New Dissidia Arcade Game (NT)

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
If it's at the stage of being datamined like this was, that's much further along than the drawing board.

I seem to have hit a sore point here.

I'm just saying a developer has the right to express their opinion on the progress (or delay) of their own works, and if a leak causes problems with the game's schedule, yeah... I would be frustrated too.
Precisely zero problems have been caused for either Dissidia NT or KH3's schedules by leaks. I don't know what you're referring to.
They should just stop that old fashioned bullshit, and just tell us what they intend to do. It's a job. You're selling a product.. Flush your personal feelings when you get into the office.
Personal feelings is all it is. Wanting to be a recluse for literally years on end, then strut out on a stage to announce something that isn't really that big a deal -- yet still get to feel like a rock star about it.

Nomura needs to remove his head from his ass, yesterday. Or ten years ago as of yesterday.
 

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
Precisely zero problems have been caused for either Dissidia NT or KH3's schedules by leaks. I don't know what you're referring to.
I'm referring to DLC schedules in general. Planning is involved in many games' DLC, not just Dissidia or KH3. If Leaks "didn't" cause problems, game devs wouldn't be bothered by them, but it does screw things up, especially in P.R.

Instead of looking at games from a consumer's perspective, it might be a good idea to look at what all goes on behind the scenes. The fact Nomura said he "works year round" and seldom takes breaks should be a warning sign to you.

Maybe he is disconnected from the people around him, but that might very well be because he's doing work all day.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I'm referring to DLC schedules in general. Planning is involved in many games' DLC, not just Dissidia or KH3. If Leaks "didn't" cause problems, game devs wouldn't be bothered by them, but it does screw things up, especially in P.R.
This is essentially circular reasoning -- "We know it causes problems because Nomura has a problem with it; Nomura has a problem with it because it causes problems."

This is altogether nonsensical as reasoning.

Name some tangible problems caused here rather than deferring as evidence solely to the tantrums of a developer who would completely discredit himself by suggesting "maybe we should keep the best stuff for Japan" or otherwise punishing half of his work's potential customers for something that a) involved no more than a handful of people at most; b) could have been done by anyone anywhere (including Japan); and c) has no evidence of any harm caused in the first place other than his own vague, seemingly ego-fueled complaints.

While you're at it, explain how datamining Dissidia NT to get an idea about upcoming DLC was so substantially detrimental for it but not for FFXV. Because if you don't think that game was datamined, glitch exploited, and otherwise hacked to hell and back from the release of its first demo up to the present day, then boy, have I got some news for you.

And here's some news for him: "Transgressions" like this are people engaging with his product. Showing interest in it. Were he not so self-absorbed, he would have considered that it's a good thing that there are people eager enough to get their hands on his work that they can't wait for arbitrarily timed delays and 90s-era press announcements for so much as a morsel of information.

Blade said:
Instead of looking at games from a consumer's perspective, it might be a good idea to look at what all goes on behind the scenes.
Please elucidate that for me then. If there's more to this than "Trust the guy flipping the Monopoly board over that there's actual problems," I want to talk about it.

Blade said:
The fact Nomura said he "works year round" and seldom takes breaks should be a warning sign to you.
Of what?

Blade said:
Maybe he is disconnected from the people around him, but that might very well be because he's doing work all day.
So Yoshida and Tabata don't/didn't?
 

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
Name some tangible problems caused here
Say you wanted to promote a game you were working hard on but everything about that game was leaked to the public, what sort of presentation are you going to give to advertise it?

Are you just going to go ahead with the presentation, hecklers be damned?
And if part of the game itself is intended to be a surprise in terms of impact on people, what then?
Yeah, okay sure, people can just ignore any and all spoilers, but sometimes that's inescapable, and there's no way to console the people being spoiled, either.

Even if you don't give a crap about spoilers or surprises, there's still the problem of game impressions which make or break the sale of a game. If people get the wrong impression of the game you're trying to sell, it's not gonna sell and you'll lose money.

DLC does this sometimes, especially if it's revealed via a leak... people get disappointed and they lose interest without even considering whether or not the DLC is or could be good or not.

If you get a spoilerific summary made of a game you haven't played yet, would that change your overall impression of the game?
Some people try to deny it, but the fact is any and all impressions we have of anything we're presented impact us.

And if all of this is still "intangible" to you, consider what games are: very intangible.

Game developers are trying to sell you an experience, but if that experience is revealed under false intentions, that ruins the overall experience.
Like going on a roller coaster ride for free only to conclude what someone else said about it.

FF has been around long enough that it's become a deep part of people's lives, so tangible or not, the experience of it is important to people, so when that experience gets destroyed, you might as well be taking a hammer to your game console.

This is also a problem in terms of competition. When you have a product that gets leaked, other game developers are going to know what cards your playing and they'll be able to release better products than yours and steal your customers essentially.

rather than deferring as evidence solely to the tantrums of a developer who would completely discredit himself by suggesting "maybe we should keep the best stuff for Japan" or otherwise punishing half of his work's potential customers for something that a) involved no more than a handful of people at most; b) could have been done by anyone anywhere (including Japan); and c) has no evidence of any harm caused in the first place other than his own vague, seemingly ego-fueled complaints.
You're assuming that's the plan he and everyone else at Square Enix will go for, but they don't just do everything he says.
People seem to think if Nomura breathes wrong it's going to be hell on earth here, that's probably not how things work.

Given that he's been shifted to other projects before, if his opinion was a problem management would have adjusted things accordingly.

And as I said before, yeah OK Japan-centric game development exists... but it has more to do with what sells and what's easier to sell in that region versus how hard it would be to sell it here... that's the harsh reality of business.

If you don't want all the goodies to go to Japan, complain to Square Enix about it publicly, I would totally support you in that endeavor. In fact that's the way to go when you want to change how things are handled nowadays. Tweet about it to them, e-mail them, let them know your opinion.

Gamer opinion is more valuable than you might think.

While you're at it, explain how datamining Dissidia NT to get an idea about upcoming DLC was so substantially detrimental for it but not for FFXV. Because if you don't think that game was datamined, glitch exploited, and otherwise hacked to hell and back from the release of its first demo up to the present day, then boy, have I got some news for you.
Dissidia NT was an ARCADE GAME first and foremost... the fact they relied heavily on Gacha-like Lootbox formats for releasing game content and the fact the game involves Multiplayer experiences with barely any single player aspects, those factors probably were the most detrimental to the game compared to anything anyone else could have done to access the game's data.

Rather than saying the DLC leak was detrimental in that case, the game itself was detrimental to itself. The leak just made things worse, essentially.
And this isn't the first time they've pulled DLC from Dissidia, as even in Duodecim, because of the PSP getting decrypted, a lot of what they planned to sell us got scrapped, so most people had to get the alternate costumes from people who were lucky enough to get them.

Duodecim was still salvageable in terms of its content but still, when bad things happen to a bad (or at least poorly received) game, it just makes things look even worse.

And here's some news for him: "Transgressions" like this are people engaging with his product. Showing interest in it. Were he not so self-absorbed, he would have considered that it's a good thing that there are people eager enough to get their hands on his work that they can't wait for arbitrarily timed delays and 90s-era press announcements for so much as a morsel of information.
If he was as self-absorbed as you say, public opinion on his games would hardly affect him, and yet it does.
Also I'd hardly consider leaks and datamining to be "engaging a product", more like ripping it's brain and heart and guts out.

Also you can't arbitrarily blame him solely for Square-Enix's business and advertising practices. That's partly on them too.
Like I said, voice your opinion to them, if you don't not much will change here.

Please elucidate that for me then. If there's more to this than "Trust the guy flipping the Monopoly board over that there's actual problems," I want to talk about it.
You might want to cool your head a bit.

Of what? So Yoshida and Tabata don't/didn't?
It's called Overwork... also the "Crunch"... in Japan it's especially a problem because they focus heavily on producing results with their work ethic at the detriment to people's physical and mental health.

Of course, I don't expect you to sympathize with someone like Nomura for that.
The Crunch has been talked about more here in the west, but it's still an ongoing issue that needs resolving in other regions.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Say you wanted to promote a game you were working hard on but everything about that game was leaked to the public, what sort of presentation are you going to give to advertise it?
The same way I would if it hadn't been leaked: putting forward what I thought was the coolest stuff. Isn't this what is always done?

Blade said:
Are you just going to go ahead with the presentation, hecklers be damned?
Yep!

Blade said:
And if part of the game itself is intended to be a surprise in terms of impact on people, what then?
Then they were presumably surprised when they learned about it. Hopefully it got them excited to play the game.

Blade said:
Even if you don't give a crap about spoilers or surprises, there's still the problem of game impressions which make or break the sale of a game. If people get the wrong impression of the game you're trying to sell, it's not gonna sell and you'll lose money.

DLC does this sometimes, especially if it's revealed via a leak... people get disappointed and they lose interest without even considering whether or not the DLC is or could be good or not.

If you get a spoilerific summary made of a game you haven't played yet, would that change your overall impression of the game?
Some people try to deny it, but the fact is any and all impressions we have of anything we're presented impact us.

And if all of this is still "intangible" to you, consider what games are: very intangible.

Game developers are trying to sell you an experience, but if that experience is revealed under false intentions, that ruins the overall experience.
Like going on a roller coaster ride for free only to conclude what someone else said about it.

FF has been around long enough that it's become a deep part of people's lives, so tangible or not, the experience of it is important to people, so when that experience gets destroyed, you might as well be taking a hammer to your game console.
If learning what the content itself will be is what is putting people off a purchase, then whatever they took issue with was going to put them off regardless of when they learned about it. The only difference here is that they didn't wait an unnecessary span of additional months to be disappointed about it.

I would also counter that if the content itself is something that will get a player excited, finding out about it sooner is more likely to keep them engaged with the product while they wait for the anticipated content.

Blade said:
This is also a problem in terms of competition. When you have a product that gets leaked, other game developers are going to know what cards your playing and they'll be able to release better products than yours and steal your customers essentially.
Not that an attempt at competition couldn't rear its head in some situations (I do see that point), but no one else is going to be able to steal, for example, players eager to use Snow Villiers in a fighting game. If that has players excited, then Square has that market entirely locked down from go.

Blade said:
You're assuming that's the plan he and everyone else at Square Enix will go for, but they don't just do everything he says.
I'm not assuming he's speaking for Square Enix. I'm assuming that his shitty remarks represent himself, and it is he I am furious with.

Blade said:
People seem to think if Nomura breathes wrong it's going to be hell on earth here, that's probably not how things work.
I don't know who these people are.

Blade said:
Rather than saying the DLC leak was detrimental in that case, the game itself was detrimental to itself.
Pretty much.

Blade said:
The leak just made things worse, essentially.
How? It should have made fans of Rinoa, Yuna, Snow, Gilgamesh, etc. excited, and helped the game if anything.

Blade said:
And this isn't the first time they've pulled DLC from Dissidia, as even in Duodecim, because of the PSP getting decrypted, a lot of what they planned to sell us got scrapped, so most people had to get the alternate costumes from people who were lucky enough to get them.
That was just an altogether illogical reaction, though. It was stupid when they did it, and still is.

Blade said:
If he was as self-absorbed as you say, public opinion on his games would hardly affect him, and yet it does.
Does it? He admits to barely being aware of reviews to his games. He doesn't show much awareness of what his games' fans are concerned about either (e.g. the surprised reactions to fans being so concerned about Aqua in KH3 and being so interested in whether KH3 would have the FF cast members).

Blade said:
Also I'd hardly consider leaks and datamining to be "engaging a product", more like ripping it's brain and heart and guts out.
If you have just heard that a movie you're now very interested in seeing will be coming sometime this year, do you wait until trailers start dropping for it on TV to find out if there is more specific information -- or do you take it upon yourself to head for Google and search out what there is to be found?

This is no different.

Blade said:
Also you can't arbitrarily blame him solely for Square-Enix's business and advertising practices. That's partly on them too.
Of course it is. But when he is suggesting an awful idea, that's on him.

Blade said:
You might want to cool your head a bit.
It's Nomura I'm angry with, not you. I do apologize, though, for starting to steam.

Blade said:
It's called Overwork... also the "Crunch"... in Japan it's especially a problem because they focus heavily on producing results with their work ethic at the detriment to people's physical and mental health.

Of course, I don't expect you to sympathize with someone like Nomura for that.
The Crunch has been talked about more here in the west, but it's still an ongoing issue that needs resolving in other regions.
I certainly sympathize with all who face these unreasonable challenges and expectations as game developers (or in any other field, for that matter). I'm not sure I understand how we've arrived at the topic, though. :monster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I should also add, by the way, that it's frustrating being pissed off at Nomura right now -- when he has only just delivered the awesome round of emotional payoffs that is KHIII. The game actually did everything it needed to, then did damn near everything you could hope for it to. Nomura actually really nailed it with this.

So yeah, it's not like I prefer being pissed at the dude.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I was just complaining to a friend about how I wish we saw more of Lightning doing stuff in the story of NT and apparently the writers heard me :mon:

That was an awesome use of her and Snow. I was afraid we'd get another lukewarm post-game scene with Snow randomly talking to other characters or something. Like what we did with Rinoa and Yuna. That was lame.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Ohhh I see. I always thought it was a funny back and forth between them.

But I agree it wouldn't be appropriate in this setting or situation and I'm glad they didn't do it.
 
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Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
I might dabble with it, but I'm skeptical it'll hook me. I've already made my intense dislike of the limited moveset and lack of other rpg elements clear.
At the very least it's a game for killing time, I'll say that much. You don't really have to think about it all that much when playing, and just mess around... and it's a social game so you can goof off online with friends. It's like if Smash Bros was an FF game, pretty much.

I still play it now and again just to unlock all the battle music and weapons/skins/quotes.

I'm definitely picking this up to compare it to the console version at the very least.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Comparing Dissidia NT to the old PSP game makes zero sense at this point.

They are entirely different types of fighting games done for completely different consoles, at different eras.

Dissidia NT is fighting game, a team based, arcade fighting game.

Dissidia is a weird hybrid RPG and handheld PSP era 1 v 1 fighting game, with only ad-hoc capabilities.

It's like comparing Soul Calibur 6 to Marvel vs. Capcom. Like, seriously. There's a time to move on.
 
Comparing Dissidia NT to the old PSP game makes zero sense at this point.

They are entirely different types of fighting games done for completely different consoles, at different eras.

Dissidia NT is fighting game, a team based, arcade fighting game.

Dissidia is a weird hybrid RPG and handheld PSP era 1 v 1 fighting game, with only ad-hoc capabilities.

It's like comparing Soul Calibur 6 to Marvel vs. Capcom. Like, seriously. There's a time to move on.
It's simple: One I like, one I don't.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Well you won't really like it, if you compare it to something it can't and won't ever emulate in the end.

Dissidia NT is meant to be a true, team fighting game. You play it with humans, focused on a team strategy and sharing abilities. It's meant to be played like a game for humans, not a pseudo-RPG grinder with trappings of a fighting game.

It's way more in-depth, and you have far more variety of characters but just discounting it cause it's not the same as a PSP era 1v1 RPG fighter is like, totally missing the point of how it plays or what it can even do as a fighting game.
 
Well you won't really like it, if you compare it to something it can't and won't ever emulate in the end.

Dissidia NT is meant to be a true, team fighting game. You play it with humans, focused on a team strategy and sharing abilities. It's meant to be played like a game for humans, not a pseudo-RPG grinder with trappings of a fighting game.

It's way more in-depth, and you have far more variety of characters but just discounting it cause it's not the same as a PSP era 1v1 RPG fighter is like, totally missing the point of how it plays or what it can even do as a fighting game.
I say this in the nicest way possible: Fuck off Mako.

I'm very much not in the mood for you taking to every single contrary opinion like it's a death battle with something to prove.

There were a lot of things I liked about Dissidia PSP that didn't need to be removed.

It is not way more in-depth to just be a clusterfuck free for all.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I say this in the nicest way possible: Fuck off Mako.

I'm very much not in the mood for you taking to every single contrary opinion like it's a death battle with something to prove.

There were a lot of things I liked about Dissidia PSP that didn't need to be removed.

It is not way more in-depth to just be a clusterfuck free for all.
:prefacepalm:

If you can't handle someone bringing up a contrary opinion, just don't say anything or bother. If you can't get over it being different that's fine, but don't be pissy cause someone says otherwise.

...And come on. That's totally not the nicest way possible.
 
:prefacepalm:

If you can't handle someone bringing up a contrary opinion, just don't say anything or bother. If you can't get over it being different that's fine, but don't be pissy cause someone says otherwise.

...And come on. That's totally not the nicest way possible.
Take your own advice first. You came in swinging. I'm done with you.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Take your own advice first. You came in swinging. I'm done with you.
..."Swinging" in saying to give the game a chance on it's own merits versus comparing it to a totally different game?

Umm, ok I guess? Didn't think you'd take it personally to try something different.
 
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