don't follow me!" in his dreams. If Cloud hadn't been obsessed with finding her, she probably would have prayed for Holy in secret, and then come back to everyone.

Uh, you do remember Sephiroth was in the same dream and basically said, "lol dat bitch is dead, wanna watch?" Sephiroth was onto her from the beginning.

If Cloud hadn't been in the party, Aeris probably would have had no problem tugging everyone along with her. But a) Aeris didn't quite understand how dangerous Cloud was, she just knew that he could be manipulated by Sephiroth and b) She's not going to start a fucking mutiny, throw Cloud in a hole and continue the mission. She liked the guy, but he was a liability. Which means the party was a liability, since it was Cloud's army. It was safer to go it alone that with them.

The reason she dies at all is because Cloud led everyone - including Sephiroth - there. I suppose that's the source of your guilt right thar.

Hmm...She's thinking of interfering? She will be a difficult one, don't you think? We must stop that girl soon.

Cloud totally led Sephiroth to Aerith and revealed her plan. Yup.

I also find it ironic that when you meet Aeris, she wants Cloud to be close to her, but despite her efforts to distance herself, Cloud being close to her is the reason she dies!

This's been fun, I'm peacing for a few hours. This LTD thing is like a goddamn full-time job.

Good job being wrong, its tiring.

I think I would just like to say: if it took the party two whole discs to go after Sephiroth and kick his spirit ass why the fuck is everyone like 'AERIF SHULD HAVE BROUGHT GROUP WIF HER'. YEAH BECAUSE IMO I AM SURE THAT THE GROUP COULD HAVE TOTALLY KILLED HIM AND SAVED AERITH FROM DYING WITHOUT THE PLAYER LOSING LIKE HALF THE PARTY.

jesus christ as stupid as some people think, that's like saying 'SHINJIROU ARAGAKI SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT MINATO WITH HIM WHEN HE GOT SHOT TWICE HE COULD HAVE TOTALLY KICKED TAKAYA'S ASS'. Yes but this is goddamn plot. You don't call a character's choices during goddamn plot bullet scene stupid because that character needs to die for emotional impact. You don't think Maya Amano is a retard for dying at the end of P2:IS because she was supposed to fucking die. You don't think 'Harry Mason should have carried a gun with him during SH3!' because he's killed in the middle by a monster.

It's like you guys are being plot-tarded on purpose or something.

...Is all I have to say to that.

Narrative reasoning =/= In-universe reasoning. No shit Aerith had to die to progress the story. Who the hell denied that?

Within the framework of the narrative though, it was a BAD DECISION. Aerith underestimated Sephiroth's knowledge of her plan and got shanked. It was a bad decision to go off alone in hopes of solving it for herself. It was a stupid move. And that's okay! It happens in fiction ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Unless you think within the framework of the universe of FFVII it was a smart move for Aerith to get herself brutally killed. Then by all means, do carry on.

Could the party have saved her? Who the fuck knows, but I can guarantee that the success probability of Aerith getting shanked with party protection vs. no protection at all is lower. I dunno, call me crazy for thinking it'd be easier to kill one person alone, vs having to go through a group. Especially considering this ISN'T THE REAL SEPHIROTH AND JUST JENOVA ANYWAYS.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

...Is all I have to say to that.

Narrative reasoning =/= In-universe reasoning. No shit Aerith had to die to progress the story. Who the hell denied that?

Within the framework of the narrative though, it was a BAD DECISION. Aerith underestimated Sephiroth's knowledge of her plan and got shanked. It was a bad decision to go off alone in hopes of solving it for herself. It was a stupid move. And that's okay! It happens in fiction ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Unless you think within the framework of the universe of FFVII it was a smart move for Aerith to get herself brutally killed. Then by all means, do carry on.

NAISU HOTLINKING

by that logic, it was a bad decision for Harry Mason to not carry a gun with him at all times, a bad decision for Saki Konishi to ever talk to a police guy, a bad decision for Duncan to ever stand by King Cailin, a bad decision for Minato to die for your sins like Jebus, etc. Except I sincerely doubt that anyone would think their decisions were stupid, so calling Aerith's decision for not realizing Sephy would be following her is odd at best.

 

[null]

Again, it was no more stupid than sicking a talking dog on a WEAPON. I guess Mako thinks FF7 is a story about derpers who Forrest Gumped their way to victory.

Also what Tina said.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If you apply your logic to the rest of the game then everyone is stupid. If it was obvious and she should have known, why didn't the group attempt to take up defensive positions immediately when they found her praying, knowing Sephiroth was in the local area? Why pack swords, spears and teeth against WEAPONs? Wouldn't a smart, sane person know to bring an army against those things?

If you gloss over any of those insane risks that fantasy characters regularly take then you must think most fantasy characters are stupid* or you are being a huuuuuuuuuuuge hypocrite.


* Except Commander Shepard of course, for obvious reasons.

Didn't see this reply until just now.

Why? Because Cloud told them to stay back. They obviously underestimated Sephiroth as well. You think I believe that all the characters never made a dumb choice throughout FFVII too?

...And where the fuck are the heroes gonna get an army to help them tackle WEAPONs? That makes no sense.

And when did they sic a talking dog to fight a WEAPON? Are you talking about Red XIII, cause again. That makes no sense either. Red XIII's a fucking four legged warrior who can fucking shoot glowing red energy beams and blow shit up. The fact he was able to help fight Bahamut Tremor without any trouble should answer whether or not him helping the fight was a good idea or not.

NAISU HOTLINKING

by that logic, it was a bad decision for Harry Mason to not carry a gun with him at all times, a bad decision for Saki Konishi to ever talk to a police guy, a bad decision for Duncan to ever stand by King Cailin, a bad decision for Minato to die for your sins like Jebus, etc. Except I sincerely doubt that anyone would think their decisions were stupid, so calling Aerith's decision for not realizing Sephy would be following her is odd at best.

You saw nothing.

Harry Mason's hardly the pinnacle of common sense. He probably should've carried a gun since he obviously had the foresight to keep some of that Aglaophotis with Cheryl in case anymore crazy shit happened and she got possessed. If he could concieve of such a contingency then maybe he should've thought of carrying a gun too.

WTF, apparently characters within stories can't make bad decisions? They're all perfect? ROTFMLAO. Okay then. Villains and heroes do it all the fucking time.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

You saw nothing.

Harry Mason's hardly the pinnacle of common sense. He probably should've carried a gun since he obviously had the foresight to keep some of that Aglaophotis with Cheryl in case anymore crazy shit happened and she got possessed. If he could concieve of such a contingency then maybe he should've thought of carrying a gun too.

WTF, apparently characters within stories can't make bad decisions? They're all perfect? ROTFMLAO. Okay then. Villains and heroes do it all the fucking time.

OH U

Wow because I totally said that. I just said that y'all are saying Aerith was apparently making a stupid decision by going to the Forgotten City without realizing Sephiroth was there, but don't acknowledge or handwave other stupid decisions done by characters like Tifa never hinting something might be wrong with her memory of Cloud being there or her ditching saving the world to take care of him or Shera not telling Cid that there really was shit wrong with his rocket, or Cloud deciding to go try and save Aerith after he just beat the shit out of her (considering he was five seconds from cutting her into two Aeriths), or, you know, any of that shit.

 

[Makoeyes987]

OH U

Wow because I totally said that. I just said that y'all are saying Aerith was apparently making a stupid decision by going to the Forgotten City without realizing Sephiroth was there, but don't acknowledge or handwave other stupid decisions done by characters like Tifa never hinting something might be wrong with her memory of Cloud being there or her ditching saving the world to take care of him or Shera not telling Cid that there really was shit wrong with his rocket, or Cloud deciding to go try and save Aerith after he just beat the shit out of her (considering he was five seconds from cutting her into two Aeriths), or, you know, any of that shit.

Read my previous posts.

You think I believe that all the characters never made a dumb choice throughout FFVII too?

Other characters made stupid or questionable decisions too! No one's perfect!

Yeah they made dumb decisions too. Good job calling a spade a spade there. I'm just doing the same thing.

Look at Aerith's intent. Aerith did not intend to sacrifice herself and die. She intended to go there, pray for Holy, come back, and save the party a shit load of trouble. There were two problems with this plan. She did not consider Sephiroth, who had the same knowledge of the Cetra, reading through her plan and heading her off at the pass. The second mistake, was that going by yourself to do ANYTHING is inherently dangerous in and of itself.

Aerith is not perfect. She is not Jesus. She did not anticipate her death or expect to die. Therefore she got tricked. Sephiroth outsmarted her and turned her own heroism and risky behavior against her. That's just the fact of the story.

 

[null]

See, me reducing Red to a talking dog is just like you reducing Aerith to a helpless damsel. Red can shoot laser beams? Aerith can fucking turn invincible to EVERYTHING and restore all her HP/MP, on top of being the best spellcaster in the game and packing lord knows what materia.

She crossed continents on her own and fought her way down to the Forgotten City. She did not get killed alone, she got killed with a group of allies nearby (and how were they supposed to protect her, have Cait Sith sit on her head while she prayed to take the blow?) It really was not a suicidal or incredibly lame brained idea to strike off on her own, any more than it was suicidal to attack a Godzilla-sized robot with swords and spears. It's fantasy. Characters do brave things.

The group does crazier, braver things in many other parts of the game. The fact that Aerith was killed was entirely due to the power of plot, and not her being stupid.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Look at Aerith's intent. Aerith did not intend to sacrifice herself and die. She intended to go there, pray for Holy, come back, and save the party a shit load of trouble. There were two problems with this plan. She did not consider Sephiroth, who had the same knowledge of the Cetra, reading through her plan and heading her off at the pass. The second mistake, was that going by yourself to do ANYTHING is inherently dangerous in and of itself.

Aerith is not perfect. She is not Jesus. She did not anticipate her death or expect to die. Therefore she got tricked. Sephiroth outsmarted her and turned her own heroism and risky behavior against her. That's just the fact of the story.

I know Aerith did not anticipate her death. So why the fuck is everyone like 'SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN SHE WAS IN DANGER'. She didn't. She made a mistake, yeah, but that doesn't make the decision stupid in of itself. Did Cloud deciding to go to save her when his mind was screwed up so badly make his decision stupid? No, but it probably was a mistake.

idk what you're up with saying AERITH IS NOT PERFECT because no one is arguing that she is.

 

[null]

Here's a great example of stupidity in fantasy: Jedi never bothering to think their powers through to their logical conclusion. Why would Yoda ever bother to use a lightsaber when he can just force smash enemies instantly like he did to Palpatine's guards? Why do Jedi chase people when they could just force grab them?

 

[Makoeyes987]

See, me reducing Red to a talking dog is just like you reducing Aerith to a helpless damsel. Red can shoot laser beams? Aerith can fucking turn invincible to EVERYTHING and restore all her HP/MP, on top of being the best spellcaster in the game and packing lord knows what materia.

Maybe she should've did that before praying for Holy then.

Sorry, but I'm gonna call it like I see it. Unless you believe Aerith intended to die (which she didn't), Sephiroth outsmarted her and killed her. The end.

She crossed continents on her own and fought her way down to the Forgotten City. She did not get killed alone, she got killed with a group of allies nearby (and how were they supposed to protect her, have Cait Sith sit on her head while she prayed to take the blow?) It really was not a suicidal or incredibly lame brained idea to strike off on her own, any more than it was suicidal to attack a Godzilla-sized robot with swords and spears. It's fantasy. Characters do brave things.

Cause she totally didn't have materia and shit helping her, right? Okay...? Who the hell called her a damsel in distress? I said she made a dumb decision.

Again. I'm pretty positive that Aerith stood a better chance at living with someone helping her fight, versus her fighting alone. I dunno, call me crazy. But I just think there's such a thing as safety in numbers. I don't need to go into specifics to explain a basic fundamental principle as that.

If you're trying to stand in the way of a fucker who can impale a Midgar Zolom on a tree, and he's serious about slamming a Meteor into the planet, yes. Striking off by yourself is pretty damn reckless and not the smartest plan. Sorry, but that's just the reality of it. I don't know how you intend to justify it, but Aerith is just one of many characters in media who did stupid things with good intentions. Its fiction 101.

The group does crazier, braver things in many other parts of the game. The fact that Aerith was killed was entirely due to the power of plot, and not her being stupid.

Yup. And...? Sorry, but you're not making any sort of argument or justification here. Aerith died thanks to her plan. Clearly she underestimated Sephiroth's knowledge and her plan didn't quite go as she intended, did it?

I know Aerith did not anticipate her death. So why the fuck is everyone like 'SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN SHE WAS IN DANGER'. She didn't. She made a mistake, yeah, but that doesn't make the decision stupid in of itself. Did Cloud deciding to go to save her when his mind was screwed up so badly make his decision stupid? No, but it probably was a mistake.

idk what you're up with saying AERITH IS NOT PERFECT because no one is arguing that she is.

YES IT WAS DUMB. Aerith did not think through it enough. You've already admitted it was a mistake. Mistakes are avoided with the proper information and reasoning. If Aerith had not forgotten/underestimated/etc Sephiroth knew the same shit she knew, maybe she would've paused and thought of a Plan B in regards to going it alone. Villains use a character's failings that result from alturism against them all the fucking time.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

YES IT WAS DUMB. Aerith did not think through it enough. You've already admitted it was a mistake. Mistakes are avoided with the proper information and reasoning. If Aerith had not forgotten/underestimated/etc Sephiroth knew the same shit she knew, maybe she would've paused and thought of a Plan B in regards to going it alone. Villains use a character's failings that result from alturism against them all the fucking time.

then do you agree that Cloud going after her was also fucking retarded or no?

also Sephiroth is pretty fucking stupid for not killing her before she finished praying for Holy. Imo.

 

[crack]

Again. I'm pretty positive that Aerith stood a better chance at living with someone helping her fight, versus her fighting alone. I dunno, call me crazy. But I just think there's such a thing as safety in numbers. I don't need to go into specifics to explain a basic fundamental principle as that.

Aerith would have stood a better chance at living if someone helped her fight; but we have to consider that rest of her teammates would have had an increased risk in dying as well.

also Sephiroth is pretty fucking stupid for not killing her before she finished praying for Holy. Imo.

I agree with this.

 

[Makoeyes987]

then do you agree that Cloud going after her was also fucking retarded or no?

You mean when Cloud raised his hand up to whoever your party members were at the Forgotten Capital, and he just went to the alter alone to see her, while they all waited several yards away?

Yeah, that was dumb too. They thought they were safe. If they knew Sephiroth was in the area too, they should've stuck together. Cloud and the others underestimated the lethality of Sephiroth and just how serious he was about everything.

Does that make it Aerith's fault she died? No. Does that make it Cloud fault she died? No. But bad decisions are bad decisions. They're human and sometimes humans do stupid things.

Aerith would have stood a better chance at living if someone helped her fight; but we have to consider that rest of her teammates would have had an increased risk in dying as well.

No plan is perfect. They all stood a risk of dying anyways since they were going against Shinra, and Sephiroth at the same time. It'd be the same risk as usual. Death was a risk since the very beginning, when they planted that bomb on the reactor.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Does that make it Aerith's fault she died? No. Does that make it Cloud fault she died? No. But bad decisions are bad decisions. They're human and sometimes humans do stupid things.

So bad decisions=stupid decisions? So because it's possible that not getting enough vitamin D as a child is a cause of my MS, the fact that no one encouraged me to go outside and I didn't go outside as frequently as I should have a stupid decision? Or is it rather a bad decision? Or was it perhaps no real fault of my own and just a dumb twist of fate?

THE WORLD MAY NEVER KNOW.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So bad decisions=stupid decisions? So because it's possible that not getting enough vitamin D as a child is a cause of my MS, the fact that no one encouraged me to go outside and I didn't go outside as frequently as I should have a stupid decision? Or is it rather a bad decision? Or was it perhaps no real fault of my own and just a dumb twist of fate?

THE WORLD MAY NEVER KNOW.

What the fuck, we aren't talking about medical conditions and the raising of children here!

And no, I wouldn't say that was a 'dumb decision' at all.

FYI, I'm not calling Aerith or any of the characters dumb. You can be smart and accidentally make a dumb decision due to circumstance or whatever.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think Aerith would have felt very guilty at the notion that she was putting people she cared deeply about in danger.

Which is probably one reason she went off alone. So it would be her burden alone.

Aerith going off on her own is fucking stupid. Period.

Regardles of circumstance...which brings me to: Oh, cut the bullshit with her running from Cloud. She VISITS him in his fucking dreams to TELL him where she is GOING. She tells him not to worry about his little episode and that she will COME BACK when it's all over.

Yeah, really fucking terrified.

If anything she was trying to protect Cloud from another breakdown. Not flee from him, FFS.

Also, she did NOT try and protect everyone from Sephiroth. She did NOT KNOW he was there. She went because she felt like she was being led there. She says this.

Noble intentions aside, her actions ultimately led to her death and these actions are, in fact, dumb.

I see it as a calculated risk- she figures she's on a time limit, she needs to get Holy prayed for, ASAP, and the rest of the group would just slow her down on the way. Things would have been safer, but slower, with company, though maybe she could have compromised.

Incidentally, I don't think the party could have directly stopped sephy from killing her had they come, just that their presence would have made it harder for him to get into position for the killing blow.

Alex if you read this, I'm sorry, I'm in a really bad mood but...

1. Why would Aerith say "Cloud was her son" or something... I mean WTF?
2. What happened to, "It just means nice lady?" and if sweetheart NOW means a mutual love... well shit, what about the one in Reunion Files?

No seriously, gtg now...

Well, as it turns out, Aerith has a reverse Oedipal complex, so when she calls Cloud her beloved, she means son.
In any case, Alex keeps falling into the trap of thinking Aerith counts here when Cloud thinks of her as 'Okaa-san' thoroughly killing any romantic mood, as if Zack hanging about wasn't enough there.

 

[null]

Maybe she should've did that before praying for Holy then.

Yeah, too bad it's temporary.

Sorry, but I'm gonna call it like I see it. Unless you believe Aerith intended to die (which she didn't), Sephiroth outsmarted her and killed her. The end.

Being outsmarted == you must have been stupid? Ho ho ho... I suppose you must think Gary Kasparov is a real dunce for losing a game of chess to supercomputer.

Cause she totally didn't have materia and shit helping her, right? Okay...? Who the hell called her a damsel in distress? I said she made a dumb decision.

*sigh* If she can turn invincible, restore her HP/MP, sit in the back row and hand out death by materia, then it wasn't such a dumb decision to go out on her own. She proved this by crossing half the planet and doing battle on her own on the way to the Forgotten City.

You are the one who is failing to justify how the party being present could have done anything save her from Sephiroth.

Again. I'm pretty positive that Aerith stood a better chance at living with someone helping her fight, versus her fighting alone. I dunno, call me crazy. But I just think there's such a thing as safety in numbers. I don't need to go into specifics to explain a basic fundamental principle as that.

So if I surround myself with a group of bodyguards, I'm safe from demigods dropping out of nowhere and impaling me.

If you're trying to stand in the way of a fucker who can impale a Midgar Zolom on a tree, and he's serious about slamming a Meteor into the planet, yes. Striking off by yourself is pretty damn reckless and not the smartest plan. Sorry, but that's just the reality of it. I don't know how you intend to justify it, but Aerith is just one of many characters in media who did stupid things with good intentions. Its fiction 101.

Really? Do you walk around all day looking up, in case a piano falls on you? If a ninja impales you from above while you take a dump, are you dumb for not paying attention? Aerith not watching for Sephiroth falling from the fucking sky does not qualify as stupidity or being outsmarted.

Again, either Cloud, Cid and Red XIII are flaming retards for attacking a WEAPON as a small group, or Aerith was brave and not stupid.

PICK ONE.

Yup. And...? Sorry, but you're not making any sort of argument or justification here. Aerith died thanks to her plan. Clearly she underestimated Sephiroth's knowledge and her plan didn't quite go as she intended, did it?

And you're justifying in any way, shape or form what the presence of the party would do to protect Aerith? You're really going to run with sitting Cait Sith on Aerith's head? Really?

You mean when Cloud raised his hand up to whoever your party members were at the Forgotten Capital, and he just went to the alter alone to see her, while they all waited several yards away?

Yeah, that was dumb too. They thought they were safe. If they knew Sephiroth was in the area too, they should've stuck together. Cloud and the others underestimated the lethality of Sephiroth and just how serious he was about everything.

Hey, I say they'd be idiots for sticking together because Sephiroth could kill them all at once. See wut I did thar?

Does that make it Aerith's fault she died? No. Does that make it Cloud fault she died? No. But bad decisions are bad decisions. They're human and sometimes humans do stupid things.

So it's not her fault but she made a dumb decision that directly led to her own death.

Mako, be aware that your posts are being recorded. You have a trail of stubbornness going back a few pages. It's solid proof that you're changing your stance on purpose, you sly dog you.

 

[Joker]

*blinkblink* I don't get how it's stupid to feel guilty that you were powerless to help your friends.

But okay.

You should. We have THAT conversation all the time.

It`s funny when a "outsider" mocks about Cloud, but then maybe he`s just more objective.

...uh huh.

And even if she brought the rest of the gang with her, it would haven't stopped Sephiroth from trying to kill her.

Which is why his retarded guilt is retarded.


edit: loltagclosing

 

[Dashell]

Zee said everything I was going to say to FHS so

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako, be aware that your posts are being recorded. You have a trail of stubbornness going back a few pages. It's solid proof that you're changing your stance on purpose, you sly dog you.

Fine, you win. Position rescinded.

Dumb is too loaded a word. She made a mistake. There you go.

 

[null]

How disappointing. I've seen you get in bed with Tres for days on end.

I guess it was a mistake in hindsight. Being in the correct spot to get impaled usually is.

 

[Dashell]

Dumb is too loaded a word. She made a mistake. There you go.

/end thread

 

[Max Payne]

Sorry, running from your superpowered teammates under possible pain of death is a DUMB MISTAKE. THAT'S RIGHT I SAID IT.

Everyone in the game made dumb mistakes ffs