LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Makoeyes987]

Guys, come on. They are clearly in a relationship of un-actualized, un-realized and un-revealed love. I mean, duhr, that's the BEST kind of love, and OF COURSE it's mutual. That's just a given, based on the aforementioned un-revealed. Just because they don't SHARE it with one another doesn't negate mutuality... I mean, look up the word mutual in the dictionary. It's right after Koibito--which is a SYNONYM for mutual. So, yeah, why are we arguing? It's pretty simple really.

Well, it's the type of love we have, so I can appreciate it. It's truly special. Just like you.

We may not share it, it may only be from my end, and hell, you may have only just heard about my confession in this post. But that doesn't make you my koibito any less. Which IS a synonym for mutual. No matter what.

We're together forever. Whether you know about it or not.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Well, it's the type of love we have, so I can appreciate it. It's truly special. Just like you.

We may not share it, it may only be from my end, and hell, you may have only just heard about my confession in this post. But that doesn't make you my koibito any less. Which IS a synonym for mutual. No matter what.

We're together forever. Whether you know about it or not.

Except you DID just reveal it, and in doing so--by the standards set in the LTD--I must take your revealed romantic feelings as rejection. How could you, Mako?!?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh God....no! What have I done?!

*kills himself with a spoon*

 

[Fairheartstrife]

*kills himself with a spoon*

Wait, wait, wait.... that's brilliant!!

If you are dead, then we are destined to love one another for eternity! Had you remained alive, then of course nothing would have worked out between us, but with you dead and our feelings unresolved that negates the reveal and therefore we are MEANT TO BE!!

**runs to find flowerfield**

 

[Ryushikaze]

The snark in this threat is quickly approaching critical levels.

So I shall instead sum up a very important point, and hope it sticks.

To be a koibito in the sense of mutuality, it is not enough for two people to 'just' mutually like each other. Similarly, a boy and girl who are mutually crushing on each other but do nothing about it are not boyfriend and girlfriend. It requires actualization.
Sans actualization, they are merely crushing on each other, and this is the sense of the other meaning of koibito.
Aerith never actualized anything with Cloud- even allowing, purely for the sake of discussion, that Cloud like her back, there simply was no actualization, no confirmation of any sort between them- and so context tells us it cannot be the 'first' manner, but must be the 'second' manner.

By comparison, everything in the overall context tells us that the way in which Tifa is a Koibito is that of the mutual essence, but even if we take it as the 'she is someone's beloved' (which is actually an aspect of the first manner, but hey, we seem to be having trouble with two definitions already) meaning, the whole of the evidence, including the confirmation of feelings for each other between Cloud and Tifa tells us more than enough about their relationship.

Which brings us back to the point about context. It matters. Take the whole of the context. Not bits and pieces in isolation. Discard the aberrant outlier if you must, but above all, make sure that your conclusion fits in the whole of the narrative, does not outright contradict its themes, does not require special pleading or exemptions, or anything that literally blatantly contradicts a simple fact. Above all, MAKE SENSE IN CONTEXT.

 

[Dashell]

And what's the relevance, and why are you doubting Cloud's awareness and sense of self then? What is your point, or did you have one?

That's the thing, I don't remember what my point was.

And I really hope you guys know I never said they were in a relationship... just the potential was there.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

My comp ate my post, this is much shorter:

@ KH
Clotis have been talking about the lack of romance in KH long before KH2, when the Clerii still insisted that this AU was a Cleris sanctuary of awesomelove.
With the advent of the second installment, the Clerii had a lot of backpedaling to do, especially since the presence of the two (C & A) was pretty much all they had to go on to begin with. Not only had the big-boobed one invaded their pink space, she was the embodiment fo Cloud's light and also the only one involved in the fight squaring off against the embodiment of his darkness, as well as the only one associated with his quest for the light and the whole shebang.

It's not a case of Clotis going "KH MATTERS NOW!!11" as you try (in vain) to make it seem. It is a case of us saying that "no, you were wrong, you continue to be wrong (such as the multiple lights bullshit) and this is WHY you're wrong".
Don't be butthurt because KH took your pink dreams and shat all over them. It's simply that even AUs fail to see the pink light. Discussions about KH2 have not revolved around the relevancy of KH, but more so the erroneous assumption that Cloud and Aeris share anythign romantic within that game. It became "a big deal" as you say precisely because the absence of Tifa had been taken as a cementing of the fact SE did not care for C/T and that it never existed. So when SE reveal that Tifa didn't make it due to time constraints and proceed to make her an integral part of Cloud's story, it is just downright hilarious.

So really, the fact that we pointed out the Clerii dreams seem to be nonsense does not in any way make us flip-floppers. Bullshit is bullshit no matter how much you stir and you're gonna be called on it.

on to koibito...

but the official version uses a word implying a relationship.

Mutual is a part of the definition.

I love how context is suddenly so relevant

Context has always been relevant, we were the ones screaming CONTEXT while Clerii plugged their ears and sang "lalala LOOOVE".
The fact that you do not grasp (or refuse to as then you would have no leg to stand on) the simple fact that context dictates meaning is what is embarrassing, and not as you said, the squabbles over koibito.
That has never changed.

For you to say that koibito in CoL in context of Aeris expressing her feelings for someone and for Nomura expressing a factual statement outsite the universe = the same as taking the English word 'sweetheart' and assigning the same meaning to it whether I say "Jane is a sweetheart" or "Jane is Joe's sweetheart". Are we to assign the same meaning because it's the same word being used for both?
If we refuse to hold "sweetheart" to that standard, why do so for "koibito"?

The fact that the same word is used does not give you a golden ticket past the context gates.

And since you seem to have changed your tune from relationship to UNREALIZED POTENTIAL, then how is it that you still maintain the definition of "mutual relationship" applies? Either Cloud is her beloved, or Aeris declares herself the other partner of an unrealized couple, a part of a supposed relationship of which the other partner is not aware exists (even if he does harbor his own feelings).
Which is it exactly? You can't even make up your mind.

But as Ryu said, this is irrelevant. For either way, Nomura describes Tifa as the one loved by Cloud and Aeris (in a novella that explores HER perspective) says Cloud is loved by HER.
Guess which one holds more weight even if you fuck context. Ja.

 

[Dashell]

And since you seem to have changed your tune from relationship to UNREALIZED POTENTIAL, then how is it that you still maintain the definition of "mutual relationship" applies? Either Cloud is her beloved, or Aeris declares herself the other partner of an unrealized couple, a part of a supposed relationship of which the other partner is not aware exists (even if he does harbor his own feelings).
Which is it exactly? You can't even make up your mind.

I realize I'm not Zee, but I'm pretty sure she kept bringing up the mutual context because that's what someone had told her at one point. She was mocking them, not really saying koibito can only have one meaning.

 

[Celes Chere]

When you have an admin named "Dupe Account" closing threads on the parallels between FFVII and FFXIII because of "a certain issue on how this topic started," after just two pages of civil discussion, you know the forum's given up the ghost.

WOW, wtf? I wonder what the 'issue' was with the thread. No-one's even being uncivilized there. Actually, there's a pretty nice discussion going on. Wow, there aren't enough face-palm photos out there to describe my current feeling on the matter. <=/

I think those arguments come from the fact that no one here gave a shit about KH until Tifa was in it.

Seriously? That's not true for me, and most Clotis that I've seen. O_o Maybe I 'hang' around the wrong crowd? You know, the not retarded ones? I never gave a shit about KH when it came to ANYTHING Final Fantasy, because it's AU and doesn't matter, and it never will! Tifa is Cloud's light imo, but who gives a rats ass, it's just KH. The only reason I ever debated about KH, was to prove a point and it never got across so, what a waste of time anyway, lol.

I love how context is suddenly so relevant

I rofl'd. XD

 

[Ryushikaze]

I realize I'm not Zee, but I'm pretty sure she kept bringing up the mutual context because that's what someone had told her at one point. She was mocking them, not really saying koibito can only have one meaning.

In which case, she's either only been told the simplified version- something I personally doubt- or is focusing on the simplified version instead of the more detailed nuanced version.
Hell, does no one remember 'rebuttable presumption?' Because I know I went over that more than once LONG before COLW

 

[Dashell]

WOW, wtf? I wonder what the 'issue' was with the thread. No-one's even being uncivilized there. Actually, there's a pretty nice discussion going on. Wow, there aren't enough face-palm photos out there to describe my current feeling on the matter. <=/

The issues was that Tres quoted PYT's posts from the private Clerith forum. I don't really think the topic needs to be closed but that was the issue...

And I remember my point with Cloud not being himself, Mako said he wasn't himself when Aerith died so I pointed out he wasn't himself when Zack died... don't really know what the point is of all that but yeah...

 

[Ryushikaze]

The issues was that Tres quoted PYT's posts from the private Clerith forum. I don't really think the topic needs to be closed but that was the issue...

And I remember my point with Cloud not being himself, Mako said he wasn't himself when Aerith died so I pointed out he wasn't himself when Zack died... don't really know what the point is of all that but yeah...

But he was still himself. He had not yet utterly lost himself. He was in a fog, so to speak, but he wasn't someone else entirely.

 

[Dashell]

Okay.. he was in a fog.. he was messed up... that's my point.. can we agree on that?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

My money's on teh latter, Ryu babe.

but I'm pretty sure she kept bringing up the mutual context because that's what someone had told her at one point. She was mocking them, not really saying koibito can only have one meaning.

I realize this. And the rest have responded accordingly. I'm well aware that Zee is throwing dictionary definitions because dictionaries were quite flaunted at teh time of ze great koibito debate. However, Zee forgets that the dictionaries were in response to the whacked koibito = nice person bull.
She simply chooses to focus on one aspect where the Clotis were at the time tryign to show that no, 'koibito' was never assigned the double meaning "sweetheart" may hold in ze English language on account that the Japanese never used it in that sense.
To take this and pretend it was our central argument is deliberate misdirection.

And as i told you, Q:

Also, the argument was never what you claim. In the context it was used, as a direct statement from Nomura stating Tifa's role in AC, it means exactly that - the other partner of a romantic couple, inevitably the one who is loved by Cloud. These two are stated to reveal feelings for each other about 3 or 4 times. That's how fucking important the staff deem that particular event to be.
Cloud and Aeris could not have been a couple on account that he was oblivious to any such affection. No relationship has ever been established.
We have always been consistent in saying that koibito = the one loved and CoL was never an exception. The problem with CoL is that Aeris from her POV is describing what Cloud is to HER (a symbol), a friend and the object of her affection -- her beloved.
Cloud is thus the one loved. Where do you see the fucking flip-flopping?

I understand both of you came in here implying that our shoe of choice was the flip-flop.
As Jem will tell you, that's just bull. Mako, Ryu, and others have already pointed out that is not just "relevant all of a sudden". IT WAS ALWAYS THERE.

Certain people are just being selective

 

[Celes Chere]

The issues was that Tres quoted PYT's posts from the private Clerith forum. I don't really think the topic needs to be closed but that was the issue...

Oh, no! Not that! Anything but that! Tres, you shit-stirring Cloti, you. xD The topic did not need to be closed because of that, especially because we were discussing shiz in there. Hey, let's close the only section getting posts in the Forum. That's the smart thing to do. /annoyed/ It's really dumb how when these little things happen, a whole thread gets closed, and it's kind of silly that it only gets closed for like a day, sometimes less than that, so that ya'll can discuss... nothing wrong. When actual insults started, nothing got closed down, lol.

I pointed out he wasn't himself when Zack died..

He wasn't acting out Zack's persona until after he died, though.

 

[Dashell]

Oh, no! Not that! Anything but that! Tres, you shit-stirring Cloti, you. xD The topic did not need to be closed because of that, especially because we were discussing shiz in there. Hey, let's close the only section getting posts in the Forum. That's the smart thing to do. /annoyed/ It's really dumb how when these little things happen, a whole thread gets closed, and it's kind of silly that it only gets closed for like a day, sometimes less than that, so that ya'll can discuss... nothing wrong. When actual insults started, nothing got closed down, lol.

Imma appealing to get the topic reopen
As for the insults... inorite?

He wasn't acting out Zack's persona until after he died, though.

But he still was off okay? Come on, Cloud isn't someone who can't form a sentence and goes "ooh" "aaahhh" and repeats what people say all the time. Please just admit that.

 

[Celes Chere]

Yeah, okay. I admit that Cloud was mako poisoned at the time. What's the big deal? XD

 

[Dashell]

The big deal is he was off... so he wasn't COMPLETELY himself, no he was not being someone else, no he was not a different persona, but he wasn't whole either.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The big deal is he was off... so he wasn't COMPLETELY himself, no he was not being someone else, no he was not a different persona, but he wasn't whole either.

If I am doped up on medication, and arguably 'out of my head' on such, I am still myself for the times I am anything resembling lucid. Cloud's mako poisoning rendered him barely himself much of the time, but he WAS lucid in the moment Zack died, and was moving about on his own. He was 'himself' at that moment, even if he was only this side of being elsewhere.

 

[Dashell]

Okay so do you think being lucid and coherent is what determines if you're yourself or not?

Or are you saying because he reacted sadly to Zack's death and that's what made him himself?

EDIT:
okay we figured it out, we're good now.

 

[Celes Chere]

Cloud was poisoned, but he still had his own thoughts and personality. When he was acting as Zack after his death, he did not.

 

[Dashell]

Well I guess this stems from my belief that if someone is that messed up in the head, they aren't really themselves. Like if I were to go off my meds and kill a bunch of people because I think they're evil smurfs or something, then I wasn't really myself.

 

[Tennyo]

LOL, I think it's the Dean icon.

I do believe that is what it is.

 

[Vendel]

Being drunk or really tired is "out of it". Suffering from multiple personality disorder and a sever case of the being a sephy puppet I would call "REALLY FUCKING OUT OF IT".

Cloud when Zack dies is still Cloud.

Cloud when he falls hopelessly in live with Aerith at the same time she falls for him but they don't tell each other but Aerith just knows because she is special and said so herself after she had died but before she had reunited with Zack in ACC is not Cloud.

 

[Dashell]

Well I guess this stems from my belief that if someone is that messed up in the head, they aren't really themselves. Like if I were to go off my meds and kill a bunch of people because I think they're evil smurfs or something, then I wasn't really myself.