LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Fairheartstrife]

**puts on rabid Cloti cap**

Or, the more likely scenario, is that "something dear" is Cloud's false persona.

What he seeks is Sephiroth and revenge--BEFORE Aerith gets all gut stabbed--and in achieving that goal, he loses the false persona he has encased himself with. His version of 'ideal' based on his hero complex to impress Tifa.

In fact, if the statement were referring to Aerith--as drunken Cleriths seem to think--then it would have been "lose someONE dear" and not "something". I mean, you have to take things like words very definitively here. There can't be more than ONE way to look at that. No, just no. unless they want to claim Aerith as a 'thing'...

**takes of hat**

Even their best arguments/chances can be squashed with rational counterpoints. They just can't pull that shit off on their end.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

This thought occurred to me also, that Aerith need not be the "something dear" in the first place. Just saying, it works better for them than like anything else I've ever seen from Clerith.

And btw, thank you for posting. I have been going crazy sitting here with no replies, bored as all hell.

 

[Celes Chere]

Wow, FHS. That's a really good point, I actually hadn't thought about it like that before. I always assumed it was Aerith, and it never bothered me any, lol. You're right though, Aerith isn't a thing.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

olo TNC

DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING OFFICIAL BECAUSE WE HAVE OFFICIAL TRANSLATIONS FROM SQUEENIX WELL IF YOU TAKE OUT MAIDEN AND COLW AND MOST OF THE TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ULTIMANIAS BUT DOING A DEBATE WITHOUT THIS SORT OF SHIT IS AWESOME BECAUSE IT PROVES I'M RIGHTTHAT YOU HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON BWA HA HA

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

olo TNC

DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING OFFICIAL BECAUSE WE HAVE OFFICIAL TRANSLATIONS FROM SQUEENIX WELL IF YOU TAKE OUT MAIDEN AND COLW AND MOST OF THE TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ULTIMANIAS BUT DOING A DEBATE WITHOUT THIS SORT OF SHIT IS AWESOME BECAUSE IT PROVES I'M RIGHTTHAT YOU HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON BWA HA HA

Your skills with sarcasm astound me. Bravo.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Incidentally it's opposite day, so thank you for your concession.

Go fuck yourself.

That was actually a really good book series.

It was alright.

Because he just has such a badass facade inbetween drinking, and acting like a clown around Rude.

Doesn't he?

People who hate Crisis Core, are like people who hate punch and pie. I not only don't get them..I don't want to get them.

Back atcha.

Sure, it has its good points, and some great scenes and characterization. But then you look past the facade and see the truth of what lies beneath.

So not only did I remember it actually being in proper grammar... but I injected something there that should be. Just goes to show how the human mind abhors incompleteness, filling in the gaps where they should be.

The human mind tends to abhor inconsistency as well, but look how you make excuses for it all the damn time.

Well that's odd. My bad then. But that sounds weird. "Fragment Program." Makes it sound like the program's incomplete. Start "Fragmentation" or "Fragmenting" Program would make more sense. What the hell's a fragment?

Copies of memories or something. That's what Lucrecia put into the Network as well -- fragments. Remember all those words that spewed across the screen during the flashbacks near the end of the game?:

Jenova's cells... Vincent... Stored as data... Must leave...
Thought... I loved... Record.. Memory copy... For him...
It was wrong... Wait... Disperse... ...so sorry... Apply...
...but I... For... Fragment... Survive... Hope... who...?

Fragments appear to literally be copies of a person's memories.

Also, check this out:

Shelke: A large quantity of her mnemonic data fragments has been uploaded into my neural network. It was my prime directive to use this data to locate and retrieve the Protomateria. However, not only was the data incomplete, but part of her consciousness began interfering with my own thought processes.

Hm, "mnemonic data fragments." Sounds a lot like "neurodata" to me. And, what's that, both Hojo and Lucrecia used a fragment program?

I'm just fucking with you. "Neurodata" was just "fragments" in the Japanese script, and so was "mnemonic data fragments." So Shelke didn't use a similar word to refer to Lucrecia's data that Hojo used to refer to his own -- she used the exact same word.

Also, Hojo didn't say "my inner being" when describing what he'd put into the Network. He said, "Into the Worldwide Network, I scattered my fragments ...... my mind ....... data of my thoughts and knowledge."

To me it sounds like he was describing what his fragments are -- and it sounds like it's a copy of his memories, same as with Lucrecia's fragments.

By the way, in Lucrecia's broken monlogue from late in the game that I quoted above, she says "memory copy" in both English and Japanese. Don't know if that helps any, but just wanted to throw it out there.

Well aren't you saying that he had his mind backed up, and then with his dying breath, he "released" the data of his mind into the network and then died?

Huh. That makes sense.

I always figured that Yuffie's device was detecting the copy of Hojo, but that actually is a happy medium between our two understandings and makes a lot of sense.

I'm saying that if he bothered to upload his mind, why wait? Just upload it into the network, and then if you don't need it, delete it off said network.

Right, I see what you're saying.

Exactly. You can probably attribute every bizarre continuity conundrum to that single source. He's like Xehanort. He is the source of all Heartless continuity crises.

I still need to write Case of Kitase.

It looks like we'll only get to an agreement by seeing what the book says. XD

Or by just acknowledging that I'm right.

Does the stuff I quoted from the Japanese script sway you any? I hope it does, because I'm not expecting the book to say anything more than "stuffed his fragments into the Network." XD

Okay, but this is what I don't understand. If they just haphazardly stuck the Sister Ray to all the Mako Reactors, and had it as a last minute weapon to blow Sephiroth to hell...when and how would they give that thing internet access? Why?

Why not? It's got to be connected to Shin-Ra's network somehow. I assume the Internet is Shin-Ra's.

Eh, well I'll admit some of it is, consistent, just inconsistent with the actual creator given continuity. It could fit, if it were actually properly integrated.

Ho shit, I think Mako just had a breakthrough.

But, no, for real, that already feels like a win. XD A mutual victory, of course.

Dude, he was obviously flirting. He even asked, "Doesn't it make you fall in love all over again?" right after. FFS

Point I'm making is, there shouldn't even have to be an "all over again." They were always in love.

That's getting into LTD territory, Mako. What thread do you think this is?

The whole fact they portrayed Aerith as not ever being in love with Zack anymore, even though most of the things she did in FFVII were out of her still carrying said lover's torch for Zack, is bizarre.

Not really. Maiden did the same thing. It showed that she didn't really know Cloud that well and that the things she thought she knew about him were just the things that reminded her of Zack.

But she still continued to prefer Cloud during Maiden -- which, I think, fits with her feelings in Case of the Lifestream White as well, where she should already know the truth about Cloud and her own feelings. Even so, she's still referring to Cloud as having been her koibito.

It's also pretty fucking cliche but that was one of the moments and things I did like about Maiden, so fuck you for bringing that up.

Now that was my true victory.

I said I'm going to do some translations tonight. What do you want from me? XD

Everything, Tres. Everything.

Don't get greedy.

What the hell? I don't get how you can even still defend this!

Easily.

That's because Sephiroth still had his completed, whole spirit. He may have lost his body, but he was still whole as a spirit, and capable of holding Holy back. So while he may have died, he was still strong and complete enough to enact his plan anyways. So it was like "roffle, you wasted your time for nothing."

His plan involved more than just holding back Holy and letting Meteor smack into the planet, though. Without his body, isn't it safe to assume that his original plan was fucked?

Getting assraped in the spirit realm wasn't part of the equation.

Getting killed in the living realm wasn't part of the plan either, but the bitch was still laughing.

I'd cry too if I got dregged out of the lifestream cesspool by Nomura just to get raped again by the hero, but Sephiroth's such an attention whore, I know he liked it. So no, fuck you

As I recall, Kefka concluded that Seph is a sadist. That means he wants to be the one doing the flogging.

So if I write an FFVII fan fic, and make it consistent, will you argue it too?

If you get it published by Square, sure.

And I dunno..probably for the same reason you have a hard time accepting the changes shown and implemented in Crisis Core. Sometimes things just rub you wrong in their outright stupidity and lack of necessity.

That's not really the same reason. I just hate narrative inconsistency.

You really put Sephiroth on the level of a psychopath like Kefka. Laughing when he should be upset, laughing when in utter torment. I mean, damn.

It's Sephiroth.

Why would he laugh if he's so damn bitter, all he can think about is hating Cloud to keep him going? Why would he laugh if all of the shit he worked for fell to pieces? Sephiroth isn't that type of guy. He doesn't just laugh it off like a maniac. Yeah, he didn't think such a thing were possible, but he sure as hell wouldn't laugh and go, "Well shit on me, that fucker did it! El, oh, el."

It's Sephiroth.

Not really. Did Shin-Ra rouse a united effort against Sephiroth? Yes? Did they throw everything they had at him at any time? Ever?

No, but no where does it imply they did!

It's Sephi -- oh, I guess that response stopped applying.

Obviously it's never implied that Shin-Ra threw everything they had at Seph, but I don't think it's implied that the entire Lifestream was thrown at Meteor.

Short of the novella making a statement to that effect, I just don't see it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But seriously, this is one that could potentially be weighed in the Clerith-camps favor without sounding 100% bullshit. So why have I never heard it and Clerith mentioned at the same time?

I can only assume you missed it, because it's definitely been done. A lot.

In fact, that was quite the double-standard itself: Supposedly, evidence that Cait's Temple of the Ancients prediction is reliable is his prediction that Cloud would lose something dear -- so a prediction that Aerith was going to die is somehow support for a prediction that Cloud and Aerith will marry.

Figure that one out, if you can.

The explanation was that Aerith's "path of destiny" didn't yet have her set on the way to dying at the time Cait made his prediction in the Temple -- even though he'd supposedly predicted her death prior to that.

Aside from the obvious contradiction, this explanation assumed an awful lot about the metaphysics of a toy spy's officially labeled unreliable fortune-telling.

As for the "you will lose something dear" prediction, the Ultimania Omega suggested it could be foreshadowing Aerith's death or the loss of Cloud's false persona. But, really, it was just some bullshit Reeve pulled out of his ass to get on the team.

That woulda made the LTD easier eh? Aerith turns out to be Cloud's long lost sister, and thus we never have to worry about it again.

So then the pairing would just be Cloud and Aerith, who happens to be his sister.

And Tifa NEVER fucking LIED to Cloud. In fact, she was JUST as confused as he was--maybe more so--about the events of Nibleheim, because Cloud KNEW shit he shouldn't have known. If anything, she doubted herself.

Technically, she did lie here:

Tifa
"Zack......"

Cloud
"Do you know him?"

Tifa
"N, no, I don't know him!"

Cloud
"Your face tells me differently."

Tifa
"I told you, I don't!"

But it was for the same reason she kept quiet otherwise, so it's not egregious or anything.

I can pretend to be rabid Clerith if you want. c:

CloudxAerith changed my life. It showed me what true love is. ♥ I was watching ACC the other day, and my little sister was in the room and she drew a picture of Cloud and Aerith isn't it funny that a SIX YEAR OLD knows the canon? That is so cute Clerith is touching the hearts of millions.

Ho shit. XD

You know, she did say sorry so I accept the apology. It's nice to move on from being at each others throats constantly

Quoted for fucking truth.

As far as it goes, when not discussing the LTD with them, I actually like talking to FFG and Anastar. There's more to a person than what side they take in this damn pairing war.

But, yeah, if someone has tried to learn from a mistake, fucking let them. That's all you can ask of someone.

And Sky's okay in my book.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Tres: Yes, I did miss it. Sadly, I wasn't here for it. Yes, I am aware that is my own dumbass fault.

 

[Madame Mayor]

@Tres: Yes, I did miss it. Sadly, I wasn't here for it. Yes, I am aware that is my own dumbass fault.

It's hard to keep up with their arguments sometimes, because they are always changing based on new evidence that makes them need to back peddle and come up with yet another crazy theory. SEE: Zack in ACC or COLW koibito no longer means nice person.

As far as it goes, when not discussing the LTD with them, I actually like talking to FFG and Anastar. There's more to a person than what side they take in this damn pairing war.

When someone can let a pairing war do what FFG did on ACF to... well... who I'm talking about will know what I'm referring to and if they want to tell the story I'll let them. But still, I've seen them do more than just be crazy themselves, they've been downright bitches at times, and that's just not cool.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Some of us spent like, the entirety of last night being downright bitches, in a manner of speaking. Only Celes had the decency to express any guilt on the matter. Until now. Minerva help me, I've been acting.... *choke, gasp* like a Clerith!

*Darth Vader Melodrama moment* NOOOOOO!!!!!

 

[Madame Mayor]

Not talking about that kind of being a bitch. This is light-hearted and not meant to be taken seriously most of the time. I'm talking about some really downright nasty things that I'm shocked some people would do, all for the sake of a shipping war.

I don't feel guilt any more, not after some of the things I've seen them do to other people, even people I didn't like, but I knew didn't deserve that kind of treatment.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Not talking about that kind of being a bitch. This is light-hearted and not meant to be taken seriously most of the time. I'm talking about some really downright nasty things that I'm shocked some people would do, all for the sake of a shipping war.

I don't feel guilt any more, not after some of the things I've seen them do to other people, even people I didn't like, but I knew didn't deserve that kind of treatment.

Wow... that sounds like you took a single word I just said seriously. Did the "NOOOOO!!!!" and related elements of my post not give me away as being a sarcastic fucker on that one?

My sarcasm broke, how's that for a bitch?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Ah hell, I'm more sleepy than I thought. Take it as a compliment then, the best sarcasm is the kind that you can't quite tell if they are serious or not. XP

But honestly I've had some people actually tell me and others we are too harsh sometimes.

I should just go back to lurking. *vanishes*

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

*looks around for Ryu* Whew, safe. Mention of it being possible to be too harsh to Clerith pinkers, and we could see one of his "warning shots" and you may have the cool healing factor, but to a simple tonberry reference like your's truly, ICBM = Death.

And thanks, this is a good thought. My sarcasm not only is not broken, its apparently super effective... at least on the really tired.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Tres: Yes, I did miss it. Sadly, I wasn't here for it. Yes, I am aware that is my own dumbass fault.

Not really. There's a lot that's been said in 12 years.

When someone can let a pairing war do what FFG did on ACF to... well... who I'm talking about will know what I'm referring to and if they want to tell the story I'll let them. But still, I've seen them do more than just be crazy themselves, they've been downright bitches at times, and that's just not cool.

I'm unfamiliar with the story. Don't like the sound of it already.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Eh, I still accept responsibility for not looking into this whole "Forum full of like minded FFVII nerds" sooner. Sure, I might not have been here the whole 12 years, but I'd have missed substantially less.

I honestly would feel like a hypocrite for mocking the "logic" of Clerith "debate" except... well even just hearing about it, and experiencing it on a much smaller scale from friends in person, how could I NOT?

And Wolvy, I don't ask that you relay the full story, but are we talking like personal attacks on Cloti followers? The kind that are entirely irrelevant to the argument itself? Like... stuff Dacon might say, only not half as funny.

 

[Super Mario]

you knew Dacon?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Knew him, no. Seen his name attached to posts which were frequently some variation of "fuck you crybaby" and similar phrases, yes.

I notice you refer to him past tense. Is he gone? I had kinda hoped to be on the receiving end of one of his somewhat out of the blue foul-language-gasms someday.

 

[Super Mario]

our hero has left the building. for good it seems. : ( I could've danced with him all night <3

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Well damn, that means I have lost my chance to be blasted with profanity by that certain someone. Now I'll never fully fit in. Oh well, fuck it, I'm used to not fitting in. I just used the concept as an excuse to call Mako a fuckwit in a different thread despite not actually believing it, cause I like the word fuckwit.

And... you say you could dance all night with Dacon... did this involve whips and spankings for him? Or is that reaction just for everyone else and, as of late last night/this morning when I threatened to spank you in return, especially me?

 

[Super Mario]

he was so good in bed. his pecks are so ripped he makes Doctor Manhattan cry in shame. yes THAT Doctor Manhattan. I bet he can beat Kratos and Dante for best bed dancer liek totally.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Ahhh, Dacon <3

As for guilt...what guilt? I'm not going to feel guilty for making fun of retarded arguments and the people who come up with them. Dupe accounts, WacDonalds, personal attacks, closing forums, making up Japanese people etc., etc....

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

he was so good in bed. his pecks are so ripped he makes Doctor Manhattan cry in shame. yes THAT Doctor Manhattan. I bet he can beat Kratos and Dante for best bed dancer liek totally.

^This in no way answers my question. It does, however, kill any desire I ever had to receive an answer. Bra-fuckin-vo for this.

And OWD, I agree, no guilt for making fun of/completely owning any of the 'tardisms I've seen Cleriths try to pass of as anything other than exactly that.

 

[Madame Mayor]

And Wolvy, I don't ask that you relay the full story, but are we talking like personal attacks on Cloti followers?

On second thought, let's just say yes.

 

[Super Mario]

personal attacks? japanese people who don't exist? when has this shit taken to the extremes? I'm not gonna let Takeshi Miyamoto do that to me liek.