LTD Who did Aerith love?

[AerithLives]

Hmmm. Im still not convinced. I think Aeris did love Cloud. She pretty much shot down Zack "on the way to a smile". Their relationship was a long time ago and she had many years to get over him...which i think she did. Though she never really got over being hurt by him. I think also from a corporate point of view it would be a better story of Aeris and Tifa both loved Cloud. Final Fantasy seems to be at its best when its tragic. Who knows but thats what i am going with. I think Aeris is definatly better for Cloud (as says Clouds mother! and mums know best!).

 

[Tifabelle]

When was Aerith hurt by Zack? When he died and didn't return? Yeah, I guess I would be pretty pissed about that too. kerwat

 

[Ⓐaron]

Shit's complicated, She loves both.

/thread.

Exactly. There's no reason a person can't love two people; happens all the time in real life. And there's plenty of evidence that this is exactly what has happened in Aerith's case.

 

[Celes Chere]

When was Aerith hurt by Zack? When he died and didn't return? Yeah, I guess I would be pretty pissed about that too. kerwat

Well, she was hurt in the way that it broke her heart he never came back. Elmyra mentions this... otherwise Zack has never intentionally hurt Aerith. And I still believe Aerith knew that Zack was dead at the end of CC. She'd have to be oblivious not to, because EVERYONE else knew. And there's hintage of it as well.

 

[AerithLives]

Well, she was hurt in the way that it broke her heart he never came back. Elmyra mentions this... otherwise Zack has never intentionally hurt Aerith. And I still believe Aerith knew that Zack was dead at the end of CC. She'd have to be oblivious not to, because EVERYONE else knew. And there's hintage of it as well.

Exactly. He hurt her by no fault of his own. She didnt know this till many years after. By this time she probably got over him. Anyway it says in "the maiden who travels the planet" that she loved Cloud more than her first love....Zack.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Anyway it says in "the maiden who travels the planet" that she loved Cloud more than her first love....Zack.

Maiden isn't canon.

 

[Marle]

Hmmm. Im still not convinced. I think Aeris did love Cloud.

Not what we're arguing. Aerith most definitely loved Cloud. If she didn't, it would have saved everyone fourteen years of drama, hate and rage. But she did and so did Tifa and thus the LTD dilemma.

She loved Zack. No questioning that, either. He was not a crush, he was not a fling. He was her 'first love'. End of.

Now, who did she love more? That's a question I'd love to get an answer for. :T

 

[Ⓐaron]

Now, who did she love more? That's a question I'd love to get an answer for. :T

I doubt there's one answer. I suspect it probably swings from Zack to Cloud and back again throughout the course of the compilation.

 

[Tennyo]

If I might add, I don't think it really matters whom Aerith loved more. She can't have a proper relationship with anyone in the Lifestream anyway. She kind of had a spiritual-guide type thing going on in AC/C, but that's it. At the end I got the firm impression that both her and Zack are off to dissolve into the Lifestream and won't come back.

 

[Celes Chere]

She can't have a proper relationship with anyone in the Lifestream anyway.

But Zack is in the Lifestream... And he can get internet!

By this time she probably got over him.

I don't agree. In CC he bought Aerith that ribbon, and she promised to wear pink the next time they meet (which was said right befor he was never seen again) and she's dressed like that after four years... I'm skeptical. I don't believe there's any solid proof she started getting over Zack until her date scene with Cloud.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not what we're arguing. Aerith most definitely loved Cloud. If she didn't, it would have saved everyone fourteen years of drama, hate and rage. But she did and so did Tifa and thus the LTD dilemma.

Counterpoint: LTDs have existed in fandoms even when one of the parties involved wanted nothing to do with either of the other two romantically, and was actually shoving them together. Gundam Wing comes to mind. But that was crackship central.

She loved Zack. No questioning that, either. He was not a crush, he was not a fling. He was her 'first love'. End of.

Now, who did she love more? That's a question I'd love to get an answer for. :T

Mukki.

I doubt there's one answer. I suspect it probably swings from Zack to Cloud and back again throughout the course of the compilation.

Or the time of day. Or whoever's keister she'd seen more recently.

If I might add, I don't think it really matters whom Aerith loved more. She can't have a proper relationship with anyone in the Lifestream anyway. She kind of had a spiritual-guide type thing going on in AC/C, but that's it. At the end I got the firm impression that both her and Zack are off to dissolve into the Lifestream and won't come back.

And wouldn't you know it, that's exactly their shared fetish.

 

[Tifabelle]

Mukki.

CLUKKI IS CANON BITCHES.

 

[Ryushikaze]

CLUKKI IS CANON BITCHES.

Wrong. Aekki is canon.

 

[Dashell]

Maiden isn't canon.

Except that you have absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever. Only speculation on your part.

And even if it isn't, Dismantled says the same thing... and CoLW says she loves Cloud as well. As others said, she loves both.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Except that you have absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever. Only speculation on your part.

There's plenty of evidence that it isn't canon, such as the fact that whenever Squenix complies lists of the material that makes up the Compilation, Maiden is never included. That's hardly "only speculation on my part." There's also the fact that it contains massive internal contradictions with the rest of the Compilation, more so than even Last Order. Really it's arguably by far the least canonical of the many materials SE has put out, and it wasn't even written by a SE employee. I would provide more information about this, but the search feature is giving me MySQL errors.

And even if it isn't, Dismantled says the same thing... and CoLW says she loves Cloud as well. As others said, she loves both.

I wasn't disputing that; in fact, I very explicitly stated that it's clear she loves both of them in several of my later posts in this very thread. Please don't read more into my posts than I actually stated in them.

 

[Dashell]

There's plenty of evidence that it isn't canon, such as the fact that whenever Squenix complies lists of the material that makes up the Compilation, Maiden is never included. That's hardly "only speculation on my part."

But you know what IS listed? Last Order, which they later on said is NOT part of the Compilation... so if one thing that's listed many times isn't part of the compilation, clearly how often something is listed has no bearing on if it's part of the Compilation or not. Nothing else in the Omega ever gets questioned, nothing. I don't see why Maiden is the one exception.

EDIT
Also there's a difference between "not part of the compilation" and "not canon" While maiden may NOT be part of the Compilation, it's still canon.

I wasn't disputing that; in fact, I very explicitly stated that it's clear she loves both of them in several of my later posts in this very thread. Please don't read more into my posts than I actually stated in them.

That was directed to whoever it was that said the thing about Maiden actually.

 

[Ⓐaron]

But you know what IS listed? Last Order, which they later on said is NOT part of the Compilation... so if one thing that's listed many times isn't part of the compilation, clearly how often something is listed has no bearing on if it's part of the Compilation or not. Nothing else in the Omega ever gets questioned, nothing. I don't see why Maiden is the one exception.

Last Order isn't considered canon either, and Squenix's later statements on what constitutes canon can legitimately be considered to supersede their earlier statements. The most recent listing of canonical materials, as far as I am aware, excludes both Last Order and Maiden, which makes sense, since both of them clearly contradict the established canon in numerous places.

Also there's a difference between "not part of the compilation" and "not canon" While maiden may NOT be part of the Compilation, it's still canon.

See my edit. The fact that it clearly contradicts sources that are very explicitly listed as canonical Compilation entries in many, many places, in addition to being excluded from every list Square Enix has made of canonical materials (not just a list of the Compilation), makes it clear that it can't be trusted as a source of information. Ergo, it can't be considered canon. A case could be made for details in Maiden that don't contradict details in other sources being considered semi-canon, but in cases where it contradicts the canon, the canon is clearly meant to override it. Therefore it cannot legitimately be considered canon.

That was directed to whoever it was that said the thing about Maiden actually.

Ah.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Regardless of whether it's canon or not, no one at SE gives half a shit about it.

DESPITE being culled from the compilation, LO is worth discussing and noting in the U10 and U20.

Maiden has never had that luxury. Never mentioned, period. Never referenced. Never considered. A signficant chunk of it was quietly retconned by DoC for crying out loud. DIRGE.
And then there's some of the strange metaphysical issues between it and COLW that make Aerith look like a bit of a dumbass in Maiden.

Let me put it another way- in the history of Star Trek, only one episode has ever been so bad as to be 'decanonized' officially. However, several episodes have been quietly forgotten and retconned out of existence. Maiden is like these later episodes. If SE is aware of it, they're trying to pretend like they aren't.
It is Novella non Grata.

 

[Dashell]

Last Order isn't considered canon either, and Squenix's later statements on what constitutes canon can legitimately be considered to supersede their earlier statements. The most recent listing of canonical materials, as far as I am aware, excludes both Last Order and Maiden, which makes sense, since both of them clearly contradict the established canon in numerous places.

I didn't mean to say that Last Order wasn't canon. You said

There's plenty of evidence that it isn't canon, such as the fact that whenever Squenix complies lists of the material that makes up the Compilation, Maiden is never included.

To which I replied:

But you know what IS listed? Last Order, which they later on said is NOT part of the Compilation... so if one thing that's listed many times isn't part of the compilation, clearly how often something is listed has no bearing on if it's part of the Compilation or not.

At this time we were talking about it being part of the Compilation, not it being canon.

See my edit. The fact that it clearly contradicts sources that are very explicitly listed as canonical Compilation entries in many, many places, in addition to being excluded from every list Square Enix has made of canonical materials (not just a list of the Compilation), makes it clear that it can't be trusted as a source of information. Ergo, it can't be considered canon. A case could be made for details in Maiden that don't contradict details in other sources being considered semi-canon, but in cases where it contradicts the canon, the canon is clearly meant to override it. Therefore it cannot legitimately be considered canon.

Wait there's a list of canonical compilation entries? Is this the same as things that are part of the Compilation or not? If there was another list, I wasn't aware of it. So just to clarify, are we talking about the list of Compilation entries?

Also where does Maiden contradict anything "canon?"

Regardless of whether it's canon or not, no one at SE gives half a shit about it.

Okay but then why would they publish it in an official book that's stated to be "The literal version of FFVII?" if they didn't care about it? You don't get much higher than that IMO

Maiden has never had that luxury. Never mentioned, period. Never referenced. Never considered. A signficant chunk of it was quietly retconned by DoC for crying out loud. DIRGE.

To my knowledge nothing in Maiden contradicted Dirge. Which part are you talking about?

And then there's some of the strange metaphysical issues between it and COLW that make Aerith look like a bit of a dumbass in Maiden.

again, which part?

 

[Ⓐaron]

As far as I'm aware, the lists of Compilation material are also intended to represent the material that can be considered primary sources of canon within FFVII's universe; Lost Order's contradictions with the canon were why it was taken out. Though why it took Squenix so long to acknowledge this is anyone's guess.

As for how exactly Maiden contradicts the canon, someone else will have to handle it because I haven't actually read it. However, I have been told that it contradicts the entire premise of Dirge of Cerberus and many important details of Crisis Core (in particular, many details of Aerith's relationship with Zack, if I remember correctly), which shouldn't be surprising since as far as I know it was written before both games.

Tennyo also made another argument for its possible contradiction of canon that had already been established here:

I think it can also be argued that MWTP also contradicts AC. Aerith returns to the planet in the story. Would she be able to come back for AC? It may be a debatable point, but it's still a point.

And I didn't mean to say you said Last Order wasn't canon; my point is, it isn't canon, both because of its exclusion from lists of canonical materials and because of its contradictions with the canon. So that makes it roughly comparable to Maiden, except Maiden was never listed on lists of canonical material

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay but then why would they publish it in an official book that's stated to be "The literal version of FFVII?" if they didn't care about it? You don't get much higher than that IMO

Benny got asked to fill pages. He filled pages without oversight or guidance. They then ignored what he wrote. It has not seen reference one by Nojima, by Nomura, by Kitase, or any other book, including any other entry in the book it appeared past the end of. Yes, PAST THE INDEX.

To my knowledge nothing in Maiden contradicted Dirge. Which part are you talking about?

Megalomaniacal fucker. Sired another Megalomaniacal fucker. Was still alive at a point well after Maiden said he was dead at. And no, I don't mean the fucking download version, so don't bring up that that was a copy. I don't mean the copy. I mean the still living body that managed to trip a bioscanner.

again, which part?

'All the Cetra, even my mom are long dissolved and I won't last nearly as long' vs 'Whoa, better go round up some Cetra to help me'

And you have completely ignored quiet retconning. There's really embarrassing shit in the old Marvel SW comic books that has never been declared acanon, but no one would seriously treat as such. The Sub-C universe destroying billiards doomsday device, for example. Or the psychic chinchillas.

 

[Dashell]

As far as I'm aware, the list of Compilation material is intended to represent the material that can be considered canon; Lost Order's contradictions with the canon were why it was taken out.

.....

And I didn't mean to say you said Last Order wasn't canon; my point is, it isn't canon, both because of its exclusion from lists of canonical materials and because of its contradictions with the canon.

But it WAS listed as part of the Compilation. The UO listed it. It was never "taken out" as you said. They listed it and it wasn't until... the 10th AU I believe that they list it and say "This isn't part of the Compilation."

... but this basically implies that only entries of the Compilation are canon and I don't believe that's true.

As for how exactly Maiden contradicts the canon, someone else will have to handle it because I haven't actually read it. However, I have been told that it contradicts the entire premise of Dirge of Cerberus and many important details of Crisis Core (in particular, many details of Aerith's relationship with Zack, if I remember correctly), which shouldn't be surprising since as far as I know it was written before both games.

As far as I know you heard very wrong. Everything is in line with DoC and Crisis Core but.. yeah if someone else wants to step forward and discuss these contradictions I'd be happy to hear them.

 

[Ⓐaron]

But it WAS listed as part of the Compilation. The UO listed it. It was never "taken out" as you said. They listed it and it wasn't until... the 10th AU I believe that they list it and say "This isn't part of the Compilation."

I was talking about the most recent list of canonical materials. Last Order isn't in it.

... but this basically implies that only entries of the Compilation are canon and I don't believe that's true.

Believe what you want, but when Squenix doesn't even acknowledge the existence of a piece of third-party writing that contradicts established canon in multiple places I think it's pretty safe to infer what they intend by releasing those lists.

As far as I know you heard very wrong. Everything is in line with DoC and Crisis Core but.. yeah if someone else wants to step forward and discuss these contradictions I'd be happy to hear them.

Ryu just did.

 

[Dashell]

Benny got asked to fill pages. He filled pages without oversight or guidance. They then ignored what he wrote. It has not seen reference one by Nojima, by Nomura, by Kitase, or any other book, including any other entry in the book it appeared past the end of. Yes, PAST THE INDEX.

I'm sure it wasn't just "fill pages"
They wanted him to write a story since he's written for them before. It just makes no sense to me that they wanted him to write a story that ... was just fanfiction. What would the point of that be?

Megalomaniacal fucker. Sired another Megalomaniacal fucker. Was still alive at a point well after Maiden said he was dead at. And no, I don't mean the fucking download version, so don't bring up that that was a copy. I don't mean the copy. I mean the still living body that managed to trip a bioscanner.

Wasn't this discussed in another thread? I could have sworn Tres and someone came to the conclusion that the timeline of each game didn't contradict but I'll have to look for it.

'All the Cetra, even my mom are long dissolved and I won't last nearly as long' vs 'Whoa, better go round up some Cetra to help me'

This?

*Contradiction claim #3: Maiden says that all the Cetra have diffused into the Lifestream yet in Case of Lifestream White, Aerith is able to rally many of the Cetra to help her.

Yet again, it sounds like a legitimate contradiction, but again, it is not. While her mother, the last living Cetra before her, is said to have become one with the planet, the fact is also that the Cetra Aerith gathers in Case of Lifestream White are said to be fragments of consciousness. Here is a quote from CoLW:

Having lost the core of their emotions, the surface animosity disappeared. The woman had found a solution, however more and more spirits steeped in spite appeared, and it was too much for her to bear. She rushed through the Lifestream in search of other souls to help her. Ancients, on the verge of diffusing. These fragments of consciousness accepted her undertaking.

In other words, the Cetra she gathers in CoLW were already diluted and weren't really spirits anymore. They were fragments. It wasn't until CoLW that she figures out how to bring them back into a conscious form to help her. If anything, this seems to back up what Maiden has presented and tells us that even though the Cetra had been diffused in Maiden, Aerith found a way to have them help her in CoLW.

Conclusion on contradiction claim #3: This is not a contradiction with the original game or with the wider compilation and is actually CONSISTENT between both stories.

I was talking about the most recent list of canonical materials. Last Order isn't in it.

Ahh I haven't seen it... but is Dissidia in it? Do you consider Dissidia to be non canon then?

Believe what you want, but when Squenix doesn't even acknowledge the existence of a piece of third-party writing that contradicts established canon in multiple places I think it's pretty safe to infer what they intend by releasing those lists.

Except it doesn't contradict. I have a list of supposed contradictions from Maiden and how they aren't really contradictions. This is what I've been saying. I'll look into the Hojo thing but I could have sworn that it turned out to be another false contradiction.

 

[Tennyo]

Originally the first scene of DoC was meteorfall, thus making Hojo's presence in Maiden a conflict with canon.

The fact that the placement of this scene was changed has nothing to do with Maiden, and all to do because these events to make much sense taking place during Meteorfall.

I think it's rather obvious SE isn't really caring that much about it.

Was it even sanctioned by anyone on the FFVII staff? Or did the suits at Square just tell their then-publisher to make something up to bring in the cash flow?

I'm sure it wasn't just "fill pages"
They wanted him to write a story since he's written for them before. It just makes no sense to me that they wanted him to write a story that ... was just fanfiction. What would the point of that be?

Money.

This was SquareSOFT.

The Compilation did not exist. It wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of any of the FFVII staff.

Make up a story revolving around the events of FFVII in order to sell more copies of the book as a marketing ploy and make money.

That's probably all it was.