Mass Effect Series
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Mr. Thou
- AKA
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I agree with Force. If I can't Paragon mind trick the courtroom then I'm outing that bastard. Good intentions or not, Tali was being manipulated by her father all the way to his dying breath and she was in no position to think clearly about the subject. There was no time to let her come to her senses. In that emotional state, I can't accept that the right thing to do is let her talk me into lying for her so she can fall on her sword for a crime she didn't commit. Besides, there was far more than Rael's reputation at stake; it wasn't just about being a good friend. Not to mention the families whose loved ones were brutally murdered in the name of yet another atrocity against the Geth deserved to know the truth.
Does she make a great argument afterward about how much more fucked the situation is by allowing the evidence, and what a hypocrite and a terrible friend you are? Yes she does a fantastic job, then but she sounds like every other highly intelligent friend I've ever had when they're emotionally distraught. And it's not like the ends justify the means; letting Tali get exiled doesn't stop the Quarians from being divided and starting a selfish war at the worst possible time.
Tali's blind loyalty to her people despite the horrible things her people do is a legit reason to dislike her. But nearly every character is written so that I can legitimately love or hate them, and the games let me decide for myself, and that's why I'm so attached to them.
Does she make a great argument afterward about how much more fucked the situation is by allowing the evidence, and what a hypocrite and a terrible friend you are? Yes she does a fantastic job, then but she sounds like every other highly intelligent friend I've ever had when they're emotionally distraught. And it's not like the ends justify the means; letting Tali get exiled doesn't stop the Quarians from being divided and starting a selfish war at the worst possible time.
Tali's blind loyalty to her people despite the horrible things her people do is a legit reason to dislike her. But nearly every character is written so that I can legitimately love or hate them, and the games let me decide for myself, and that's why I'm so attached to them.
Lex
Administrator
I don't really think there's a need to "take my opinion to the extreme", this isn't a "if she told you to jump off a bridge would you" scenario Force, it's simpler. She requests you to keep her father's reputation intact, and I believe strongly that it's what should be done because that's what she's asking. I don't think it's unreasonable at all.
Yes, other people died on the ship. Is it better for them to believe it was an accident/ geth attack or know it was Tali's father that caused it? I don't think for a second that telling the Quarian summit about Tali's father is appropriate.
I can get behind people thinking telling them the truth is the right thing to do, but I would never hold it against her for being angry when she spent the entire mission begging you not to tell anyone.
Person 1: Please don't tell the group this, it's horrible and completely unnecessary. PLEASE
Person 2: Tells everyone.
Person 1: WHY DID YOU DO THAT
Person 2: how dare you be annoyed
That doesn't quite compute to me, sorry.
Yes, other people died on the ship. Is it better for them to believe it was an accident/ geth attack or know it was Tali's father that caused it? I don't think for a second that telling the Quarian summit about Tali's father is appropriate.
I can get behind people thinking telling them the truth is the right thing to do, but I would never hold it against her for being angry when she spent the entire mission begging you not to tell anyone.
Person 1: Please don't tell the group this, it's horrible and completely unnecessary. PLEASE
Person 2: Tells everyone.
Person 1: WHY DID YOU DO THAT
Person 2: how dare you be annoyed
That doesn't quite compute to me, sorry.
Mantichorus
"I've seen enough."
- AKA
- Kris; Mantichorus; Sam Vimes; Neku Sakuraba; Koki Kariya; Hazama; CuChulainn; Yu Narukami; Mewtwo; Rival Silver; Suicune; Kanata; Professor Oak; The Brigadier; VIII; The Engineer
Actually, [Rally the Crowd] is the "neutral" option on the dialogue wheel. 
It allows you to complete the mission with Tali's loyalty and without her being exiled, without a reputation check. However, it's only possible if you hand Veetor directly to Tali at Freedom's Progress and save Reegar at Haestrom (Tali's recruitment mission). Otherwise it falls flat on its face without a recovering Veetor to step up and back you up, and Reegar to back Veetor up and say (quote) "Tali's done more for this fleet than you assholes ever will!"
And as a slightly off-topic aside: I always say I represented one of my people.
It allows you to complete the mission with Tali's loyalty and without her being exiled, without a reputation check. However, it's only possible if you hand Veetor directly to Tali at Freedom's Progress and save Reegar at Haestrom (Tali's recruitment mission). Otherwise it falls flat on its face without a recovering Veetor to step up and back you up, and Reegar to back Veetor up and say (quote) "Tali's done more for this fleet than you assholes ever will!"And as a slightly off-topic aside: I always say I represented one of my people.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I think you're making light of throwing her career away. A career which, by the way, may well be crucial in the fight against the reapers. And the point of taking it to the extreme was to a establish whether something regarding her well-being that you felt strongly about would ever prevent you from "respecting her wishes." If going against them would 'compute' under any circumstances.
Also I didn't say "how dare she be annoyed," Lex, come on. I said it pisses me off that I means I can't save both races in 3 (and her, summarily) because of it when being "renegade" was not my rationale.
And I already I said I wouldn't actually say nothing to her pleas before hand and then just blab it out. I'd protest from the start.
So people died and it's only Tali's business? It's not appropriate? Okay.
Also I didn't say "how dare she be annoyed," Lex, come on. I said it pisses me off that I means I can't save both races in 3 (and her, summarily) because of it when being "renegade" was not my rationale.
ForceStealer said:
And I already I said I wouldn't actually say nothing to her pleas before hand and then just blab it out. I'd protest from the start.
Prince Lex said:
So people died and it's only Tali's business? It's not appropriate? Okay.
I see, but regardless, it's irrelevant because I didn't have that option as I didn't save Reegar/
Lex
Administrator
I don't see the necessity behind telling people who are dealing with the death of a population "oh by the way, you know that guy you respected, he's responsible for killing your family" when there's no reason to. There is literally no reason to do that.
By presenting the evidence Tali is also indirectly responsible for the deaths of the people on the ship, so to be perfectly honest I'm surprised she still becomes an admiral in ME3 in spite of that evidence being handed over, seeing that her father was such a huge criminal and all.
I don't think I'm making light of throwing her career away. I think not ruining her father's reputation more actively secures her within the Quarian hierarchy, because the rest of the Quarians in that case don't see her as the daughter of an (unintentional) mass murderer.
EDIT: Long story short, I would have tried every other option before handing that evidence over. If it became absolutely necessary and there was no other option, then fine. Thankfully it's not necessary to use that evidence at all
By presenting the evidence Tali is also indirectly responsible for the deaths of the people on the ship, so to be perfectly honest I'm surprised she still becomes an admiral in ME3 in spite of that evidence being handed over, seeing that her father was such a huge criminal and all.
I don't think I'm making light of throwing her career away. I think not ruining her father's reputation more actively secures her within the Quarian hierarchy, because the rest of the Quarians in that case don't see her as the daughter of an (unintentional) mass murderer.
EDIT: Long story short, I would have tried every other option before handing that evidence over. If it became absolutely necessary and there was no other option, then fine. Thankfully it's not necessary to use that evidence at all
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Whether it's a necessity or not, the event is not just Tali's business and no one else's. You can't tell me I didn't have the right because it's her business. And people very frequently want to know exactly what happened to their loved ones. Some may rather not know, others would likely be grateful to know the truth.
Not really. Presumably the Quarians had no problem with her sending inert Geth parts for study. Quarians must not hold people responsible for the actions of their families. She probably wouldn't be an admiral if they ever discovered she covered it up.
Not ruining her father's reputation gets her exiled [in the options that were available to me]. That doesn't actively secure her in anything.
Obviously rallying the crowd, or the paragon and renegade options are preferable. The Renegade option, in particular, is one of the strongest arguments for Jennifer Hale's peerless depiction of Shepard. But if someone I cared about and was currently shocked and grieving asked me to destroy their livelihood for the sake of the reputation of a dead man (who betrayed her trust), I would fight that tooth and nail. And I don't think that's cold, or as dickish as you've made it sound. That's all I'm saying.
Everything I hold against her are merely because of Mass Effect's idiosyncrasies. I have NO opportunity to argue my point with her (before or after). Because of this she never forgives me to the point of "loyalty," until proven that I was right. After which I arbitrarily can no longer save her (without sacrificing a race or vice versa).
It's the problem with every game with a "black and white" morality system. ME does a great job of giving you 'grey' choices, but they still have to be classified into 'good' and 'bad'.
Not really. Presumably the Quarians had no problem with her sending inert Geth parts for study. Quarians must not hold people responsible for the actions of their families. She probably wouldn't be an admiral if they ever discovered she covered it up.
Not ruining her father's reputation gets her exiled [in the options that were available to me]. That doesn't actively secure her in anything.
Obviously rallying the crowd, or the paragon and renegade options are preferable. The Renegade option, in particular, is one of the strongest arguments for Jennifer Hale's peerless depiction of Shepard. But if someone I cared about and was currently shocked and grieving asked me to destroy their livelihood for the sake of the reputation of a dead man (who betrayed her trust), I would fight that tooth and nail. And I don't think that's cold, or as dickish as you've made it sound. That's all I'm saying.
Everything I hold against her are merely because of Mass Effect's idiosyncrasies. I have NO opportunity to argue my point with her (before or after). Because of this she never forgives me to the point of "loyalty," until proven that I was right. After which I arbitrarily can no longer save her (without sacrificing a race or vice versa).
It's the problem with every game with a "black and white" morality system. ME does a great job of giving you 'grey' choices, but they still have to be classified into 'good' and 'bad'.
Lex
Administrator
Finally Yop is enjoying Mass Effect, hallelujah. What's your favourite part of the game been so far? Grunt is a lot of fun
I've already said I can get behind people deciding to present the evidence, I just don't see why a person would choose that over the other options (if they were there). We're clearly not going to agree on whether telling everyone about it is the right thing to do.
On the one hand, I would be furious if I found out later that information like that had been kept from me if say my brother had died on the ship. On the other, I'd be none the wiser so it wouldn't matter. And again I wouldn't be choosing to present the evidence if I were personally in that situation if there was a way to avoid it both because I don't think it's necessary and because my friend has asked me not to. It's really that simple to me. If some people want to know and some people don't want to know, when's the cut-off point for telling people and not telling people? What if a majority of them didn't want to know? What if a majority of people did? Since there are ways to avoid giving the evidence I don't believe it's for Shepard to decide against Tali. The loyalty missions are about building trust, and the question is if you trust Tali enough to do what she wants you to do, and doing so earns you her true loyalty. If you don't trust Tali, then handing over that information is probably the right thing to do.
On top of everything else I've said, you can't be surprised that the decision had repercussions since it's a loyalty mission for Tali and you're directly ignoring what she's been pleading for you to do. I suppose my only real disagreement with you is that you got annoyed with Tali for a game mechanic when I think she's a very likeable character. And no matter what decision you make at any point in these games, even if it results in say most of the characters dying in the final ME2 mission, you will be told you were right. To me the most correct choice is always the one with the best outcome, and to the game that's not handing the evidence over.
Ignoring the fact that it's a game and thinking about the morality of the whole thing, if I knew there was a way to save her without presenting the evidence that is always the option I'd take because that's what she wants me to do. For all we know Tali could come clean to the board on her own afterwards. And that is what I did on my first playthrough (without knowing about any of the large-scale repercussions or using a guide, since this was pre-ME3's release). I think I rallied the crowd but I'm not 100% sure, it may have been the charm option.
On the one hand, I would be furious if I found out later that information like that had been kept from me if say my brother had died on the ship. On the other, I'd be none the wiser so it wouldn't matter. And again I wouldn't be choosing to present the evidence if I were personally in that situation if there was a way to avoid it both because I don't think it's necessary and because my friend has asked me not to. It's really that simple to me. If some people want to know and some people don't want to know, when's the cut-off point for telling people and not telling people? What if a majority of them didn't want to know? What if a majority of people did? Since there are ways to avoid giving the evidence I don't believe it's for Shepard to decide against Tali. The loyalty missions are about building trust, and the question is if you trust Tali enough to do what she wants you to do, and doing so earns you her true loyalty. If you don't trust Tali, then handing over that information is probably the right thing to do.
On top of everything else I've said, you can't be surprised that the decision had repercussions since it's a loyalty mission for Tali and you're directly ignoring what she's been pleading for you to do. I suppose my only real disagreement with you is that you got annoyed with Tali for a game mechanic when I think she's a very likeable character. And no matter what decision you make at any point in these games, even if it results in say most of the characters dying in the final ME2 mission, you will be told you were right. To me the most correct choice is always the one with the best outcome, and to the game that's not handing the evidence over.
Ignoring the fact that it's a game and thinking about the morality of the whole thing, if I knew there was a way to save her without presenting the evidence that is always the option I'd take because that's what she wants me to do. For all we know Tali could come clean to the board on her own afterwards. And that is what I did on my first playthrough (without knowing about any of the large-scale repercussions or using a guide, since this was pre-ME3's release). I think I rallied the crowd but I'm not 100% sure, it may have been the charm option.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Kasumi's mission is one of the best, it's unique.
Cthulhu
Administrator
- AKA
- Yop
The most important question that can ever be asked, have you gotten drunk yet?
Only twice,
. Sure did show that bartender.
AvecAloes
Donator
I always wanted more Kasumi. She was easily one of my favorite characters, and I wish they had done even more with her.
I was also terribly disappointed that I didn't have the option to woo her
I was REALLY hoping to get more of her in ME3, and was super excited when she showed up, but was all too disappointed when she wouldn't join my team 
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Carlie
CltrAltDelicious
- AKA
- Chloe Frazer
^Oh wow, that's one of those things I was spoiled about from game promos before ME3's release
I kept hinting what was going to happen after she finished the Mars mission but she had absolutely no clue what I was talking about.
I went into the Kasumi tag on tumblr, that was a huge mistake since some people had posted Kasumi/Jacob stuff, oh the horror.
Ami
Playing All The Stuff!
- AKA
- Amizon, Commander Shepard, Ellie, Rinoa Heartilly, Xena, Clara Oswald, Gamora, Lana Kane, Tifa Lockhart, Jodie Holmes, Chloe Price.
To be fair, I was hardly paying attention. But please continue hinting at stuff and don't spoil me because we know how
Mantichorus
"I've seen enough."
- AKA
- Kris; Mantichorus; Sam Vimes; Neku Sakuraba; Koki Kariya; Hazama; CuChulainn; Yu Narukami; Mewtwo; Rival Silver; Suicune; Kanata; Professor Oak; The Brigadier; VIII; The Engineer
I did Leviathan either just before Tuchanka or just after
, can't remember which. Does that count as way too soon? 
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the coup
Banshees
Carlie
CltrAltDelicious
- AKA
- Chloe Frazer
There's really no point in the game where you can play Leviathan without spoiling something although too early in the game like Ami almost did and you'll be spoiling too much. No matter what one of the ending spoilers will always be revealed which is not going to make it any less moronic, it probably makes it morose and there's a good chance you'll still feel the endings are a But Thou Must situation. For people who really hate spoilers I think after Thessia would be the best time to do it.
Ami
Playing All The Stuff!
- AKA
- Amizon, Commander Shepard, Ellie, Rinoa Heartilly, Xena, Clara Oswald, Gamora, Lana Kane, Tifa Lockhart, Jodie Holmes, Chloe Price.
Thanks for the advice, Carlie. I've been meaning to ask when the best point would be to get Leviathan done. Least you've given me a good place to start.
I NEED A RELEASE. MORDIN DIED! I accidentally saw this in one of Carlie's articles on BFF aaages ago, but I completely forgot it was coming. Just finished that point and now onto the Udina part.
Also, Donnelly and Daniels talking about strip poker? God, I love the banter aboard the Normandy, but those two are definitely the best to hear.
Also, Donnelly and Daniels talking about strip poker? God, I love the banter aboard the Normandy, but those two are definitely the best to hear.