Misc Star Wars Tangents

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#51
The killing Watto argument gave the impression Qui-Gon was at fault for not murdering Watto the nanosecond he demonstrated a relience to Jedi mind tricks,
Well, no. Perhaps I failed to be clear, but any suggestion like that was at least intended to be considered through a lens of when it would be sound tactically and time permitting.

Not from you, but this argument was nevertheless sparked by the claim that he lost his mother due to the Jedi rules. Even though his mother was freed from slavery years ago, and the same movie in which Shmi died demonstrated that Jedi can leave th order peacefully if they wish to do so.
Fair enough.

Their resources and power and authority to act with a certain discretion during wars or violent conflicts is owed to the Republic, which doesn't want them picking fights whenever and wherever they like.
Wasn't it this very willingness to be reduced to leashed attack dogs that put them in the position of wasting years on a puppet war, and facilitating Palpatine's rise as emperor? Perhaps there weren't comic books in the Old Republic to tell them that superheroes acting only as the government wills never turns out well. XD

Leia also had the power and resources to fix all the galaxy's problems. She's a powerful force-user and the only thing that stood in her way was a bunch of morally bankrupt senators that don't have the innate resistance to Jedi mind tricks that Watto and the Hutts enjoyed, yet here are, most of the galaxy's problems remain unsolved long after Force users are free from the Jedi's rules.
Maybe so.

It's the "before it was too late" part that annoys me. The Resistance was named such back when the First Order was a bunch of upstarts, outnumbered by those that are charged with defending their planets freedoms by a 100 to 1. Not only was the galaxy not on the First Order side, but they saw Leia, Luke, Han, Lando and Wedge as celebrated warheroes. Yet the movies needed Leia's force to have a scrappy underdog feel to it to tap into OT nostalgia, earned or not.
I can deal with the reality that moviemakers are terrified of looking like the prequels, so we'll never have more then 2 lightsabers on screen or the Republic Senate having meetings on deciding what to do. But actually naming this movement the Resistance long before the First Order had any hope of conquering even their first Republic planet without being curbstomped by it's vastly superior government organised military is a bridge too far for me.
I think I see what you're saying, and it's not without merit from a world design/plotting perspective. But with the circumstances of the setting being what they are, it strikes me as fitting that Leia would have picked the name at least in part because she couldn't get other officials to take the threat seriously enough.

Sort of to say, "There needs to be a resistance. Looks like it's us since it sure isn't you."

The Thet Jedi had some fairly specific things to say concerning the galaxy not being willing to answer their calls for help, and how the people in the fleet are the only ones left to oppose the First Order (and nearly all of those people would not survive the rest of the movie). Now, maybe Leia, Hondo and Poe will be branded as dramaqueens for their statements in Last Jedi but I don't expect that.
Poe kinda is, really, but that's neither here nor there. XD

I'll admit my displeasure with the trailer got the better of me.
Roger that.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#52
Wasn't it this very willingness to be reduced to leashed attack dogs that put them in the position of wasting years on a puppet war, and facilitating Palpatine's rise as emperor? Perhaps there weren't comic books in the Old Republic to tell them that superheroes acting only as the government wills never turns out well. XD
It was those leashed attacks dogs that were dispatched to represent the Republic in peacetalks for the Naboo conflict. Now Sidious saw them coming, and so the Trade Federation's decisionmakers never put themselves in the same room with these people that can influence them mentally. But there was near a thousand years before then that there was no Sidious to speak off and the Jedis helped the Republic bloodlessly maintain the peace,

They might have done more as lawless renegades but I argue it probably wasn't a complete waste.

I think I see what you're saying, and it's not without merit from a world design/plotting perspective. But with the circumstances of the setting being what they are, it strikes me as fitting that Leia would have picked the name at least in part because she couldn't get other officials to take the threat seriously enough.

Sort of to say, "There needs to be a resistance. Looks like it's us since it sure isn't you."
But we always knew that this was gonna be a trilogy. And the situation was gonna seem more dire then ever in the third installment. Making Leia's naming inevitably prophetic in nature.

So it's more like "I always had a feeling that lot was gonna die."
 
AKA
The Engineer
#53
Taking the portrayal of the Jedi in the Prequals as an example of what the Jedi were like for the bulk of their Order's existence has always rubbed me the wrong way. The Jedi Order in the Prequals is a dying order. The Sith have been pulling their strings and setting them up for failure for who knows how long and the Jedi don't even know it. Do I think they did a lot of good under the Republic? Yes. But I think they were doing good in spite of the Republic not because of it. Especially as they got closer and closer to the Clone Wars. Really, the entire situation with Anakin is a case study in how far from their ideals the Jedi have drifted. We really only see them at their worst in the movies, and I think that's a shame.

I think there's also an entire discussion to be had about how the Jedi Order (especially the Council) treated Anakin and exactly how "free to leave" the Jedi Order he thought he was. His relationship with the Council does not start off well in The Phantom Menace, and from the looks of things in Clones and Revenge, Anakin and the Council had very different ideas about what was important. To the point it's easy for Palpatine to convince Anakin the Council doesn't care about him as a person as opposed to being a figure-head or role in their prophecy.
 
#54
Primarily, the difference between legitimate balance in the Force rather than myopic wishful thinking, and the difference in legitimate peace and justice rather than out-of-sight-out-of-mind-ness.
Those are largely headcanons, though, assumptions drawn on what is presumed Jedi do or don't do offscreen. Naboo is supposed to be one of those 'out of sight, out of mind' places no one cares about. Palpatine is counting on that. But he's wrong, because both Republic and Jedi do care enough to try to resolve the dispute, and Palpatine has to scramble to keep his scheme from unravelling.

The thing about the Jedi is that they have limitations. They're not invincible, we hear that over and over again, 'we can't fight this war for you' 'we're peacekeepers, not soldiers' 'the jedi will not be enough'. In spite of all their skills, they can't defeat an army alone. They can't take over Tattooine singlehanded, they're straight up not capable of that. It's not indifference, it's just not being God.

I really hope the Jedi Order didn't spend so little time actually dealing with the subject that they had no ideas whatsoever about how to go about this effectively.
The Jedi Order were not on Tattooine. Qui Gon's decisions are on him, and we don't ever see him mention Schmi at all to the Jedi Order. Qui Gon comes off as pretty manipulative, can we be sure he mentioned her at all? They can tell Anakin misses her, but that could be mistaken for ordinary homesickness. Even Obi never met her and may not even know about her until close to Clones.

That they barely got themselves out; they were racing an unforgiving clock; and we've not seen what they do once they have a chance to think about those people again.
All of which applies in TPM.

I think it's more "Jedi indifference," "Jedi incompetence," or"Jedi myopia" people ascribe fault to.
Which are mostly headcanon, because they're not actually there. The only time they're indifferent or myopic are in the stories that are specifically written to make them so, for the purposes of calling them out on it, a la The Wrong Jedi. They're judged incompetent for things like not randomly jumping to the conclusion that Palpatine is the mastermind, or not watching the OT ahead of making their decisions about Anakin.

Honestly, across the PT, I don't know what they're supposed to do differently.

And how do those "more resistance" people learn of said disgusting methods? Via civilian collective telepathy -- or because someone(s) spread the word as a call to action?
They notice the missing people/smoke/wreckage. Or else oppressive regime announces what they've done to intimidate and it backfires.

In light of the "Master & Apprentice" book, Qui-Gon deserves less of the blame than Yoda or Jedi culture in general.
Why? He's the one that chose to leave Schmi behind, that cheated in a dice game specifically so he could free the slave he preferred at her expense. He's known to defy the Jedi Council when he feels it necessary, why was Schmi not important enough to do so for? Dooku was able to leave the Jedi on ideological grounds, why is Qui Gon getting a pass for not being willing to leave the Jedi order for the sake of freeing slaves?

It's super interesting that the faults of the Jedi have to be retconned into a book twenty years later for this to work, isn't it?

Is the United States' unwillingness to utilize its resources to police the world the way it should be indicative of there being no good people present here rather than perpetually poor leadership?
That's another rabbithole, we could fill libraries with it. I think it's more complicated than that, though.

Superheroes only acting with govt approval leads to Doc Manhattan. Superheroes ignoring the govt completely leads to the Justice Lords, though.

They might have done more as lawless renegades but I argue it probably wasn't a complete waste.
That seems rather unlikely to me, most likely, the Sith just have an easier time getting into power and start an anti Jedi pogrom.

I think there's also an entire discussion to be had about how the Jedi Order (especially the Council) treated Anakin and exactly how "free to leave" the Jedi Order he thought he was. His relationship with the Council does not start off well in The Phantom Menace, and from the looks of things in Clones and Revenge, Anakin and the Council had very different ideas about what was important. To the point it's easy for Palpatine to convince Anakin the Council doesn't care about him as a person as opposed to being a figure-head or role in their prophecy.
He knows he's free to leave. There's no stigma attached to leaving the Jedi Order. Dooku does, and the Council's attitude is 'okay, we hope we can still be friends'. They were fine with not training him the first place.

They treat Anakin very fairly overall, they just don't show favouritism (ie. not giving him a title he's not qualified for) and that's what gets to Anakin, because he believes he's more deserving than he is.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#55
They treat Anakin very fairly overall, they just don't show favouritism (ie. not giving him a title he's not qualified for) and that's what gets to Anakin, because he believes he's more deserving than he is.
Are you kidding? They make it pretty clear to him when he's a kid that he's very abnormal for a Jedi since he didn't grow up as one. They initially don't even want him in the Order because they think he's too old and has formed attachments outside the Order that will distract him from the role they think he has. Simply put, Anakin doesn't fit the mold of a Jedi as the Jedi see themselves and the Order never really has any idea how to deal with that. They just give him to Obi-Wan since Obi-Wan actually wants to train him.

Anakin is not like Dooko. Dooko found out he could have had a life outside the Jedi Order if the Jedid Order hadn't taken him in as a baby when they found out he had a high midi-chlorian count. And he went off to get that life back. Anakin literally has no one else outside the Order. There's no place he can go back to. Padme is off on Naboo and doesn't run into him until much later as an adult. As far as anyone else is concerned, Anakin is an ex-slave from the Outer Rim. Not exactly something I would want to be in Corosant with no knowledge of how the Republic works. So like it or not, the Jedi Order is really the only non-salve family/culture Anakin has ever known. Given that they're the ones who got him out of slavery in the first place, Anakin probably feels super indebted to them even if he disagrees with them on a lot of issues. And even with all that, Anakin is contemplating leaving the Order by the time Revenge of the Sith rolls around. Palpatine found that inconvenient though, so...

The issues I see Anakin having with the Jedi Order have nothing to do with Anakin thinking he should be their favorite. If anything, I'd say it has to do with them making the assumption that he is the Chosen One and then holding him to a higher standard then the other Jedi, and then the Jedi being disappointed when he doesn't meet their higher standard. And that kind of thing doesn't happen without whoever is being held to the higher standard feeling it. The Jedi are all expecting Anakin to do something, only when he starts doing abnormal things like seeing vision, (like seeing his mom dying), they don't want to take it seriously because that doesn't fit their idea of what the Chosen One will be like. In their mind, Anakin is supposed to Bring Balance to the Force, not call attention to how they've been hypocrites in the past.

Actually... I did a huge long post about this exact topic last year...
https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/star-wars-episode-7-8-and-beyond.12698/page-76#post-793524
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#56
Taking the portrayal of the Jedi in the Prequals as an example of what the Jedi were like for the bulk of their Order's existence has always rubbed me the wrong way. The Jedi Order in the Prequals is a dying order. The Sith have been pulling their strings and setting them up for failure for who knows how long and the Jedi don't even know it. Do I think they did a lot of good under the Republic? Yes. But I think they were doing good in spite of the Republic not because of it. Especially as they got closer and closer to the Clone Wars. Really, the entire situation with Anakin is a case study in how far from their ideals the Jedi have drifted. We really only see them at their worst in the movies, and I think that's a shame.

I think there's also an entire discussion to be had about how the Jedi Order (especially the Council) treated Anakin and exactly how "free to leave" the Jedi Order he thought he was. His relationship with the Council does not start off well in The Phantom Menace, and from the looks of things in Clones and Revenge, Anakin and the Council had very different ideas about what was important. To the point it's easy for Palpatine to convince Anakin the Council doesn't care about him as a person as opposed to being a figure-head or role in their prophecy.
Still, their ample resources are a result of their Republic support. Being completely outside of the Republic's rules and laws, or anyone's laws but also retain the infrastructure neccesary to provide care and relief to the slaves on Huttese worlds, or even orchestrate a mass exodus of it's populations to democratically run Republic worlds after destroying the slavers, I don't think that was ever in cards. Even at the height of their strength Jedi Knights are not so omnipotent that they don't have to pick their battles. Having a recognised place in the Republic gave them the authority operate as peacekeepers in like 80% of the galaxy, outside the Republic they have to improvise. Anakin's case is far from the first time Qui-Gon has got in trouble with the council, he's had to test the boundries of his authority a lot.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#57
Those are largely headcanons, though, assumptions drawn on what is presumed Jedi do or don't do offscreen.
You asked what I feel is being paid off. I'd like to think of it more as a legitimate analysis of what we've seen so far and where it's all heading than headcanon ... but I suppose it is technically that right now.

The Jedi Order were not on Tattooine. Qui Gon's decisions are on him, and we don't ever see him mention Schmi at all to the Jedi Order. Qui Gon comes off as pretty manipulative, can we be sure he mentioned her at all? They can tell Anakin misses her, but that could be mistaken for ordinary homesickness. Even Obi never met her and may not even know about her until close to Clones.
We now know Qui-Gon had been trying to get the Order to address slavery for years, but even before we knew that, that they wouldn't be in any particular hurry to do so was obvious due to his pronouncement that he hadn't come to Tattooine to free slaves -- and then it pretty much being left at that.

Also, are you proposing that the topic of "So, where you from?" never came up between Anakin and anyone else in a decade's time?

Me said:
That they barely got themselves out; they were racing an unforgiving clock; and we've not seen what they do once they have a chance to think about those people again.
You said:
All of which applies in TPM.
"We've not seen what they do once they have a chance to think about those people again" does not apply even a little to TPM. We saw what they did (or didn't) do over the following ten years; not so yet with TLJ.

Which are mostly headcanon, because they're not actually there. The only time they're indifferent or myopic are in the stories that are specifically written to make them so, for the purposes of calling them out on it, a la The Wrong Jedi.
Are they actually headcanon if they're in what you refer to as "the stories that are specifically written to make them [indifferent or myopic]"? That can't be had both ways.

They notice the missing people/smoke/wreckage. Or else oppressive regime announces what they've done to intimidate and it backfires.
So there are never survivors to talk about it? This is trying to have it both ways again.

Are there always rebels/resistancers at any given moment ... or can they in fact be reduced to zero/near-zero numbers? You can pick one.

Why? He's the one that chose to leave Schmi behind, that cheated in a dice game specifically so he could free the slave he preferred at her expense. He's known to defy the Jedi Council when he feels it necessary, why was Schmi not important enough to do so for? Dooku was able to leave the Jedi on ideological grounds, why is Qui Gon getting a pass for not being willing to leave the Jedi order for the sake of freeing slaves?
Who is giving him a pass? Why are you even raising this strawman?

There is an indictment being made here of the Jedi Order and the associated culture, all of which he was part -- and which he could have potentially influenced to greater positive effect a number of ways. The indictment of him personally is only less harsh because he wasn't calling the shots.

It's super interesting that the faults of the Jedi have to be retconned into a book twenty years later for this to work, isn't it?
We saw the whole failure-to-do-anything-about-the-slavery-we-know-exists in those movies a long time before the book, or even the sale to Disney. Likewise with the incompetent handling of Anakin.

The movies are as Lucas made them, and fans had been taking issue with the Jedi's blind eye-turning and non-attachment rules a long, long time ago.
 
#58
:Um...that is treating him fairly.

Anakin is fundamentally not suited to be in the Jedi Order. Qui Gon tries to sneak him in, because he believes he's the chosen one, and does a lot of underhanded stuff to make that happen (taking his blood without consent (via a lie), suddenly deciding Obi Wan is ready to face the trials, taking Anakin into a war zone so he can learn about the Force by watching Qui Gon fight.

Qui Gon lets Anakin know he's the Chosen One, which is a really bad thing to do, it piles on the pressure on the poor kid. Qui Gon is determined to train him as a Jedi, suitable or not, whether it ruins his life or not (as it goes on to do).

The Council sees this kid, and they decide rather than blindly accepting him, he'll get the standard entrance exam. They don't dismiss him or throw him out, they give him the test.

He aces the Force powers exam, but fails the psych. He's not feeling ordinary homesickness, he's afraid of what might happen to Schmi as she's left behind, which is not bad because emotions are bad, it's because it leaves you vulnerable to manipulation, as turns out to be the case. Anakin has poor control of his emotions. That is a dangerous thing for a Jedi to have, it leads to him massacring a Tusken tribe out of revenge and decapitating an unarmed prisoner, because he doesn't make good decisions in high stress situations. That's just who Anakin is, but if you're a Jedi, lives are very often at stake based on your emotional control. The Jedi Council, correctly, realises that Anakin is not a suitable candidate to be a Jedi. Ultimately it would have been better for everyone, including Anakin, if he was not trained. (Although Palpatine might have something to say about th

After Qui Gon's dying promise means that Anakin will be trained regardless, they decide to do the best they can with him. Again, the correct call.

They don't hold him to a higher standard than anyone else. They hold him to the same standard, but he doesn't meet it. Obi Wan, in high stress situations, makes good decisions.

Theoretically Anakin has nowhere to go, but one phonecall to Naboo fixes that.

Obi Wan: Hi Padme, do you think you could find Anakin a good home? You know, the boy that saved your entire world?

Admittedly that brings him up on Palpatine's radar, but they can't account for that.

No one is pushing Anakin to do anything. He doesn't like that they're not doing that, he wants more responsibility, but he's treated like everyone else.

It doesn't mean he's a bad person, it means he's not suited to be a Jedi.

It's not that the emotions are bad, it's that they make him vulnerable, because Jedi ing is a high stress job. If you have loved ones, bounty hunter X may try to take them hostage, but you still have to do the right thing.

Yes, that librarian believes in her archives. But to take that as the opinion of the Jedi, you have to ignore that Obi Wan doesn't just assume Dex is wrong and give up, he keeps investigating.

We now know Qui-Gon had been trying to get the Order to address slavery for years, but even before we knew that, that they wouldn't be in any particular hurry to do so was obvious due to his pronouncement that he hadn't come to Tattooine to free slaves -- and then pretty much leaving it at that.
He says he hasn't come to Tattooine to free slaves, because he hasn't come to Tattooine to free slaves, they're fleeing the TF. And?

Also, are you proposing that the topic of "So, where you from?" never came up between Anakin and anyone else in a decade's time?
It's very likely that he doesn't like to talk about it. I could see him being quiet on purpose, because he doesn't like to think about it. Obi Wan knows by Clones.

"We've not seen what they do once they have a chance to think about those people again" does not apply even a little to TPM. We saw what they did (or didn't) do over the following ten years.
We cut to ten years later, and we have no idea what they did or didn't do in the meantime. Maybe someone did, she did end up free after all.

Maybe someone tried and failed? Or found her free and happily married, or any number of other things. If Canto Bight isn't addressed in Episode 9, is your assumption going to be that those slaves were just left there to rot?

Are they actually headcanon if they're in what you refer to as "the stories that are specifically written to make them [indifferent or myopic]"? That can't be had both ways.
In a universe this vast, there are going to be outliers. Generally if one episode of a longrunning series has people involved significantly out of character, it's just disregarded in favour of the more 'canon' characterisation.

So there are never survivors to talk about it? This is trying to have it both ways again.
There can be survivors, but there doesn't necessarily need to be in order to inspire others to fight.

Qui Gon is absolutely calling the shots. He's the one on the ground on Tattooine, who has the opportunity to free Schmi but doesn't take it. But it's the Jedi's fault for his decision somehow. Even if they had a hard rule, if he cares so much, why not defy it?

We saw the whole failure-to-do-anything-about-the-slavery-we-know-exists in those movies a long time before the book, or even the sale to Disney. Likewise with the incompetent handling of Anakin.
We see Qui Gon do that. We don't see the Jedi do that. Obi Wan never left the ship, we never see their opinions or actions re slavery (except their history of bringing down that Egyptian cat slave empire back on TCW.)

The failures of the Jedi are based on very specific assumptions about what happens offscreen 'they know all about this, but do nothing' or misconceptions like 'the rule against attachment meant Anakin couldn't save Schmi', when it's really 'the Jedi haven't watched the OT in advance, and therefore don't know that that specific dream is a prophecy', or all this stuff about the unreasonable expectations they placed on him when every indication in the movies are the opposite, Anakin is upset that they don't give him special treatment.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#59
We know a Sith Lord was secretly the Chancellor of the Republic during those 10 years and had corrupted the Senate for quite some time before then. The Jedi's inability to go to war with the worlds the Hutts control I would suspect stems from this fact. At least in Qui-Gon's days anyway.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#60
He says he hasn't come to Tattooine to free slaves, because he hasn't come to Tattooine to free slaves, they're fleeing the TF. And?
"And then pretty much leaves it at that."

It's very likely that he doesn't like to talk about it. I could see him being quiet on purpose, because he doesn't like to think about it. Obi Wan knows by Clones.
The council gives him intense scrutiny, but doesn't bother to find out anything about him? That's not going to convince me they were more competent in these matters.

We cut to ten years later, and we have no idea what they did or didn't do in the meantime. Maybe someone did, she did end up free after all.
Lars purchased her. Slavery wasn't ended.

If Canto Bight isn't addressed in Episode 9, is your assumption going to be that those slaves were just left there to rot?
Yes?

In a universe this vast, there are going to be outliers. Generally if one episode of a longrunning series has people involved significantly out of character, it's just disregarded in favour of the more 'canon' characterisation.
Are you advocating for ignoring the PT? :awesome:

There can be survivors, but there doesn't necessarily need to be in order to inspire others to fight.
Honestly, it comes off like you're taking whatever position nullifies any potential relevance of Leia's organization at that point in the conversation. =\

So at one moment, "They've already done any inspiring they're going to do by destroying Starkiller," but at another "Resistance group exists. Authorities crack down brutally, decimate or destroy them. The populace is disgusted by the authorities methods, and more resistance happens as a result." To say nothing of the inconsistent assessment of whether a rebellion/resistance can actually be annihilated or exists in perpetuity post inception.

I know that's not your intention, but from this side of the table, that's how it comes off. This is becoming frustrating to discuss.

Qui Gon is absolutely calling the shots. He's the one on the ground on Tattooine, who has the opportunity to free Schmi but doesn't take it. But it's the Jedi's fault for his decision somehow. Even if they had a hard rule, if he cares so much, why not defy it?
Again, what's with this false dichotomy between Qui-Gon and the Jedi Order (along with its wider culture)? This is an indictment of them all.

The failures of the Jedi are based on very specific assumptions about what happens offscreen 'they know all about this, but do nothing' or misconceptions like 'the rule against attachment meant Anakin couldn't save Schmi', when it's really 'the Jedi haven't watched the OT in advance, and therefore don't know that that specific dream is a prophecy', or all this stuff about the unreasonable expectations they placed on him when every indication in the movies are the opposite, Anakin is upset that they don't give him special treatment.
By all means, continue reducing my postulations to things I've not put forth. =P
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#61
One thing I should acknowledge that I don't think I have is that, yes, the Resistance does very much feel different from the Rebellion in some difficult-to-articulate fashion. I think that's just an unavoidable consequence, though, of certain narrative decisions involving key characters also already being (or becoming) related to the Resistance in the key ways that they are: e.g. Leia being its founder and leader, Poe being who he is within the organization, Rey and Finn linking up with Han, Rey being the new Force user who trains with Luke, etc.
 
#62
Are you advocating for ignoring the PT? :awesome:
No, I'm advocating treating with caution works that engineer narratives that elevate one character by denigrating others, which I usually regard as bad writing. I feel like Master and Apprentice seems to have suddenly decided that Qui Gon had a specific stance on slavery that wasn't evidenced anywhere before, and the Jedi were also given a specific stance on slavery that wasn't evidenced before in order to make him look better by comparison, and that this was written to serve the needs of the specific book and not thought out with regard to consistency with the wider lore.

I'm told Karen Traviss did something similar in the 2000s with Mandalorians, but haven't read any of that so can't say for certain.

I regard this as a retcon that was put in twenty years later and not something endemic in the original characterisations of the PT. I think the ST itself so far does this a lot with regard to the failures of the Jedi, which is one of the reasons the lack of PT references and general air of derision towards them is so troubling.

Am I accurately assessing your stance if I say that the payoffs of the PT in the ST you're talking about are along the lines of 'they (PTcharacters) did it wrong, now it's up to us (ST characters) to do it properly?'


Your logic seems to be 'slavery exists on Tattooine in TPM. It still exists in Attack of the Clones, therefore the Jedi don't care about it or slavery in general.'

For me this is like saying 'homelessness exists. A nationwide anti homelessness charity has not completely eliminated it in a specific city in another country in a ten year span of operation, therefore said charity is worthless and doesn't really care about homelessness at all.'

I don't think that follows. But now we're just following the same tracks of the old discussion a year ago.

onestly, it comes off like you're taking whatever position nullifies any potential relevance of Leia's organization at that point in the conversation. =\

So at one moment, "They've already done any inspiring they're going to do by destroying Starkiller," but at another "Resistance group exists. Authorities crack down brutally, decimate or destroy them. The populace is disgusted by the authorities methods, and more resistance happens as a result." To say nothing of the inconsistent assessment of whether a rebellion/resistance can actually be annihilated or exists in perpetuity post inception.

I know that's not your intention, but from this side of the table, that's how it comes off. This is becoming frustrating to discuss.
What's the contradiction there?

The Resistance did achieve something useful by destroying Starkiller, but TLJ goes out of its way to downplay that (it has to, because if there was a response from the galaxy our lead characters would become less important.) It can also inspire people when a resistance group is squashed. But if Starkiller wasn't enough, then Crait is unlikely to make a difference.

So the idea that they're suddenly necessary to inspire the galaxy now rings completely hollow.

By all means, continue reducing my postulations to things I've not put forth. =P
Those examples were X and Obsidian, true, but I've done plenty of talking about Schmi and slavery, which I think runs to the same kind of thing. You did mention Jedi 'myopia', 'indifference', and 'incompetence', which I assumed was linked to their supposed ignoring of slavery. Were you intending something else?

Okay. Then if it's not addressed in 9, then Rose really does care more about the Fathiers than the slaves?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#63
No, I'm advocating treating with caution works that engineer narratives that elevate one character by denigrating others, which I usually regard as bad writing.
But what if I already walked away from the PT with a low opinion of the Jedi Order back in 2005?

I feel like Master and Apprentice seems to have suddenly decided that Qui Gon had a specific stance on slavery that wasn't evidenced anywhere before, and the Jedi were also given a specific stance on slavery that wasn't evidenced before in order to make him look better by comparison, and that this was written to serve the needs of the specific book and not thought out with regard to consistency with the wider lore.
It only makes him look better by comparison in the sense that he is elevated somewhat from where he was before. The rest of the order remain where they have been.

No denigrating is needed for the rest of them to look bad since, as I mentioned, they had been looking bad before even TCW came along.

I'm told Karen Traviss did something similar in the 2000s with Mandalorians, but haven't read any of that so can't say for certain.
I can't speak for any of that either, but I can say that Claudia Gray, the writer of "Master & Apprentice," has written several of what I consider to be easily among the better "Star Wars" novels.

I regard this as a retcon that was put in twenty years later and not something endemic in the original characterisations of the PT. I think the ST itself so far does this a lot with regard to the failures of the Jedi, which is one of the reasons the lack of PT references and general air of derision towards them is so troubling.
For a lot of us, it's only giving acknowledgement to how we've felt since seeing the PT. In all honesty, it was bizarre how little self-awareness there seemed to be with regard to it all before, as their world crashed and burned around them in RotS.

The closest to reflection we get on it is Yoda exiling himself because "Failed I have" -- but even that only sounds like he's talking about his fight with Palpatine.
Am I accurately assessing your stance if I say that the payoffs of the PT in the ST you're talking about are along the lines of 'they (PTcharacters) did it wrong, now it's up to us (ST characters) to do it properly?'
That would be one of the payoffs, yes.

Your logic seems to be 'slavery exists on Tattooine in TPM. It still exists in Attack of the Clones, therefore the Jedi don't care about it or slavery in general.'

For me this is like saying 'homelessness exists. A nationwide anti homelessness charity has not completely eliminated it in a specific city in another country in a ten year span of operation, therefore said charity is worthless and doesn't really care about homelessness at all.'

I don't think that follows. But now we're just following the same tracks of the old discussion a year ago.
I don't think it follows to analogize homelessness with slavery, or a presumably underfunded charity with the superhuman self-styled enforcers of galactic peace and justice ...

I mean, let's keep perspective. Homelessness and slavery are both societal ills, sure, but only one of these is actively, deliberately enforced upon one specific party by another specific party on an ongoing, everyday conscious basis.

But if Starkiller wasn't enough, then Crait is unlikely to make a difference.

So the idea that they're suddenly necessary to inspire the galaxy now rings completely hollow.
Circumstances do change, particularly when dealing with ever-expanding imperial conquest.

In any case, you're again showing subscription to a very specific interpretation of two lines that may -- if they even turn out to be more than marketing -- be part of a private conversation in which one character tries to encourage another with pretty platitudes.

Not that there's really anything wrong with "Be the change you want to see in the world"-style sentiments in the first place. I'm actually confused as to why we've had so much controversy over such a positive affirmation, but here we are.

Those examples were X and Obsidian, true, but I've done plenty of talking about Schmi and slavery, which I think runs to the same kind of thing.
It's you who keeps bringing up Shmi specifically while I'm talking about the slavery on Tattooine in general.

You did mention Jedi 'myopia', 'indifference', and 'incompetence', which I assumed was linked to their supposed ignoring of slavery. Were you intending something else?
Outer rim slavery is part of it, as is their view of the Force, their role in the galaxy, etc., most of which we've discussed before.

Okay. Then if it's not addressed in 9, then Rose really does care more about the Fathiers than the slaves?
Can't say I'd have thought to word it that particular way, but let's just go with yes. :monster:
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#64
In any case, you're again showing subscription to a very specific interpretation of two lines that may -- if they even turn out to be more than marketing -- be part of a private conversation in which one character tries to encourage another with pretty platitudes.

Not that there's really anything wrong with "Be the change you want to see in the world"-style sentiments in the first place. I'm actually confused as to why we've had so much controversy over such a positive affirmation, but here we are.
Hey, as long as we're agreed that these are just pretty platitudes and not even the beginnings of the plan that gets them from a dozen people on a crappy freighter in a galaxy where no one is willing to even respond to Leia's calls for help to decline to this



then we're good as far as I'm concerned.
 
#65
But what if I already walked away from the PT with a low opinion of the Jedi Order back in 2005?
Well then, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't know what they should have done differently.

It only makes him look better by comparison in the sense that he is elevated somewhat from where he was before. The rest of the order remain where they have been.
I dunno, their stance seems to have been moved to 'we don't know what they think' to 'active disinterest'.

And Qui Gon suddenly cares deeply about slavery, but not enough to actually do anything.

For a lot of us, it's only giving acknowledgement to how we've felt since seeing the PT. In all honesty, it was bizarre how little self-awareness there seemed to be with regard to it all before, as their world crashed and burned around them in RotS.

The closest to reflection we get on it is Yoda exiling himself because "Failed I have" -- but even that only sounds like he's talking about his fight with Palpatine.
The thing I find weird about this is that what we're looking at by that point are the victims of genocide... and I legitimately cannot understand the idea that we're supposed to find fault with the victims of genocide for not preventing their own genocide.

Palpatine's trap is magnificent in its brilliance and thoroughness, there's no path they can take that doesn't lead to their annihilation. There's no doctrine they can change that makes Palpy not want to destroy them, there's no action they can take that improves their situation, barring watching the OT in advance like the audience, and even if there was, that still doesn't make them culpable for their own destruction.

The Fall of the Jedi happened because Palpatine wanted it to. There's no lesson there to carry forward, Palpy's just that good.

Their core problem was finding the Sith Lord. The new generations didn't improve their Sith detecting skills, that just wasn't a problem they had to deal with.

I don't think it follows to analogize homelessness with slavery, or a presumably underfunded charity with the superhuman self-styled enforcers of galactic peace and justice ...

I mean, let's keep perspective. Homelessness and slavery are both societal ills, sure, but only one of these is actively, deliberately enforced upon one specific party by another specific party on an ongoing, everyday conscious basis.
Uh, okay, but just because a social issue exists does not mean that the only reason the social issue continues to exist is that no one cares about it. Many organisations do good work on social issues, and the fact that they haven't successfully eradicated them is not evidence that they really don't give a shit.

Jedi are superhuman, yes. They're not all powerful. That's an actual line in Clones, said to Anakin Skywalker, the most superhuman of the superhumans. They can't magically solve every problem in the galaxy by themselves. We know how vast the galaxy is from the shot of the Senate chamber, and there are only 10,000 Jedi. The Jedi have to constantly acknowledge their own limitations in order to get things done, one of which is that they can't face down armies alone.

The only way to end slavery on Tattooine would be to invade and occupy the Hutt worlds. The Republic wouldn't help with that, so the Jedi would have to do it alone. Thousands (millions?) of slaves end up blown up, win or lose, and even if they managed to occupy Tattooine, slavers would just move to new worlds. Ending slavery isn't so easy as that, even for superhumans.

Circumstances do change, particularly when dealing with ever-expanding imperial conquest.

In any case, you're again showing subscription to a very specific interpretation of two lines that may -- if they even turn out to be more than marketing -- be part of a private conversation in which one character tries to encourage another with pretty platitudes.

Not that there's really anything wrong with "Be the change you want to see in the world"-style sentiments in the first place. I'm actually confused as to why we've had so much controversy over such a positive affirmation, but here we are.
They were my first impressions, I gave my reactions to the trailer, I didn't intend a long conversation either, but people objected, so here we are.

Outer rim slavery is part of it, as is their view of the Force, their role in the galaxy, etc., most of which we've discussed before.
Fair enough. I still disagree, but if any mind changing was going to happen it would have by now.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#66
The thing I find weird about this is that what we're looking at by that point are the victims of genocide... and I legitimately cannot understand the idea that we're supposed to find fault with the victims of genocide for not preventing their own genocide.

Palpatine's trap is magnificent in its brilliance and thoroughness, there's no path they can take that doesn't lead to their annihilation. There's no doctrine they can change that makes Palpy not want to destroy them, there's no action they can take that improves their situation, barring watching the OT in advance like the audience, and even if there was, that still doesn't make them culpable for their own destruction.

The Fall of the Jedi happened because Palpatine wanted it to. There's no lesson there to carry forward, Palpy's just that good.
No one is finding fault with the Jedi for preventing their own genocide. What they are finding fault with the Jedi for is how they seem to think of how "normal" people work and think that way of living doesn't apply to the Jedi. When it absolutely does. And that way of thinking certainly did not help the Jedi at all in the long run.

It doesn't take too much to connect how the way Jedi Council thought Anakin's totally normal reaction to a lot of things was weird to how Anakin didn't like what orders he was getting from the Council in Clones. And how that connected to Anakin wanting to leave the order in Revenge only for that desire to get co-opted by Palpatine.

Is it the Jedi Order's fault that they are dead? Of course not. Do I think they made themselves easier to kill rather then harder? Yes. It's very true that Palpatine wanted the Jedi dead. But there's a world of difference between another Jedi thinking the Jedi Council doesn't take them seriously or have their best interests in mind vs there being no Jedi around who doubts the Jedi Council and who can easily be turned against them.

Like... I think Anakin leaving the Jedi Order was in the cards ever since Attack of the Clones. Him killing the Jedi Order though? That was really recent. And had everything to do with Anakin thinking the Jedi Order was out to get him because he knew they didn't believe him or trust him... and that happened long before he ever became a Sith.

The Jedi's Genocide would feel a lot different if it was just oh... the Clone Army that killed them off. Palpatine really didn't even need Anakin to kill the Jedi after all. But having someone turn traitor introduces the idea that maybe there was a decent reason they turned traitor... and like... at least part of that reason was really there.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#67
No one is finding fault with the Jedi for preventing their own genocide. What they are finding fault with the Jedi for is how they seem to think of how "normal" people work and think that way of living doesn't apply to the Jedi. When it absolutely does. And that way of thinking certainly did not help the Jedi at all in the long run.

It doesn't take too much to connect how the way Jedi Council thought Anakin's totally normal reaction to a lot of things was weird to how Anakin didn't like what orders he was getting from the Council in Clones. And how that connected to Anakin wanting to leave the order in Revenge only for that desire to get co-opted by Palpatine.

Is it the Jedi Order's fault that they are dead? Of course not. Do I think they made themselves easier to kill rather then harder? Yes. It's very true that Palpatine wanted the Jedi dead. But there's a world of difference between another Jedi thinking the Jedi Council doesn't take them seriously or have their best interests in mind vs there being no Jedi around who doubts the Jedi Council and who can easily be turned against them.

Like... I think Anakin leaving the Jedi Order was in the cards ever since Attack of the Clones. Him killing the Jedi Order though? That was really recent. And had everything to do with Anakin thinking the Jedi Order was out to get him because he knew they didn't believe him or trust him... and that happened long before he ever became a Sith.

The Jedi's Genocide would feel a lot different if it was just oh... the Clone Army that killed them off. Palpatine really didn't even need Anakin to kill the Jedi after all. But having someone turn traitor introduces the idea that maybe there was a decent reason they turned traitor... and like... at least part of that reason was really there.
Anakin didn't even want to save Obi-Wan in Clones, due to his jealousy, Padme had to bring him around to the idea, he'd rather be out there killing some more Tusken Raider children. Siding with Palpatine against the Jedi had been in the cards for a long time before Revenge.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#68
I think without the Clone Wars, Anakin would have left the Jedi Order a lot earlier. The guy really does want to help people, but he's not a negotiator or a pacifist. The Clone Wars gave him a way of sticking with the Jedi Order in a setting where he could do what he was good at and be respected for it. Without a good outlet for his anger, his relationship with the Jedi Order falls apart very quickly since anger (of any kind it seems) is something the Jedi Order associates with the Dark Side. And if there's one thing the Jedi Order feels the need to do, it's stop the Dark Side.

The entire thing with Shimi is just... arg.... it's such a mess for everyone all the way around. Anakin hasn't seen her since he left Tatooine in TPM (Why?). The Jedi are writing off the dreams he's having of her dying (Again, why?). And then it turns out that all of Anakin's fears about her dying turned out to be totally correct... Which basicly shoves the fact in Anakin's face that the Force can't be what he relies on to save the people he cares about. At least, the Force as it is practiced and paid attention to by the Jedi Council anyway... Having a bit of a mental breakdown over that fact is... rather understandable. Since at least Anakin can do something about the Tuskan Raider threat. He can't actually do anything about how the Jedi Council operates. Especially in Clones before the Clone Wars even starts.

Like... a throw-away line in Clones from Obi-Wan about "the last time we saw your mom two years ago she was fine with that guy she married" would have made the Shimi situation a lot more genuinely tragic from an audience reaction stand-point and a lot less along the lines of "you guys are such idiots when it comes to dealing with the fact that people love other people and want them to be okay even if they logically should be".

Of course, what really stings is that Anakin failing to save Shimi and then killing the people he thinks responsible is all set-up for Revenge of the Sith. When it's Padme and his kids he's getting visions about and this time he already knows the Jedi Council won't understand why he's worried. So he jumps on the next thing offered to him that doesn't have to do with how the Jedi view and use the Force. Anakin has almost no support network from anyone who can use the Force (that he thinks has his best interests in mind) and Palpatine takes full advantage of that.
 
#69
Anakin doesn't actually think the Jedi Council is out to get him until after he takes off Mace Windu's arm. After which, Palpatine points out that murdering half the Jedi Council is something they will take issue with, so they have to strike first. He goes along with that, but only because he needs Palpatine alive for the knowledge to save Padme. He knows he's not doing the right thing, that's why he's crying during it.

His preferred outcome would be Palpatine under arrest where he can interrogate him about the Raise Dead spell, but after he kills half the arresting party, Mace realises that arrest is not an option, and that is when Anakin acts. It's not mistrust of the Jedi. It's the fact that if Palpatine was dead, he can't learn the raise dead spell. That's it. That's why he acts in that moment, and once he acts, he instantly regrets it 'what have I done?', but it's too late.

After that, he's making the Macbeth decision, 'there's no going back now, so I might as well keep going.'

Anakin wants more responsibilities because he is powerful with the Force, but he doesn't have the good judgement to go with those abilities, so is not given the assignments he (wrongly) feels he deserves. He chafes a bit and thinks he's not given his due, but that's kind of normal for a talented teenager, it's not some major resentment. He loses his composure in front of his crush, that's all the conflict with Obi is in Clones, he was making valid points but you don't publicly contradict your superior officer, you air disagreements in private. Disagreeing in front of Padme forces Obi Wan to assert his authority.

Anakin didn't attack Mace because he felt mistrusted, he attacked Mace because Mace was about to kill Palpatine, and Palpatine supposedly held the knowledge that would save Padme.

There's no way the Jedi could treat Anakin that would make him not want to save Padme after his dream about her grisly death. 'I can save your wife from her impending death which you are getting prophetic nightmares about in HD every night' is a very tempting offer, and nothing the Jedi say or do would change that or make it less appealing.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#70
The problem is that the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship isn't just the relationship of a superior officer and a lower-ranked officer. They're closer to being brothers (Obi-Wan even calls Anakin this in Revenge of the Sith) than people in a military chain of command. Which causes all kinds of extra stress in their relationship. Because yes, on the one hand, they are people in a military chain of command (they just don't call it that yet in Clones). On the other hand, Anakin is basically told by his foster brother/uncle figure that "your dreams about your mom dying don't mean anything". Which is like... the last thing Anakin needs to be told from the closest thing he has to a family member for the last ten years.

I think part of what attracts Anakin to Padme so much is that she really isn't in the offical command chain of the Jedi. So she can safely be in a famileal relationship with Anakin, without Anakin having to worry about how that relationship will effect the relationship in the Jedi command chain. Which... I don't think he's ever not had to deal with ever since Tatooine.

There's honestly this potentially toixic mixing of a familial relationship and a "command chain" profesional relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan and Anakin and the Jedi Council. On the one hand, Anakin can't help but treat these people as family since they are the biggest constant in his life since he was ten. On the other hand, they hold all the power in their relationship. They're the ones who decide if he's going to be promoted or not and why that is or not. If they don't like what Anakin is telling them when he's being honest (when they aren't in a "command chain" relationship), that can be used against him when they are in a "command chain" relationship. And I can all too easily see those lines being blurred.

Like... if you spend your entire time in a command chain and everyone you know is over you in rank in that command chain, when do you ever get to stop being in the command chain and decompress from all of that with people who aren't in the command chain?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#71
@Obsidian Fire
@Roger

I think there's truth to both your assessments. Anakin was arguably predisposed to the outcome that came down, but the Jedi Order's ways in general and handling of him specifically didn't help avoid that.

One might say they shouldn't have given him special treatment, and that's true in the sense that he shouldn't receive unearned appointments and the like. I'm just talking about the fact that they knew from the start that he "lacked" the robotic upbringing they considered foundational for training a Jedi, and knew that he had been a literal slave the first nine years of his life.

I suppose it's not surprising that the order didn't have child psychologists around, but it's all the more reason to give them the side eye.=P

To their credit, they did accept Anakin into their order, despite their misgivings (mostly as a favor to Qui-Gon, the first Jedi to die battling a Sith in a millenium), but they didn't change anything else for their approach to the kid. Over and above any notions of how this may have influenced his leanings in The Force, that speaks to a fundamental mishandling of people, as dictated by the Jedi culture's misunderstanding of good, evil, and The Force itself.

It wouldn't be a healthy environment for just anyone, but probably especially not Anakin. Which perhaps says he should not have been trained there at all, at least not as a Jedi -- maybe Obi-Wan really should have been directed to leave the order to fulfill his promise to Qui-Gon.

At any rate, the order would have still had to observe Anakin, as he was simply already too powerful to not be kept under observation. It would have been recklessly irresponsible to lose track of him.

He didn't have to become a Jedi, but that really runs both ways. Once the order took that responsibility on, they were accepting responsibility for seeing him raised properly. He didn't have to be (unsuccessfully) indoctrinated into a way of life they already believed he wouldn't take to.

It was like they knew they needed to do something with him, yet didn't know what, and really didn't want to be bothered with figuring it out. Really, over and above "the Jedi way," they should have just been focused on making sure this obscenely naturally powerful one-time-slave Force user doesn't grow up to be a planet-destroying sociopath.

Well then, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't know what they should have done differently.
Well, I have a few thoughts right above this passage. :monster:

I dunno, their stance seems to have been moved to 'we don't know what they think' to 'active disinterest'.
When the topic is slavery, "we don't know what they think" should never really have been an option. XD

It's not like we're talking about their choices in salad toppings. I can't be the only one who watched TPM twenty years ago at age 13 and was confused as hell why the subject of what they were going to do about things on Tatooine never came up. Not from Qui-Gon, not from Yoda, not from anybody.

And Qui Gon suddenly cares deeply about slavery, but not enough to actually do anything.
Irony of ironies, in the old EU/Legends stuff (as shown in the novel, "Tatooine Ghost"), he actually sent a means of securing Shmi's freedom to her shortly after leaving her behind, and also put the fear of God in a Tatooine slaveowner he saw withholding water from his slaves (I think this was in a TPM comic included with an issue of Wizard magazine).

Anyway, that's neither here nor there since it's the stuff of Legends now.

The thing I find weird about this is that what we're looking at by that point are the victims of genocide... and I legitimately cannot understand the idea that we're supposed to find fault with the victims of genocide for not preventing their own genocide.

Palpatine's trap is magnificent in its brilliance and thoroughness, there's no path they can take that doesn't lead to their annihilation. There's no doctrine they can change that makes Palpy not want to destroy them, there's no action they can take that improves their situation, barring watching the OT in advance like the audience, and even if there was, that still doesn't make them culpable for their own destruction.

The Fall of the Jedi happened because Palpatine wanted it to. There's no lesson there to carry forward, Palpy's just that good.
What if Anakin had fully opposed Palpatine at the moment of his intended ascension, though? Things may have been very different.

As far as blaming genocide victims for their own genocide goes, calling out the toxic shortcomings ingrained in a culture is not tantamount to blaming the whole of the ten thousand or so Jedi who were massacred. Even going as far as outright blaming every Jedi on the council wouldn't do that.

Jedi are superhuman, yes. They're not all powerful. That's an actual line in Clones, said to Anakin Skywalker, the most superhuman of the superhumans. They can't magically solve every problem in the galaxy by themselves. We know how vast the galaxy is from the shot of the Senate chamber, and there are only 10,000 Jedi. The Jedi have to constantly acknowledge their own limitations in order to get things done, one of which is that they can't face down armies alone.
I've always felt that they went beyond acknowledgement of their limitations to imposing some.

... even if they managed to occupy Tattooine, slavers would just move to new worlds. Ending slavery isn't so easy as that, even for superhumans.
Come on, get creative. Surely you could imagine some use or two of Force powers and lightsabers that would leave an unshakeable impression on the potential slaveowners of the galaxy.

They were my first impressions, I gave my reactions to the trailer, I didn't intend a long conversation either, but people objected, so here we are.
Fair enough. :monster:

Fair enough. I still disagree, but if any mind changing was going to happen it would have by now.
Be more optimistic! You could realize I'm right at any time now. :awesome:
 
#72
@Obsidian

Youtubing the scene, there's no sense at all that Obi shut him down about his dreams. Obi asks about them, and tries to reassure him, 'dreams pass in time', and Anakin is the one to change the subject. Obi brings up the topic in the first place, because he notices Anakin isn't looking well. He doesn't know they're prophecies, because there's no reason he should, but he's actually trying to get Anakin to talk, not shutting him down.

Leaving aside Jedi for the moment, it is massively unprofessional and dangerous to have a romantic interest in someone you're bodyguarding, because that affects your focus and then you slip up, which Anakin nearly always does with things relating to Padme.

To their credit, they did accept Anakin into their order, despite their misgivings (mostly as a favor to Qui-Gon, the first Jedi to die battling a Sith in a millenium), but they didn't change anything else for their approach to the kid. Over and above any notions of how this may have influenced his leanings in The Force, that speaks to a fundamental mishandling of people, as dictated by the Jedi culture's misunderstanding of good, evil, and The Force itself.
We have no idea what they changed or didn't change, the movie ended and it cuts to ten years later.

To what I'm sure is your utter shock, I disagree with your assessment.

Anakin was fundamentally unsuited to be in the Jedi Order, and they were correct not to accept him as a candidate. Qui Gon's dying promise scuppers that, though so they decide to do the best they can. Obi Wan feels bound to train him, regardless of the Council's decision, but Obi Wan has just left his own apprenticeship, he's not equipped to adequately train an apprentice alone.

If I blame anyone, it's Qui Gon for trying to put a square peg into a round hole, regardless of what was good for poor Ani.

The best path for Anakin would probably have been to foster him out somewhere, and not train him at all. Luke absent Force training was just a really good pilot. It would be best to keep an eye on him, but he'd only be dangerous if someone like Palpy found him.

But Qui Gon's promise wrecks all that. He's going to be trained one way or the other, so they have to do the best they can.

t's not like we're talking about their choices in salad toppings. I can't be the only one who watched TPM twenty years ago at age 13 and was confused as hell why the subject of what they were going to do about things on Tatooine never came up. Not from Qui-Gon, not from Yoda, not from anybody.
Probably not, but then you grow up, and realise it's more complicated that that. Regime change is stupidly difficult, do it wrong, and you get...well, Iraq, which collapsed into chaos after their dictator was removed which allowed the likes of ISIL to rise. It's not as easy as just roasting Jabba on a spit and then slavery poofs out of existence.

What if Anakin had fully opposed Palpatine at the moment of his intended ascension, though? Things may have been very different.
He did.

He pulled a sword on him immediately, then went to inform the council. He only wanted him alive to learn 'raise dead', and was already plotting against him on Mustafar.

It's hard to imagine any different upbringing meaning Anakin would be able to get past Palpatine holding Padme's life over him, it's just not who he is. He cares deeply about those that are important to him, he would never be able to let her go in the name of the greater good. As long as Palpy can pin himself as the key to saving Padme, Anakin is effectively neutralised.

I've always felt that they went beyond acknowledgement of their limitations to imposing some.
The bit about not being able to fight armies alone is pretty much proven by the Clone Wars (the event, not the show).

Come on, get creative. Surely you could imagine some use or two of Force powers and lightsabers that would leave an unshakeable impression on the potential slaveowners of the galaxy.
Not if I wanted to actually save the slaves and not just get them killed.

.
 
#73
I actually did take a few minutes today to sketch out a plan to remove slavery from Tattooine that I think might be workable...unfortunately step 1 is 'wait for Anakin to grow up.'

Going back to what sparked this line of conversation a bit, for my money the most dickish thing you can do (as a writer) when writing a sequel is attempt to break your predecessor's work. It's much easier to smash a plate than create one. It's the number one thing I try to avoid when writing anything, and something I usually regard as a sign of weakness.

Many of those involved in the PT were the victims of an enormous and sustained campaign of abuse that dealt lasting harm to at least some of them. Then the ST creatives essentially go 'we have have to fix your work', -much of the promotional material is full of low indirect jabs at the PT, which is an additional slap to the faces of those that came before, after all the abuse they took at the time. Retconning in things that validate the hate after the fact is a major dick move, and TFA's marketing is built on things like 'real sets, practical effects', perpetuating the faulty meme that the PT was all greenscreen, and so on.

The cruelest one is probably JJ's joke about putting Jar Jar's skeleton in the background of a scene, in light of what happened with Ahmed. He couldn't have known (at least, I certainly hope not)how deep Ahmed had been cut by all the abuse he got at the time, but he should have known that Jar Jar had taken enormous flack and not twisted the knife.

It should be noted here that most entertainment media needs to be taken with a barrel of salt, because the business model is built on courting controversy for clicks, but it's a very consistent thread through the promotional material.

None of this is to say that I endorse the campaigns of hate against the ST creatives, those are equally awful, which goes without saying, but I'm saying it anyway, just in case. Abuse is abuse, and if anyone is throwing any personal abuse in relation to a film you dislike, then things have gone too far.

Further aside unrelated to the conversation: I've just realised how gruelling the birth of the Skywalker twins must have been, since Anakin and Luke's visions are usually triggered by torture.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#74
We have no idea what they changed or didn't change, the movie ended and it cuts to ten years later.
Clearly not the attachments thing at any rate. =P

To what I'm sure is your utter shock, I disagree with your assessment.

Anakin was fundamentally unsuited to be in the Jedi Order, and they were correct not to accept him as a candidate. Qui Gon's dying promise scuppers that, though so they decide to do the best they can. Obi Wan feels bound to train him, regardless of the Council's decision, but Obi Wan has just left his own apprenticeship, he's not equipped to adequately train an apprentice alone.

If I blame anyone, it's Qui Gon for trying to put a square peg into a round hole, regardless of what was good for poor Ani.

The best path for Anakin would probably have been to foster him out somewhere, and not train him at all. Luke absent Force training was just a really good pilot. It would be best to keep an eye on him, but he'd only be dangerous if someone like Palpy found him.

But Qui Gon's promise wrecks all that. He's going to be trained one way or the other, so they have to do the best they can.
Well, we're in full agreement on almost all of this, especially that last sentence. Where we differ is that I don't believe they did the best they could.

Probably not, but then you grow up, and realise it's more complicated that that. Regime change is stupidly difficult, do it wrong, and you get...well, Iraq, which collapsed into chaos after their dictator was removed which allowed the likes of ISIL to rise. It's not as easy as just roasting Jabba on a spit and then slavery poofs out of existence.
Certainly you grow up and realize it's more complicated than that, such that it won't change overnight with one roasted Hutt. But you also realize how much it both irks you and feels off that the subject never even came up.

You realize how normalized and overlooked this kind of thing must have become for it not to even be on a wishlist of long-term goals discussed regarding where this new Jedi even came from.

He did.

He pulled a sword on him immediately, then went to inform the council. He only wanted him alive to learn 'raise dead', and was already plotting against him on Mustafar.

It's hard to imagine any different upbringing meaning Anakin would be able to get past Palpatine holding Padme's life over him, it's just not who he is. He cares deeply about those that are important to him, he would never be able to let her go in the name of the greater good. As long as Palpy can pin himself as the key to saving Padme, Anakin is effectively neutralised.
I said "fully opposed," which is ultimately not what he was, no. And all of what you bring up we have to analyze through the lens of years of distrust and a dangerously small support network.

We can't help but ponder over whether someone of healthier mind in a healthier environment could have made better choices.

Not if I wanted to actually save the slaves and not just get them killed.
I was referring more to making an example of existing slavers to prospective or aspiring slavers.

But since you bring that back up, I have to ask, should the Rebel Alliance have just accepted the Empire in perpetuity? It wasn't just rebels endangered in some battles, after all.

And what about the Emperor's Contingency? Operation: Cinder? How many imperial subjects did Palpatine plan to take down with him -- even on the most loyal imperial planet, Vardos -- the way you're suggesting most slavers would have done with their victims?

I actually did take a few minutes today to sketch out a plan to remove slavery from Tattooine that I think might be workable...unfortunately step 1 is 'wait for Anakin to grow up.'
Interesting. What's step 2?
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#75
But since you bring that back up, I have to ask, should the Rebel Alliance have just accepted the Empire in perpetuity? It wasn't just rebels endangered in some battles, after all.

And what about the Emperor's Contingency? Operation: Cinder? How many imperial subjects did Palpatine plan to take down with him -- even on the most loyal imperial planet, Vardos -- the way you're suggesting most slavers would have done with their victims?
It's the Rebel Alliance to Restore the Republic. The Republic's rules prevented that Jedi from intervening, not the other way around. You can't have almost the whole galaxy live in a democracy, act as peacekeepers within said galaxy and not be adherent to it's laws. And having the Jedi as peacekeepers is probably part of the reason they didn't have a standing army to expand it's borders by conquering new worlds like Tatioone anymore.
 
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