Misc Star Wars Tangents

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#26
That was addressed back then:
Leia: The more you tighten your fist, the more systems will slip through your grasp.

The Empire's various atrocities galvanised people against them, they didn't need to be led by any one person.
Even then, though, someone had to take the initial step, yes? There wasn't suddenly a rebellion -- with requisite rebels ready to fight -- born out of thin air.

For that matter, as we saw in "Rogue One," it wasn't even too easy to galvanize folks then.

In any case, from what little info we have on "Resistance Reborn," it sounds like the First Order has been doing some of that grip tightening after TLJ.

He lost his mother because Watto wouldn't sell her, nothing to do with the rules of the Jedi.
I mean, Watto may have been Jedi Mind Trick-resistant, but I bet he wasn't lightsaber resistant. :awesome:

You can't have a 'culmination of the saga' while hating half of it.

Maybe the movie will prove me wrong.

I'm not doing this to troll y'all, for what it's worth. Star Wars is not my religion, by any means. I think there's a mean spirited edge to how the ST is being sold, and that's part of the reason I'm dubious of it.
It's ironic, strange, and funny all at once how different established fans can have such different assessments of the same new installments. I find myself feeling like the Sequel Trilogy has been big-time paying off things from the Prequel Trilogy and its associated media (e.g. "The Clone Wars").

That said, I do hope for -- and fully expect -- some big, overt shout-outs in TRoS. Hopefully I'm not going to be disappointed on this. XD

Wow, imagine I'd had reservations about more than one line...
D,=
 
#27
Even then, though, someone had to take the initial step, yes? There wasn't suddenly a rebellion -- with requisite rebels ready to fight -- born out of thin air.
More likely someones. The beginnings of the Rebellions seems to be basically isolated cells like Hera's, independently fighting. There's nobody saying 'I have to lead, or else rebellion doesn't happen.'

I mean, Watto may have been Jedi Mind Trick-resistant, but I bet he wasn't lightsaber resistant. :awesome:
At which point Schmi explodes from her implanted bomb. Truly a fantastic way for Anakin to begin his training at peace.

It's ironic, strange, and funny all at once how different established fans can have such different assessments of the same new installments. I find myself feeling like the Sequel Trilogy has been big-time paying off things from the Prequel Trilogy and its associated media (e.g. "The Clone Wars").
Interesting how you had to put in a caveat there about 'associated media', isn't it? Do you have anything in mind?
 
AKA
The Engineer
#28
Errr... Rvenge of the Sith (especially the novel version of it) makes it pretty clear that the Rebellion was started up by a group of Senators not long after the Empire was invented. Particularly Mon Mothma and Bail Oragana. So you have elected leaders involved in the previous government starting the Rebellion against the new government almost before the new government even gets up off the ground.

"Spontaneous" and/or "isolated cells" is never a feeling I associated with the Rebellion. It felt planned right from the get-go even in A New Hope. You've got the officially elected senator from a planet running through a blockade and it turns out she's not the only officially elected senator who is part of the Rebellion. Hell, Mon Mothma is running most of it! You don't get a Rebellion at that level of government without some serious organization going on, especially a Rebellion that was around as long as the one under the Empire.

Now maybe Palpatine let them mess around until the Death Star was ready to fire, I don't know. But until the Empire got their planet killer on-line, the Rebellion was at least operating right under the majority of the Empire's collective nose. At least as far as most run-of-the-mill Imperials would be concerned.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#30
More likely someones. The beginnings of the Rebellions seems to be basically isolated cells like Hera's, independently fighting. There's nobody saying 'I have to lead, or else rebellion doesn't happen.'
I think you're starkly misreading the line in question. I heard it with the focus being on "good people will fight." You're hearing it with the focus being on "if we lead them."

What's also being left out of your take is the preceding line: "We're not alone."

The context here being "We need help, and good people will step up if they have an example to follow."

At which point Schmi explodes from her implanted bomb. Truly a fantastic way for Anakin to begin his training at peace.
I thought those were based on distance?

Interesting how you had to put in a caveat there about 'associated media', isn't it? Do you have anything in mind?
I wasn't mentioning it as a caveat, though?
 
#31
I'm reading it as 'we're not alone (because) good people will fight if we lead them'. You're free to disagree. It's really weird to me that good people fighting is contingent on being led. What do they need an example for, and why are 'we' the only ones that can supply it? Why aren't people fighting already?

I thought those were based on distance?
All they say in TPM is "Any attempt to escape..." "and they blow you up!" There could be any number of triggers, and Qui Gon can't be sure about all of them. Gambling with Schmi's life like that would be completely irresponsible. What if the programming includes 'if certain time period passes without Master inputting authorisation code which only he knows, BOOM.' If it's easy to bypass by killing your master it kind of defeats the whole point of the transmitter in the first place.

I wasn't mentioning it as a caveat, though?
So why bring it up? I was talking about how the lack of references to the PT is unfortunate, and then you brought up the PT, and the Clone Wars, which is not the PT. It's like me bringing up Rebels as an example of an OT reference.
 
Last edited:

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#32
Picked this up today because the cover design caught my attention and the premise sounded like it might be at least a little informative to the current discussion (the "20% off" sticker didn't hurt either):




Will report if it serms like there's anything that really speaks to this conversation.

It's really weird to me that good people fighting is contingent on being led. What do they need an example for, and why are 'we' the only ones that can supply it? Why aren't people fighting already?
Some are fighting already: the very "we" we're talking about.

That's really all that makes them the "we" or an example to others. There's nothing about it so elitist (or did you see it as more delusional?) as what you seem to think.

It's not like they're being recruited into an existing apparatus and claiming that they are now going to be the "we."

Now, if you're asking why good people need a "we" to set an example, we'll go down a philosophical quicksand pit from which we will never escape. To that, let me simply point out that even in matters calling for much less courage (e.g. being the first to stand and clap), people who are considering it often need to see someone else doing it first before deciding to do so themselves.

And I mean, to have begun this conversation saying "that's not a great message," what preferable message are you proposing? "Why do I need to do it"? "Why should I concern myself with setting the example for [blank]"? "Why isn't someone else already doing it"? "Someone else will step up even if I don't"?

I'm certain you're not going for any of that, but your objection is lacking a distinct through-line for me. You're not offering up much in the way of superior alternative philosophizing to highlight by way of contrast the moral or even narrative shortcomings of this one.

All they say in TPM is "Any attempt to escape..." "and they blow you up!" There could be any number of triggers, and Qui Gon can't be sure about all of them. Gambling with Schmi's life like that would be completely irresponsible. What if the programming includes 'if certain time period passes without Master inputting authorisation code which only he knows, BOOM.' If it's easy to bypass by killing your master it kind of defeats the whole point of the transmitter in the first place.
Looking it up, the explosion of a transmitter chip seems to be primarily based on distance, so as to serve as a means of deterring running away (and possibly to deter kidnapping by other slaveowners?). There probably are other trigger mechanisms, but I'd wager all of them can be deactivated by slowly removing parts of a slaveowners' body. :awesome:

But as we've established previously, ending slavery was never on the Jedi Order's to-do-list, so that's neither here nor there.

So why bring it up?
Because TCW's part of the time period, both in its narrative and production era? And in addition to the Prequel Trilogy, its narrative and thematic elements are also included in the stuff I feel is paying off at present?

How did I make that confusing?

I was talking about how the lack of references to the PT is unfortunate, and then you brought up the PT, and the Clone Wars, which is not the PT. It's like me bringing up Rebels as an example of an OT reference.
Not ... really?

It's much more like, during a discussion of a hypothetical, episodic sequel to "Dirge of Cerberus," one participant comments that FFVII EC only seems to have concern for the original game, "Before Crisis," and "Crisis Core"; to which another participant comments that they feel "EC is also providing payoff on things from AC(C) and its associated media (e.g. OtWtAS)."
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#33
And I mean, to have begun this conversation saying "that's not a great message," what preferable message are you proposing? "Why do I need to do it"? "Why should I concern myself with setting the example for [blank]"? "Why isn't someone else already doing it"? "Someone else will step up even if I don't"?
To me, this would have been preferable.


Something like the sentiment Cable is expressing here. I feel it's better to portray the First Order as self-defeating rather then as though if the 15~ occupants of the Millenium Falcon don't do something, the First Order will achieve an eternally successful dominion of the galaxy, no one else in any of the millions of civilisations that the First Order has just now decided to claim rule over in the past two weeks can or will do something.
 
Last edited:

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#34
@Roger
Laying it on a little thick, aren't you? XD

Context matters for a lot. Assuming the line or at least the sentiment even shows up in the actual movie, we're presumably assessing something said in a convo between Poe and someone else in the Resistance. Something meant to be taken as encouragement or reassurance, not something akin to the defiant final words said by a hero to a villainous conquerer before falling in battle -- where a "someone else will do it" mentality makes more sense and would actually be desired.

"Hey, don't sweat it. Even if we don't do anything, others will come along eventually who will. I mean, yeah, a lot more people might die or get enslaved in the meantime while the galaxy waits for other people to be so arrogant as to step up and call themselves 'we.' But at least we won't be offending anyone with our willingness to take initiative."

Poe Dameron, folks, the great motivational speaker. :awesomonster:
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#35
@Roger
Laying it on a little thick, aren't you? XD

Context matters for a lot. Assuming the line or at least the sentiment even shows up in the actual movie, we're presumably assessing something said in a convo between Poe and someone else in the Resistance. Something meant to be taken as encouragement or reassurance, not something akin to the defiant final words said by a hero to a villainous conquerer before falling in battle -- where a "someone else will do it" mentality makes more sense and would actually be desired.

"Hey, don't sweat it. Even if we don't do anything, others will come along eventually who will. I mean, yeah, a lot more people might die or get enslaved in the meantime while the galaxy waits for other people to be so arrogant as to step up and call themselves 'we.' But at least we won't be offending anyone with our willingness to take initiative."

Poe Dameron, folks, the great motivational speaker. :awesomonster:
I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing anything, but the galaxy is big, the First Order's attempt to claim rule of it, touches more people then the actions of the last handful of living people left in the Resistance can. Either some people can be nominally depended on to act to defend their free will or most of the galaxy is gonna have to be written off, or being on the Millenium Falcon really does mean you are regarded as the center of universe and you should regard yourself as such as well.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#36
Heh... you can use that same argument about the old Jedi Order and the Old Republic though. Or the Empire even... one thing that has remained canon is that the entire Galaxy has never been under one governmental organization. You've got places like the Outer Rim where the "main" government of the majority of the galaxy doesn't have influence.

Heck, that's one of the things the Phantom Menace brings out. Tatooine isn't part of the territory of the Old Republic, so the Jedi Order doesn't (more like can't) care about the slavery happening there even though they know it's bad. It's not a place where they can rely on their political allies or hope to change things permanently, so they just don't bother.

So what is anyone supposed to do with the fact that they can't change things everywhere? That's frankly unrealistic to expect. And that's a really crappy message to give too. "Don't bother trying to change things for the better unless you can make an impactful change everywhere"? That's... really depressing. And something that will never happen outside of a movie. Much better to give a message about trying to set an example for people in how a small group of people change things where they can in spite of most people being apathetic to them. That's a lot more true to how ordinary people can encourage change.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#37
Heh... you can use that same argument about the old Jedi Order and the Old Republic though. Or the Empire even... one thing that has remained canon is that the entire Galaxy has never been under one governmental organization. You've got places like the Outer Rim where the "main" government of the majority of the galaxy doesn't have influence.

Heck, that's one of the things the Phantom Menace brings out. Tatooine isn't part of the territory of the Old Republic, so the Jedi Order doesn't (more like can't) care about the slavery happening there even though they know it's bad. It's not a place where they can rely on their political allies or hope to change things permanently, so they just don't bother.

So what is anyone supposed to do with the fact that they can't change things everywhere? That's frankly unrealistic to expect. And that's a really crappy message to give too. "Don't bother trying to change things for the better unless you can make an impactful change everywhere"? That's... really depressing. And something that will never happen outside of a movie. Much better to give a message about trying to set an example for people in how a small group of people change things where they can in spite of most people being apathetic to them. That's a lot more true to how ordinary people can encourage change.
Again, not saying they shouldn't bother trying to change things for the better. Just acknowledge you're a small part of a big galaxy, the First Order makes no secret that they are a fascist organisation bent on subjugating the universe, restoring the way things were under the Empire. The New Republic is made of thousands of democratic governments. If the occupants of a single blockade runner is the bigger resistance out there left, I think that sends a much shittier message. Forget most people. A person willing to stand up for themselves is evidently a one in a million occurance that seemingly almost never happens.

Rogue One portrays a very different universe. The Empire has enormous prison systems, filled with very few rebels, cause they got plenty other enemies in the galaxy, Saw Gerrera isn't portrayed as utterly unique by being a movement against the Empire that is not under the command of the Rebel Alliance. And the alliance was an alliance. It by definition always represented more then one group coming together. 30 years later, there's not enough left in the entire galaxy to even make an alliance out of, Just the few people this single group and the individuals they are able to recruit personally. I don't see how the galaxy can recover this time even if Ben Solo gets redeemed to be honest.
 
#38
And I mean, to have begun this conversation saying "that's not a great message," what preferable message are you proposing? "Why do I need to do it"? "Why should I concern myself with setting the example for [blank]"? "Why isn't someone else already doing it"? "Someone else will step up even if I don't"?

I'm certain you're not going for any of that, but your objection is lacking a distinct through-line for me. You're not offering up much in the way of superior alternative philosophizing to highlight by way of contrast the moral or even narrative shortcomings of this one.
Something like 'the entire galaxy is fighting, we have to do our part'

This is what an actual resistance speech sounds like. Notice how much he talks about 'our allies are still fighting, we can't let them down.' And if that really isn't true, if nobody is fighting except the fifteen people on the Falcon, then that's basically saying that everyone not on the Falcon are sheep that won't stand up for themselves unless inspired. Which isn't how this kind of thing works.

In the other movies, there was always reference to other people fighting independent fights. 'What about the droid attack on the Wookiees', despite being a derogatory meme for some reason, does show that people are fighting back independently. Leia references how people will rebel based on what the Empire is doing, not because the Rebel Alliance commanders will inspire them to fight.

Looking it up, the explosion of a transmitter chip seems to be primarily based on distance, so as to serve as a means of deterring running away (and possibly to deter kidnapping by other slaveowners?). There probably are other trigger mechanisms, but I'd wager all of them can be deactivated by slowly removing parts of a slaveowners' body. :awesome:
99
But as we've established previously, ending slavery was never on the Jedi Order's to-do-list, so that's neither here nor there.
Torture and dismemberment of someone that won't give you what you want...truly the greatest example for Anakin's mental health.

When Qui Gon pulls his sabre, Watto can say, 'take one more step, and I kill her right now.' And he might. Qui Gon cannot be sure.

Is he supposed to gamble with Schmi's life? What does that say about how much he values her?

Inherently this all exploring the same problems that existed on Tatooine back in Episode I where the New Republic couldn't help a little slave boy because it was outside of their jurisdiction – but Qui-Gon decided to anyway. As a result Anakin never really managed to save the people he cared about most because the rules he was bound by wouldn't allow it (he lost his mother because of the rules of the Jedi and eschewing attachment
This is the statement that started this conversation, the idea that the Jedi rules on attachment separated Anakin from his mother. They didn't. You seem to be arguing that the Jedi rules against killing and torturing people you don't like are the ones to blame. That could easily just end up in her being blown up, and is not likely to make Anakin less likely to fall. Even if it succeeds, it just tells Anakin that Qui Gon was willing to roll the dice on her safety and doesn't value her life.

The Jedi rules obviously don't prohibit freeing slaves, because Qui Gon initially tries. The Jedi Council express no opinion on the matter, because they were nowhere near Tattooine at the time, so any stance they have on slavery is speculation. However, it is notable that in the Republic, where the Jedi have more power, slavery is strictly prohibited.

Re the PT references

For me it's more like if Person G said 'they're ignoring Dirge' and Person K cited the existence of Chaos in the OG as evidence that they were paying off Dirge. They're not the same thing. (Initials chosen at random).

The question that then arises for me is if there were strong references to Dirge, then Person K probably wouldn't need to include namedropping Chaos as a reference to Dirge, because there would be stronger direct links available.

Does that make more sense?

If you look at TFA'S marketing, it's clear enough that excluding the PT was deliberate. Most notably, there were supposed to be podracing flags on Takodana that were in the trailers but taken out of the theatrical cut because they were a PT reference. Hence my concerns.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#39
@Clement Rage
For me, "paying off the PT" means more about the themes than name-dropping, though I'll grant you the oddness of the podracing thing. I'm not quite sure that it entails precisely your assessment, though, since the marketing did have the reference while the final product did not. Oddly.

As for what could have been done with Watto, I don't buy that there was literally nothing that could be done. If the Empire could be rebeled against and the First Order resisted, this one little shitstain slaveowner -- or even all of them on that dustbin world -- could have been addressed.

Could something have gone wrong? Well, of course. Doing nothing kind of guarantees an already going wrong thing continued going wrong, though, does it not?

Something like 'the entire galaxy is fighting, we have to do our part'

This is what an actual resistance speech sounds like. Notice how much he talks about 'our allies are still fighting, we can't let them down.' And if that really isn't true, if nobody is fighting except the fifteen people on the Falcon, then that's basically saying that everyone not on the Falcon are sheep that won't stand up for themselves unless inspired.
Orrr it could mean that almost everyone who had been active in the organization at that moment was dead. Because no matter how this kind of thing works (or doesn't), we will always be discussing a finite number of people at a given moment in time. And as I said before, people in the act of rebelling/resistancing do not spontaneously materialize.

Thus -- especially in a context of the kind of weaponry dotting this setting -- they can most certainly be wiped out down to near-zero numbers at another given moment in time.

I don't know what to tell you otherwise. It's not difficult for me to wrap around at all, but I'll acknowledge the possibility of a shortcoming on my part making that possible.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#40
@Clement Rage
For me, "paying off the PT" means more about the themes than name-dropping, though I'll grant you the oddness of the podracing thing. I'm not quite sure that it entails precisely your assessment, though, since the marketing did have the reference while the final product did not. Oddly.

As for what could have been done with Watto, I don't buy that there was literally nothing that could be done. If the Empire could be rebeled against and the First Order resisted, this one little shitstain slaveowner -- or even all of them on that dustbin world -- could have been addressed.

Could something have gone wrong? Well, of course. Doing nothing kind of guarantees an already going wrong thing continued going wrong, though, does it not?
Murdering an unarmed civilian would have plunged the Jedi in question in darkness. And murdering an unarmed civilian while acting as negotiators on behalf of the Chancellor would certainly have led to war and destroyed the Jedi's ability to act as peacekeepers for the Republic. Qui-Gon had the rest of the galaxy to consider. Shmi also didn't seem on the idea of Qui-Gon starting a conflict that would likely see the death and misery of everyone she'd ever known over her freedom.


Orrr it could mean that almost everyone who had been active in the organization at that moment was dead. Because no matter how this kind of thing works (or doesn't), we will always be discussing a finite number of people at a given moment in time. And as I said before, people in the act of rebelling/resistancing do not spontaneously materialize.

Thus -- especially in a context of the kind of weaponry dotting this setting -- they can most certainly be wiped out down to near-zero numbers at another given moment in time.

I don't know what to tell you otherwise. It's not difficult for me to wrap around at all, but I'll acknowledge the possibility of a shortcoming on my part making that possible.
They wouldn't be rebelling or resistancing. That implies they started out under the First Order's control. The First Order is not the Empire. The First Order is an invading force from a different region. Every planet, every shipyard, every fleet in the galaxy was under someone else's command a week ago. Then they, every single planetary government, no exceptions, surrendered to the First Order/refused to fight against them after the destruction of the New Republic capital system. That's where we are. Now the actions of handful of people, not enough to man a single warship, let alone take on hundreds/thousands of warships, think they are gonna change minds on a galactic level, just like that. That's thinking an awful lot of themselves. Every person in the Resistance is more idealistic then Luke was in Return of the Jedi when he gambled everything on his Vader's lingering humanity, something he was met with scepticism about from everyone he knew, be they Rebel or Jedi. It's crazy.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#41
Murdering an unarmed civilian would have plunged the Jedi in question in darkness.
It's homicide, but not sure I'd call it murder.

Either way, Luke got away with blowing up a battle station almost certainly full of mostly low-ranking personnel enlisted in the only government game in town. I think whoever gets creative with a lightsaber around a literal slaveowner is going to be just fine from a spiritual standpoint.

And murdering an unarmed civilian while acting as negotiators on behalf of the Chancellor would certainly have led to war and destroyed the Jedi's ability to act as peacekeepers for the Republic. Qui-Gon had the rest of the galaxy to consider.
This is where we get into the list of political b.s. that made the Jedi useless -- a.k.a. Crap I Don't Expect to Tie Superheroes' Hands In Perpetuity. :monster:

They wouldn't be rebelling or resistancing. That implies they started out under the First Order's control.
The Resistance is a thing, though?

Now the actions of handful of people, not enough to man a single warship, let alone take on hundreds/thousands of warships, think they are gonna change minds on a galactic level, just like that. That's thinking an awful lot of themselves. Every person in the Resistance is more idealistic then Luke was in Return of the Jedi when he gambled everything on his Vader's lingering humanity, something he was met with scepticism about from everyone he knew, be they Rebel or Jedi. It's crazy.
I mean, I don't look to fantastical fiction for heroic figures who decide they can't make a difference in impossible situations.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#42
It's homicide, but not sure I'd call it murder.

Either way, Luke got away with blowing up a battle station almost certainly full of mostly low-ranking personnel enlisted in the only government game in town. I think whoever gets creative with a lightsaber around a literal slaveowner is going to be just fine from a spiritual standpoint.
That Battlestation was seconds away from blowing up a moon with people on it. And they were at war.

This is where we get into the list of political b.s. that made the Jedi useless -- a.k.a. Crap I Don't Expect to Tie Superheroes' Hands In Perpetuity. :monster:
I dunno about useless. Naboo, an entire highly populated planet was saved by their efforts. Something that would have never happened if Qui-Gon changed focus to every new problem in the galaxy they came across.

The Resistance is a thing, though?
The Resistance is one small underfunded organisation, comparatively speaking. D'Qar and Crait aren't planets with indigenous populations, they're just place where the Resistance had their two only bases. Other then Leia's personal army, the First Order apparently acquired no enemies in their quest for galactic conquest.

I mean, I don't look to fantastical fiction for heroic figures who decide they can't make a difference in impossible situations.
Well in Star Wars they needed Jedi or plans for the Death Star with a weakness in them, or information that Bothans traded their lives for and the Ewoks helping them to make an impossible situation possible. Not just their uppity attidutes. We were talking about the message these movies send. In the original Star Wars, Leia, on behalf of a MUCH larger, interplanetary organisation reaches out to Obi-Wan Kenobi as their only hope. And Obi-Wan doesn't he can even do his part on his own. Was that a bad message? Asking for help?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#43
That Battlestation was seconds away from blowing up a moon with people on it.
Watto and his ilk are years past taking away people's freedom on an ongoing basis.

Are you saying killing him would be okay then if him enslaving someone was only imminent instead? =P

The Resistance is one small underfunded organisation, comparatively speaking. D'Qar and Crait aren't planets with indigenous populations, they're just place where the Resistance had their two only bases. Other then Leia's personal army, the First Order apparently acquired no enemies in their quest for galactic conquest.
You said the concept of resisting "implies they started out under the First Order's control." I pointed out that they're literally called The Resistance.

Well in Star Wars they needed Jedi or plans for the Death Star with a weakness in them, or information that Bothans traded their lives for and the Ewoks helping them to make an impossible situation possible. Not just their uppity attidutes. We were talking about the message these movies send. In the original Star Wars, Leia, on behalf of a MUCH larger, interplanetary organisation reaches out to Obi-Wan Kenobi as their only hope. And Obi-Wan doesn't he can even do his part on his own. Was that a bad message? Asking for help?
Only if believing good people will try to make a positive difference when encouraged is a bad message.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#44
Watto and his ilk are years past taking away people's freedom on an ongoing basis.

Are you saying killing him would be okay then if him enslaving someone was only imminent instead? =P
Watto is not even close to capable of actually fighting back against a Jedi Master if one was preventing whatever scenerio Watto is actually doing the enslaving rather then being a person with money that functions in the Huttese slave-based economy. If Watto should go, their whole civilisation should go. And given that Tatioone barely has enough water to sustain any carbon-based life naturally, most living beings on it. What's you're proposing would have ended the lives of most slaves on Tatioone. Qui-Gon is already on mission to save a whole planet from violent occupation, Anakin is by no means obliged to stay with the Jedi afterwards, he can quit like Dooku at any time, go back to Tatioone and see his long since set free mother. Or he could've asked Padme, who has money and autonomy, to free the life of the person that rescued her from dying in a desertstorm at some point. But no, it's entirely and exclusively the Jedi Order's fault for not coming in with lightsabers and raising hell.

You said the concept of resisting "implies they started out under the First Order's control." I pointed out that they're literally called The Resistance.
Fun nostalgic theme naming on Leia's part doesn't mean it's accurate. It's like if the US and Soviet militaries decided to go by the resistance in WWII because they find themselves fighting the same enemy as the french resistence. The world's bigger then that. So is the galaxy far far away, and the First Order should have no shortage of enemies not under Leia's command in it.

Only if believing good people will try to make a positive difference when encouraged is a bad message.
It isn't, trying to make a postive difference I'm all for, being certain you and you alone are the specific change that the galaxy will listen to, where all your predecessors failed, died, and you failed, having been for months, trying to do the exact same thing, I'm less onboard with.
 
Last edited:
#45
For me, "paying off the PT" means more about the themes than name-dropping, though I'll grant you the oddness of the podracing thing. I'm not quite sure that it entails precisely your assessment, though, since the marketing did have the reference while the final product did not. Oddly.
What themes are these? Honest question. There's something about learning from past failures, but...what have the new generation improved on so far? They're fighting the same battles, in the same ships, using the same tactics and ideologies.

'Don't rely on the Jedi?' But before, Obi and Yoda went into hiding, and a Resistance formed anyway. That's not a thing.

'Arms dealers perpetuate the cycle' But they were manipulated into that by Sidious in the PT, the TF would have preferred not to have a giant war.
And the New Republic demilitarised, yet the FO is just fine.

The podracing is significant in that there was no plausible excuse for it, and the idea that JJ is talking about 'coming up with our own stuff' as an excuse is interesting given TFA, which is built on wall to wall, lovingly lingering shots on random OT references like blue milk, the remote, the chess game thing, and so on. But a tiny inconsequential PT reference most people won't even notice is cut out, because 'Ew, PT', which is not a great attitude to have for the director of episode seven of a series.

As for what could have been done with Watto, I don't buy that there was literally nothing that could be done. If the Empire could be rebeled against and the First Order resisted, this one little shitstain slaveowner -- or even all of them on that dustbin world -- could have been addressed.

Could something have gone wrong? Well, of course. Doing nothing kind of guarantees an already going wrong thing continued going wrong, though, does it not?
Could something have been done? Maybe. Could something have been done without Schmi exploding? Less likely, but possible. Is it a positive outcome to kill Watto if the result is both him and Schmi dead? How does Anakin feel about that? Should you free a slave if it kills them?

What's your stance on Rose and Finn leaving the slave children behind on Canto Bight? I just assumed they had those same transmitter things to make sense of it. Rose knows about this stuff, it seems to be common knowledge. But the New Republic hasn't done anything, the Resistance hasn't done anything. And our leads apparently haven't done anything all this time.

The larger point still remains that Qui Gon not freeing Schmi has nothing to do with the Jedi rules, but Jedi rules keep being blamed for some reason. Which is one of the ways I think TCW departs from the PT's themes.

And as I said before, people in the act of rebelling/resistancing do not spontaneously materialize.

Thus -- especially in a context of the kind of weaponry dotting this setting -- they can most certainly be wiped out down to near-zero numbers at another given moment in time.
Well, they, uh, kinda do?

Here's how this kind of thing tends to happen (I've been reading about Leningrad this week, if that helps, I'm not just making this up)

Resistance group exists.

Authorities crack down brutally, decimate or destroy them.

The populace is disgusted by the authorities methods, and more resistance happens as a result.

And previously, the SW universe lined up with this. That's what Leia's line is about.
Even back in Naboo in TPM, after the queen disapeared, there was an independent resistance they were able to link up with when they returned. Padme wasn't running it, it just happened.

That's why oppressive regimes can never completely kill resistance, even if they can wipe out specific organisations.

But at this point I remember that it's one line in a trailer that may not mean anything at all. Let's wait and see, shall we?
 
AKA
The Engineer
#46
'Don't rely on the Jedi?' But before, Obi and Yoda went into hiding, and a Resistance formed anyway. That's not a thing.
"Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you are my only hope."

One of the most iconic lines in all of Star Wars is a direct appeal to a Jedi for help because Leia thinks the Jedi can help her fix her problem. In fact, I think you could make a case that the entire assumption and driving force of the first two trilogies is that the Jedi (or the Force) is the fix to whatever the main characters think the main problem of the trilogy is. I think you can also make a case for that being the driving force of the last trilogy so far too.

Episodes 4, 5, and 6 are Luke and Leia trying to fix the problem of the Empire by finding the Jedi/Force. And as it turns out, it works out great! Luke needs the Force to destroy the first Death Star and keep the Rebellion alive. Luke wouldn't have found out Vader was his father unless he followed the Force's promoting to go to Cloud City. The Emperor wouldn't have died if Luke hadn't been able to forge a connection with Anakin through the Force. And being able to destroy all the Death Stars isn't going to stop the Empire either unless the Emperor is dead. In this trilogy, the help the Jedi/Force give is a huge success.

Episodes 1, 2, and 3 are about Anakin thinking the Jedi (or the power they give him) can save him and his family. And how that ends up not being the case. Anakin hopes the Jedi will free slaves when he meets them for the first time. They do take him with them, but it costs him his relationship with his mom up to that point. Anakin hopes with the power of the Force he can save his mom from dying, but he can't. Anakin hopes he can prevent Padme's and his children's death with the Force, but he ends up being the one to kill Padme. In this trilogy, the help the Jedi/Force is hoped to give ends up being a colossal failure.

Episodes 7 and 8 are a mix of both. Rey hopes the Jedi/Force will fix the meaningless of her own life. It does, but not in the way she imagined it would. Ben has seen the Jedi/Force fail him already and has stopped hoping it will fix anything. How this trilogy ends up portraying the Force will be interesting to see.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#47
Watto is not even close to capable of actually fighting back against a Jedi Master ...
It's almost like there's not even half a good reason to forego stringing him up. :awesome:

If Watto should go, their whole civilisation should go.
It's probably not quite that easy, but that would be nice.

And given that Tatioone barely has enough water to sustain any carbon-based life naturally, most living beings on it. What's you're proposing would have ended the lives of most slaves on Tatioone.
So offer them a ride to a different planet?

Qui-Gon is already on mission to save a whole planet from violent occupation, Anakin is by no means obliged to stay with the Jedi afterwards, he can quit like Dooku at any time, go back to Tatioone and see his long since set free mother. Or he could've asked Padme, who has money and autonomy, to free the life of the person that rescued her from dying in a desertstorm at some point. But no, it's entirely and exclusively the Jedi Order's fault for not coming in with lightsabers and raising hell.
Are my personal failings excused by others' personal failings?

Fun nostalgic theme naming on Leia's part doesn't mean it's accurate. It's like if the US and Soviet militaries decided to go by the resistance in WWII because they find themselves fighting the same enemy as the french resistence. The world's bigger then that. So is the galaxy far far away, and the First Order should have no shortage of enemies not under Leia's command in it.
I am really confused by your grievance with the name. The First Order is an encroaching organized military seeking to conquer the galaxy and replace its existing government. The Resistance is a non-government organized military resisting that encroachment.

I cannot imagine anything more simple and straightforward than that. =\

It isn't, trying to make a postive difference I'm all for, being certain you and you alone are the specific change that the galaxy will listen to, where all your predecessors failed, died, and you failed, having been for months, trying to do the exact same thing, I'm less onboard with.
Fortunately, what you spoke of is not the only way to take those lines, and most any other interpretations are much less of a bizarre take.

What themes are these? Honest question.
Primarily, the difference between legitimate balance in the Force rather than myopic wishful thinking, and the difference in legitimate peace and justice rather than out-of-sight-out-of-mind-ness.

There's also a certain dramatic irony in Kylo Ren's tantrums and tryhard-ness to be the Darth Vader sequel when Anakin lacked those personality quirks. People remember Anakin's angry breakdowns but forget they were mostly in a moment of understandably extreme emotional turmoil rather than at the first drop of a hood.

All of which comes back to Anakin being seduced into evil while Kylo chose to try becoming evil.

The podracing is significant in that there was no plausible excuse for it, and the idea that JJ is talking about 'coming up with our own stuff' as an excuse is interesting given TFA, which is built on wall to wall, lovingly lingering shots on random OT references like blue milk, the remote, the chess game thing, and so on. But a tiny inconsequential PT reference most people won't even notice is cut out, because 'Ew, PT', which is not a great attitude to have for the director of episode seven of a series.
I agree that it's both odd and in poor taste.

Could something have been done? Maybe. Could something have been done without Schmi exploding? Less likely, but possible. Is it a positive outcome to kill Watto if the result is both him and Schmi dead? How does Anakin feel about that? Should you free a slave if it kills them?
I really hope the Jedi Order didn't spend so little time actually dealing with the subject that they had no ideas whatsoever about how to go about this effectively.

What's your stance on Rose and Finn leaving the slave children behind on Canto Bight?
That they barely got themselves out; they were racing an unforgiving clock; and we've not seen what they do once they have a chance to think about those people again.

The larger point still remains that Qui Gon not freeing Schmi has nothing to do with the Jedi rules, but Jedi rules keep being blamed for some reason.
I think it's more "Jedi indifference," "Jedi incompetence," or"Jedi myopia" people ascribe fault to.

Well, they, uh, kinda do?
People do not spontaneously materialize. Just spontaneously dematerialize under ordnance fire.

Here's how this kind of thing tends to happen (I've been reading about Leningrad this week, if that helps, I'm not just making this up)

Resistance group exists.

Authorities crack down brutally, decimate or destroy them.

The populace is disgusted by the authorities methods, and more resistance happens as a result.
And how do those "more resistance" people learn of said disgusting methods? Via civilian collective telepathy -- or because someone(s) spread the word as a call to action?
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#48
It's almost like there's not even half a good reason to forego stringing him up. :awesome:



It's probably not quite that easy, but that would be nice.



So offer them a ride to a different planet?



Are my personal failings excused by others' personal failings?
Some people were a little busier being dead then others after having finished the mission to save Naboo they embarked on before going to Tatioone then others, yet Qui-Gon gets all the blame. Again, the mission was one where they had agreed to act on behalf of the head of the demoncratic republic to save lives, I really feel they can't just go "Well I don't see any problem with us murdering some people out of blue for doing what it legal in this planet but not on ours before we get back to our duties."

And yes? We started this argument on the Jedi Order is to blame for Darth Vader rather then Anakin or even Palpatine? Either way some substantial personal failing are ignored to blame someone else.

I am really confused by your grievance with the name. The First Order is an encroaching organized military seeking to conquer the galaxy and replace its existing government. The Resistance is a non-government organized military resisting that encroachment.
Problem is that it was named such years before the New Republic capital was destroyed, before the First Oder started occupying any ground. Long before even Leia could have conceived of their operation being big enough to make something like the Starkiller base possible. The Resistance is non-government military. There are, however, thousands of government organized militaries that the First would have to go through before it could conquer the galaxy. None of these militaries ever felt like meeting the First Order in battle, letting become the dominant force in the galaxy, suddenly it the Resistance lives up to it's name, but they still exist and should not have to call themselves the Resistance to do perform their existing jobs.

I cannot imagine anything more simple and straightforward than that. =\
Given that New Republic didn't saction the destruction of their own capital, the Republican fleet can engage the First Order while still calling itself the Republican Fleet?

Fortunately, what you spoke of is not the only way to take those lines, and most any other interpretations are much less of a bizarre take.
"We're not alone. Good people will fight if we lead them."

You can't ignore the context in this statement. The galaxy witnessed the destruction of the Hosnian system and decided to recline Leia's request for help anyway. When there were still thousands in their ranks and they were fighting the First Order, whatever good people are mentioned here did not find themselves willing to follow them into the fight. Is the First Order less scary then in the Last Jedi, even though Palpantine's conjuring up another massive fleet of Star Destroyers out of the ether to do evil? Or is the Resistance doing something fundamentally different then yesterday?
Or are people in this scene cheering a statement that ruins directly counter to the reality they have been living for their every day they've been in the Resistance thus far and we should ignore what the last movies have told us is the situation because it's time for a happy ending?
 
Last edited:

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#49
Some people were a little busier being dead then others after having finished the mission to save Naboo they embarked on before going to Tatioone then others, yet Qui-Gon gets all the blame.
In light of the "Master & Apprentice" book, Qui-Gon deserves less of the blame than Yoda or Jedi culture in general.

Again, the mission was one where they had agreed to act on behalf of the head of the demoncratic republic to save lives, I really feel they can't just go "Well I don't see any problem with us murdering some people out of blue for doing what it legal in this planet but not on ours before we get back to our duties."
So how long was it taking them to get back to those duties? Another decade?

Nobody said that something had to be done right that very moment. It could have at least found its way onto the to-do list.

And yes? We started this argument on the Jedi Order is to blame for Darth Vader rather then Anakin or even Palpatine?
Not with me? All I pointed out was that "No sale (of this human being)!" doesn't have to be the end of the matter when we're talking about space ninja.

And not that I would say the Jedi are more responsible than Palpatine, but unlike him, the Jedi Order claimed the sanctimony of enforcing peace and order. They also possessed the power and resources to do something about injustice, wherever it was found.

Problem is that it was named such years before the New Republic capital was destroyed, before the First Oder started occupying any ground. Long before even Leia could have conceived of their operation being big enough to make something like the Starkiller base possible. The Resistance is non-government military. There are, however, thousands of government organized militaries that the First would have to go through before it could conquer the galaxy. None of these militaries ever felt like meeting the First Order in battle, letting become the dominant force in the galaxy, suddenly it the Resistance lives up to it's name, but they still exist and should not have to call themselves the Resistance to do perform their existing jobs.
Clearly I'm never going to get why it's a problem. It's a simple name that explains what it is and what it does. Leia and whoever else perceived an approaching threat for what it was and chose to oppose it, unable to convince other officials to do so before it was too late.

"The Resistance" is an appropriate enough name for that resistance effort of resisting resistantly.

"We're not alone. Good people will fight if we lead them."

You can't ignore the context in this statement.
The context we know almost nothing about? =P

The galaxy witnessed the destruction of the Hosnian system and decided to recline Leia's request for help anyway. When there were still thousands in their ranks and they were fighting the First Order, whatever good people are mentioned here did not find themselves willing to follow them into the fight.
Is the United States' unwillingness to utilize its resources to police the world the way it should be indicative of there being no good people present here rather than perpetually poor leadership?

Or are people in this scene cheering a statement that ruins directly counter to the reality they have been living for their every day they've been in the Resistance thus far and we should ignore what the last movies have told us is the situation because it's time for a happy ending?
Only statement I'm seeing here that runs counter to reality is this one about people cheering. 'Cause what?
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#50
Nobody said that something had to be done right that very moment. It could have at least found its way onto the to-do list.
The killing Watto argument gave the impression Qui-Gon was at fault for not murdering Watto the nanosecond he demonstrated a relience to Jedi mind tricks,

Not with me? All I pointed out was that "No sale (of this human being)!" doesn't have to be the end of the matter when we're talking about space ninja.
Not from you, but this argument was nevertheless sparked by the claim that he lost his mother due to the Jedi rules. Even though his mother was freed from slavery years ago, and the same movie in which Shmi died demonstrated that Jedi can leave th order peacefully if they wish to do so.

And not that I would say the Jedi are more responsible than Palpatine, but unlike him, the Jedi Order claimed the sanctimony of enforcing peace and order. They also possessed the power and resources to do something about injustice, wherever it was found.
Their resources and power and authority to act with a certain discretion during wars or violent conflicts is owed to the Republic, which doesn't want them picking fights whenever and wherever they like. Palpatine, the Republic's democratically elected head of state might not want Tatioone and by extension Anakin's peace of mind to be secured in particular.
Leia also had the power and resources to fix all the galaxy's problems. She's a powerful force-user and the only thing that stood in her way was a bunch of morally bankrupt senators that don't have the innate resistance to Jedi mind tricks that Watto and the Hutts enjoyed, yet here are, most of the galaxy's problems remain unsolved long after Force users are free from the Jedi's rules.

Clearly I'm never going to get why it's a problem. It's a simple name that explains what it is and what it does. Leia and whoever else perceived an approaching threat for what it was and chose to oppose it, unable to convince other officials to do so before it was too late.
It's the "before it was too late" part that annoys me. The Resistance was named such back when the First Order was a bunch of upstarts, outnumbered by those that are charged with defending their planets freedoms by a 100 to 1. Not only was the galaxy not on the First Order side, but they saw Leia, Luke, Han, Lando and Wedge as celebrated warheroes. Yet the movies needed Leia's force to have a scrappy underdog feel to it to tap into OT nostalgia, earned or not.
I can deal with the reality that moviemakers are terrified of looking like the prequels, so we'll never have more then 2 lightsabers on screen or the Republic Senate having meetings on deciding what to do. But actually naming this movement the Resistance long before the First Order had any hope of conquering even their first Republic planet without being curbstomped by it's vastly superior government organised military is a bridge too far for me.

The context we know almost nothing about? =P
The Last Jedi had some fairly specific things to say concerning the galaxy not being willing to answer their calls for help, and how the people in the fleet are the only ones left to oppose the First Order (and nearly all of those people would not survive the rest of the movie). Now, maybe Leia, Hondo and Poe will be branded as dramaqueens for their statements in Last Jedi but I don't expect that.

Is the United States' unwillingness to utilize its resources to police the world the way it should be indicative of there being no good people present here rather than perpetually poor leadership?
I don't think any protest is thinking they'll utterly change the tides on the US position overnight. It seems like the sliver of what remains of the Resistance will, and despite what your comparison to the US implies about the likelyhood of that, will probably be proven right.

Only statement I'm seeing here that runs counter to reality is this one about people cheering. 'Cause what?
I'll admit my displeasure with the trailer got the better of me.
 
Top Bottom