New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Alessa Gillespie]

Is the soup a Cloti or a Clerith here? Your answer could make all the difference.

the soup is actually a metaphor for people with tuberculosis.

which means the metaphor has very little to do with who cloud's fucking at all

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Off-topic shit:

Also this thread makes me wanna play pong SO BAD.

It gets you in the mood for a back-and-forth exercise in futility?

So here's an idea.

If we're going to applaud Tres and swear by his admittedly excellent post...maybe we should, y'know, actually do what it's saying.

I like how you think.

Looking at it now, thread shouldn't have been revived and I think needs to be laid to rest unless something actually relevant comes up that needs it's own debate thread again over whether Cloud is still fucking Tifa or not.

It's a drama magnet and no amount of TLS modding has been able to fix that. So if the kids can't play nice, take the toy away and let them find something else to do.

I'm probably the biggest LTD freak here. I mean I'm making a website and I have a forum FFS. But even I agree with this. I enjoy discussing this stuff, but it just seems to cause problems here. I think the atmosphere here was much nicer without it.

I definitely agree that it shouldn't have been revived, but -- despite how much I want it to go away -- I'll be damned if I'm going to lock it just because a very small minority (one person right now) can't or chooses not to check knee-jerk emotions at the door. It's going to happen one way or another, whether that be self-checking or assisted.

Some people love to discuss this topic, and most can do it with civility. This thread is going to remain here for them until it dies a natural death -- slow and painful, as God intended death be.




Yay for on-topic shit:

No, I'm not saying it's not canon. I'm calling bullshit on the execution. It's far too ambiguous and contradictory, beyond the possibility of being intentionally so.

I personally always thought the "words aren't the only way" line followed by the classic sexy time pan and fade made it really unambiguous, even when I was 11 and playing the game for the first time.

Of course, I probably saw sexy time in everything by the time I was 11. Anyway, I don't think they were ever going for ambiguous. Based on that interview in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, I think they just felt a blatant tone didn't sit as right as a subtle one.

You know what? I'm a shipper.

First off, I TOO am a shipper.

Come on, people, stand up!

Is it bad, by the way, that I debated using this vid instead?:

And as long as I'm posting vids relevant to this line of thought:

I'm a shipper too, btw.

But given his actions in CoT and AC, it's pretty clear he's not over Aeris -- even Tifa recognizes this, to the point where she wants to hide the delivery for flowers to her grave.

She didn't hide anything. She just found the receipt from after the fact and put it with the other receipts while trying to reassure herself that everything was okay. Cloud was doing the delivery that day, and may have already done it by the time she came across that receipt. That's why Tifa is worrying in the next paragraph about his guilt over Aerith's death, and presumably why he's drinking that night.

In any case, of course Cloud wasn't over her, but the question is in what sense he wasn't over her. All statements from official sources have been that it was his guilt he wasn't over, not a romantic longing.

Yeah, Tifa was bothered a little when she found out he was staying at Aerith's church (her 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile says as much). But Tifa feeling insecure when her partner has seemingly abandoned her for no obvious reason to go stay where another chick used to hang out (a very special place to her, in fact) would make anybody insecure, especially if they didn't know for sure if there were some romantic feelings tied up in it. She didn't know yet that he had geostigma after all, and she immediately figured out what was really up with him once she learned of his condition.

I'm not forgetting about Zack; he feels guilt over that as well, but Zack is clearly not the catalyst for this sudden destructive behavior. Shit starts going downhill when Cloud delivers flowers to Aeris' grave. There's a significant focus on her in the storyline, and he seeks her forgiveness, not anyone else's. iirc the wolf vanishes when she helps him realize she never blamed him at all.

Not really disagreeing with anything here, but the wolf only seems to vanish after Cloud forgives himself. Even after Aerith told him she didn't blame him, he was still saying stuff like, "See? I knew I'd be no help," and the wolf still appeared at the City of the Ancients too.

Seems to be what Vincent said more than anything that turned him around. He's barely able to take on his geostigma before that, but after, he's confident in himself again.

Of course, I'm not discounting that it was Aerith saying "I never blamed you" that moved him along to the forgiving himself bit; I'm just trying to clarify "out loud" in both our minds exactly when wolfy hit the ol' dusty trail.

Denzel is not a romantic interest (and neither was Zack, at least ~officially~). SE is not oblivious to the ship wars, they know how recognized Aeris and Tifa are as love interests, and they created a direct parallel between them. It's a pretty clear message imo.

Without assuming SE wanted to pander to those shipping wars with that scene, though, it's a bit much to assume a parallel beyond there being another person Cloud cares about who he fears he won't save. If there were only an Aerith/Tifa flash, I'd be more inclined to agree, but there's simultaneously the Zack/Denzel flash too -- and since Zack wasn't like a son to Cloud and Denzel isn't a mentor to him, we really can't just assume one parallel is meant to be wholesale (another female he's in love with, and, thus, the same role in his life as the first) while the other is meant to be less specific (another male he cares about, but with a different role in his life than the first).

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Without assuming SE wanted to pander to those shipping wars with that scene, though, it's a bit much to assume a parallel beyond there being another person Cloud cares about who he fears he won't save. If there were only an Aerith/Tifa flash, I'd be more inclined to agree, but there's simultaneously the Zack/Denzel flash too -- and since Zack wasn't like a son to Cloud and Denzel isn't a mentor to him, we really can't just assume one parallel is meant to be wholesale (another female he's in love with, and, thus, the same role in his life as the first) while the other is meant to be less specific (another male he cares about, but with a different role in his life than the first).

well, you can think of it like he is zack's living legacy, denzel may someday be his. CIIIIIRCLE OF LAAAAAAAAAAAAIF and whatnot. i mean, think about how he thought of zack protecting him in that moment from the shinra army or whatever they decided it was nowadays, and denzel was filling the role he had in the past: now he is the one protecting someone who can't really protect himself.

man im deep.

 

[Dashell]

Come on, people, stand up!

You missed one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DStVJeqHvUY#t=3m11s

i mean, think about how he thought of zack protecting him in that moment from the shinra army or whatever they decided it was nowadays

It's going to be a breed of wild chocobos by next installment, calling it.


But yeah deep and I don't think that's quite what they were going for, interesting though.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

well, you can think of it like he is zack's living legacy, denzel may someday be his. CIIIIIRCLE OF LAAAAAAAAAAAAIF and whatnot. i mean, think about how he thought of zack protecting him in that moment from the shinra army or whatever they decided it was nowadays, and denzel was filling the role he had in the past: now he is the one protecting someone who can't really protect himself.

man im deep.

Sure, I can see that (great observation, btw), but that still leaves Zack and Denzel in different roles, while the suggested reading has us take Aerith and Tifa as being in the same.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Sure, I can see that (great observation, btw), but that still leaves Zack and Denzel in different roles, while the suggested reading has us take Aerith and Tifa as being in the same.

okay well think about this:

both are/were girls he was interested in and both were going to die: however, at this point in time he's not taking a passive role/mind controlled role and trying to kill Tifa like he had with Aerith, he's taking another more proactive role of protector. so while it's not exactly the same thing as he had with denzel, it's similar in that he now realizes he isn't being mindfucked into being slightly more active than a carrot, so he can actually protect Tifa/Denzel

HMMM? HMM?

 

[Dana Scully]

I'm a bit late but

AWESOME TIFA CHARACTER DISCUSSION

I agree with a lot that's been said but I'm too lazy to quote it all so I'll just summarize: I think a lot of people forget just how many issues Tifa really has, because Cloud's so damn crazy it kind of blinds you to everyone else's crazy.

I mean, this is a woman who was so desperate for revenge she became a terrorist and was willing to blow up innocent people for a chance to hit back at Shinra. And you guys have already covered her own issues with Nibelheim/not willing to face the truth/possibly questioning her own sanity/insecurity.

People say that the lifestream scene is the defining moment of Cloud's character or the Cloti relationship, but imo it's more defining for Tifa than for anyone else. She manages to get over her own fucked up issues and pull herself together enough that she not only helps Cloud but herself as well.

Which is one of the reasons why OG Tifa is one of my alltime fave characters.

Honestly I hope that if there's another Compilation entry it has Tifa she turns into a full blown Mama Bear and rips shit up.

 

[Joker]

First off, high five for Zee for being awesome and making excellent points and srsly pulling me over to the "yeah, something was going on between Cloud and Aerith" camp And a second high five for calling Vendel's virginity into question, although it nets -1 LTD respect points because you're not supposed to point out the obvious when it's really mean like that.

I like how you think.

I personally always thought the "words aren't the only way" line followed by the classic sexy time pan and fade made it really unambiguous, even when I was 11 and playing the game for the first time.

Of course, I probably saw sexy time in everything by the time I was 11. Anyway, I don't think they were ever going for ambiguous. Based on that interview in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, I think they just felt a blatant tone didn't sit as right as a subtle one.

Finally, someone who appreciates my genius.

No, I mean that they make the actual ship very ambiguous. And while I certainly PREFER it that way, since I like it when games leave me wondering or thinking or basically just leave it open to the player's own interpretation, some stuff just doesn't add up. Again, I look at Cait Sith's fortune-telling. For a controlled-from-a-distance-by-a-guy-who-doesn't0know-the-party robot cat riding a stuffed moogle, he seems remarkably knowledgeable about what's going on insofar as relations within the party; in theory, by this point he should actually be more like Vincent or Cid or something, and not have a clue what's going on, since he didn't HEAR the Nibelheim flashback, and shouldn't know that Cloud has always had a thing for Tifa, and seriously hasn't seen ANY of the behavior of Tifa's that would indicate romantic feelings. And yet he says "poor Tifa", while predicting a fortune about Cloud and Aerith being destined for one another. He's been around QUITE long enough to pick up on some very solid Cloud x Aerith vibes, but how the fuck does he know about Tifa?

And again, Barret's chilling with Cloud, Tifa, and Co. with Marlene. If Cloud and Tifa were together, you'd think they'd get Barret to get his own place so he wouldn't be snickering at the breakfast table the next morning about how much of a screamer Tifa is.

But like I said, I definitely ship le Cloti, since I'm not clueless. But then again, I always liked Tifa better from the start, and never really came around to Aerith, since I thought they tried to force her on me just a liiiiittle too much. Maybe Tifa being a martial artist instead of the stereotypical mage was also a part of it, though...I dunno. Anyway, yes, Highwind scene is obv knocking boots, but the stuff that happens during the game is seriously contradictory enough to make me wonder whether or not the game was actually written by Kojima.

 

[Elisa Maza]

So.

Zee wants desperately for people to believe Cloud had hots for Aerith, Vendel does not want, their love-hate relationship that started a year ago with stalking the Clerith forum continues, Ariadne enjoys the off-topic and some people change sides. Nothing new from four versions ago (yes, I've read them all).

Get a fanart as a peace offering from me for now and I'll debate later.

 

[ForceStealer]

So what do you suppose they're...doing with their arms that is so hilarious?

 

[minimosey]

But then again, I always liked Tifa better from the start, and never really came around to Aerith, since I thought they tried to force her on me just a liiiiittle too much. Maybe Tifa being a martial artist instead of the stereotypical mage was also a part of it, though...I dunno.

Hilariously, the reverse was true for me. I liked Aerith better than Tifa because to me, she played to stereotypes, but also broke out of them, used them to her advantage, and did things on her own. And the ending of the original game left such a sour taste in my mouth because you have three female characters, but because one is dead and the other is optional, you only see one girl...having a damsel-in-distress moment when Cloud has to catch her from falling.

SCREW YOUR MALE PRIDE, CLOUD, BACK IN THE DRAG.



So yeah, I didn't like Tifa for a while for kind of the opposite thing. I like her now, but gotta admit I still prefer Aerith.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So what do you suppose they're...doing with they're arms that is so hilarious?

MAKING A SHADOW ELEPHANT

Zee wants desperately for people to believe Cloud had hots for Aerith, Vendel does not want, their love-hate relationship that started a year ago with stalking the Clerith forum continues, Ariadne enjoys the off-topic and some people change sides. Nothing new from four versions ago (yes, I've read them all).

1. NOTHIN RONG WITH CLOUD LIKIN AERITH, IT DON'T DIMINISH HIS FEELINGS FOR TEEFA
2. I NEVER SWITCH SIDES, NEVAR ABANDON MY SHIP~ (WHICH IS CLOTAY BTW)
3. CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL!

 

[Elisa Maza]

MAKING A SHADOW ELEPHANT

WAT.

1. NOTHIN RONG WITH CLOUD LIKIN AERITH, IT DON'T DIMINISH HIS FEELINGS FOR TEEFA
2. I NEVER SWITCH SIDES, NEVAR ABANDON MY SHIP~ (WHICH IS CLOTAY BTW)
3. CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL!

1. I DIDN'T SAY THE OPPOSITE. IT WAS A COMMENT ON THE SITUATION AT HAND.
2. WHAT IS A CLOTAY?
3.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

II think a lot of people forget just how many issues Tifa really has

Yes, and SE is among those people. Can you honestly remember the last time they explored Tifa's character in any significant way? Advent Children, FF7...

That's why I'm hoping her Dissidia 012 story *doesn't* center on Cloud, the girl needs to get her own character back.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

WAT.

SEARCH YO HEART LUKE U KNOW IT 2 BE TROO

1. I DIDN'T SAY THE OPPOSITE. IT WAS A COMMENT ON THE SITUATION AT HAND.
2. WHAT IS A CLOTAY?
3.

1. IDK I GOT THE IMPRESSION SHE JUST SAID 'OKAY THIS IS WHAT IM BASING SHIT OFF OF WITH MY INTERPRETATION HERE I GO'
2. THE AWESOME WAY TO SAY CLOTI. NOT TO BE CONFUSED BY CLITO WHICH IS THE RETARDED WAY TO SAY IT.
3. HELL YEAH

 

[Zee]

She didn't hide anything. She just found the receipt from after the fact and put it with the other receipts while trying to reassure herself that everything was okay.

I wasn't saying she did hide it, but she's trembling and her reaction is just like someone bracing themselves for the worst.

In any case, of course Cloud wasn't over her, but the question is in what sense he wasn't over her. All statements from official sources have been that it was his guilt he wasn't over, not a romantic longing.

Guilt is part of it, but it always struck me as an incredibly simplistic way to describe it (I've usually seen that used in character blurbs and such, which are in no way in depth insights to the character's motivations)

I mean:

She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got seperated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again.

Guilt is one thing, but saying the loss of Aeris tore his heart apart suggests another thing entirely.

Not really disagreeing with anything here, but the wolf only seems to vanish after Cloud forgives himself. Even after Aerith told him she didn't blame him, he was still saying stuff like, "See? I knew I'd be no help," and the wolf still appeared at the City of the Ancients too.

Of course, I'm not discounting that it was Aerith saying "I never blamed you" that moved him along to the forgiving himself bit; I'm just trying to clarify "out loud" in both our minds exactly when wolfy hit the ol' dusty trail.

No no, I agree that it really came down to Cloud forgiving himself, my point was as you said, Aeris needed to give him that push in realizing it. She's more the type to suggest something and let him figure it out on his own (I WANT TO MEET YOU CLOUD, OLOLOL)

I WISH I HAD MORE TIME TO RESPOND BUT I HAVE TO GO i apologize for the rushed response

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I think the problem with Aerith, as well as Zack to an extent, is that Cloud is never going to have closure. They were such influential parts of his life, Zack inspiring his dreams and Aerith being a close friend and love interest, and they died so suddenly. There's always going to be an empty "what if" sense concerning them that Cloud's will never fill. Now, if he moves on from that or not, YMMV, but that's how it is. I think Cloud mourns not just the loss of Aerith, but the knowledge that maybe there could have been something more than friendship between them if she'd lived, and maybe the battle with Sephiroth could have gone differently.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No, I mean that they make the actual ship very ambiguous. And while I certainly PREFER it that way, since I like it when games leave me wondering or thinking or basically just leave it open to the player's own interpretation, some stuff just doesn't add up. Again, I look at Cait Sith's fortune-telling. For a controlled-from-a-distance-by-a-guy-who-doesn't0know-the-party robot cat riding a stuffed moogle, he seems remarkably knowledgeable about what's going on insofar as relations within the party; in theory, by this point he should actually be more like Vincent or Cid or something, and not have a clue what's going on, since he didn't HEAR the Nibelheim flashback, and shouldn't know that Cloud has always had a thing for Tifa, and seriously hasn't seen ANY of the behavior of Tifa's that would indicate romantic feelings. And yet he says "poor Tifa", while predicting a fortune about Cloud and Aerith being destined for one another. He's been around QUITE long enough to pick up on some very solid Cloud x Aerith vibes, but how the fuck does he know about Tifa?

Well, you answered that question yourself. If he's picked up on what he feels are legitimate signs of compatibility between Cloud and Aerith then he would just as easily be in a position to notice Tifa's affection for Cloud. Certainly everyone else notices.

In any event, even the Ultimania Omega for VII said not to take Cait Sith's predictions too seriously. He predicts a wedding for Aerith only for her to be summarily executed. Not really that reliable.

While I get that you're looking at it metatextually, there's two conclusions you could draw while doing so: 1) that this was the writer making a face-value statement about a realized, active relationship between Cloud and Aerith that otherwise goes undepicted, or 2) that the writer was setting the player up to make the shock of Aerith's death even shockier.

The second possibility is what I take from it, given Aerith dies almost immediately afterward (probably no more than an hour later for most people), and that the rest of that scene with Cait Sith (his "sacrifice") is also part of setting the player up for the shock of a real, meaningful death.

And again, Barret's chilling with Cloud, Tifa, and Co. with Marlene. If Cloud and Tifa were together, you'd think they'd get Barret to get his own place so he wouldn't be snickering at the breakfast table the next morning about how much of a screamer Tifa is.

But Barret only helps them build what Case of Barret calls their (Cloud and Tifa's) home before moseying off within a week. Sure, he stuck with them for a few months until their home and restaurant were ready, but it kind of makes sense that he didn't immediately shuffle off. They were all clinging together for survival in a post-apocalyptic world until a more stable, comfortable environment had been established.

But like I said, I definitely ship le Cloti, since I'm not clueless. But then again, I always liked Tifa better from the start, and never really came around to Aerith, since I thought they tried to force her on me just a liiiiittle too much. Maybe Tifa being a martial artist instead of the stereotypical mage was also a part of it, though...I dunno.

I liked Tifa better from the start too. Not just 'cause she's hotter overall (though Aerith beats her in the hips department), but Aerith's personality didn't appeal to me as much back then.

Which is funny, because today I'm engaged to a chick who is far more like Aerith than Tifa, both in personality and physically (yes, in that way), and who I feel is perfect for me. Whereas my ex was more like Tifa both in personality and physically (yes, in that way).

I guess what I needed changed over time -- or at least my understanding of what I needed. Makes me wonder how I would view the love triangle if I were playing FFVII for the first time now.

Anyway, yes, Highwind scene is obv knocking boots, but the stuff that happens during the game is seriously contradictory enough to make me wonder whether or not the game was actually written by Kojima.

That's harsh.

But I don't think it seems contradictory if you assume that KNojima was trying to mislead the player a few times. It makes a brilliant kind of sense when you take things like how they set us up for Aerith's death into account.

I wasn't saying she did hide it, but she's trembling and her reaction is just like someone bracing themselves for the worst.

Sorry I misunderstood. That's what I thought you meant when you said "But given his actions in CoT and AC, it's pretty clear he's not over Aeris -- even Tifa recognizes this, to the point where she wants to hide the delivery for flowers to her grave."

Guilt is part of it, but it always struck me as an incredibly simplistic way to describe it (I've usually seen that used in character blurbs and such, which are in no way in depth insights to the character's motivations)

I mean:

She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got seperated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again.

Guilt is one thing, but saying the loss of Aeris tore his heart apart suggests another thing entirely.

Not necessarily. "Regret" is in that description, and we know he blames himself for her death. It's entirely reasonable to think he would be torn up over any of his companions dying if he blamed himself.

I'm not saying he's not tore up, just that it's not inherently romantic that he is, and it doesn't have to suggest it.

 

[Joker]

Ah, but that's just it! Cait Sith/Reeve hasn't been around long enough to see the obviously Cloti shit that happens long before they meet him. Most of the stuff that happens within the love triangle between meeting him and Aerith running off are rather decidedly pro-Aerith As in, there's nothing that is pro-Tifa, and the default game script takes you down the Aerith date path; there's also Gongaga, which is a big Aerith-y deal. Nibelheim is surprisingly devoid of anything with Tifa, which I never understood =/

No, I meant that it's so "wait what"-ish that Kojima would be proud. XD Wasn't a dig, as I fuckin' love MGS

Spoiler: example

would be finding out the tanker incident in MGS2 was a setup by the Patriots to construct Arsenal Gear in order to filter information so that they could tighten their control on the world, or any of the other NUMEROUS mindfucks and plot twists MGS is known for. XD

 

[Dashell]

Nojima, not Kojima

 

[ForceStealer]

...I think he meant Kojima? I can't believe I never noticed the name similarity there

 

[Dashell]

Oh I assumed he was talking about Nojima XD

carry on

 

[Joker]

Metal Gear Solid is a product of Hideo Kojima.

 

[Max Payne]

FISSION MAILED

 

[Dashell]

DON'T JUDGE ME