LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Winter]

Thank you Celes! IDK WHAT IT IS SAYING but oh I do love me some Aeris. ;o;

'From the beginning of the tale, it's been some time since Zack has been dead, but still Aerith cannot see this truth'

That right there actually sounds like it's saying she didn't know Zack was dead. Which in the original canon I don't think she did (but Christ, SE has fucked around with this story so much I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER. I'm long overdue for another playthrough) so it seems like this isn't really new information.

Although if the full translation sounds different I do have an open mind.

Besides, she's always seen Zack in Cloud, at least a little bit.

(also, ilu guys but I'm gonna have to spoil your fun: You know there will be one vaguely Cleris-y line for the Cleris to fangirl over, and all arguments will be null. THIS IS THE LTD, IT'S ALL CIRCLES AND DEAD HORSE BEATING, EVEN WHEN ACTUAL PROOF EMERGES)

Hasn't the "Why don't we see some big ole Cloti scenes in DC if they are a couple?" argument been used before?

I do think that SE leans towards Cloti in the actual Compilation (and by leans I mean ships) but even I wonder this too. Is there any concrete reason why they aren't making sweet, sweet on-screen love in DoC?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

So Q I decided to check in on your little one on one debate. And I must say I got about this far and fell out of my chair.



I sure do hope this is not about anything that happened here. Because if it is and not about that other place. I will shit myself.

In all likelihood I would guess you should keep some TP and spare pants on hand dude. Seems the safest bet.

Also.


Hasn't the "Why don't we see some big ole Cloti scenes in DC if they are a couple?" argument been used before?

And dude, still miss the horse.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Thank you Celes! IDK WHAT IT IS SAYING but oh I do love me some Aeris. ;o;

That right there actually sounds like it's saying she didn't know Zack was dead. Which in the original canon I don't think she did (but Christ, SE has fucked around with this story so much I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER. I'm long overdue for another playthrough) so it seems like this isn't really new information.

Although if the full translation sounds different I do have an open mind.

If it was 'does not know' that would make sense, she would have no reason to know other than Magical Cetra powers, but it talks about 'seeing' which tells me it's a truth she should be able to grasp, but is is not.

Besides, she's always seen Zack in Cloud, at least a little bit.

(also, ilu guys but I'm gonna have to spoil your fun: You know there will be one vaguely Cleris-y line for the Cleris to fangirl over, and all arguments will be null. THIS IS THE LTD, IT'S ALL CIRCLES AND DEAD HORSE BEATING, EVEN WHEN ACTUAL PROOF EMERGES)

Smeg the vaguely Clerisy, if the 'confirmed their feelings of desire for each other without words' is exactly in there, that's pretty explicit C/T stuff.

Also, It's Vincent's story. Same reason we don't see anything about their relationship in CoRed or CoShinRa.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I think the more important question about DoC is why they let Barrett drive. Seriously, were we all suicidal that day?

As for why theres no sweet sweet on camera Cloti lovin' at all, I figure SE are just dicks. As long as we don't SEE them kiss, smex, or even hold hands, Cleriths can overlook everything else. Its either trolling of a very subtle nature, or its a preventative measure to keep the crazier pinkers from putting out their own eyes from the sight of it.

Despite offering that more noble option, my vote is for SE-dickery.

 

[Winter]

If it was 'does not know' that would make sense, she would have no reason to know other than Magical Cetra powers, but it talks about 'seeing' which tells me it's a truth she should be able to grasp, but is is not.

Yeah. Which makes sense, but to be fair it doesn't have to mean she's in love with him.

I'm really interested in seeing that full quote though. In CC it seemed to imply that she sensed Zack's death, whereas in the original canon I always got the vibe she had no clue what happened to him, and just assumed he fell out of love with her and went on with his life. I always thought that was a bit of retconning there on Square's part, so we'll see.

Smeg the vaguely Clerisy, if the 'confirmed their feelings of desire for each other without words' is exactly in there, that's pretty explicit C/T stuff.

Haha, I know. But like I said, it's the LTD, what do you expect?

LV- It's Vincent's story. Same reason we don't see anything about their relationship in CoRed or CoShinRa.

But we did see them, and they really didn't give off any vibe that they were in a relationship (that I recall, I hated Dirge and didn't even come close to finishing). I'm not doubting that they probably were together, I'm just wondering why SE didn't show it a little more.

It's one of the reasons people still argue against C/T, because SE manages to only express how they feel about it in Ultimanias.

edit:

As for why theres no sweet sweet on camera Cloti lovin' at all, I figure SE are just dicks. As long as we don't SEE them kiss, smex, or even hold hands, Cleriths can overlook everything else. Its either trolling of a very subtle nature, or its a preventative measure to keep the crazier pinkers from putting out their own eyes from the sight of it.

Despite offering that more noble option, my vote is for SE-dickery.

I think this is an excellent theory. SE, you fucking trolls.

 

[Celes Chere]

what the hell does Nibelheim have to do with that scene?

I think it gives a more... dramatic effect? Perhaps trying to show the connection between Cloud and Tifa, I mean the song relates to both of them.

Thank you Celes

No problem. c:

That right there actually sounds like it's saying she didn't know Zack was dead.

Well, yeah. But it's a common Clerith argument that because Aerith says that Zack probably went off with another woman and that they were nothing serious, is proof towards CxA. Clearly they were serious, the creators tell us they were sincerely in love and intimate. And of course, Aerith is not stupid. She knows that Zack did not go off with another woman, lol. This is the denial that all of us have been talking about for a long time now.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Yeah. Which makes sense, but to be fair it doesn't have to mean she's in love with him.

I'm really interested in seeing that full quote though. In CC it seemed to imply that she sensed Zack's death, whereas in the original canon I always got the vibe she had no clue what happened to him, and just assumed he fell out of love with her and went on with his life. I always thought that was a bit of retconning there on Square's part, so we'll see.


Haha, I know. But like I said, it's the LTD, what do you expect?

But we did see them, and they really didn't give off any vibe that they were in a relationship (that I recall, I hated Dirge and didn't even come close to finishing). I'm not doubting that they probably were together, I'm just wondering why SE didn't show it a little more.

^Were they ever even shown in the same room on that game? I mean, what was Cloud supposed to do, call her cell in the middle of fighting Rosso/watching her run away, just to say "Hey, love you!"

It's one of the reasons people still argue against C/T, because SE manages to only express how they feel about it in Ultimanias.

^This is my point about SE-dickery right here.

 

[Winter]

Well, yeah. But it's a common Clerith argument that because Aerith says that Zack probably went off with another woman and that they were nothing serious, is proof towards CxA. Clearly they were serious, the creators tell us they were sincerely in love and intimate. And of course, Aerith is not stupid. She knows that Zack did not go off with another woman, lol. This is the denial that all of us have been talking about for a long time now.

Well, I think they can be serious (they were pretty serious, to be fair. still can't figure out how much of that "seriousness" was just crazy amounts of retconning, but either way it's canon now) and she can still fall in love with Cloud later.

She knows he didn't leave her for another woman, I always felt in the game that remarks like that were sort of offhand jokes to help keep her lighthearted about the matter.

But I really don't think she's swimming in some wild river of crazy denial where she thinks Zack is still gonna show up and sweep her off her feet and shit. I got the impression that no matter what had happened to him, she had moved on with her life. She did manage to fall for Cloud, after all.

 

[Dashell]

But, I still have to ask: Who's dumbass idea was it to change the music for the "passed out in the flowerbed" scene?

No see this was funny because Cleriths used to say "Aerith was there because the song water is playing" then they changed it XD

So Q I decided to check in on your little one on one debate. And I must say I got about this far and fell out of my chair.

Get out of my one on one you nut
I really don't wish to pursue that matter any further with him or anyone else for that matter.

Hasn't the "Why don't we see some big ole Cloti scenes in DC if they are a couple?" argument been used before?

But some of them yes... I'm not sure if Shroudy ever said it.

That right there actually sounds like it's saying she didn't know Zack was dead. Which in the original canon I don't think she did (but Christ, SE has fucked around with this story so much I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER. I'm long overdue for another playthrough) so it seems like this isn't really new information.

Yeah you got a point, "cannot accept this truth" or something would be a bit different.

If it was 'does not know' that would make sense, she would have no reason to know other than Magical Cetra powers, but it talks about 'seeing' which tells me it's a truth she should be able to grasp, but is is not.

Well fine then

BTW:

But I really don't think she's swimming in some wild river of crazy denial where she thinks Zack is still gonna show up and sweep her off her feet and shit. I got the impression that no matter what had happened to him, she had moved on with her life. She did manage to fall for Cloud, after all.

 

[Vendel]

I got the impression that no matter what had happened to him, she had moved on with her life. She did manage to fall for Cloud, after all.

Except you are ignoring the big ole honking facts that she has not moved on. Saying shit like he ran off and they were not serious is her making shit up to feel better about the situation. And the fact that she is stalking Cloud while talking about her EX all the time should be a hint.

She was trying to relive Zack through Cloud. By the time she comes to terms that Cloud is not Zack 2.0 she gets killed.

Aerith is meant to be the tragic figure of FFVII.

 

[Dashell]

Aerith is meant to be the tragic figure of FFVII.

No Tifa is... for... some reason...

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Vendel: I gotta say, the "Aerith only likes Cloud cause he acted like Zack" thing doesn't cover it completely. She does, according to her Gold Saucer date, acknowledge the fact that he is not himself and express a desire to meet the real him. I think she liked the few bits of the real Cloud who peeked through his weird little fake personality too. Though I agree, Cloud's mental gymnastics did have a lot to do with the initial attraction.

 

[Winter]

Except you are ignoring the big ole honking facts that she has not moved on. Saying shit like he ran off and they were not serious is her making shit up to feel better about the situation. And the fact that she is stalking Cloud while talking about her EX all the time should be a hint.

She was trying to relive Zack through Cloud. By the time she comes to terms that Cloud is not Zack 2.0 she gets killed.

Aerith is meant to be the tragic figure of FFVII.

Saying shit like "we weren't serious" prevents people from asking questions and prevents her from having to think about it to much. FOR EXAMPLE, LAWLS: I'm very over my ex. We were very much in love and very serious, but when people are like WHAT'S THE STORY THERE I'm like "LOL IT WAS NOTHING, PRETTY DUMB" because I don't need that weight on me.

Aerith isn't crazy stalker girl: she's the tragic figure of FFVII not because of her love life, but because she grew up first in a laboratory, then in the slums of Midgar, and still became an emotionally strong and brave woman. Of course she's sad -- but it's not because of Zack. It's because she's alone in the world as a Cetra, trying to understand what she's meant to do, and because the government kind of killed her parents and stuff.

No Tifa is... for... some reason...

WELL HER TOO but not for the Cleris reasoning of CLOUD REJECTED HER, WHAT A TRAGIC HEROINE ETC

because that is ridiculous

^Were they ever even shown in the same room on that game? I mean, what was Cloud supposed to do, call her cell in the middle of fighting Rosso/watching her run away, just to say "Hey, love you!"

I am extremely amused thinking about the kind of messages Cloud would leave her. He seems like the kind of guy who's bad at leaving messages, and would leave a 10 minute message when he meant to call her to remind her to buy milk or something.

...when did I start thinking C/T was cute. :C

 

[Vendel]

Aerith isn't crazy stalker girl:

She did magically teleport in front of Cloud when he tries to escape her house.

Of course she's sad -- but it's not because of Zack.

That is why she almost breaks down meeting his parents? That is why her mother said she had her heart broken?

 

[Celes Chere]

But I really don't think she's swimming in some wild river of crazy denial where she thinks Zack is still gonna show up and sweep her off her feet and shit. I got the impression that no matter what had happened to him, she had moved on with her life

I never meant that I thought she was crazy or anything. I don't think what she experiences is unhealthy, just normal. A lot of people act like that when a loved one dies. It's like for instance, my friend who couldn't believe her Grandfather had died until after she got back from the funeral. She couldn't even cry or feel sad until time passed and she realized he was gone. Just a small example.

I believe that Aerith knows Zack is dead, but doesn't want to face that reality. I believe she does later [i(]notice the date scene)[/i], but I also believe that she does not get over Zack. I know that she can tell that Cloud is different (if you get her date scene), and I also believe that she never met the real Cloud while she was living. Did she connect to the real Cloud? She sure did! Did she speak to the real Cloud? Certainly. BUT she never knew him. Not like Tifa, who know something was wrong with him from the very begginning. Tifa, the woman who walked through his mind and pieced it together bit by bit.

That's how I feel about it anyhow. c:

 

[Dashell]

That is why she almost breaks down meeting his parents? That is why her mother said she had her heart broken?

Fuck Winter I was gonna back you up, but I can't argue with that XD

But wait how does Zack's parents know Aerith had her heart broken? O_o

 

[Winter]

She did magically teleport in front of CLoud when he tried to escape her house.

You win, I lol'd. GODDAMN BOXY SPRITES, MAKING ILLOGICAL MOVEMENTS

That is why she almost breaks down meetign his parents? That is why her mother said she had her heart broken?

She didn't break down, she was just sad. I'd say she was closer to a breakdown in the Temple of the Ancients or Cosmo Canyon, when she was coming face to face with who she was as a Cetra. Besides, her mom mentioned her having a broken heart because she brought home a guy. It's not like she just randomly said it.

I just don't think Aeris is the sort of character who was defined by her love life. Even with retconned bullshit, I know she was a stronger character than that.

And Vendel, I miss your horse too. It was amazing.

I never meant that I thought she was crazy or anything. I don't think what she experiences is unhealthy, just normal. A lot of people act like that when a loved one dies. It's like for instance, my friend who couldn't believe her Grandfather had died until after she got back from the funeral. She couldn't even cry or feel sad until time passed and she realized he was gone. Just a small example.

Oh yeah yeah, I know what you mean. I think I've encountered the AERITH IS JUST CRAZY argument one too many times. XD

I believe that Aerith knows Zack is dead, but doesn't want to face that reality. I believe she does later [i(]notice the date scene)[/i], but I also believe that she does not get over Zack. I know that she can tell that Cloud is different (if you get her date scene), and I also believe that she never met the real Cloud while she was living. Did she connect to the real Cloud? She sure did! Did she speak to the real Cloud? Certainly. BUT she never knew him. Not like Tifa, who know something was wrong with him from the very begginning. Tifa, the woman who walked through his mind and pieced it together bit by bit.

Well obviously she didn't know him like Tifa (eventually) did, but she did connect to him and had reason enough to love him.

Your conclusions are sound and logical (even to a Cleris!) don't worry! c: SE seems to have left a little interpretation room here anyways, so it's not like one person would be COMPLETELY WRONG in any assumption relating to Aerith's love life.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Saying shit like "we weren't serious" prevents people from asking questions and prevents her from having to think about it to much. FOR EXAMPLE, LAWLS: I'm very over my ex. We were very much in love and very serious, but when people are like WHAT'S THE STORY THERE I'm like "LOL IT WAS NOTHING, PRETTY DUMB" because I don't need that weight on me.

Aerith isn't crazy stalker girl: she's the tragic figure of FFVII not because of her love life, but because she grew up first in a laboratory, then in the slums of Midgar, and still became an emotionally strong and brave woman. Of course she's sad -- but it's not because of Zack. It's because she's alone in the world as a Cetra, trying to understand what she's meant to do, and because the government kind of killed her parents and stuff.

WELL HER TOO but not for the Cleris reasoning of CLOUD REJECTED HER, WHAT A TRAGIC HEROINE ETC

because that is ridiculous


I am extremely amused thinking about the kind of messages Cloud would leave her. He seems like the kind of guy who's bad at leaving messages, and would leave a 10 minute message when he meant to call her to remind her to buy milk or something.

...when did I start thinking C/T was cute. :C

Goood.... good... I can feel the Cloti... swell within you. Now, embrace your anger! Strike me down, and your journey to the Cloti shall be complete!

 

[Vendel]

But wait how does Zack's parents know Aerith had her heart broken? O_o

Her Mom.

She didn't break down, she was just sad.

She ran out of the house with her face in her hands. Was she about to sneeze?

I just don't think Aeris is the sort of character who was defined by her love life.

...... No comment.

 

[Winter]

She ran out of the house with her face in her hands. Was she about to sneeze?

Shit, you win this one. It's been too long since I played the game. :C However, there's a few other times that she gets upset like that, and most of them have to do with her destiny as a Cetra.

..... No comment.

fanon Aerith =/= canon Aerith

:c

 

[Dashell]

...... No comment.

No please do, because if you're implying that she IS defined by her love life... well:

 

[Vendel]

Shit, you win this one. It's been to long since I played the game. :C However, there's a few other times that she gets upset like that, and most of them have to do with her destiny as a Cetra.

All I am saying is you don't need the compilation to see how important Zack was to Aerith.

Also Aerith's true love is Zack not Cloud. Get over it people.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I only call Aerith crazy (specifically batshit crazy) because its funny. Sort of like when I call Mako Eyes a fuckwit, just cause I like that word.

I really liked Aerith, and I don't define her by her love life (partly cause the only lovelife she ever had was with Zack). I defined her by equal parts Cetra/Cheerful girl. As for how she defines herself, who knows? But I'm with Vendel, running out of a house crying is a meltdown, not "just sad".

But I gotta ask, did Zack's parents even know who his girlfriend was? Did Aerith's mom ever become aware of them? I was to understand they just knew he HAD a girlfriend, not who or even much about her, and that Elmyra had never spoken to/contacted them or anything, although this could just be stuff that happened offscreen.

Edit: And damn, three posts while I typed this? Really? Where is that when I am bored and itching for a new post?

 

[Isabella]

I just don't think Aeris is the sort of character who was defined by her love life. Even with retconned bullshit, I know she was a stronger character than that.


Defined by it, definitely not. But it is one piece in the bigger puzzle.

My situation may be a bit different from most of yours. I first played the game in my 20s, and I had lost my fiancé in a car crash months before. I took Aerith's behavior as denial even way back then, before I heard of ltds and ultimanias and stuff. I took it that way because I recognized and identified with the signs. That doesn't mean I'm right and everyone else is wrong. If anything, it may be my own perception that was flawed. But I'm still really surprised when I see people say she was completely over the loss and showed no signs of denial, or EVEN WORSE, that she's weak or crazy or in some way flawed if she is in denial. That's a slap in the face to anyone who's had to cope with a loss like that.

 

[Winter]

All I am saying is you don't need the compilation to see how important Zack was to Aerith.

It was far more subtle and only merely hinted at in the original game, which at least a little room for interpretation. But yes, you're right, the evidence is there.

Also Aerith's true love is Zack not Cloud. Get over it people.

Define "true love". When she died, she was in love with Cloud.

She can't fall out of love with Cloud and back in love with Zack after she dies.

Defined by it, definitely not. But it is one piece in the bigger puzzle.

This I agree with. Zack's death was a part of her tragedy.

I took it that way because I recognized and identified with the signs. That doesn't mean I'm right and everyone else is wrong. If anything, it may be my own perception that was flawed. But I'm still really surprised when I see people say she was completely over the loss and showed no signs of denial, or EVEN WORSE, that she's weak or crazy or in some way flawed if she is in denial. That's a slap in the face to anyone who's had to cope with a loss like that.

Oh yeah, definitely. And she was obviously very intimidated by the thought of him being dead, and she was clearly affected by it; whether or not these behaviors pointed to her being in love with him still is questionable, but you're right, there was a touch of denial in her behavior. Well, not so much denial as a touch of purposeful ignorance.