LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Vendel]

Cloud when Zack dies is still Cloud.

 

[Celes Chere]

Cloud wasn't messed up in the head though, he was more like in a coma.

 

[Dashell]

Cloud wasn't messed up in the head though, he was more like in a coma.

...

wait I forgot, what are we doing?

 

[Celes Chere]

Take your meds now, Quex.

 

[Isabella]

Sorry to change the subject, but am I to understand that the "desire" quote is being called a mistranslation? Seriously?

 

[Vendel]

Sorry to change the subject, but am I to understand that the "desire" quote is being called a mistranslation? Seriously?

Among other things.

 

[Dashell]

Apparently this is the real one because this person isn't in the FFVII fandom:
When Tifa's feelings toward Cloud are high and the two are left alone on the airship, they will confirm their mutual feelings for one another together.

EDIT:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100104175842AAB9oFs
Yeah ignore the "feelings of want" one from the guy who isn't in the FFVII fandom that was voted best answer ... or maybe he is here idk.

 

[Isabella]

Q do you still have the link to that forum with the translation?

 

[Dashell]

This one?
http://www.utadanet.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4312

Found this when I did a search on some Ultimania texts and thought I should answer since it is recent.

ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う

ティファ = Tifa
クラウド = Cloud
に対する = toward
好感 = favoribility (affection value in this case)
度 = degree
高い = high
場合 = event...
飛空艇= airship
に残っ = left over (remain in this case, the "ni" says where they remained, airship in this case)
たふたり = two people
互い = each other
求める = to want/desire
気持ち = feeling
確かめ = confirmation
合う = This goes with above confirmation, meaning they confirmed with each other (a scene can confirm something for the viewers while characters involve do not know, this tells us it was confirmed between the characters)

Put it together with the participles and you get:
"In the event the affection value toward Cloud from Tifa is high, the two that remain on the airship will confirm their feelings of desire for each other to one another."

Okay so I have a question now. Can you tell me where to find the Ultimania online in Japanese? I have been looking and you seem to know where it is. Thank you.

 

[Isabella]

Yes that one, thanks. Did you happen to check out the website of the person doing the asking? I'm just curious why she doesn't believe the answer she received from an apparently knowledgeable person who spelled it out character by character.

 

[Dashell]

Because she wanted to get the info from someone not in the fandom, I guess.

 

[Isabella]

Someone who likes FF is incapable of an accurate translation?

 

[Celes Chere]

It's in her nature to go around asking until she finds that one person who says it the way she wants. That's the one she will go by.

 

[Isabella]

Guh ... it bugs because the translation is spelled out and easily verifiable.

 

[Vendel]

Apparently this is the real one because this person isn't in the FFVII fandom:
When Tifa's feelings toward Cloud are high and the two are left alone on the airship, they will confirm their mutual feelings for one another together.

It seems to me that this one does not convey "demand/desire for each other". This looks like another "doesn't say what feelings" thing.

And bella. If it seems Cloti, it must be a mistranslation.

 

[Dashell]

Someone who likes FF is incapable of an accurate translation?

What? Don't you know that?
I can ... KIND OF understand the reasoning, to get a point of view from someone not involved. Obviously every Cloti is going to say "DESIRE" and every Clerith is going to say "WHATEVER THEIR REBUTTAL IS"

But in all honesty I asked 5 people I know who speak Japanese about this statement. One of them said the statement was ambiguous, another one said it was ambiguous at first, then when I questioned about the meaning of Motomeru and he changed his mind with like, "Well I only said it wasn't romantic because I thought it was supposed to be ambiguous." and yet a third person and I went through:

"I think it's feelings of understanding."
"Where are you getting understanding?"
"Well I didn't look at the whole thing you sent me."
"Can it be feelings of want?"
"Well that's what I though at first but that's leaning too much to one side"
"... thats the point..."

So I wonder if this sentence is like... ambiguous when you first look at it and then you realize it isn't because IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE.

It's in her nature to go around asking until she finds that one person who says it the way she wants. That's the one she will go by.

I like how you talk about her like she's her own species.

 

[Vendel]

I am not sure how all these quotes are supposed to be ambiguous. Sometimes they just mean what they say.

 

[Celes Chere]

I like how you talk about her like she's her own species.

Let's just say she's.... special.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Ok, even if we take out the feelings of want--and desire--and return to "mutual feelings" we KNOW for a fucking FACT that Tifa wants Cloud. This is made obvious through the ENTIRE fucking game, so much so that she sees Aerith as a rival and Clerith fans call her a clingy bitch, so, then, even with the removal of the accurate translation, we KNOW Tifa's feelings are romantic, so if, in that scene they reveal their MUTUAL feelings they would HAVE to be romantic in nature based on that alone. ONE can't 'want' and the other 'not' and those feelings be considered mutual. It makes no sense and twists logic in ways that Aerith's side curls would envy.

I try not to generalize, but seriously, Cleriths are fucking batshit insane.

 

[Strangelove]

So its from Hojo's perspective? Fair enough. However, he more than likely just forgot about Cloud and automatically thought he was a failure cause he had no tattoo. By the time he examined him, he more than likely thought he was a success as well, since in FFVII, on his chart, he's labeled as a success with a positive reaction.

Which chart was that? IIRC, he was listed as having an over-reaction. But I cba finding out something that says that now

+ as an aside, wasn't koibito used for Zack/Aeris somewhere? I'm pretty sure I didn't dream this. LOLz
Ryu? Someone confirm or deny

Zack/Aerith were the ones who were actually 'like koibito'. I think it was the CC Ultimania, 'relationship like [that of] lovers' (恋人のような&#20210.

But I cba to look it up

But yeah... why would Nojima use a word that usually implies a mutual relationship to make it seem like her love was one sided? That's all I want to know.

Nojima is a massive troll.

First Nomura trolls C/A fans, then Nojima trolls C/T fans. And Gackt trolls all those fanfic writers who put surrogate characters into FFVII's world by having an official canon one.

Sorry to change the subject, but am I to understand that the "desire" quote is being called a mistranslation? Seriously?

lolz.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Wait, am I understanding this right? Did the people you ask tell you that they think the quote's ambiguous because had they said anything else it would lean too far on one side (Cloti)?

LOLz mistranslation. Like koibito. It means nice person....except when attached to Aeris. Then it means other partner of a couple in an unrealized relationship and unspoken love, which Aeris knew anyway cause she's special.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well I guess this stems from my belief that if someone is that messed up in the head, they aren't really themselves. Like if I were to go off my meds and kill a bunch of people because I think they're evil smurfs or something, then I wasn't really myself.

If you have a schizophrenic episode, you are still you, you are just seeing what isn't there.
But Cloud isn't having something like that. He's fading in and out of consciousness, like a coma. We're getting less Cloud than normal, not something other than Cloud like we get after he makes the new personality.

It's in her nature to go around asking until she finds that one person who says it the way she wants. That's the one she will go by.

Even if it makes no goddamn sense. Because language is secondary to Aerith winning.

What? Don't you know that?
I can ... KIND OF understand the reasoning, to get a point of view from someone not involved. Obviously every Cloti is going to say "DESIRE" and every Clerith is going to say "WHATEVER THEIR REBUTTAL IS"

And we'll say desire because it's correct.

So I wonder if this sentence is like... ambiguous when you first look at it and then you realize it isn't because IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE.

Out of context, things become ambiguous. In context, wiggle room vanishes.

I like how you talk about her like she's her own species.

There's enough of her to be an entire family, at least.

Wait, am I understanding this right? Did the people you ask tell you that they think the quote's ambiguous because had they said anything else it would lean too far on one side (Cloti)?

I think they might be worried about reading it too sexually based on a single quote, which I can understand, but mixed with the other six quotes on the subject and risque and mature dialogue, there's no damn wiggle room.

LOLz mistranslation. Like koibito. It means nice person....except when attached to Aeris. Then it means other partner of a couple in an unrealized relationship and unspoken love, which Aeris knew anyway cause she's special.

But we're the ones flip flopping when we bring up the existent meaning of 'beloved' for koibito and are willing to use it in both the COLW and RF quotes for fairness.

 

[Dashell]

If you have a schizophrenic episode, you are still you, you are just seeing what isn't there.

No Ryu you're not, if you're having a schizophrenic episode, you're not making decisions based on what you would normally do. Your head is all fucked up and you do bad things...

Wait, am I understanding this right? Did the people you ask tell you that they think the quote's ambiguous because had they said anything else it would lean too far on one side (Cloti)?

Yes
Two of them anyway, the one guy seemed to say ambiguous no matter what.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No Ryu you're not, if you're having a schizophrenic episode, you're not making decisions based on what you would normally do. Your head is all fucked up and you do bad things...

I'm curious why 'doing bad things' continually rears its head here. I'm talking about if you lose contact with reality, such as falling into an 'active coma' or what happens in schizophrenic episodes, when hallucination overpowers reality.

Let's use the analogy of a computer program. Schizophrenia is like feeding deliberately bad data into a program and watching it go 'insane'. The program hasn't changed, only the input. What you're talking about- and what happened to Cloud when he formed the fake personality- is changing the program itself. Given the same 'good data' as the original program, it will output a different reaction.

Now, yes, some personality disorders are akin to 'changing the program', but not all, and certainly not Cloud's catatonia. Cloud's catatonia is more like the monitor and speakers of the computer that the program is hooked up to not working. It can still receive data, still function, it's just that it cannot express this data in any meaningful fashion.

Quex, go ahead and restore that post. The lurker needs to be told such things, so tell them.

 

[Madame Mayor]

The argument about whether Cloud was Cloud seems irrelevant when you remember that it's about arguing if fake Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith would continue on to the real Cloud, because you first need to prove even fake Cloud had those feelings.

No Clerii or otherwise has yet been able to do so. People just seem pissed that they fell for the Aerith and Cloud potential that was suppose to make her death more shocking rather than actual be anything beyond that.