Naruto Anime/Manga (Manga Spoilers Not Tagged) [WSJ]

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Rather puzzling. We know that Kisame saw both Tobi and Madara's face and recognised them as the same guy. And "Madara" and "Tobi" both at one time wore same mask. But not the same guy. They were controlling the Akatsuki together but not the same guy. I suppose it's gotta be Izuna. But if that's the case then Madara died somewhere down the line at yet someone else's hands still.
 

Elisa Maza

Whomst
I just read the chapter.

tumblr_lsyd2vn86f1qafrh6.jpg


WHAAAAAAAAAA--?????
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I think that the most interesting part about all this is that Madara WAS expecting for Nagato to bring him back. (I added a little more detail to that part of my post after re-reading it). Because Tobi also confirms that Nagato's Rinne Tensei was supposed to be used for him, this means that there's a connection where their planning falls along the same path, or (to some degree) they both consider themselves Madara.

What's interesting is that I think that Muu's splitting Jutsu is being used right now explicitly to explain the duality of this relationship. While it doesn't say whether or not Tobi is a Zetsu with Madara's will transferred into it, or just a carefully perfected clone, it's a bit of a moot point now, because it brings up the duplication paradox. To explain this really easily, we'll use the following comparison:


Key:
• Madara = Sealed Muu (A)
• Tobi = Split Muu (B)


Muu splits himself into "A" & "B" who don't share each other's memories.
"A" dies & is sealed away.
"B" continues making plans and executing strategies for 5 years.
"A" is unsealed and brought back to life.

Now: Are "A" & "B" the same person since they no longer share memories, and may have developed different viewpoints?



Given the relationship explained above, here's my theory as to what happened:

After his battle with the Shodaime Madara was greviously wounded, a shadow of his former self, and unable to continue surviving to fulfil his ambitions. Working with Black Zetsu (who may have been recording the battle, like he did with Naruto & Sasuke), they managed to create stable bodies from the Senju DNA/biomatter that he obtained from the Shodaime Hokage. Since these bodies are able to absorb an individual's Chakra and mimic them, Madara created a copy of himself. Since he can directly interact with this copy, unlike the Zetsu that we're seeing in the war, it could be an exact match. In order to differentiate between themselves and for Zetsu to be able to tell them apart, Madara kept his hair long, while Tobi had his hair short. This would leave Madara & Zetsu as the individuals who know the entire truth.

Since he couldn't risk dying himself, and Tobi's body is naturally more versatile, Madara used Tobi in order to execute the various tasks that he wanted to accomplish. At this early stage, Tobi isn't any more than just an external body for Madara's ambitions, and doesn't identify himself as Madara when he meets Minato, because at this point he's still just a copy. In truth, because of his DNA, Tobi is much more than that. He's the embodyment of 2 of the 6 paths, whereas Madara himself is just 1 of the 6. In working to fulfil these plans, Madara begins manipulating things from the shadows and forming Akatsuki.

At some point, we know that Madara dies. I'm assuming it's at this point that Tobi comes more into the spotlight, and eventually completely assumes the mantle of Madara, since in the absence an the original, the clone can become the genuine entity. His line, "The Sharingan's true power... my power... Ushiha Madara's power...." very much reflects the idea that HE is now Madara, and he truly becomes the single vessel of all of Madara's ambitions and dreams, rather than just a duplicate. Over time, he moves into a more prominent role in Akatsuki, gradually becoming more possessive over his identity.

At this point in the War, Tobi's now embodies 3 of the 6 paths, and is fulfilling what I'm assuming is Madara's original dream/ambition in ways that Madara never could. I have to wonder if at this point, because of everything that he's done, even if as a copy, if Tobi still sees himself as more genuine than the original- a more true version of Madara than the one who died. This connects a bunch of themes that have been present since really early on in Naruto, like the idea of becoming a tool and fully becoming the embodyment of someone else's ambitions to the degree that they then entirely become your own.



X :neo:
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I think that the most interesting part about all this is that Madara WAS expecting for Nagato to bring him back. (I added a little more detail to that part of my post after re-reading it). Because Tobi also confirms that Nagato's Rinne Tensei was supposed to be used for him, this means that there's a connection where their planning falls along the same path, or (to some degree) they both consider themselves Madara.

What's interesting is that I think that Muu's splitting Jutsu is being used right now explicitly to explain the duality of this relationship. While it doesn't say whether or not Tobi is a Zetsu with Madara's will transferred into it, or just a carefully perfected clone, it's a bit of a moot point now, because it brings up the duplication paradox. To explain this really easily, we'll use the following comparison:


Key:
• Madara = Sealed Muu (A)
• Tobi = Split Muu (B)


Muu splits himself into "A" & "B" who don't share each other's memories.
"A" dies & is sealed away.
"B" continues making plans and executing strategies for 5 years.
"A" is unsealed and brought back to life.

Now: Are "A" & "B" the same person since they no longer share memories, and may have developed different viewpoints?



Given the relationship explained above, here's my theory as to what happened:

After his battle with the Shodaime Madara was greviously wounded, a shadow of his former self, and unable to continue surviving to fulfil his ambitions. Working with Black Zetsu (who may have been recording the battle, like he did with Naruto & Sasuke), they managed to create stable bodies from the Senju DNA/biomatter that he obtained from the Shodaime Hokage. Since these bodies are able to absorb an individual's Chakra and mimic them, Madara created a copy of himself. Since he can directly interact with this copy, unlike the Zetsu that we're seeing in the war, it could be an exact match. In order to differentiate between themselves and for Zetsu to be able to tell them apart, Madara kept his hair long, while Tobi had his hair short. This would leave Madara & Zetsu as the individuals who know the entire truth.

Since he couldn't risk dying himself, and Tobi's body is naturally more versatile, Madara used Tobi in order to execute the various tasks that he wanted to accomplish. At this early stage, Tobi isn't any more than just an external body for Madara's ambitions, and doesn't identify himself as Madara when he meets Minato, because at this point he's still just a copy. In truth, because of his DNA, Tobi is much more than that. He's the embodyment of 2 of the 6 paths, whereas Madara himself is just 1 of the 6. In working to fulfil these plans, Madara begins manipulating things from the shadows and forming Akatsuki.

At some point, we know that Madara dies. I'm assuming it's at this point that Tobi comes more into the spotlight, and eventually completely assumes the mantle of Madara, since in the absence an the original, the clone can become the genuine entity. His line, "The Sharingan's true power... my power... Ushiha Madara's power...." very much reflects the idea that HE is now Madara, and he truly becomes the single vessel of all of Madara's ambitions and dreams, rather than just a duplicate. Over time, he moves into a more prominent role in Akatsuki, gradually becoming more possessive over his identity.

At this point in the War, Tobi's now embodies 3 of the 6 paths, and is fulfilling what I'm assuming is Madara's original dream/ambition in ways that Madara never could. I have to wonder if at this point, because of everything that he's done, even if as a copy, if Tobi still sees himself as more genuine than the original- a more true version of Madara than the one who died. This connects a bunch of themes that have been present since really early on in Naruto, like the idea of becoming a tool and fully becoming the embodyment of someone else's ambitions to the degree that they then entirely become your own.



X :neo:

Well not so much that by the time of Nagato's death, he was ready to not bring Madara Classic back. And he's still not ready to take off his mask and walk around looking like Uchiha Madara... if that's really what's behind the mask.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Neat theory X-SOLDIER. Is anyone else bugged by the fact we know next to nothing back-story-wise about Zetsu? It's like the guy's living in a vacuum.

Anyone want to bet that Naruto is the Fourth Rikudo?
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Yeah.... I REALLY don't trust Zetsu, especially because he's so integral to everything that's happening right now, but I think that's why we've got him alone right now, and that they flashed a look at that battle again.

I read an interested hypothesis that Naruto & Sasuke working together would be the Fourth Rikudo, rather than it being embodied entirely into a single individual, since I can't see Naruto obtaining Sharingan/Rinnegan, even though his form with the horns and necklace resembles the Sage.


X :neo:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
I almost put up that Sasuke would be a better candidate for being the "Fourth Rikudo" as he's a descendant of the First Rikudo. BTW, it's been confirmed that Nagato and Naruto are both Uzumaki. Has it ever been said that Naruto is related to the First Rikudo by blood and not just his ideas?

The Shinobi alliance almost needs Sasuke if they ever hope to defeat Madara; the best counter for a sharingan is a sharingan and both Madara and Sasuke have EMS. I think Naruto would even have trouble.

I'm wondering what effect Madara being resurrected via Edo Tensai will have on his plan as it's a lot different then Rinne Tensei. The thing with Edo Tensai, is that you're clearly still dead even though you can move around (undead?) whereas with Rinne Tensei, everyone is back to normal (alive). Also, there is still a chance that Kabuto could mind control Madara. I can't help but think that Edo Tensai has thrown a wrench in Madara's plans; it's Kabuto after all.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I don't think that the origins of the Uzumaki clan have ever been explicitly connected to the original Rikudo Sennin. I think a big part of Madara's early plan was to eliminate any Sharingan users opposing him (though there IS Itachi now, sort of).

I'm pretty sure that Madara's a lot more pissed off about it than we've seen. His description of the technique clearly shows his disgust. Also, this makes it PERFECTLY clear why Tobi was very careful to learn how Edo Tensei works, because he was expecting that Kabuto would use his trump card, and he can't have it backfiring.

I'm pretty sure that Kabuto is trolling the everliving bajeezus out of absolutely anyone he can whenever he can. :awesomonster:


X :neo:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I think the fact that Naruto's Nine Tailed Chakra Cloak inexplicably resembles the Sage of the Six Path's outfit and design is more than just a nod to the Sage of the Six Paths.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Naruto *is* a descendant of his, and that's why he's the way he is.

Anyways, the chapter was epic. I wouldn't be surprised if Tobi was some super Zetsu or something, but my gut tells me Tobi is either:

A "copy" or clone of Madara and his mind implanted in a White Zetsu shell.

Madara's brother.

A brand new enemy, supernatural in origin.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Ok, so there are a number of things that are starting to make lots more sense:

Rinnegan are the final evolution of the Sharingan, explaining why they're connected to the tablet hidden by the Uchiha. This ALSO explains how Tobi's attempting to groom Sasuke into becoming the next pawn to sync with Gedo Mazo by developing his Sharingan into Rinnegan.

Aside from the, Madara is a FUCKING BEAST. Using a gigantic meteor justu with Susano'o- Holy mother of GOD.


X :neo:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Madara was not bragging when he called himself the Second Rikudou. If he was this powerful, how much more powerful would Harashima have to be? To bad we'll never get to see that match-up.

And I really want to know where Nagato got his rinnegan. We would know by now if he was an Uchiha and it's obvious he's not. Also, it sounds like Sasuke could eventually get the rinnegan as that's the only thing better then the Eternal Mangekyou and he now has that. It would really be in Original-Madara's best interests to kill Sauske, but Madara doesn't know Sasuke exists yet. That will be a very interesting meeting.

Prediction: Kabuto can still take over Madara the way he can everyone else he's resurrected. He'll do so to counteract Itachi's Susano'o. Of course, Itachi is the only person who has access to the Sword of Totsuka...

Did anyone see the last panel and think it looked like Madara summoned Meteor FFVII style?

To say the next couple of chapters are going to be interesting would be an understatement.
 

Elisa Maza

Whomst
The last page...

THE LAST PAGE!!

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And the First was able to beat that monster????

Whoever said that Naruto was close to the First's power was deeply wrong.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Also, it sounds like Sasuke could eventually get the rinnegan as that's the only thing better then the Eternal Mangekyou and he now has that. It would really be in Original-Madara's best interests to kill Sauske, but Madara doesn't know Sasuke exists yet. That will be a very interesting meeting.

http://naruto.anifreak.com/manga/naruto/453/17

That's pretty much a guarantee that Sasuke's specifically been pushed into developing the Rinnegan, so that Tobi can use him for Gedo Mazo.


X :neo:
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Okay so, my theory.

Madara takes Izuna's eyes, doesn't kill him.

Madara gets EMS

Izuna fakes his death.

Madara fights Hashirama, collects Hashirama cells, fakes his death too.

Over the years start killing the Uchiha clan off one by one and stockpiling eyes (and give Izuna something to see out off).

They start developing a Kinjutsu to give themselves a body capable of making them Rikudo Sennins, to go with the eyes.

Madara tries it first, but it was unsuccessful and though he does acquire Rinnegan he starts dying. Madara and Izuna invade the Uzumaki village, steal a child.

Genjutsu mindrape him to think he's native to the Hidden Rain and Konoha ninja killed his parents. Drop him off in the Hidden Rain.

Madara dies shortly afterwards. Plan for him to bring back Uchiha Madara once the jutsu is ready.

Nagato forms Akatsuki.

Hiruzen evicts Orochimaru, forcing him to abandon his research not knowing about Yamato.

Orochimaru joins Akatsuki.

Uchiha massacre, Itachi joins Akatsuki, Orochimaru leaves.

Danzo knows how successful he actually was contracts Orochimaru to help him with Senju/Uchiha powers. Orochimaru gladly obliges, still butthurt about Itachi. Discovers a lot about the Uchiha and Senju clans in his research, rips Danzo off with a shitty deal, knows he has to wait until he acquires a living Uchiha before putting his personal health on the line.

Develops Edo Tensei to bing back Uchiha Madara so he can start experimenting to get past that whole dying after developing Rinnegan.

Both Izuna and Orochimaru are successful, Izuna with the whole Zetsu plant that he can use to get new organs, if not a whole new body. Y'know the rest.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
http://naruto.anifreak.com/manga/naruto/453/17

That's pretty much a guarantee that Sasuke's specifically been pushed into developing the Rinnegan, so that Tobi can use him for Gedo Mazo.


X :neo:
One more reason Sasuke is going to go after Tobi... eventually.

Develops Edo Tensei to bing back Uchiha Madara so he can start experimenting to get past that whole dying after developing Rinnegan.
Er, Orochimaru did not develop Edo Tensei, Hirashima's brother, Tobirama aka the Nidaime Hokage did. It's been implied that he was the first person able to actually do the jutsu with Orochimaru being the second, and Kabuto, the third. The big question is, who did Tobirama resurrect and where are they now?

Another thought. It's clear that the Juubi had what looks like a combination of the rinnegan and the sharingan. It's also stated that the reason why the original Rikudou Sennin was able to beat him was because he had the rinnegan. If the rinnegan is the evolved form of the EMS, the sharigan pre-dates the Rikudou and even the invention of ninjutsu. However, Tobi-Madara says that Uchiha and Senju clans/bloodlines were started with the Rikudou's two students. We are missing something big here.
 
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Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Sorry, I meant learns it. As for your question, I assume Tobirama created it so he could bring Hashirama back. Cause the village system was based on deterrence, the other villages had Bijuu as a deterrent. Konoha had Hashirama as a deterrent. That's how good he was.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Another thought. It's clear that the Juubi had what looks like a combination of the rinnegan and the sharingan. It's also stated that the reason why the original Rikudou Sennin was able to beat him was because he had the rinnegan. If the rinnegan is the evolved form of the EMS, the sharigan pre-dates the Rikudou and even the invention of ninjutsu. However, Tobi-Madara says that Uchiha and Senju clans/bloodlines were started with the Rikudou's two students. We are missing something big here.

As Naruto's power as a Jinchuriki get more powerful, his form starts to resemble the body of the Rikudo Sennin, as seen through the power of the younger son of the Sage (the aura around his body). When Sasuke's eyes get more powerful, they apparently will become the eyes of the Rikudo Sennin as representation of the power of the elder son of the Sage (unique doujutsu).

Essentially, not only are they more closely resembling those of the ancestral origins that they originated from, but they're actually taking the full form of the Sage's attributes.

The Rikudo Sennin was the Jinchuriki of the Jubi, which is essentially two beings manifested into one form, much like that of Yin & Yang. It would make sense that the way the Sage's powers may be manifested into his two ancestors would have been this same dichotomy, thus the similarities between the Rinnegan/Sharingan and the Juubi's eye. The elder son is representative of Yang/physical power and judgement, whereas the younger brother is representative of Yin/spiritual power and compassion. This also explains why he chose the younger brother as his heir.

This is extremely important when looking at Naruto, and looking at the lesson that both Bee & Gaara have shown- their real power isn't their Biju. This understanding is why some Jinchuriki like Bee are able to sync so well with their host, and why Gaara is the Kazekage even without his Biju. I think that it's also the same reason why the Shodai was able to beat Madara, and Naruto will be able to beat Sasuke, even if their opponents are technically FAR more powerful than they are.


X :neo:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
This is extremely important when looking at Naruto, and looking at the lesson that both Bee & Gaara have shown- their real power isn't their Biju. This understanding is why some Jinchuriki like Bee are able to sync so well with their host,
From everything we've heard, it seems Yagara had this level of sync with his bijuu. Really want to know if that was all him or Madara using his Sharingan.
 

Elisa Maza

Whomst
Now, that I'm re-reading the chapter... Madara doesn't seem happy to be back in lige through Edo Tensei. I'm betting all my money that he expected to be brought back by Nagato's Rinne Tensei no jutsu and this ruins he plans.

I'm convinced that Tobi is Madara's brother and they were working together since the beginning. They had actually planned Madara to die and be resurrected later, when Tobi would had made the suitable preparations.

I think we're in for a good mindfuck.
 
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