LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Makoeyes987]

I seem to recall conceding this point earlier, despite feeling I still had a point, just so this could end. Now, Mako, thank you, giving me something Zack could be focusing on from the very moment he died (that being Cloud's success) goes a long way toward legitimately killing my point, and I thank you for having this real argument rather than a shitty "you're wrong". Thank you. We can agree to disagree that just because the bare remnant of someone is right beside you in the LS means you have to be aware of them. I mean, I am sure there are bugs in my house, but until I started to think of a metaphor for my post I wasn't thinking about them. Not ignoring them, so much as entirely unaware of them until given a reason to consider it.

Well I just felt the burning need to continue having an interesting discussion with you

And well, your house isn't exactly an ethereal after life of the thoughts of all who died. Unless you have most unique and awesome real estate agent this world has ever seen XD

But I'm glad you can at least see my point and we came this far amicably.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Yes, I am glad you and I were able to come to a logical conclusion. Didn't say it was a perfect metaphor with the bugs either, and sadly no my real estate is nowhere near that cool. So, now that we've gotten just shy of the point where, in the real world, I'd have asked someone if they wanted to step outside, who has either a new topic or a continuation of this one that isn't quite so beaten to death?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Is Aerith an atheist? I think that's probably the most important point we need to look at, in regards to this subject.

And what are Zack's thoughts on yaoi? That's probably a close second.

 

[Isabella]

There are times when the couples are torn apart but their feelings for each other, that as long as they care for one another they can overcome any obstacle, gives them tremendous strength.

Does this sound similar to Cloud and Tifa's conversation under the HW to anyone else?

 

[Vendel]

Does this sound similar to Cloud and Tifa's conversation under the HW to anyone else?

Or the one in the bedroom in AC?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Mako: I always wondered, what was that church Aerith all but lived in dedicated to? Minerva? The Lifestream itself? Some other deity level being that we're never told about? There doesn't seem to be much in the way of religion on The Planet. Aerith may in fact be an atheist, in that she does not believe in any form of god.

 

[Isabella]

Nah I mean it reminds me of their literal dialogue. Don't have a script handy, however.

 

[Loxetta]

Is Aerith an atheist? I think that's probably the most important point we need to look at, in regards to this subject.

I always wondered, what was that church Aerith all but lived in dedicated to? Minerva? The Lifestream itself? Some other deity level being that we're never told about? There doesn't seem to be much in the way of religion on The Planet. Aerith may in fact be an atheist, in that she does not believe in any form of god.

Aerith is a Cetra. I don't think one is capable of claiming atheism when one can hear dead spirits.

I don't think she really cared about the Church being a church, either. With the complete lack of anything resembling religious iconography in it, it would have been hard to tell what it was once for anyway. There might have been some form of Christianity-esque religion in FF7's world, as everyone in the game recognizes it as a church. Knowledge of planet life doesn't seem to be as widespread in that world as say, the theory of evolution is in ours. (probably a poor example).

And what are Zack's thoughts on yaoi? That's probably a close second.

He doesn't like to talk about it because Aerith's collection is bigger.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I have a question, so off topic that it qualifies as random bullshit, but I am honestly wondering: How did I get to be a senior member after... what? Three days?

 

[Isabella]

Post count. You must have been posting like crazy.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Well I signed up on the 13th (foreshadowing) and this is my 212th post right here, so yeah if post count is what do it that makes sense. Thank you laughing bunny lady.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Damn it. I get a headache and go to bed early and I miss all the frikkin' fun. **pouts**

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Your sig brought back very fond memories. I needed that FHS.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Oh yeah, definitely. And she was obviously very intimidated by the thought of him being dead, and she was clearly affected by it; whether or not these behaviors pointed to her being in love with him still is questionable, but you're right, there was a touch of denial in her behavior. Well, not so much denial as a touch of purposeful ignorance.

Eh, "denial" and "purposeful ignorance" would be much the same here. I mean, she'd just met the dude's parents and found out that they hadn't even heard anything from him.

That had to have been what prompted her sadness, rather than the meeting itself. The reason I think people are right when they say that she wasn't completely over Zack is that, if she were, her reaction to this meeting shouldn't have been to convince herself that he just lost interest in her and moved on.

It should have been, "... So, I guess he really is dead."

She's not crazy.... I know Zack broke her heart and I do realize she loved him, but I still do believe she loves Cloud as well. I mean CoLW revolved around Cloud and only Cloud, no Zack at all. If she loves Zack more than Cloud she has an odd way of showing it.

I agree that she really loved Cloud as well. It is possible to have romantic feelings for more than one person at a time.

Am I making sense? I just get the idea her awareness has been altered by this whole dying thing.

Totally.

Explain if Zack is there SHE MUST BE THINKING ABOUT HIM!

She's Materia Jesus. Her will be done.

Forgive me for thinking I made myself clear when I said she didn't think about Zack in CoLW when he's never fucking mentioned.

For the record, you were clear. I knew right away that you were only talking about CotL White.

Wow...apparently you've drank so much of the kool-aid you lost your sense of humor too.

It wasn't obvious that the sentiment wasn't sincere.

And second, how can Zack always be by her side, if by your assertion, Zack was no where around in Lifestream White?

The Dengeki profile that says Zack is always with her doesn't necessarily apply to events prior to AC/C, though, does it? The magazine was about ACC. During CotL, they very well may not have been together.

Well, we know that she's resurrected him during the time AC takes place at the very least. How long she keeps him around we don't know. Frankly, I'm not convinced she sticks around much longer after the threat of Seph is removed. You'd think she wouldve helped in DoC if she were still around.

This. Seems likely she's gone now.

Are you shitting me?

It says that second one is in a section called ... (For the one love), about the romance between the characters.

Ho shit. Ordering book now.

There are times when the couples are torn apart but their feelings for each other, that as long as they care for one another they can overcome any obstacle, gives them tremendous strength.

Does this sound similar to Cloud and Tifa's conversation under the HW to anyone else?

It does.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Dengeki profile that says Zack is always with her doesn't necessarily apply to events prior to AC/C, though, does it? The magazine was about ACC. During CotL, they very well may not have been together.

So when did Aerith join the lifestream in ACC? The profile is about Aerith's total history, not just what she did in ACC. Cue reference of her watching Cloud from beyond the Lifestream in the FFVII portion of said profile.

Final Fantasy VII
As an Ancient, Aerith risks her life to stop Sephiroth. Afterwards, she continues to watch over Cloud and the others from the Lifestream.

So no. It's not just about ACC.

 

[Eerie]

@Mako: I did the mistake, so I think a lot of people can do it too, but it never occurred to me that this quote was with this one [either I didn't read carefully, or just missed the information, since there are so many Ultimania and I'm kind of lost in the middle XD].

But when you put the whole quote together, then yes, I agree; it has to define Zack watching over her in FFVII [which was what I first thought], but also after in the LS, not only starting right before AC/C with a blank in between.

Also, for the record, I was the one wondering if Aerith didn't awaken him - this time, that is, I'm sure it's not the first time I've seen that theory XD

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Mako: Well, my point was that the articles were setting things up for ACC and was, thus, "about ACC" in that respect.

But in any case, I see your point. Still, you can't disagree that CotL was hardly written with the impression that Zack is with Aerith at that time.

Hell, Sephiroth's spirit chases hers. If Zack was there too, he should have been mentioned.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako: Well, my point was that the articles were setting things up for ACC and was, thus, "about ACC" in that respect.

But in any case, I see your point. Still, you can't disagree that CotL was hardly written with the impression that Zack is with Aerith at that time.

Hell, Sephiroth's spirit chases hers. If Zack was there too, he should have been mentioned.

Zack was taking a shit. Give the man a break, dude.

 

[Strangelove]

Spoiler: Cloud

Arsed. I occasionally can be it

Not that this is really much new here. There wasn't anything for me to twist around and lie about. Also I have no idea where to put this (being Not Very Interesting, Really), so here it goes until then.

Spoiler

A swordsman who claimed to have been a member of "SOLDIER", the Shinra Company's elite fighting force. In actuality he was nothing more than a mere grunt, a false persona formed as a result of having Jenova cells implanted in his body, and he believed himself to be a former SOLDIER. His assistance with the anti-Shinra organization "AVALANCHE" leads him on a journey to protect the planet.
Several times along the way, he finds himself unable to understand who he is. He continues the journey as he battles these doubts, but when he finds himself before his arch nemesis Sephiroth he breaks down completely. After being separated from this team mates is contracted mako poisoning, but in his mental realm he confronts his past and discovers the truth. After regaining his true self, he once again joined the battle to save the planet.

[caption]
He is proud and dislikes getting to know people, but in fact has a insecure personality, leading him to use isolation to try and protect himself.

[caption]
The pain that strikes Cloud when hearing the strange voices is the result of the clash between his original personality and his false personality.

-----

*
In the early parts of the story, Cloud was unconsciously playing out the persona of "ex-SOLDIER Cloud", contrary to his true character, due to the effects of the experiments he underwent 5 years previously. This persona was created from a mix of the memories of a SOLDIER named Zack, Cloud's close friend, and his own nature of wanting to avoid other people. Cloud was not originally the cool hero, but shy, lacking in self-confidence, and awkward around people.

[caption]
After regaining his true self, he shows some slightly unflattering sides to himself, such as his motion sickness.

*
To the young Cloud, Sephiroth was a hero and someone he looked up to, but after Sephiroth burnt down Nibelheim 5 years ago he became a sworn enemy who took away Cloud's hometown. However he is unaware that, because of the Jenova cells within his body, he ends up doing Sephiroth's bidding up until the midpoint of the story.

[caption]
The real reason Cloud continues with the fight to protect the planet is to settle things with Sephiroth.

*
There are many occasions when Cloud is caught up in the moment and dons a disguise, such as when infiltrating Corneo's Mansion or when slipping into the Shinra parade. Despite his reluctance, for some reason no one around him catches on. Perhaps the reason he was able to keep up the SOLDIER act in front of the team was not merely because of Jenova's powers, but also his natural acting talents?

[caption]
Maybe Corneo didn't catch on because he was acting like a woman so well.

 

[Loxetta]

Arsed. I occasionally can be it

Not that this is really much new here. There wasn't anything for me to twist around and lie about. Also I have no idea where to put this (being Not Very Interesting, Really), so here it goes until then.

Spoiler

A swordsman who claimed to have been a member of "SOLDIER", the Shinra Company's elite fighting force. In actuality he was nothing more than a mere grunt, a false persona formed as a result of having Jenova cells implanted in his body, and he believed himself to be a former SOLDIER. His assistance with the anti-Shinra organization "AVALANCHE" leads him on a journey to protect the planet.
Several times along the way, he finds himself unable to understand who he is. He continues the journey as he battles these doubts, but when he finds himself before his arch nemesis Sephiroth he breaks down completely. After being separated from this team mates is contracted mako poisoning, but in his mental realm he confronts his past and discovers the truth. After regaining his true self, he once again joined the battle to save the planet.

[caption]
He is proud and dislikes getting to know people, but in fact has a insecure personality, leading him to use isolation to try and protect himself.

[caption]
The pain that strikes Cloud when hearing the strange voices is the result of the clash between his original personality and his false personality.

-----

*
In the early parts of the story, Cloud was unconsciously playing out the persona of "ex-SOLDIER Cloud", contrary to his true character, due to the effects of the experiments he underwent 5 years previously. This persona was created from a mix of the memories of a SOLDIER named Zack, Cloud's close friend, and his own nature of wanting to avoid other people. Cloud was not originally the cool hero, but shy, lacking in self-confidence, and awkward around people.

[caption]
After regaining his true self, he shows some slightly unflattering sides to himself, such as his motion sickness.

*
To the young Cloud, Sephiroth was a hero and someone he looked up to, but after Sephiroth burnt down Nibelheim 5 years ago he became a sworn enemy who took away Cloud's hometown. However he is unaware that, because of the Jenova cells within his body, he ends up doing Sephiroth's bidding up until the midpoint of the story.

[caption]
The real reason Cloud continues with the fight to protect the planet is to settle things with Sephiroth.

*
There are many occasions when Cloud is caught up in the moment and dons a disguise, such as when infiltrating Corneo's Mansion or when slipping into the Shinra parade. Despite his reluctance, for some reason no one around him catches on. Perhaps the reason he was able to keep up the SOLDIER act in front of the team was not merely because of Jenova's powers, but also his natural acting talents?

[caption]
Maybe Corneo didn't catch on because he was acting like a woman so well.

HA! They didn't even mention Tifa! She can't be that important to Cloud if she's not even mentioned in his profile! DOUBLE HA! "This persona was created from a mix of the memories of a SOLDIER named Zack, Cloud's close friend, and his own nature of wanting to avoid other people."~! Aerith really did know the real Cloud! Now all you Cloti retards can shut your faaaaaceeeees~!

TRIPLE HA! Cloud being able to act like a woman is ttly from taking on Zack's personality!

 

[Madame Mayor]

Quoting it again because Isabella is right that some times it needs repeating. Everytime people bring up the "she loved Cloud more, she was over Zack" crap, I just can't believe they continue to ignore what's been said on the subject:

"Aerith's feelings for Zack explain why she acts the way she does around Cloud in FFVII." -- CC Ultimania

I would also like to know how you fall in love with someone you never get to actually know. No one's been able to answer that one either. Sure the confused feelings probably don't just vanish once she finds out who he really is (hence why she says he's her beloved in COLW), but how that's suppose to compare to what we are told and shown about her relationship with Zack?

Celes, or anyone else who has it, do you have that "Irreplaceable" quote handy? XP

Also:

It's really all thanks to Brookie, because she sent me these books in the first place. x3 They are filled with pretty and it makes me smile. c:

What can I say, I love spoiling you. <33

 

[Ryushikaze]

Is Aerith an atheist? I think that's probably the most important point we need to look at, in regards to this subject.

And what are Zack's thoughts on yaoi? That's probably a close second.

Aerith worships the church of the Atom.

Aerith is a Cetra. I don't think one is capable of claiming atheism when one can hear dead spirits.

Au contraire. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in gods. Atheism and afterlifes are technically perfectly compatible.

He doesn't like to talk about it because Aerith's collection is bigger.

She's been a fangirl her entire life.
Also, because he's part of the collection.

Arsed. I occasionally can be it

Not that this is really much new here. There wasn't anything for me to twist around and lie about. Also I have no idea where to put this (being Not Very Interesting, Really), so here it goes until then.

Spoiler

A swordsman who claimed to have been a member of "SOLDIER", the Shinra Company's elite fighting force. In actuality he was nothing more than a mere grunt, a false persona formed as a result of having Jenova cells implanted in his body, and he believed himself to be a former SOLDIER. His assistance with the anti-Shinra organization "AVALANCHE" leads him on a journey to protect the planet.
Several times along the way, he finds himself unable to understand who he is. He continues the journey as he battles these doubts, but when he finds himself before his arch nemesis Sephiroth he breaks down completely. After being separated from this team mates is contracted mako poisoning, but in his mental realm he confronts his past and discovers the truth. After regaining his true self, he once again joined the battle to save the planet.

[caption]
He is proud and dislikes getting to know people, but in fact has a insecure personality, leading him to use isolation to try and protect himself.

[caption]
The pain that strikes Cloud when hearing the strange voices is the result of the clash between his original personality and his false personality.

-----

*
In the early parts of the story, Cloud was unconsciously playing out the persona of "ex-SOLDIER Cloud", contrary to his true character, due to the effects of the experiments he underwent 5 years previously. This persona was created from a mix of the memories of a SOLDIER named Zack, Cloud's close friend, and his own nature of wanting to avoid other people. Cloud was not originally the cool hero, but shy, lacking in self-confidence, and awkward around people.

[caption]
After regaining his true self, he shows some slightly unflattering sides to himself, such as his motion sickness.

*
To the young Cloud, Sephiroth was a hero and someone he looked up to, but after Sephiroth burnt down Nibelheim 5 years ago he became a sworn enemy who took away Cloud's hometown. However he is unaware that, because of the Jenova cells within his body, he ends up doing Sephiroth's bidding up until the midpoint of the story.

[caption]
The real reason Cloud continues with the fight to protect the planet is to settle things with Sephiroth.

*
There are many occasions when Cloud is caught up in the moment and dons a disguise, such as when infiltrating Corneo's Mansion or when slipping into the Shinra parade. Despite his reluctance, for some reason no one around him catches on. Perhaps the reason he was able to keep up the SOLDIER act in front of the team was not merely because of Jenova's powers, but also his natural acting talents?

[caption]
Maybe Corneo didn't catch on because he was acting like a woman so well.

Thankee. A few handy quotes 'The real reason he fights is Sephiroth, Fake and Real

HA! They didn't even mention Tifa! She can't be that important to Cloud if she's not even mentioned in his profile! DOUBLE HA! "This persona was created from a mix of the memories of a SOLDIER named Zack, Cloud's close friend, and his own nature of wanting to avoid other people."~! Aerith really did know the real Cloud! Now all you Cloti retards can shut your faaaaaceeeees~!

I can't even follow the fake logic of that.
I do like how it explicitly contrasts between his Fake persona on the outside and the real persona underneath.

TRIPLE HA! Cloud being able to act like a woman is ttly from taking on Zack's personality!

:: Pats head:: Not too much now. It's dangerous.

 

[Loxetta]

Au contraire. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in gods. Atheism and afterlifes are technically perfectly compatible.

I thought atheism was a disbelief in religion/spiritual concepts in general, including afterlife stuffs.

.......Still, don't really see Aerith as an atheist. Agnostic, mayhaps, unless she knows of Minerva well enough to view her as the 'face' of the Lifestream.

But I dunno. I don't know that much about theistic terminology an' shit so I should keep my mouth shut before any stupid falls out.

She's been a fangirl her entire life.
Also, because he's part of the collection.

I don't even know which obvious joke to choose in response to that.

I can't even follow the fake logic of that.
I do like how it explicitly contrasts between his Fake persona on the outside and the real persona underneath.

:: Pats head:: Not too much now. It's dangerous.

It's like pink Chloraseptic spray. Even when the feeling returns, I won't be able to get rid of the aftertaste for days.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

a false persona formed as a result of having Jenova cells implanted in his body

the clash between his original personality and his false personality

Cloud was unconsciously playing out the persona of "ex-SOLDIER Cloud", contrary to his true character

What? Aeris knew the real Cloud? What? Cloud wasn't messed up as fuck?
I don't understand why people still contest this. It was made blatantly obvious in the original game itself.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I thought atheism was a disbelief in religion/spiritual concepts in general, including afterlife stuffs.

No, the two go hand in hand, but there are 'atheistic religions', with afterlives and spirits but not 'dieties'

.......Still, don't really see Aerith as an atheist. Agnostic, mayhaps, unless she knows of Minerva well enough to view her as the 'face' of the Lifestream.

But I dunno. I don't know that much about theistic terminology an' shit so I should keep my mouth shut before any stupid falls out.

Aerith worships at the altar of the freaky horizontal mambo day glo edible undies.
It's a very progressive religion.

I don't even know which obvious joke to choose in response to that.

Choose 'em all.

It's like pink Chloraseptic spray. Even when the feeling returns, I won't be able to get rid of the aftertaste for days.

Quite.