Misc Star Wars Tangents

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#76
@Roger
I guess I was unclear. I was responding to the argument that trying to free the slaves shouldn't be attempted because their slavers may kill them in a "if I go down, they all go down" kind of move, in the event mind tricks don't work on them to prevent it.

Palpatine intended precisely that. Many worlds -- including a demilitarized Naboo (his own defenseless homeworld) and the most loyal planet in the empire (Vardos, location of the Future Imperial Leaders Military Preparatory School) -- were ravaged just because he wanted to punish the entire galaxy for his defeat.

The question, then, is whether the same defeatism should apply to the matter of deposing the emperor. Should the galaxy have been left in his hands just because he was petty enough to burn loyalist and rebel alike to death if he should be overthrown?
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#77
@Roger
I guess I was unclear. I was responding to the argument that trying to free the slaves shouldn't be attempted because their slavers may kill them in a "if I go down, they all go down" kind of move, in the event mind tricks don't work on them to prevent it.

Palpatine intended precisely that. Many worlds -- including a demilitarized Naboo (his own defenseless homeworld) and the most loyal planet in the empire (Vardos, location of the Future Imperial Leaders Military Preparatory School) -- were ravaged just because he wanted to punish the entire galaxy for his defeat.

The question, then, is whether the same defeatism should apply to the matter of deposing the emperor. Should the galaxy have been left in his hands just because he was petty enough to burn loyalist and rebel alike to death if he should be overthrown?
As we now know, he was neither overthrown nor defeated. the destruction of Operation Cinder was to create massive bodycounts that might or might not account for every missing person as a cover to take his loyal troops and disappear into the Unknown Region. Keep in mind that a Star Destroyer has a crew complement of tens of thousands of people, the hundreds of Star Destroyers that left to become the First Order are crewed by millions of people for whom the war never ended. The SECOND fleet of Star Destroyers we see in trailers is likewise crewed by millions of people likely descended from people for whom the rule of the Emperor never ended. The Emperor lost territory thanks to the Rebel Alliance, but still outlasted the Rebel Alliance in the end.

But yes, war has causalties anyway, the Galactic Civil War meant accepting civil causalties, so would this one, not just because slavers are sore losers, but if you sent a liberation fleet to Tatioone, you'll like kill plenty of slaves in the attack in your own right.
Still worth it, to end slavery, but what happens after the slavers are gone and Tatioone is just a barely habitable world that has no economy supporting anymore as you've just annihilated it's civilisation. Without Republic planets and fleets to agree to bring relief long-term all the slaves die anyway, regardless of what the slavers do or don't do. It's not something a Jedi can fix with his lightsaber or his mindtricks. Unless the mindtricks are done to the leaders of democratic worlds and you keep doing it for decades, at some point the inhabitants of Tatioone are gonna find themselves abandoned to their lot by their saviours. For the Jedi to end the Huttese civilisation they need either Republic approval or submit to being dictators themselves.
 
#78
Honestly, I think changing the attachments rule probably makes things worse. Palpatine will find out about them and use them against him, which is something he's extremely good at. Bringing Schmi to Coruscant just gives him another lever to use against him, ranging from having her killed to marrying her.

Re casualties, no they should not be disregarded, it's a constant cost/benefit analysis, case by case. 'Does this operation justify the cost?' Deciding not to make that analysis is the point where you become the thing you're fighting against.

That's why you have to plan it properly. You can fight against the Empire, but there's always that cost/benefit analysis that has to happen. 'How can we minimise casualties to innocents'

Suppose you make an example out of that slave owner. A number of slaveowners take their least valuable slaves and make the same example out of them, stroke for stroke, they replicate whatever you did to your example.

Was it worth it?

What you absolutely should not do is charge in blindly on principle with no regard for the cost to the slaves you are trying to free.

The Jedi don't have a fleet to use (they have to use Kamino's newly commissioned warships in the TCW). They have Starfighters, but you can't bring supplies on those, which you will need to assault Tattooine (especially water). It's not such an easy thing to do.

How many Jedi do you think it takes to conquer Tattooine?

It's just a matter of the different assumptions we're choosing to make. I have no difficulty in believing the Jedi are doing a lot of stuff we never get to see offscreen, just by nature of how vast the galaxy is. Not only do we not get to see every Jedi meeting, we don't even get to see the full meeting, we have no idea what they said about what happened on Tatooine, what Qui Gon left out of his report, or the answers to it.

I'll get back to you re my slavery plan shortly.
 
#79
The first thing you have to do is find a way to beat those transmitters. If you can't do that, any victories you gain will be on the backs of hundreds
of dead slaves.

Everything else is built on assuming that's possible.

1. Do not train Anakin as a Jedi, but give him ordinary combat training, logistics and such. Get him working for NGOs doing charity work.
2. When he's old enough, ask him if he wants to free slaves from Tattooine, given considerable risk.
3. Assuming he agrees, insert him into a small remote town, and take it over slowly. Freed slaves are offered a chance to sign on, but also offered a trip offworld. You don't free slaves from someone else just to make them your own.
4. Slowly infiltrate the smaller towns, take them over with your transmitter cancelling trick.
5. Involve no Jedi openly. Anakin Skywalker, local boy that escaped, is the leader of this movement. It has to be locally led, if the Jedi take over by force, whenever they're called to the next crisis the new state they created on Tattooine will go the way of South Vietnam. At best Anakin can threaten to call in the Jedi if Jabba calls the other Hutts, a 'you call your friends, I call mine' situation.
6. Eventually, Jabba notices and sends his people to squash the revolt. This needs to be defeated.
7. Assuming victory, then the abolitionist movement starts taking on bigger targets.
8 When Jabba decides to go all out, fortify his target but send another force to infiltrate his palace, and capture him or disable his network. Jabba as hostage could be useful to stop other Hutts retaliating, but if he ever gets free he could do a lot of damage.
9. Anakin is crowned King of Tattooine. Keep an eye on him to ensure he doesn't become corrupt. Maybe eventually the planet can move towards democratic traditions, but it has to stabilise first.

It's not a sure thing and there's lots of stuff that can go wrong, but that's my best shot.

It will be really weird if TROS suddenly tries to call the Jedi out on their slavery stance. Nobody seemed to care that much about the slaves on Jakku, Canto Bight, or the First Order stormtroopers (kidnapped child conscripts) up to now, not even Finn or Rey.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#80
@Clement Rage
That really doesn't sound very different from what I thought I've been proposing all along. Obviously you start small, doing some Jedi mind trickery on those slavers who aren't Force-resistant, to get the ball rolling. Learn how to locate and disable transmitters, free who can be freed subtly without raising an alarm, maybe even make some slavers into puppets to keep up appearances -- and then bring down the Force hammer on those who remain.

Offer them the chance to free their victims and turn over a new leaf, then respond accordingly.

After overturning a planet (or a system if that's more efficient), start making horrifying examples of the unrepentant to those who might aspire to own slaves in the future. Make them know it's a very bad idea.

It will be really weird if TROS suddenly tries to call the Jedi out on their slavery stance. Nobody seemed to care that much about the slaves on Jakku, Canto Bight, or the First Order stormtroopers (kidnapped child conscripts) up to now, not even Finn or Rey.
Well, ironically enough, here's this passage from "Aftermath: Empire's End":

---
"Leia, Kashyyyk was a fluke. We got lucky."
"I'm always lucky with you by my side, scoundrel."
He shakes his head. "You joke, but this is nuts."
"It's not nuts," she says, suddenly irritated. "What we did on Kashyyyk was the right thing to do, and you know it. If we could formalize that process, if we could target other worlds that the Senate is too cowardly to liberate, then maybe we could—with the unofficial sanction of our friendly chancellor—find a way to do right by those worlds. Which means not only do we save whole systems, but those systems might swing our way and join the chorus of voices here in the New Republic."
He sighs. "I dunno. Can't somebody else handle this? Just for now..."
"Look," she says, heading over to the star map. "Tatooine. Kerev Doi. Damesel. Horuz. All worlds still in thrall either to some Imperial remnant or to criminal syndicates or gangs. Rebellions work. We've seen it. We've helped make it happen."
"You know Mon's not going to go for that."
---

Of course, political shenanigans ensue and Leia never gets to carry this out.

As for weirdness from TRoS calling attention to slavery, I will call it really weird if it doesn't get brought up.

As we now know, he was neither overthrown nor defeated.
We don't know that, no. The Contingency was a contingency, not Plan A.

the destruction of Operation Cinder was to create massive bodycounts that might or might not account for every missing person as a cover to take his loyal troops and disappear into the Unknown Region.
And to cull the "weaknesses" in an empire that had failed to protect its emperor.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#81
@Clement Rage
That really doesn't sound very different from what I thought I've been proposing all along. Obviously you start small, doing some Jedi mind trickery on those slavers who aren't Force-resistant, to get the ball rolling. Learn how to locate and disable transmitters, free who can be freed subtly without raising an alarm, maybe even make some slavers into puppets to keep up appearances -- and then bring down the Force hammer on those who remain.

Offer them the chance to free their victims and turn over a new leaf, then respond accordingly.

After overturning a planet (or a system if that's more efficient), start making horrifying examples of the unrepentant to those who might aspire to own slaves in the future. Make them know it's a very bad idea.
This kinda thinking is how we get Darth Tyranuses.


We don't know that, no. The Contingency was a contingency, not Plan A.
Everything after Darth Maul got defeated on Naboo was a contingency to Plan A. The second Death Star itself was a back-up plan. Don't mean the greater battle against Emperor Palpatine was ever over in Episode 4 or 5.


And to cull the "weaknesses" in an empire that had failed to protect its emperor.
First Order seems to be almost designed to not be very robust, so I dunno if I'd agree with this is what he identified as the problem.
 
#82
Well, the key differences are the requirement of local leadership and no Jedi involvement. If the Jedi get involved, it doesn't work, or collapses into a bloodbath once they're forced to pull out due to a catastrophe somewhere else.

I feel like you're overestimating mind tricks. It seems to require a degree of trust, or at least doesn't work if someone's guard is up. Bane got brute forced once, but that requires a captive audience, three of the most powerful members of the Jedi Order in person, and time and effort. By the time you have someone captured, he's already blown up his slaves.

Horrifying examples lead to horrifying counterexamples of slaves in response. Is this not a problem?

The response of the Imperial Governor to the slave revolt on Kashyyyk was to bombard the Planet. There's no Republic Fleet Available to help if Jabba decides to do that (he's weaker than the Empire, but Tattooine's also much easier to depopulate.)

Slavery may be brought up in TROS, but if they call out Jedi inaction it will ring pretty hollow from these characters.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#83
This kinda thinking is how we get Darth Tyranuses.
Disillusionment with corrupt political systems and increasingly impotent judiciary? :awesome:

Everything after Darth Maul got defeated on Naboo was a contingency to Plan A.
Maul wasn't all that critical to the long-term plan.

The second Death Star itself was a back-up plan.
Okay, but the need for it doesn't change the intended purpose of the original. You're sort of implying that the creation of the second Death Star means the first was always meant to be blown up.

Don't mean the greater battle against Emperor Palpatine was ever over in Episode 4 or 5.
Okay, but the empire was defeated, and its emperor was deposed, even if not properly killed (which we're currently unsure about anyway).

Well, the key differences are the requirement of local leadership and no Jedi involvement.
Certainly local participation becomes necessary, which it almost certainly would. Anakin couldn't have been the only slave in the galaxy to be excited about the idea of Jedi freeing slaves.

If the Jedi get involved, it doesn't work, or collapses into a bloodbath once they're forced to pull out due to a catastrophe somewhere else.
Remember, we're entertaining the notion that they don't just operate with one arm tied behind their back by Republic red tape.

I feel like you're overestimating mind tricks. It seems to require a degree of trust, or at least doesn't work if someone's guard is up. Bane got brute forced once, but that requires a captive audience, three of the most powerful members of the Jedi Order in person, and time and effort. By the time you have someone captured, he's already blown up his slaves.
The scene with Rey and the Stormtrooper in TFA doesn't fit with any of that. And we've even seen that memories can be forcibly extracted.

Clearly, Jedi telepathic influence can be Jean Grey-levels of significant.

Horrifying examples lead to horrifying counterexamples of slaves in response. Is this not a problem?
That's why we're talking about a message meant for people who don't have slaves yet but think it would be a dandy idea. As I said, this is after already liberating a world or perhaps a system.

Now, if you want to make the argument that other slavers in other systems may catch wind of what's happened and start butchering their laborers pre-emptively, I won't utterly deny the possibility. I'll call jumping the blaster like that unlikely, though, and point out that it's nothing that couldn't have happened any time anyway if they heard that slavers in a neighboring system were arrested.

Also, it bears pointing out that the Outer Rim slavers didn't seem to have responded in that fashion to the abolishment of slavery further within the Republic's boundaries.

The response of the Imperial Governor to the slave revolt on Kashyyyk was to bombard the Planet. There's no Republic Fleet Available to help if Jabba decides to do that (he's weaker than the Empire, but Tattooine's also much easier to depopulate.)
Is never defying oppression the one sure way to avoid oppression? That didn't even help Naboo or Vardos.

Slavery may be brought up in TROS, but if they call out Jedi inaction it will ring pretty hollow from these characters.
The characters don't have to call them out by name in order for the narrative to.

Besides, thematically speaking, we really need a proper bookend to Anakin's reference in TPM to having a dream about coming back to Tatooine and freeing the slaves (an intention his daughter picked up until further bureaucratic bungling scuttled that). And also Shmi's sentiment that "The greatest problem in the galaxy is that no one ever helps each other."
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#84
Disillusionment with corrupt political systems and increasingly impotent judiciary? :awesome:
Yeah, disillusionment to the point of deciding to just using the Force to subjugate the will of others long term will lead you down a dark path, regardless of good initial intentions.

Maul wasn't all that critical to the long-term plan.
So it might seem in retrospect, but Palpatine still risks everything to replace his apprentice, every time. If Darth Sidious was only ever a shadowy figure Nute Gunray and General Grievous see in holo he'd be much securer. He clearly saw it critical to have an apprentice.

Okay, but the need for it doesn't change the intended purpose of the original. You're sort of implying that the creation of the second Death Star means the first was always meant to be blown up.
No? Just that the Empire did indeed Strike Back, cause victories can be fleeting if the rebels let them be such.

Okay, but the empire was defeated, and its emperor was deposed, even if not properly killed (which we're currently unsure about anyway).
Ilum, the planet that was converted to the Starkiller Base, is an Imperial world known to the New Republic that clearly never stopped being under Imperial rule. That entire system and all the planets where it was getting it's resources was under total control. Other planets like the one the likes of Finn was born on were on conquered or stayed conquered while others were freed. MORE territory changed hands after the second Death Star was destroyed then ever before, sure but it was not the end of the Emperor's rule. No more then the Emperor was deposed when they lost Lothal. He was still the Emperor, even on Lothal. And what do you mean we do not know. There is a physical throne. It stands to reason a physical person sits on it. When the people that built that throne talk about how great the "end" of Imperial rule was, then we can talk.

Besides, thematically speaking, we really need a proper bookend to Anakin's reference in TPM to having a dream about coming back to Tatooine and freeing the slaves (an intention his daughter picked up until further bureaucratic bungling scuttled that). And also Shmi's sentiment that "The greatest problem in the galaxy is that no one ever helps each other."
I don't think Leia's throwaway line in a tie-in novel is enough to turn into a Skywalker saga wide theme. If they want to ascribe these motivations to Leia, they can do this is in Extended Editions, Rogue One, The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi. Didn't seem important enough for any of that. Don't see why it will be in the Rise of Skywalker.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#85
Yeah, disillusionment to the point of deciding to just using the Force to subjugate the will of others long term will lead you down a dark path, regardless of good initial intentions.
"From a certain point of view," imprisoning slavetraders and corrupt politicians is subjugating their will. Whether through that or Force mind-control or public evisceration to say "Don't be like them", subjugating the will of such villains is no skin off my spiritual back.

So it might seem in retrospect, but Palpatine still risks everything to replace his apprentice, every time. If Darth Sidious was only ever a shadowy figure Nute Gunray and General Grievous see in holo he'd be much securer. He clearly saw it critical to have an apprentice.
Sith have an odd compulsion with that for some reason. All three of Palpatine's apprentices even had apprentices of their own -- two of them doing so even while still serving Palpatine, as Palpatine himself did while still serving Plagueis.

Maybe it's a compulsion for Force-wielders in general, actually? It makes for an almost comical catch-22 with Sith, though, since they invariably want to replace their masters while simultaneously insisting on having apprentices, creating and repeating a cycle.

In whatever case, having an apprentice is what was important to Palpatine. He didn't give two tugs of a cracked kyber crystal about Maul himself. Remember what he ended up doing to him in TCW and "Son of Dathomir"? Or how willing he was in SoD to risk losing both Dooku and Grievous at Maul's hands in order to maneuver Maul into a vulnerable position?

For that matter, Anakin -- and through Anakin, greater power in the Force -- was Palpatine's end goal. Maul's days were always numbered as Sidious's apprentice.

No? Just that the Empire did indeed Strike Back, cause victories can be fleeting if the rebels let them be such.
Well, your response to my pointing out that the Contingency was what its name implies rather than always being The Plan was to say "The second Death Star itself was a back-up plan." And that stage of the discussion had germinated from your claim that the purpose of Operation: Cinder was to feign the Empire's demise rather than being a genuine result of Imperial defeat.

Ilum, the planet that was converted to the Starkiller Base, is an Imperial world known to the New Republic that clearly never stopped being under Imperial rule. That entire system and all the planets where it was getting it's resources was under total control. Other planets like the one the likes of Finn was born on were on conquered or stayed conquered while others were freed. MORE territory changed hands after the second Death Star was destroyed then ever before, sure but it was not the end of the Emperor's rule.
Palpatine didn't have anything to do with any of that, though. At least not so far as we're aware. If it turns out that Snoke was his puppet or something, maybe, but the First Order had not always been under Snoke's command either.

And what do you mean we do not know. There is a physical throne. It stands to reason a physical person sits on it.
Or is intended to. Truth be told, we don't presently know whether Sidious's body actually survived the destruction of the second Death Star or if he is trying to attain physical form once more. Either way, it's not pertinent to the larger point.

The larger point is that Palpatine was deposed. Ousted. Defeated. Got his ass kicked.

The Contingency was a contingency, and it went into effect because Sidious was beaten, not because it was The Plan All Along.

If you're not claiming that, and instead claiming a pedantic-yet-still-inaccurate position that nothing short of utter annihilation with precisely no chance of ever "striking back" amounts to either the Empire or its Emperor genuinely being defeated ... then you will have to retract your (admittedly hilarious) comment that "The resistance survived the Last Jedi intact about as much as the Jedi Order survived the prequels intact." Because right now The Resistance is more or less doing what the Imperial remnants that became the First Order did ... only they're doing it about 25 years faster, and without having ever signed an armistice the way the Imperial remnants did.

I don't think Leia's throwaway line in a tie-in novel is enough to turn into a Skywalker saga wide theme. If they want to ascribe these motivations to Leia, they can do this is in Extended Editions, Rogue One, The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi. Didn't seem important enough for any of that. Don't see why it will be in the Rise of Skywalker.
The story people at Lucasfilm have given me confidence thus far that there is a unified vision at work. I'm willing to be disappointed, but don't expect to be.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#86
"From a certain point of view," imprisoning slavetraders and corrupt politicians is subjugating their will. Whether through that or Force mind-control or public evisceration to say "Don't be like them", subjugating the will of such villains is no skin off my spiritual back.
Horrifying displays of power and turning people into puppets would be some skin off a Jedi's spiritual back. And no, I don't agree training Anakin in the Force in all cool fighty ways but not all the lame Jedi ways was an option.

Sith have an odd compulsion with that for some reason. All three of Palpatine's apprentices even had apprentices of their own -- two of them doing so even while still serving Palpatine, as Palpatine himself did while still serving Plagueis.

Maybe it's a compulsion for Force-wielders in general, actually? It makes for an almost comical catch-22 with Sith, though, since they invariably want to replace their masters while simultaneously insisting on having apprentices, creating and repeating a cycle.

In whatever case, having an apprentice is what was important to Palpatine. He didn't give two tugs of a cracked kyber crystal about Maul himself. Remember what he ended up doing to him in TCW and "Son of Dathomir"? Or how willing he was in SoD to risk losing both Dooku and Grievous at Maul's hands in order to maneuver Maul into a vulnerable position?

For that matter, Anakin -- and through Anakin, greater power in the Force -- was Palpatine's end goal. Maul's days were always numbered as Sidious's apprentice.
Palpatine didn't plan for the Naboo survivors to land on Tatioone, find a slave, free him and the Jedi ambassadors to commit to training him. The plan was for Maul to kill everyone in Episode I and go from there. After Maul's supposed death the Palpatine went with Plan B, which he didn't then abort cause Maul turned out to be alive. He was rather irrelevant by that point yes.

Well, your response to my pointing out that the Contingency was what its name implies rather than always being The Plan was to say "The second Death Star itself was a back-up plan." And that stage of the discussion had germinated from your claim that the purpose of Operation: Cinder was to feign the Empire's demise rather than being a genuine result of Imperial defeat.
It was the result of a Imperial defeat, yes. Not the end of their fight.

Palpatine didn't have anything to do with any of that, though. At least not so far as we're aware. If it turns out that Snoke was his puppet or something, maybe, but the First Order had not always been under Snoke's command either.
The First Order was born from Operation Cinder which was carried out at the not quite so late Palpatine's instruction. That first order is what led them to where they are today. Where Palpatine's voice is seemingly taking reigns. And again, this new Star Destroyer fleet that gets unveiled can't be empty.

Or is intended to. Truth be told, we don't presently know whether Sidious's body actually survived the destruction of the second Death Star or if he is trying to attain physical form once more. Either way, it's not pertinent to the larger point.

The larger point is that Palpatine was deposed. Ousted. Defeated. Got his ass kicked.

The Contingency was a contingency, and it went into effect because Sidious was beaten, not because it was The Plan All Along.

If you're not claiming that, and instead claiming a pedantic-yet-still-inaccurate position that nothing short of utter annihilation with precisely no chance of ever "striking back" amounts to either the Empire or its Emperor genuinely being defeated ... then you will have to retract your (admittedly hilarious) comment that "The resistance survived the Last Jedi intact about as much as the Jedi Order survived the prequels intact." Because right now The Resistance is more or less doing what the Imperial remnants that became the First Order did ... only they're doing it about 25 years faster, and without having ever signed an armistice the way the Imperial remnants did.
Again, the First Order constituted millions of people that never stopped living by the Emperor's command. In human terms, that's a civilisation unto itself. The 15 people aboard the Millenium Falcon, not so much. I'll have to see how the thousands of new ships are justified as joining the Resistance fleet of one rather then the other way around.

Why does the destruction of the Death Star, that did not constitute the end of multiple planets and their populations' fate being decided by the Emperor's continuing merciless orders, represent an unqualified win that meant everyone should pad themselves on the back and go home, as they eventually did, but the Jedi Order should've reject the peace throughout the Republic outright as not worth it and brainwashed them into a war on the Outer Rim while there is even one slave left in the galaxy.
 
#87
It'll ring really hollow if they start thematically calling out Jedi inaction while everyone in the ST is performing so much worse.

Look at Niima outpost. None of the reasons not to liberate Tattooine exist. There are no transmitters. Unkar Plutt's hold of over them is based solely on controlling the food, his muscle is composed of two thugs that Rey can literally beat by herself with a stick.

The First Order doesn't control Jakku, it's not hidden in the unknown regions, and the Resistance has a presence there. But nobody does a thing. Not the Republic, not the Resistance, not even Rey, who can do it herself, because she can fly starships to get food. Rose is given the chance to free slaves and frees Fathiers instead. The first order ground troops are conscripted, brainwashed, child slaves, and nobody hesitates to murder them or tries to free them, not even Finn (the closest we get are deleted scenes). All you have to do is give them an alternate source of food, and Plutt ends up hung from the nearest tentpole. But no one did a thing.

Leia allows politics to stop her, even when she specifically has a personal army designed to be unfettered by politics in the Resistance.

Rey's Rey. "I've seen this raw strength only once before" Rey. She's a special case.

That's why we're talking about a message meant for people who don't have slaves yet but think it would be a dandy idea. As I said, this is after already liberating a world or perhaps a system.
I mean, you can't broadcast torture of slaveowners with a label of 'if you own slaves, this will be you' and expect only people that don't own slaves to see it. Other slaveowning worlds could easily butcher some of their slaves in response, and become more likely to do so if the new slave revolt start to spread.

Remember, we're entertaining the notion that they don't just operate with one arm tied behind their back by Republic red tape.
Yes, I'm accounting for that. There are only 10,000 Jedi. It's very firmly established that they cannot face armies alone, and Jabba's crews are very well armed. Let's say the
Jedi successfully conquer Tattooine. Either they all stay there, or they move on to other slaveowning worlds. If the revolt is Jedi led, then the second the Jedi leave, the Hutts strike back and re establish slavery. Unless it can fend for itself, which is why you need a non Jedi leader and structures. Otherwise, when the Jedi move on to free another world, it instantly collapses to Hutt counterattack.

Is never defying oppression the one sure way to avoid oppression? That didn't even help Naboo or Vardos.
No. But you can't make plans heedless to the costs to the oppressed. Assuming the Rebel Alliance knew about Cinder, they can still take a shot at the Emperor. But I'd expect them to try to counter Cinder as well, not just accept it as the cost of doing business.

Wait, Starkiller was Ilum? That's canon? Wow, it wasn't even hidden in the Unknown Regions, and still no one noticed the damn thing in advance.

We don't know what's up with Palpatine yet (it's kind of odd that there's no shot of him in the trailer, tbh) but it's going to be a very tricky landing
to pull off.If he's physically alive, I'll have to wonder why he didn't just fly back to Coruscant and take back his throne.
 
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Lulcielid

Media Thinker
AKA
Lucis Caelum
#88
It'll ring really hollow if they start thematically calling out Jedi inaction while everyone in the ST is performing so much worse.
Does that mean any civil & /non-governmental movements that've being subdued by goverment's force are hollow because they didn't perform well yet?

I guess Greenpeace is hollow because they haven't changed industrial companies from poluting in spite of their efforts?

Imo, a movement/idea is hollow only when you don't follow or act the words you preach, i.e: "Poluting is bad and we should stop" -says the guy that throws cans on the street instead of the trash can.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#89
Thought about the whole "Jedi freeing Tattooine" thing...

I don't think anyone was expecting that to literally happen. However, the Jedi do operate under the jurisdiction of the rest of the Republic. You have to wonder how the Republic came off to the people in the Outer Rim. For the downtrodden and oppressed, the Republic was probably seen as a bastion of hope that could one day somehow come and free them. Or a place of freedom they could escape too.

While the Jedi freeing slaves all by themselves isn't something most people would think is realistic, the Jedi checking out Tattooine for the purpose of getting word back to the Repubic about what the societal and political situation of Tattooine would be very realistic. The Jedi would make for great spies and scouts to see "what is really going on" at the ground level.

I've always taken Anakin's question to Qui-Gon as less of a literal "have you, Qui-Gon, come to free slaves" and more of a "have you, and the people you represent, come to free slaves". Which could be everyone from the Jedi to the people of Naboo to the Senate themselves (since the Senate was the ones who sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to "negotate" with the Trade Federation on Naboo in the first place). Only the Republic isn't interested in freeing slaves at all. They're too embroiled in trying to keep the Trade Federation from leaving the Republic and have no intention of trying to make life better outside of the Republic.

Whatever hopes anyone downtrodden outside the Republic had for the Republic to come help them out or for it to be a bastion of hope they could run to turns out to be a false hope by the end of the TP. The entire TP is really about the formal death of the Republic (it had been spiritually dying for years long before the TP even starts) and the rise of the Empire.
 
#90
Does that mean any civil & /non-governmental movements that've being subdued by goverment's force are hollow because they didn't perform well yet?

I guess Greenpeace is hollow because they haven't changed industrial companies from poluting in spite of their efforts?

Imo, a movement/idea is hollow only when you don't follow or act the words you preach, i.e: "Poluting is bad and we should stop" -says the guy that throws cans on the street instead of the trash can.
That's... my entire point. You're right, but if you're going to apply that to the ST, then it applies to the Jedi as well. We don't have the wider context for the galaxy, we're all just making assumptions, but if the assumption is being made that the Jedi are acting in bad faith but the Resistance is not, we need some reason to believe that, otherwise it's just 'I choose to believe that the people I don't like are not trying to help, and that the people I do like are trying to help', regardless of any evidence.

That's why the ST writing is so weak, they have to keep retconning in faults that weren't there to begin in with in order to look better by comparison. But then they have to keep stakes in their own story, and the worldbuilding isn't as well thought out, probably due to time pressure and getting things out before a deadline. That's why the story keeps eating itself.

Thought about the whole "Jedi freeing Tattooine" thing...

I don't think anyone was expecting that to literally happen.
TTM seems to be, there are several long posts to that effect.

Anakin is nine, it's highly unlikely he has detailed intelligence on the politics of the Republic. He wants to be free, because of course he does. Maybe he's heard stories of them freeing slaves elsewhere, which they do seem to have done before.

The Republic struggles to stop the TF from blockading a member state, it's not in a position to enforce its will beyond its borders. Notably, they don't have an army, so they have no way of enforcing their will on Tattooine in the first place. Chancellor Valorum does care about Naboo, but still can't get anything done, because he's being blocked in the Senate. Anakin wants the slaves to be free, but that's just very difficult to achieve without a war. And to quote Discworld for a moment,

"We do not in fact have an army. I am not of course a military man, but I believe one of those is generally considered necessary for the successful prosecution of a war."
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#91
Horrifying displays of power and turning people into puppets would be some skin off a Jedi's spiritual back.
I guess that's why they ended up ineffectual: one arm tied by the Republic, the other by their own misplaced concerns.

And no, I don't agree training Anakin in the Force in all cool fighty ways but not all the lame Jedi ways was an option.
Of course it was. Those lame ways weren't necessary to begin with. XD

Palpatine didn't plan for the Naboo survivors to land on Tatioone, find a slave, free him and the Jedi ambassadors to commit to training him. The plan was for Maul to kill everyone in Episode I and go from there. After Maul's supposed death then Palpatine went with Plan B, which he didn't then abort cause Maul turned out to be alive.
Whether going by the old EU/Legends or the new canon, though, Anakin was Palpatine's intended true apprentice. Like I said, Maul's days as Palpatine's apprentice were always numbered.

And even if they weren't, needing to replace him isn't equivalent to the entire forward motion of Palpatine's plan for control getting scuttled.

It was the result of a Imperial defeat, yes. Not the end of their fight.
I guess ...

That's too semantic a thing for us to really pin down, though. I don't know to what extent passage of time, players involved, treaties signed, etc. should definitively mark the end of one conflict and the beginning of another.

The First Order was born from Operation Cinder which was carried out at the not quite so late Palpatine's instruction. That first order is what led them to where they are today. Where Palpatine's voice is seemingly taking reigns. And again, this new Star Destroyer fleet that gets unveiled can't be empty.
Answers regarding that fleet are definitely central to our question.

Again, the First Order constituted millions of people that never stopped living by the Emperor's command.
Looking at real-world religion, though, there are literally billions who are still following the commands of dead people from many centuries ago. We wouldn't say that those figures are still in command, though, in the absence of their direct involvement.

Why does the destruction of the Death Star, that did not constitute the end of multiple planets and their populations' fate being decided by the Emperor's continuing merciless orders, represent an unqualified win that meant everyone should pad themselves on the back and go home, as they eventually did, but the Jedi Order should've reject the peace throughout the Republic outright as not worth it and brainwashed them into a war on the Outer Rim while there is even one slave left in the galaxy.
I don't know why you're making this comparison. Or why so much of the discussion in this thread keeps coming back to irrelevant and unnecessary comparisons like this of "who is better" in a particular context -- e.g. the strawmans earlier that seemed to be trying to separate Qui-Gon from the rest of the Jedi Order.

As usual, this comparison is less a matter of "who is better" than "who arguably fucked up the least," but even so, the question entails that there were major missteps by all -- so it's kind of an irrelevant question for our purposes in this conversation.

All those irrelevancies aside: In addition to what @Obsidian Fire poignantly summarized, that peace you speak of throughout much of the Republic does nothing for the folks unfortunate enough to have been born (or suffered a breakdown or sabotaging) on a world far from Coruscant. "What, to the slave, is the Fourth of July?" and all that.

It'll ring really hollow if they start thematically calling out Jedi inaction while everyone in the ST is performing so much worse.

Look at Niima outpost. None of the reasons not to liberate Tattooine exist. There are no transmitters. Unkar Plutt's hold of over them is based solely on controlling the food, his muscle is composed of two thugs that Rey can literally beat by herself with a stick.

The First Order doesn't control Jakku, it's not hidden in the unknown regions, and the Resistance has a presence there. But nobody does a thing. Not the Republic, not the Resistance, not even Rey, who can do it herself, because she can fly starships to get food. Rose is given the chance to free slaves and frees Fathiers instead. The first order ground troops are conscripted, brainwashed, child slaves, and nobody hesitates to murder them or tries to free them, not even Finn (the closest we get are deleted scenes). All you have to do is give them an alternate source of food, and Plutt ends up hung from the nearest tentpole. But no one did a thing.
Not that I disagree that Unkar Plutt is a rat bastard who needed a good ass beating, but from what we know about him, he Isn't a slaver ... At least no more so than the biggest employer in any poor, small community in the real world.

Yes, now that he has won the game of capitalism and is the only option for trade in his community, he's maintaining that position through intimidation, but to anyone who doesn't deal with him, he's a legitimate, if thuggish, businessman who beat out his local competitors.

It also bears some consideration that people living around the outpost are choosing to take their chances with Plutt. There are no transmitter chips keeping people bound to him. In Rey's case, for instance, she stays because of mistaken wishful-thinking that her parents will come back for her.

So what you're essentially asking is "While dodging assassination attempts and futilely trying to convince the New Republic to confront issues like slavery and the rise of a new Empire, why didn't Leia end poverty?"

We should also probably ask why one of those legendary local rebellions you spoke of so much didn't spontaneously materialize to take care of Plutt and his handful of ruffians. :monster:

Finally, I'm unaware of The Resistance having a presence on Jakku. They made an ally in Lor San Tekka shortly before the events of TFA, but Jakku was generally considered the ass end of space.

Leia allows politics to stop her, even when she specifically has a personal army designed to be unfettered by politics in the Resistance.
She didn't have The Resistance until five or six years prior to TFA. She spent more than two decades being mostly ignored or accused of warmongering by her should-have-been-allies once it was publicly revealed that her father was Darth Vader.

Uncovering some evidence that the First Order was planning conquest, and had even infiltrated the Senate, gained her enough support and funding to break away from the New Republic, but even then, those senators who offered funding or lip support mostly did so in secret.

I mean, you can't broadcast torture of slaveowners with a label of 'if you own slaves, this will be you' and expect only people that don't own slaves to see it. Other slaveowning worlds could easily butcher some of their slaves in response, and become more likely to do so if the new slave revolt start to spread.
As I said, they're unlikely to sabotage their own way of life until retribution is on their doorstep. The Republic had outlawed slavery long before TPM, and slavers on the worlds that the Republic tended to overlook carried on without even making a secret of it.

Yes, I'm accounting for that. There are only 10,000 Jedi. It's very firmly established that they cannot face armies alone, and Jabba's crews are very well armed. Let's say the Jedi successfully conquer Tattooine. Either they all stay there, or they move on to other slaveowning worlds. If the revolt is Jedi led, then the second the Jedi leave, the Hutts strike back and re establish slavery. Unless it can fend for itself, which is why you need a non Jedi leader and structures. Otherwise, when the Jedi move on to free another world, it instantly collapses to Hutt counterattack.
Does it really need to be specified that non-Jedi power structures would be necessary going forward? There are things that are so inherently obvious as to not require pointing out.

Wait Starkiller was Ilum? That's canon?
Oddly never confirmed outright, but they have the same precise diameter; occupy the same sector of space; have the same topography and mineral deposits; both have been described with a history of being strip-mined by the Empire for kyber crystals; and both bear the same burrowed-out equator.

Wow, it wasn't even hidden in the Unknown Regions, and still no one noticed the damn thing in advance.
Ilum was said to be in the Unknown Regions, as was Starkiller Base's point of origin.

That's... my entire point. You're right, but if you're going to apply that to the ST, then it applies to the Jedi as well. We don't have the wider context for the galaxy, we're all just making assumptions, but if the assumption is being made that the Jedi are acting in bad faith but the Resistance is not, we need some reason to believe that, otherwise it's just 'I choose to believe that the people I don't like are not trying to help, and that the people I do like are trying to help', regardless of any evidence.
Where has anyone said anything about the Jedi Order acting in bad faith? Ascribing to them mismanagement and being obtuse is not leveling claims of malice at them.

That's why the ST writing is so weak, they have to keep retconning in faults that weren't there to begin in with in order to look better by comparison.
Yet somehow, some way, many of us have been feeling this way about the Jedi Order since long before the Sequel Trilogy was ever a twinkle in a mouse's eye. 🤔

The Republic struggles to stop the TF from blockading a member state, it's not in a position to enforce its will beyond its borders. Notably, they don't have an army, so they have no way of enforcing their will on Tattooine in the first place.
They have about 10,000 superhuman peacekeepers -- which makes for quite the elaborate euphemism for "an army."

Or was that Already Very Successful Peace Throughout Much of the Galaxy you continue citing achieved with meditative discussions over tea?
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#92
I guess that's why they ended up ineffectual: one arm tied by the Republic, the other by their own misplaced concerns.

Of course it was. Those lame ways weren't necessary to begin with. XD
We see what acting on his emotions does to Anakin, even when Padme is gone, he is free from the Jedi Order and Palpatine has lost all leverage over him, he still finds himself unable or unwilling to act against him. Same with Count Dooku, all the concerns he brings up with Obi-Wan have plenty merit, by the time he was face to face with the source of the corruption in the Senate he no longer cared enough to act against it. Same with Kylo, he was angry and afraid of Luke and ran away, now he has probably more blood on his hands then Palpatine. The path that the Jedis try to prevent forceusers going down does exist and takes hold of you very quickly.



Whether going by the old EU/Legends or the new canon, though, Anakin was Palpatine's intended true apprentice. Like I said, Maul's days as Palpatine's apprentice were always numbered.

And even if they weren't, needing to replace him isn't equivalent to the entire forward motion of Palpatine's plan for control getting scuttled.
No, I argue he needed to pivot a bit, same with the destruction of the first Death Star,

I guess ...

That's too semantic a thing for us to really pin down, though. I don't know to what extent passage of time, players involved, treaties signed, etc. should definitively mark the end of one conflict and the beginning of another.
Tarkin in the new Canon was given command of the entire Outer Rim to leverage them for resources to make the Death Star, which is nothing compared to the resources required to create immense Starkiller Base. The manpower and network or resources that tells us they had command og is an interstellar empire unto itself in my mind, if not quite galactic one anymore. Construction started long before Snoke or Kylo Ren were in the picture and it was always made with the intent of conquering back their lost territory, in light of that whatever treaties were you claim were signed don't seem that indicative that the war was ended successfully in my mind.


Looking at real-world religion, though, there are literally billions who are still following the commands of dead people from many centuries ago. We wouldn't say that those figures are still in command, though, in the absence of their direct involvement.
Those people didn't go "You, you, you sand you: Burn this planet/fleet, go to this region, make this thing, wait until it's completion in 30 years." Then 30 years later we hear it's voice again. In the years following the destruction of the second Death Star, Palpatine was still micromanaging on a scale of which individual ship captains sends their ship to destroy, to hide, make truces or go on suicide missions. Dead or not, that's a pretty direct level of command if you ask me.

I don't know why you're making this comparison. Or why so much of the discussion in this thread keeps coming back to irrelevant and unnecessary comparisons like this of "who is better" in a particular context -- e.g. the strawmans earlier that seemed to be trying to separate Qui-Gon from the rest of the Jedi Order.

As usual, this comparison is less a matter of "who is better" than "who arguably fucked up the least," but even so, the question entails that there were major missteps by all -- so it's kind of an irrelevant question for our purposes in this conversation.

All those irrelevancies aside: In addition to what @Obsidian Fire poignantly summarized, that peace you speak of throughout much of the Republic does nothing for the folks unfortunate enough to have been born (or suffered a breakdown or sabotaging) on a world far from Coruscant. "What, to the slave, is the Fourth of July?" and all that.
It's not a matter of who is better, it's that Star Wars, at least the prequel trilogy and sequel trilogy agrees that democracy isn't and can't be perfect. Free will means allowing people the free will to not help you do this and that as well. For things that happen on Tatioone to be illegal, you need to have laws agreed upon by the majority and when the elected representative of the majority tells you another thing you shouldn't do right now, you are expected to listen. That's the price. Doesn't mean the Jedi or Leia should turn their backs on the whole restoring the rule of law to the galaxy rather then the Emperor's tyrannical Empire idea. But 10,000 Jedi who no one elected to start wars for them should not be deciding when this or that planet is going to be brought into the Republic against the Republic and that planet's population's will.

And as Luke says, that was the Jedi at the height of their power. Their headquarters, their starfighters, their resources were provided by the Republic and those 10000 jedi themselves were born in the Republic and were brought to Jedi as Qui-Gon describes because they have that legal presence within the Republic. There's no version of the Jedi where they have nothing to do with Republic, yet have grown to a size where they have any kind of ability to do anything to help enforce peace and justice on a galactic scale. In over a thousand generations that did never happened.
 
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AKA
The Engineer
#93
There's no version of the Jedi where they have nothing to do with Republic, yet have grown to a size where they have any kind of ability to do anything to help enforce peace and justice on a galactic scale. In over a thousand generations that did never happened.
And I'd say that never happened for a reason. One of the big questions I think the overall Start Wars series asks is "What is the real purpose of the Jedi?"

The Jedi as of the PT seem to think it's being state-funded peace-keeping superheroes. Mainly because they think the Big Bad Sith were taken care of so long ago, it's not something they worry about anymore. So they can do things like "keeping the peace" on a large scale. At least until those very same Sith come out of hiding and end the Jedi Order as it was known in less then ten years.

The thing is, "keeping the peace" isn't something only the Jedi can do well. It's entirely possible for normal non-Jedi to make the effort to do that to without superpowers. That is the entire point of the Senate. What normal non-Jedi can not do is keep the Force Using Supervillains from messing around with the normal word. That is only something the Jedi can do. And for... a very, very long time before the PT, the Sith weren't even on the Jedi's radar as a problem they should be concerned with. I think the Jedi stopped doing the one thing they had to do so they could do something else instead. And in the process, they lost their purpose for why the Jedi were even an order in the first place.

The OT isn't about Luke becoming a Jedi so that he can be a "peacekeeper" like the Jedi Order was. He became a Jedi to fight the Sith, which is something only the Jedi can really do. I do have to say I'm interested in what his goals were for the order of Jedi he was coming up with before the ST which isn't gone into in the movies in much detail. If it was to be a "peackeeper"... I don't think that would really fix any of the problems the Jedi had in the PT.
 
#94
Not that I disagree that Unkar Plutt is a rat bastard who needed a good ass beating, but from what we know about him, he Isn't a slaver ... At least no more so than the biggest employer in any poor, small community in the real world.
Rey was explicitly 'sold', and he pays people in food. What choices do those people have? Trade for Unkar's food, or walk into the desert and die of thirst? Rey has the option of stealing a starship, but not everyone knows how to do that. Finn walked in from the countryside, and was so desperately dehydrated in less than a day that he stole from that animal trough.

If they're not slaves, what's the actual difference?

Jakku shouldn't be nowhere. It's the scene of the final defeat of the Galactic Empire, it's 'nowhere' the same way El Alamein or Midway Atoll are. The NR should be paying attention to it, for historical reasons if nothing else. Leia has heard of it, and has to know something about it if she's sending Poe there.

She didn't have The Resistance until five or six years prior to TFA. She spent more than two decades being mostly ignored or accused of warmongering by her should-have-been-allies once it was publicly revealed that her father was Darth Vader.

Uncovering some evidence that the First Order was planning conquest, and had even infiltrated the Senate, gained her enough support and funding to break away from the New Republic, but even then, those senators who offered funding or lip support mostly did so in secret.
So? Back in the Galactic Empire days she was flying mercy missions against the will of the rulership, why should she let politics stop her now?

As I said, they're unlikely to sabotage their own way of life until retribution is on their doorstep. The Republic had outlawed slavery long before TPM, and slavers on the worlds that the Republic tended to overlook carried on without even making a secret of it.
If they're afraid the Jedi could come for them next, they could easily do a few as a 'don't even think about it', and Tattooine is only one of the many Hutt worlds.

Does it really need to be specified that non-Jedi power structures would be necessary going forward? There are things that are so inherently obvious as to not require pointing out.
If the Jedi decide to conquer Tattooine, and put someone in place as the head, no one will actually believe he/she has any power, because it's wholly beholden to the Jedi. If he does something the Jedi don't like, they'll just depose them and put in someone else. And if the Jedi ever leave, the new ruler won't have the power to maintain himself, and the regime will fall.

A Jedi army unilaterally conquering Tattooine means that the non Jedi structures are dependent on them, and very fragile as a result.

They have about 10,000 superhuman peacekeepers -- which makes for quite the elaborate euphemism for "an army."

Or was that Already Very Successful Peace Throughout Much of the Galaxy you continue citing achieved with meditative discussions over tea?
It's very firmly established that they're not equivalent to an army, and can't fight wars alone. Part of that peace would have been discussions, dispute resolution, bodyguarding people, rescuing prisoners, protecting people from bandits, etc. They're very firm on the idea that the Jedi are not enough in a large scale conflict, and this assessment is proven correct over and over, as we see Jedi get overwhelmed without support.

The comparisons to the PT keep happening because I brought up my disappointment towards the at best absence and at worst outright disdain (the Jar Jar joke) towards it in the ST's production, and you felt the themes were being paid off, and we're in dispute over that.

IX is still up in the air of course, but JJ seems to be talking about setting right stuff that happened in the previous generation...but no one is performing any better so far.

I could still be proven wrong, but so far, if they try to address the failures of the previous generation, it will look something like this.

Rey: You all were so blind, letting yourselves be distracted by Palpatine's Separatist sock puppet and not seeing the true threat he posed.

Palpatine: Hello there. Since you were distracted by my First Order sock puppet, you didn't see the true threat I posed. Actually, it was much easier this time.
Where has anyone said anything about the Jedi Order acting in bad faith? Ascribing to them mismanagement and being obtuse is not leveling claims of malice at them.
Okay I'll rephrase. We are faced with similar situations in the ST and PT, where slavery exists in certain spots in the galaxy, and those in authority have done little to stop it. For the Jedi, you're inclined to assume that their inaction is based on 'indifference' and 'myopia', but for Leia and the Resistance, you're willing to assume inability is the reason for it. We need some reason for making one assumption over the other in those cases.

Yet somehow, some way, many of us have been feeling this way about the Jedi Order since long before the Sequel Trilogy was ever a twinkle in a mouse's eye. 🤔
Lots of people have been feeling that the Resistance bombers in TLJ are worthless and too easy to explode to ever be effective in combat. If you go back and look at the scene, though, they actually just got really unlucky, the TIE fighter happened to crash into the bomber bay in the brief moment between when the bombs were armed and when they were launched. The million to one shot went against the rebels for once, which is a quite cool touch actually. Lots of people continue to feel those bombers are worthless, but that doesn't make it correct.

And I'd say that never happened for a reason. One of the big questions I think the overall Start Wars series asks is "What is the real purpose of the Jedi?"

The Jedi as of the PT seem to think it's being state-funded peace-keeping superheroes. Mainly because they think the Big Bad Sith were taken care of so long ago, it's not something they worry about anymore. So they can do things like "keeping the peace" on a large scale. At least until those very same Sith come out of hiding and end the Jedi Order as it was known in less then ten years.

The thing is, "keeping the peace" isn't something only the Jedi can do well. It's entirely possible for normal non-Jedi to make the effort to do that to without superpowers. That is the entire point of the Senate. What normal non-Jedi can not do is keep the Force Using Supervillains from messing around with the normal word. That is only something the Jedi can do. And for... a very, very long time before the PT, the Sith weren't even on the Jedi's radar as a problem they should be concerned with. I think the Jedi stopped doing the one thing they had to do so they could do something else instead. And in the process, they lost their purpose for why the Jedi were even an order in the first place.

The OT isn't about Luke becoming a Jedi so that he can be a "peacekeeper" like the Jedi Order was. He became a Jedi to fight the Sith, which is something only the Jedi can really do. I do have to say I'm interested in what his goals were for the order of Jedi he was coming up with before the ST which isn't gone into in the movies in much detail. If it was to be a "peackeeper"... I don't think that would really fix any of the problems the Jedi had in the PT.
The thing is, I don't see how any of that helps.

Suppose the Jedi take no role in the Republic. Palpatine infiltrates the government much more easily, enacts the same plan, and then orders his new armies to exterminate of the Jedi. Or engineers the same civil war, forcing the Jedi to pick a side or be hunted down by both sides, and then pulls the same trick.

Luke's Jedi had no role in the Republic, but they ended up massacred anyway.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#95
We see what acting on his emotions does to Anakin ...
More precisely, do you mean we see what he does while acting on his emotions after growing up in an emotionally unnatural and unhealthy environment in which he was -- by the most generous and least damaging interpretation -- encouraged to hide his emotions, inevitably leading to them becoming isolated in a single fixation?

If so, I agree. But that's really the only somewhat kind way we can describe it.

Maybe things would still have happened similarly under other conditions, but we can see how they not-maybe-definitely went this way, and identify how these conditions actually contributed to the outcome.

... even when Padme is gone, he is free from the Jedi Order and Palpatine has lost all leverage over him, he still finds himself unable or unwilling to act against him. Same with Count Dooku, all the concerns he brings up with Obi-Wan have plenty merit, by the time he was face to face with the source of the corruption in the Senate he no longer cared enough to act against it. Same with Kylo, he was angry and afraid of Luke and ran away, now he has probably more blood on his hands then Palpatine. The path that the Jedis try to prevent forceusers going down does exist and takes hold of you very quickly.
It's also plenty interesting where these three great Dark Side Force-wielders began their studies, isn't it? :awesome:

To be clear, I'm not at all suggesting that beginning as a Jedi means you're going to become a Dark Side menace, because that's obviously not true. I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying that the Jedi path didn't offer Dooku or Anakin any constructive way to deal with either a sense of societal injustice or isolation and personal loss. Their way was inadequate for addressing these feelings.

Luke's misstep with Ben should probably be categorized as a different matter from these, but I had to take the opportunity to make that dig above. :monster:

Tarkin in the new Canon was given command of the entire Outer Rim to leverage them for resources to make the Death Star, which is nothing compared to the resources required to create immense Starkiller Base. The manpower and network or resources that tells us they had command og is an interstellar empire unto itself in my mind, if not quite galactic one anymore. Construction started long before Snoke or Kylo Ren were in the picture and it was always made with the intent of conquering back their lost territory, in light of that whatever treaties were you claim were signed don't seem that indicative that the war was ended successfully in my mind.
That's why I said it's too semantic for us to arrive at an unqualified conclusion. To some people, the notion that a 30-year-gap is only a lull in the fighting of the same war would be absurd, particularly when one party openly slunk into the shadows to rebuild. Even your own wording (i.e. about whether the war was ended successfully) speaks to the sort of unavoidable qualifying inherent in describing the matter.

To my own mind, it's more simple to refer to the periods of conflict depicted in the Skywalker Saga as the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil War, and ... the Reylo Wars maybe?

Those people didn't go "You, you, you sand you: Burn this planet/fleet, go to this region, make this thing, wait until it's completion in 30 years." Then 30 years later we hear it's voice again. In the years following the destruction of the second Death Star, Palpatine was still micromanaging on a scale of which individual ship captains sends their ship to destroy, to hide, make truces or go on suicide missions. Dead or not, that's a pretty direct level of command if you ask me.
I mean, has it been established that Palpatine told anyone to build Starkiller Base or to wait 30 years or any of the rest of what happened after the Contingency went into effect? My understanding is that the First Order developed the Starkiller weapon as a show of itself being more intimidating than its Imperial predecessor.

It's not a matter of who is better, it's that Star Wars, at least the prequel trilogy and sequel trilogy agrees that democracy isn't and can't be perfect. Free will means allowing people the free will to not help you do this and that as well.
How does any of that speak to rationalizing human slavery as comparable to arachnids who eat their unhealthy young?

For things that happen on Tatioone to be illegal, you need to have laws agreed upon by the majority and when the elected representative of the majority tells you another thing you shouldn't do right now, you are expected to listen. That's the price. Doesn't mean the Jedi or Leia should turn their backs on the whole restoring the rule of law to the galaxy rather then the Emperor's tyrannical Empire idea. But 10,000 Jedi who no one elected to start wars for them should not be deciding when this or that planet is going to be brought into the Republic against the Republic and that planet's population's will.

...

And as Luke says, that was the Jedi at the height of their power. Their headquarters, their starfighters, their resources were provided by the Republic and those 10000 jedi themselves were born in the Republic and were brought to Jedi as Qui-Gon describes because they have that legal presence within the Republic. There's no version of the Jedi where they have nothing to do with Republic, yet have grown to a size where they have any kind of ability to do anything to help enforce peace and justice on a galactic scale. In over a thousand generations that did never happened.
Does it count for nothing that the Senate was known to be rife with corruption?

For the sake of perspective, in the EU/Legends that was supposedly so much more deferent towards the Old Republic and Jedi Order than new canon, Dooku's disillusionment with them came as a partial result of discovering that strike orders from the Jedi Council he and 19 Jedi under his command carried out -- resulting in the deaths of 11 of those Jedi, as well as many innocent people -- were the manipulations of a corrupt Republic official using them for his own purposes. An official who went unpunished at that.

When another mission resulted in heavy Jedi losses, including the apparent death of Dooku's own former apprentice, he appealed to the Jedi Council to stop allowing their order's lives to be wasted on the political machinations of corrupt officials. He went ignored.

So is that broken, manipulated system -- broken in old canon, broken in new canon -- what should have been allowed to decide where and what qualified as legality-stamped justice? And if so, is legality-stamped justice all that should be enforced?

You don't have to answer this one. I know my own answer.

Rey was explicitly 'sold', and he pays people in food. What choices do those people have? Trade for Unkar's food, or walk into the desert and die of thirst? Rey has the option of stealing a starship, but not everyone knows how to do that. Finn walked in from the countryside, and was so desperately dehydrated in less than a day that he stole from that animal trough.
Rey was sold to an asshole, yes, but an asshole who at least didn't put a transmitter chip in her; who did let her live and work by herself; and who instructed his goons to make sure no one else bothered her. Maybe we were supposed to think "slave" there? I'm not sure that we were, but I guess it's implicit to some degree in the whole being sold thing.

At any rate, Jakku barely has any native populace to speak of, and Niima Outpost even less. As with most residents of the planet, people there typically chose the life of a scavenger, are trying to hide (from debts or bounties), or just wanted to get away from the rest of the galaxy to be left alone.

To more directly answer your question, though, Jakku is a pretty small planet: 6,400 km in diameter. If someone remaining on Jakku doesn't want to work with Plutt, there's a mining operation somewhere north of the settlement and an agricultural town about 400 kilometers away in a different direction.

There's also the village occupied by the Church of the Force -- though due to the opening scene of TFA, I can't in good conscience recommend it.

If they're not slaves, what's the actual difference?
The ability to leave, for a notable one.

Jakku shouldn't be nowhere. It's the scene of the final defeat of the Galactic Empire, it's 'nowhere' the same way El Alamein or Midway Atoll are. The NR should be paying attention to it, for historical reasons if nothing else. Leia has heard of it, and has to know something about it if she's sending Poe there.
I don't know what to tell you. It's nowhere. Rey describes it as such and Luke agrees. Another resident described it as a place people end up, not come from, like a waste receptacle for space. Another described it as "the farthest-flung nowhere rock I could find on a star map."

It is also described as the last stop out of fully charted space for former Imperials heading into the Unknown Regions.

So? Back in the Galactic Empire days she was flying mercy missions against the will of the rulership, why should she let politics stop her now?
Doesn't she need ships and funding to wage battles?

If they're afraid the Jedi could come for them next, they could easily do a few as a 'don't even think about it', and Tattooine is only one of the many Hutt worlds.
Calling attention to themselves and outright challenging the Jedi hardly seems like a good plan when their strategy up to that point had been based in courting the Republic's favor with war funding and counting on their "lesser crimes" being overlooked.

The Hutts knew they had no chance against the Jedi. There's a reason they were desperate, even in the midst of the Republic already being at war, to prevent them from learning the full extent of the Hutt Council's criminal activities in the TCW episodes "Evil Plans," "Hostage Crisis," and "Hunt for Ziro" -- activities that came to include an association with Darth Maul of all people.

If the Jedi decide to conquer Tattooine, and put someone in place as the head, no one will actually believe he/she has any power, because it's wholly beholden to the Jedi. If he does something the Jedi don't like, they'll just depose them and put in someone else. And if the Jedi ever leave, the new ruler won't have the power to maintain himself, and the regime will fall.
This makes it sound like it isn't possible for anything but colonies to exist.

It's very firmly established that they're not equivalent to an army, and can't fight wars alone. Part of that peace would have been discussions, dispute resolution, bodyguarding people, rescuing prisoners, protecting people from bandits, etc.
And what did they do when discussions didn't work? More to the point, when discussions did work, why did they work? If the Republic had no arm capable of applying force (perhaps sometimes with a capital "F"), why cooperate with them? Or fear them, as with the Hutts?

They're very firm on the idea that the Jedi are not enough in a large scale conflict, and this assessment is proven correct over and over, as we see Jedi get overwhelmed without support.
I hope this is in reference to more than Order 66, when they were ambushed by their own troops on the battlefield.

The comparisons to the PT keep happening because I brought up my disappointment towards the at best absence and at worst outright disdain (the Jar Jar joke) towards it in the ST's production, and you felt the themes were being paid off, and we're in dispute over that.
That doesn't really explain or excuse all the "[blank] did it too" stuff. That's how politicians in Congress defend behavioral failures, not how one makes the case for virtue.

I could still be proven wrong, but so far, if they try to address the failures of the previous generation, it will look something like this.

Rey: You all were so blind, letting yourselves be distracted by Palpatine's Separatist sock puppet and not seeing the true threat he posed.

Palpatine: Hello there. Since you were distracted by my First Order sock puppet, you didn't see the true threat I posed. Actually, it was much easier this time.
I would hope plainly bad dialogue would bother you more than all else in such a ludicrous scenario.

That aside, why would such a thing even find its way into the diegetic rather than the structure of the narrative? Who would Rey even be speaking to? How would Rey know all this? Why would she be setting up herself or others in the present in contrast this way?

Okay I'll rephrase. We are faced with similar situations in the ST and PT, where slavery exists in certain spots in the galaxy, and those in authority have done little to stop it. For the Jedi, you're inclined to assume that their inaction is based on 'indifference' and 'myopia', but for Leia and the Resistance, you're willing to assume inability is the reason for it. We need some reason for making one assumption over the other in those cases.
Hearing what they've had to say (and not say) about the subject goes a long way towards arriving at an assessment of reasons ... especially when reasons are literally stated.

So then those are not assumptions at all.

Lots of people have been feeling that the Resistance bombers in TLJ are worthless and too easy to explode to ever be effective in combat. If you go back and look at the scene, though, they actually just got really unlucky, the TIE fighter happened to crash into the bomber bay in the brief moment between when the bombs were armed and when they were launched. The million to one shot went against the rebels for once, which is a quite cool touch actually. Lots of people continue to feel those bombers are worthless, but that doesn't make it correct.
I wasn't making an appeal to numbers, majority or otherwise. I was pointing out that there have been those of us calling the Jedi Order on their crap since long, long before a new EU or Sequel Trilogy existed to brainwash us -- or whatever is being claimed with this "look worse by comparison" fixation.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#96
More precisely, do you mean we see what he does while acting on his emotions after growing up in an emotionally unnatural and unhealthy environment in which he was -- by the most generous and least damaging interpretation -- encouraged to hide his emotions, inevitably leading to them becoming isolated in a single fixation?

If so, I agree. But that's really the only somewhat kind way we can describe it.

Maybe things would still have happened similarly under other conditions, but we can see how they not-maybe-definitely went this way, and identify how these conditions actually contributed to the outcome.

It's also plenty interesting where these three great Dark Side Force-wielders began their studies, isn't it? :awesome:

To be clear, I'm not at all suggesting that beginning as a Jedi means you're going to become a Dark Side menace, because that's obviously not true. I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying that the Jedi path didn't offer Dooku or Anakin any constructive way to deal with either a sense of societal injustice or isolation and personal loss. Their way was inadequate for addressing these feelings.

Luke's misstep with Ben should probably be categorized as a different matter from these, but I had to take the opportunity to make that dig above. :monster:
Many thousands of Jedi grew up in the environment you describe, only the one that came to it having lived with his mother for years decided that there's real merit in slaughtering children.

The Palpatines are a family on Naboo, Sheev has the most normal and priviliged upbringing of any force user we know, look how great he turned out. Darth Maul and Savage Oppress have a mother that protects and cares for them, as they look out for each other. Look how their familial bonds kept them on the right side of the track.

Luke and Obi-Wan are really the examples you want to follow, but there have been a thousand times more Jedi that followed Obi-Wan's path then people that picked up the force as adults and followed Luke's path.

That's why I said it's too semantic for us to arrive at an unqualified conclusion. To some people, the notion that a 30-year-gap is only a lull in the fighting of the same war would be absurd, particularly when one party openly slunk into the shadows to rebuild. Even your own wording (i.e. about whether the war was ended successfully) speaks to the sort of unavoidable qualifying inherent in describing the matter.

To my own mind, it's more simple to refer to the periods of conflict depicted in the Skywalker Saga as the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil War, and ... the Reylo Wars maybe?
You can divide them up in different periods, but it's really more the Palpatine Saga given that it is the conflict with him that began in Episode I that it is clear now we are primarily following, not the story of the Skywalker clan.

I mean, has it been established that Palpatine told anyone to build Starkiller Base or to wait 30 years or any of the rest of what happened after the Contingency went into effect? My understanding is that the First Order developed the Starkiller weapon as a show of itself being more intimidating than its Imperial predecessor.
Not sure, but the new evidence that it is Ilum comes from Jedi: Fallen Order, the screenshots I've seen suggest it was already in construction before the first Death Star blew up. Dosn't mean that the Death Star was as unimportant as you see Maul being, but Palpatine definitely accounted for that ace in the hole when he left orders for Hux' dad & co to enact Operation: Cinder.

How does any of that speak to rationalizing human slavery as comparable to arachnids who eat their unhealthy young?
It doesn't. I'm just saying Qui-Gon is right to feel it takes more then kickass lightsabers and the awesome ability to dominate the will of others to enact the change Tatioone needs, they need relief centres, new supply routes, infrastructure, other boring Republic stuff.

Does it count for nothing that the Senate was known to be rife with corruption?

For the sake of perspective, in the EU/Legends that was supposedly so much more deferent towards the Old Republic and Jedi Order than new canon, Dooku's disillusionment with them came as a partial result of discovering that strike orders from the Jedi Council he and 19 Jedi under his command carried out -- resulting in the deaths of 11 of those Jedi, as well as many innocent people -- were the manipulations of a corrupt Republic official using them for his own purposes. An official who went unpunished at that.

When another mission resulted in heavy Jedi losses, including the apparent death of Dooku's own former apprentice, he appealed to the Jedi Council to stop allowing their order's lives to be wasted on the political machinations of corrupt officials. He went ignored.

So is that broken, manipulated system -- broken in old canon, broken in new canon -- what should have been allowed to decide where and what qualified as legality-stamped justice? And if so, is legality-stamped justice all that should be enforced?

You don't have to answer this one. I know my own answer.
Is it the same as Dooku's? Just let the Sith rule the galaxy as again like before the Jedi and Senate came along? Cause logically that's where it ends. The Sith have moved in the shadows for a thousand years until such time as the guy that whispers in the Chancellors ear to stop him from helping Naboo is the same guy that doesn't react with one iota of surprise when Master Yoda and Emperor throw down with awesome forcepowers. It took corrupting the Senate slowly over centuries from within because the alternative, just waltzing and taking over was not an option for them anymore.

But without the Jedi being part of the Republic a kid born in the Republic isn't gonna be brought to the Jedi to be trained in the ways of the force, no Windu, no Qui-Gon, no Dooku, no Obi-Wan. And a guy like Palpatine can act in the open his entire life while probably never having to deal with a Jedi once. Why would he?
 
#97
The interesting thing about those three Darksiders, Dooku, Anakin, and Ben Solo, that gets left out so often is that none of them fell on their own, they were all groomed for years by powerful master manipulators. If anything, that's an endorsement of how difficult the Jedi are to manipulate. these brilliant schemers had to sink years into turning their apprentices, whereas in their daily lives they manipulate all kinds of other people as a matter of course. Over the course of one conversation Palpy was able to get Padme to vote out of office her strongest political supporter, these people manipulate entire nations, and the Jedi are consistently their greatest obstacle, the thing they have to destroy because they can't make it submit. Not only that, they need incredibly traumatic circumstances to crank up the pressure before Anakin snaps.


Yes, that Dooku happened in the old canon, but the new version is orders of magnitude more stupid. The vision of a solar storm that the Jedi Council rules not to tell anyone about, which flies in the face of their movie characterisations. When Qui Gon shows up with an objectively completely nuts story about having met Jesus working in a used car parts shop and being personally attacked by a Viking, the Council's reaction is ' that's very disturbing, we will devote all our resources to uncovering this mystery.' These are not the kind of people that go 'eh, it's probably fine.'

If you're a person that is bought and sold like property, then you're a slave, especially if you're doing unpaid labour to benefit someone else. Walking 400K through the desert ain't really a viable option. Rey has a Speeder because she has the skills to build it herself from scratch, most of the others won't have that option.

I don't know what to tell you. It's nowhere. Rey describes it as such and Luke agrees. Another resident described it as a place people end up, not come from, like a waste receptacle for space. Another described it as "the farthest-flung nowhere rock I could find on a star map."
Sure. Midway is 26 square miles in the middle of nowhere, you can't even grow food there, but the US Government still has a presence there. It's not somewhere Leia's never heard of or knows nothing about.

Doesn't she need ships and funding to wage battles?
So do the Jedi. Take away their Republic resources, and what do they have?They always seem to use Republic ships in their business dealings.

Calling attention to themselves and outright challenging the Jedi hardly seems like a good plan when their strategy up to that point had been based in courting the Republic's favor with war funding and counting on their "lesser crimes" being overlooked.

The Hutts knew they had no chance against the Jedi. There's a reason they were desperate, even in the midst of the Republic already being at war, to prevent them from learning the full extent of the Hutt Council's criminal activities in the TCW episodes "Evil Plans," "Hostage Crisis," and "Hunt for Ziro" -- activities that came to include an association with Darth Maul of all people.
They don't want details of their secret meetings in the hands of a foreign government, because they include things like '50,000 credits bribe to the Bothan Senator to vote through podracing TV rights to our shell company'. They don't fear the repercussions of things like Bane bombing the Senate, and when the Jedi need his help, they come asking, not demanding. They don't come across as afraid.

This makes it sound like it isn't possible for anything but colonies to exist.
Exactly the reverse. Colonies collapse when their conquerors do, independent states don't. The USSR's satellite states collapsed when the Moscow Government did, because they were puppets relying on Moscow power to exist. You need a local ruler, who can actually stay in power by themselves, not someone that only stays in place because they have Jedi power to call on.

And what did they do when discussions didn't work? More to the point, when discussions did work, why did they work? If the Republic had no arm capable of applying force (perhaps sometimes with a capital "F"), why cooperate with them? Or fear them, as with the Hutts?
Sure. but not alone. We see them face droid armies and lose and need rescue by Clones extremely regularly, and it's stated over and over again that they cannot fight a war alone.A lot of their weight as diplomats likely comes from the widespread belief that they will be fair and honest and disinterested, and when they need support, they use local law enforcement as support.

That doesn't really explain or excuse all the "[blank] did it too" stuff. That's how politicians in Congress defend behavioral failures, not how one makes the case for virtue.
It's not the case for virtue I'm making, it's questioning the idea that the thematic payoff in 9 will be this grand correction of the mistakes in the previous movies, when nobody has actually improved. Rey and Finn both start out as slaves, but never demonstrate any particular inclination to free their fellow junkers/stormtroopers from their servitude, at least so far. That is a really strange choice if the thematic weight of the story is supposed to be 'unlike these other people, these ones care about freeing slaves'

I would hope plainly bad dialogue would bother you more than all else in such a ludicrous scenario.
That was supposed to be an illustration of the thematic conflict in the story, not literal dialogue. I suppose I could have written a three page scene, but there's a limit to the length of digressions even for me.

Hearing what they've had to say (and not say) about the subject goes a long way towards arriving at an assessment of reasons ... especially when reasons are literally stated.
Master and Apprentice again?

I wasn't making an appeal to numbers, majority or otherwise. I was pointing out that there have been those of us calling the Jedi Order on their crap since long, long before a new EU or Sequel Trilogy existed to brainwash us -- or whatever is being claimed with this "look worse by comparison" fixation.
Well, yes. Fandom interpretations are inevitable, much like shipping wars. But the validation of the viewpoint in canon is mostly more recent, and the fact that they have to go against the existing characterisations to achieve this is telling about the original intent. Subversions and developing the canon happen, of course, but the mean spirited way they're going about it bugs me.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#98
Many thousands of Jedi grew up in the environment you describe, only the one that came to it having lived with his mother for years decided that there's real merit in slaughtering children.
To be fair, Anakin wasn't the first Jedi to go Sith or do outright evil -- but yes, dude was an exception to a great many things.

Still, the point about his upbringing remains. Not (even nearly) all abused folks will become abusers themselves, but abusers tend to have been abused. There's something to be said for unhealthy environments contributing to unhealthy development, even if not everyone who grows up in an unhealthy environment becomes outwardly destructive.

The Palpatines are a family on Naboo, Sheev has the most normal and priviliged upbringing of any force user we know, look how great he turned out. Darth Maul and Savage Oppress have a mother that protects and cares for them, as they look out for each other. Look how their familial bonds kept them on the right side of the track.
Maul isn't really a good example, though. His mother was leader of the Nightsisters and wanted to be a Sith herself until Sidious's betrayal made her want to destroy them instead and rule in their place.

Also, Sheev took Maul when he was still a child anyway.

Luke and Obi-Wan are really the examples you want to follow, but there have been a thousand times more Jedi that followed Obi-Wan's path then people that picked up the force as adults and followed Luke's path.
In fairness, that's also at least partially because Force-sensitive folks usually weren't trained as Jedi if they were already beyond a certain stage of development. For at least one thousand years, that's how it was done.

Luke, Leia, and Rey are some of the only adult-ish people to have received training at such a late stage.

You can divide them up in different periods, but it's really more the Palpatine Saga given that it is the conflict with him that began in Episode I that it is clear now we are primarily following, not the story of the Skywalker clan.
That's true. Little wonder why he ended up with the most names and titles with which to refer to him of anyone in the mythos. :monster:

On a related note, all those Star Destroyers we can see in the latest trailers make me wonder: If Palpatine really did arrange all of this, then was the First Order unknowingly just a distraction all this time? Has there been a True Empire rebuilding and preparing itself deep in the Unknown Regions even as the First Order believed it was doing the same?

Not sure, but the new evidence that it is Ilum comes from Jedi: Fallen Order, the screenshots I've seen suggest it was already in construction before the first Death Star blew up. Dosn't mean that the Death Star was as unimportant as you see Maul being, but Palpatine definitely accounted for that ace in the hole when he left orders for Hux' dad & co to enact Operation: Cinder.
Well, both Ilum and Starkiller Base have been described as former sites of Imperial surface mining. What we see of Ilum in "Fallen Order" really only points to the mining scars iconic of Starkiller, but those scars don't necessarily entail construction of the weapon apparatus was already under way at that time.

Is it the same as Dooku's?
Opening fire on civilians fleeing a battlefield? Nope.

Just let the Sith rule the galaxy as again like before the Jedi and Senate came along? Cause logically that's where it ends.
We remember the liberation of Kashyyyk very differently. :monster:

But without the Jedi being part of the Republic a kid born in the Republic isn't gonna be brought to the Jedi to be trained in the ways of the force, no Windu, no Qui-Gon, no Dooku, no Obi-Wan. And a guy like Palpatine can act in the open his entire life while probably never having to deal with a Jedi once. Why would he?
Sith were being confronted by Jedi before they neutered themselves into becoming Senate lapdogs, though.

The interesting thing about those three Darksiders, Dooku, Anakin, and Ben Solo, that gets left out so often is that none of them fell on their own, they were all groomed for years by powerful master manipulators. If anything, that's an endorsement of how difficult the Jedi are to manipulate. these brilliant schemers had to sink years into turning their apprentices, whereas in their daily lives they manipulate all kinds of other people as a matter of course. Over the course of one conversation Palpy was able to get Padme to vote out of office her strongest political supporter, these people manipulate entire nations, and the Jedi are consistently their greatest obstacle, the thing they have to destroy because they can't make it submit. Not only that, they need incredibly traumatic circumstances to crank up the pressure before Anakin snaps.
I imagine that most anyone is difficult to manipulate into inverting their moral compass, though. Those are the kind of manipulations that we see take years, right?

Yes, that Dooku happened in the old canon, but the new version is orders of magnitude more stupid. The vision of a solar storm that the Jedi Council rules not to tell anyone about, which flies in the face of their movie characterisations. When Qui Gon shows up with an objectively completely nuts story about having met Jesus working in a used car parts shop and being personally attacked by a Viking, the Council's reaction is ' that's very disturbing, we will devote all our resources to uncovering this mystery.' These are not the kind of people that go 'eh, it's probably fine.'
But Yoda's movie characterization going back to ESB is that of the kind of person who says "Let your friends be tortured to death, Luke, even though you might be able to save them." :monster:

Walking 400K through the desert ain't really a viable option. Rey has a Speeder because she has the skills to build it herself from scratch, most of the others won't have that option.
Obviously walking a few hundred miles isn't ideal, no, but there are beasts of burden on Jakku (happabores and luggabeasts), and even though Jakku is no booming hub, there is consistent enough travel on the planet to have frequented routes that pass enough for roads to be called such (by Rey in "Rey's Survival Guide").

And there is still even consistent enough travel to the planet for the TFA Visual Dictionary to comment that "the planet has become a treasure trove for prospectors and scavengers of wildly varying means and fortunes" while "interstellar travelers looking to find riches or lose pursuers keep a steady trickle of traffic coming to and from the [Niima] outpost" with "most travelers opt[ing] to sleep on their starships."

And enough travel for Rey to make these observations in her Survival Guide:

"The folks I wonder about most in Niima are the visitors. Some of them are traders doing business with Unkar—he doesn’t have a reliable starship these days, so his customers mostly come to him. Others are prospectors making a last stop before heading off into the Unknown Regions. But every now and then I see people in Niima who shouldn’t be here—families standing at the bottom of starship ramps, peering out in disbelief at the bazaar and the endless sand. They’re the ones I worry about and try to watch out for. Is that how I got here—because someone just passing through made a terrible mistake? I have to stay, but they don’t. So it’s always a relief to see those strange ships lift off again."

All of which goes a long way towards saying: if someone wants to move from the outpost to one of the other settlements, there are opportunities to do so. It may be some degree of hardship, as when anyone who isn't wealthy needs to move (I should know), but again, if that in itself amounts to slavery, most folks are slaves.

Once again might as well be asking why Leia didn't just put an end to poverty.

Sure. Midway is 26 square miles in the middle of nowhere, you can't even grow food there, but the US Government still has a presence there.
I mean, it's a couple handfuls of people from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service agency, but sure.

It's not somewhere Leia's never heard of or knows nothing about.
Neither is Tatooine, though?

And for that matter, when Leia told Poe she was sending him there, he still asked for confirmation three times and commented "There's nothing there but old rusted-out starships."

And for that matter, I've heard of Midway, but it's still 26 sq. miles of nothing located in the middle of nowhere. =P

So do the Jedi. Take away their Republic resources, and what do they have?They always seem to use Republic ships in their business dealings.
At this point, though, that's kind of like pointing out that Donald Trump is only ever seen in vehicles owned by the federal government.

They don't want details of their secret meetings in the hands of a foreign government, because they include things like '50,000 credits bribe to the Bothan Senator to vote through podracing TV rights to our shell company'. They don't fear the repercussions of things like Bane bombing the Senate, and when the Jedi need his help, they come asking, not demanding. They don't come across as afraid.
I don't buy that. For the sake of keeping this information out of Senate hands and avoiding getting the Jedi set on them, they risked implicating themselves in their hired gun holding almost a dozen senators hostage; murdering one of them; attempting to blow up the rest; and killing a couple dozen or more Senate guards.

This is a lot worse than something like withholding on their tax filings, so it stands to reason the information they were trying to keep secret was as well.

Exactly the reverse. Colonies collapse when their conquerors do, independent states don't. The USSR's satellite states collapsed when the Moscow Government did, because they were puppets relying on Moscow power to exist. You need a local ruler, who can actually stay in power by themselves, not someone that only stays in place because they have Jedi power to call on.
However, sometimes no alternative local structure to the status quo can get established to begin with without outside help. That's the issue on the table.

Sure. but not alone. We see them face droid armies and lose and need rescue by Clones extremely regularly, and it's stated over and over again that they cannot fight a war alone. A lot of their weight as diplomats likely comes from the widespread belief that they will be fair and honest and disinterested, and when they need support, they use local law enforcement as support.
That's entirely possible at times, sure.

It's not the case for virtue I'm making, it's questioning the idea that the thematic payoff in 9 will be this grand correction of the mistakes in the previous movies, when nobody has actually improved. Rey and Finn both start out as slaves, but never demonstrate any particular inclination to free their fellow junkers/stormtroopers from their servitude, at least so far. That is a really strange choice if the thematic weight of the story is supposed to be 'unlike these other people, these ones care about freeing slaves'
Well, all I can say is that Anakin's dream/promise has overtly not been forgotten, and there are seeds in place that would very fittingly lend to its fulfillment.

Master and Apprentice again?
As well as "Aftermath: Empire's End." Between the two, we get to hear opposing statements of intent between, say, Yoda and Leia.

Subversions and developing the canon happen, of course, but the mean spirited way they're going about it bugs me.
To be altogether honest, this assessment of mean-spiritedness comes across absurdly overblown to me. Abrams makes one joke about offing the most annoying character in the entire franchise's history, and we're supposedly sitting on top of a conspiracy to villainize the whole Prequel Trilogy ... which doesn't even hold up with Jar Jar anyway given the sympathetic depiction he receives in "Aftermath: Empire's End." To say nothing of other PT acknowledgments and cameos, such as the implication in TFA that Clonetroopers are more effective than Stormtroopers (they really are), and Bail Organa's appearance in "Rogue One."

No, overshadowing all of that is a few podracing flags maybe 12 people noticed to begin with that weren't present for the final release of TFA ... despite being present in its marketing. The marketing, of course, being the crucial interaction with audiences where one should anticipate removal of such things for enmity's sake were it in play.

But no, this definitely means that the PT is getting a big ol' bantha crap taken all over it. Never mind that the flag with poor Ziro the Hutt's tattoo also got removed -- this is definitely about hate for TPM, AotC, and RotS.
 
#99
Sorry, got distracted by X-com.

To be fair, Anakin wasn't the first Jedi to go Sith or do outright evil -- but yes, dude was an exception to a great many things.

Still, the point about his upbringing remains. Not (even nearly) all abused folks will become abusers themselves, but abusers tend to have been abused. There's something to be said for unhealthy environments contributing to unhealthy development, even if not everyone who grows up in an unhealthy environment becomes outwardly destructive.
What we have, though, is the Jedi having a lower rate of unhealthy development than everyone else, by all accounts. Anakin, Dooku, and even Ben had to be specifically targeted by someone outside the Order for them to fall, if it was something inherent to the environment, this would not need to happen. We don't hear of anyone within the Order going dark absent external stresses., and they have to be extreme ones at that.

A few more Jedi crack during the war, but war is incredibly stressful in general, plenty of people with normal attachments and environments
crack during the strain of combat, (even a few of the Clones). Quinlan, Bariss, and Krell are by far the exception rather than the rule. What we have is Jedi being significantly more balanced than the general population, not the reverse.

But Yoda's movie characterization going back to ESB is that of the kind of person who says "Let your friends be tortured to death, Luke, even though you might be able to save them." :monster:
It's more 'do not be baited into obvious trap'. They know he's no match for Vader, correctly, and think he could do an Anakin. As it happens, they're correct-Luke does nothing to save his friends, and they have to end up helping him.

Obviously walking a few hundred miles isn't ideal, no, but there are beasts of burden on Jakku (happabores and luggabeasts), and even though Jakku is no booming hub, there is consistent enough travel on the planet to have frequented routes that pass enough for roads to be called such (by Rey in "Rey's Survival Guide").
Beasts of burden ain't wind up toys, they're owned by people, and said people don't just hand them out to strangers. Steal one? Do you know how to make it go where you want it to go? Do you know what supplies you need to keep it alive?Steal those too? Can the beast of burden carry the supplies as well as you? Can you get out of town without someone noticing 'hey, that pack animal doesn't belong to her'?

The starships are owned by people who stay in them , and travelers offworld will have to pay passage. Oh, you can't pay passage because you're only paid in food? That't too bad.

It's not simple poverty when you are bought and sold, and paid in food. That's called slavery.

At this point, though, that's kind of like pointing out that Donald Trump is only ever seen in vehicles owned by the federal government.
Um, how? If the Jedi unilaterally declare war on Tattooine, the Republic says 'um, no.' and the Jedi have to go to Tattooine on starfighters. Which means they can't bring any supplies, (example: water) which becomes a problem if the battles last longer than a day. Also a problem in preventing the slaves from dying of thirst when trade stops due to the war.

I don't buy that. For the sake of keeping this information out of Senate hands and avoiding getting the Jedi set on them, they risked implicating themselves in their hired gun holding almost a dozen senators hostage; murdering one of them; attempting to blow up the rest; and killing a couple dozen or more Senate guards.

This is a lot worse than something like withholding on their tax filings, so it stands to reason the information they were trying to keep secret was as well.
They'd never dare to do things like bombing the Senate if they were really scared of the Republic. The premise of the movie is that Jabba must be tricked/persuaded into helping either side of the war, because they can't force him.

However, sometimes no alternative local structure to the status quo can get established to begin with without outside help. That's the issue on the table.
Yes, but there's an important difference between. 'we're going to conquer you, and put this person in charge' and 'this leader person called us in, we'll help him, but not conquer you'. That's very important if you want your change to last.

Well, all I can say is that Anakin's dream/promise has overtly not been forgotten, and there are seeds in place that would very fittingly lend to its fulfillment.
We shall see.

As well as "Aftermath: Empire's End." Between the two, we get to hear opposing statements of intent between, say, Yoda and Leia.
Ah, the supplementary material twenty years later. Truly the most authoritative source.

To be altogether honest, this assessment of mean-spiritedness comes across absurdly overblown to me. Abrams makes one joke about offing the most annoying character in the entire franchise's history, and we're supposedly sitting on top of a conspiracy to villainize the whole Prequel Trilogy ... which doesn't even hold up with Jar Jar anyway given the sympathetic depiction he receives in "Aftermath: Empire's End." To say nothing of other PT acknowledgments and cameos, such as the implication in TFA that Clonetroopers are more effective than Stormtroopers (they really are), and Bail Organa's appearance in "Rogue One."

No, overshadowing all of that is a few podracing flags maybe 12 people noticed to begin with that weren't present for the final release of TFA ... despite being present in its marketing. The marketing, of course, being the crucial interaction with audiences where one should anticipate removal of such things for enmity's sake were it in play.

But no, this definitely means that the PT is getting a big ol' bantha crap taken all over it. Never mind that the flag with poor Ziro the Hutt's tattoo also got removed -- this is definitely about hate for TPM, AotC, and RotS.
Jar Jar received such a torrent of abuse after TPM that Ahmed seriously considered throwing himself off a bridge. I don't expect JJ to know that specifically, but he must have known about how poisonous prequel hatred was, because it was a massive cultural phenomenon that couldn't exactly be missed.

Adding to that? Not his best moment, although to be fair maybe he wasn't expecting that to get reported.

The podracing flag is significant because JJ is on record that he took it out because it was a prequel reference. Given how many completely random OT references show up in the background of scenes, there's no possible excuse for doing that other than PT hate. There are more.

TROS is being marketed as the culmination of the previous six films, but they're very visibly minimising marketing of the PT, such as that featurette which has OT, ST, and three seconds of Ewan spinning a lightsabre.

Look how far you have to reach for those references. One line in TFA, specifying that FO stormtroopers are not clones. The existence of Bail Organa. Against trench runs, virtually all recycled ship designs, a literal return to the throne room of the Death Star. The chess game aboard the Falcon. And so on.

Hey, maybe I'm wrong. I certainly hope so.
 
AKA
The Engineer
Anakin, Dooku, and even Ben had to be specifically targeted by someone outside the Order for them to fall, if it was something inherent to the environment, this would not need to happen.
Not exactly... Falling to the Dark Side, sure. That happens because Palpatine is specifically looking for Jedi who aren't fully on board with how the Jedi Order works. But leaving the Jedi Order though? No... As far as I can tell, that happens without any outside influence. At least in the case of Anakin and Dooko.

Anakin shows signs of wanting to leave the Order all the way back in Attack of the Clones, and Padme interacts more with Papatine then Anakin does in that movie! Heck, Padme is probably a better person to blame for Anakin leaving the Jedi Order then Palpatine is for that matter. Dooku has a similar thing where he finds out he's got a family and title he could have had if he hadn't been given up to the Jedi Order as a kid. And so he gives up the Jedi Order to go find them.

Ben Solo is a lot more up in the air for me then Anakin and Dooku are since I'm not as caught up on the non-movie materials of the ST. However... from what I remember from The Last Jedi movie, an outside influence had very little to do with it. Luke getting nervous over Ben's power and attitude and over-reacting seemed to have a lot more to do with why Ben left. Kinda hard to want to stay somewhere when your uncle pulls a lightsaber out of nowhere on you.
TROS is being marketed as the culmination of the previous six films, but they're very visibly minimising marketing of the PT, such as that featurette which has OT, ST, and three seconds of Ewan spinning a lightsabre.
I am not surprised by this at all. In fact... I honestly think they should be minimizing the PT in marketing. The PT gets way more flack then the OT does in most fandom circles. Highlighting how the ST is like the PT would be a marketing distater because most people don't want to watch a Star Wars movie that reminds them of the style and tone of the PT. And so far... the ST has been more like the OT then the PT anyway. And even better, it feels distinct enough from the OT and PT that it has its own feel. Thank goodness.

I just know that if the ST was more like the PT, I would have written the series off at this point and decided it wasn't worth my time anymore. The entire point of the ST is showing that Star Wars isn't bogged down in all the old stuff, but is adding enough new material and characters to keep people interested in it.
 
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