New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Zee]

Okay... I'm... not following that one...

what does Spiderman riding a bike made of web have to do with the police?

Do people just not know how to use google anymore? A quick search of fuck da police would have probably saved you some embarrassment here.

Okay, THIS seriously bugs me. What is this supposed to mean anyway? If Cloud wants to unfreeze her smile, wouldn't that mean he didn't want her smiling in the first place? He wants her to frown?

It's been a while, but when they talk of unfreezing her smile it's because Sephiroth and his eeeeevilness are preventing Aeris & Holy from moving. Sort of like, they wanted to help finish what she started and bring her peace. That's what I took from it anyway.

Also I dislike the whole "opposites attract" thing and I don't think Cloud and Aeris were total opposites anyway, so.

 

[Splintered]

After Advent Children came out, it just inflamed the entire debate all over again, because to Cleris fans, Cloud seems to abandon Tifa and his home because of guilt over Aeris's death, and because of his geostigma. Additionally, Cloud and Aeris seem to have a more functional relationship than Cloud and Tifa, because although Cloud and Tifa are seen together a lot, they don't seem to understand each other as well as Cloud and Aeris.

I think the major problem with is that there's a strong not only misinterpretation of Cloud/Tifa relationship, but Cloud/Aerith as well.

Cloud/Aerith, imo, definitely had strong degrees of bittersweetness in those scenes, but they did not have a functional romantic relationship. It's even up in the air if they interacted before that, and imo, it seems that Aerith leaving the church symbolized that he'll be okay without her.

Also, even without going on how Cloud/Tifa is dysfunctional/functional, the story presents that what Cloud is doing is harmful, and that he needs to fix it. That makes the problems withing Cloud/Tifa an aberration, and that him leaving the family something that he needed to fix, and presumably did fix (otherwise I just wasted an hour and half of my fucking life).

The theme is for the story not to let your past mess up what you have now. He let Aerith turn into a figure of guilt, he let Zack's pride/sword rust (hurr durr), and he left alone Tifa and two kids he was helping raise. Then he overcame them.

In the game, Cloud has a flashback where he visits his mother. She asks him if he has a girlfriend. He replies no. She continues, saying that he should have a girlfriend that is older than him to take care of him. Aerith is one year older than Cloud in FF7 and Tifa is younger

Honestly, red herring. I think one of the reasons why Aerith's death was such a punch in the gut is because there are all these "clues" and in the end they didn't matter.

Also, the idea of her having an older girlfriend is to take care of him. She says this explicitly. Aerith might be older, but it's Tifa that looks after him.


Thaaat said.

I can't be the only one who thinks that the Aerith death had motivated Cloud almost more than anything in Final Fantasy. And that there was definitely something special about it. I dunno, it seemed a huge crux of the game was about this.

 

[Roger]

Not that it matters but.

Complete personality and appearance opposite: Zack Fair (his eyes are darker shade, and his hair is black--defs Clack proof)

Black hair and a darker shade of blue eyes (supposedly) does not equal complete opposite in appearance. Cloud and Zack were nigh identical in appearance, it's almost as if Zack is nothing but a piece of early Cloud concept art put to some minor use.

 

[ForceStealer]

Actually Angeal was taken from early Cloud designs. Cloud was originally going to have slicked back black hair to contrast Sephiroth's silver. But Zack and Cloud's similarities were probably no accident.

 

[Tifabelle]

iirc, wasn't Cloud originally supposed to have black hair? But they changed it to be more contrasting to Sephiroth's silver hair... because, you know, blonde is the opposite of silver?

I think Cloud and Zack fundamentally don't look that different from each other except for the hair color/style.

Personality-wise, they are of course opposites, but then wasn't that the point? Even when Cloud was "Zackified" he still didn't act very Zack-like. Certain traits he exhibited, sure, but Cloud was never upbeat as Zack.

Also I dislike the whole "opposites attract" thing and I don't think Cloud and Aeris were total opposites anyway, so.

They weren't total opposites, but they didn't have many similarities either.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

They weren't total opposites, but they didn't have many similarities either.

let's see... both are very determined people, both grew up with single mothers (UNLESS CLOUD'S DAD WAS THERE WHEN HE WAS YOUNGER AND WE NEVER SAW HIM IDFK), both hide their problems, albeit in different ways, both can take care of themselves, and both had something big from their past they had a difficult time accepting (being a Cetra and not being a SOLDIER when he got back to Nibelheim).

I AM SURE I COULD THINK OF MORE BUT MY LUNCH BREAK IS ONLY SO LONG :C

 

[Roger]

Actually Angeal was taken from early Cloud designs. Cloud was originally going to have slicked back black hair to contrast Sephiroth's silver. But Zack and Cloud's similarities were probably no accident.

Spoiler

Couln't find the black hair artwork but his hairstyle was gonna be just like Zack.

 

[Zee]

Two socially awkward people used as lab rats by the same guy in their youth, who are both the bane of the bad guy's existence have more than enough fuel to melt the ice imo. They don't have an overabundance of similarities, but I like that. There should be a healthy balance between being too much like someone and having zilch in common with them.

In the game, Cloud has a flashback where he visits his mother. She asks him if he has a girlfriend. He replies no. She continues, saying that he should have a girlfriend that is older than him to take care of him. Aerith is one year older than Cloud in FF7 and Tifa is younger

I think there's just waaaay too much stock put into this line in general. She's fussing over him in the usual mom way. What teenage kid is going to want his mom to pick out a type of girl for him?

I can't be the only one who thinks that the Aerith death had motivated Cloud almost more than anything in Final Fantasy. And that there was definitely something special about it. I dunno, it seemed a huge crux of the game was about this.

I agree, Aeris' death was pretty much the main motivator, for both Cloud and the audience. The whole point of her death was that it wasn't just a hum-ho "we have to save the day cause we're the heroes" it was "MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA. YOU KILLED MY CETRA. PREPARE TO DIE."

 

[Tifabelle]

Re: Aerith/Cloud similarties. I thought we were talking about personality. They both were used as lab rats, both had single mothers, etc. Those aren't personality traits, they're just facts about their experiences. I mean, like I said, there are similarities to be found within their personalities, but to me, in general they weren't much alike.

But again... you could take a many pairs of characters from any media, compare them, and find similarities. There are always going to be crossovers of traits between two people. I wouldn't say Cloud is anything like Sephiroth, but I bet if I actually cared to look, I could find similarities.

 

[Splintered]

Where's the thread where it talked about their personal stories again?

Because Aerith and Cloud are definitely opposites in that regards. Actually it would be Sephiroth-Cloud-Aerith. As is, FFVII is a coming of age/find yourself story.

Aerith's story is the natural way, she finds out who she is as an Ancient, what it means to her, what her role is, and she accepts it. Sephiroth and Cloud are perversions of this cliche, everything who they think they are is based off of lies and meddling.

It just so happens that once Aerith has found who she is, she dies. And once Cloud and Sephiroth found themselves in the lies- bad things happened.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud and Aerith's stories are more mirrors of each other- one wants to be normal but isn't, one thinks he's something he's not. Both live a lie, both accept and move beyond the lie and make great things happen.

Sephiroth is again the dark twisted version of that.

I disagree that Aerith is Cloud's main motivator. The audience, definitely. Cloud, though, well, yeah, her death is a major motivator, but his mom, his hometown, nearly everything else he ever held dear, skewering him, nearly killing Tifa, Cloud already has a lot of motivation for wanting Sephy dead, so much so he's talking of it right after you find out he's still alive (And in cut content, possibly right after the first mission!). Her demise is a more personal reason for everyone else to want him dead apart from BDHness. But Cloud (And Tifa, while we're at it) already have a very big personal reason to make damn sure he's dead.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Re: Aerith/Cloud similarties. I thought we were talking about personality. They both were used as lab rats, both had single mothers, etc. Those aren't personality traits, they're just facts about their experiences. I mean, like I said, there are similarities to be found within their personalities, but to me, in general they weren't much alike.

but at the same time, they're not COMPLETE OPPOSITES! like some romantic arguments reason.

Same deal as people who claim Cloud and Tifa could never work out because they're too similar. One, there are enough differences to make the compatible as a couple and two, you tend to get along with people who are more similar than you compared to dissimilar.

 

[tibiquera]

In the game, Cloud has a flashback where he visits his mother. She asks him if he has a girlfriend. He replies no. She continues, saying that he should have a girlfriend that is older than him to take care of him. Aerith is one year older than Cloud in FF7 and Tifa is younger

I think there's just waaaay too much stock put into this line in general. She's fussing over him in the usual mom way. What teenage kid is going to want his mom to pick out a type of girl for him?

Well, I kinda wondered about that part last time I played the game. After all, he's at Aeris's house, shortly after meeting her when he has this flashback. And out of everything his mom said, that was the only thing he remembered.

It's true he has that flashback because he's remembering the last time he slept in a proper bed, but seeing how well he seemed to be getting with Aeris (and I believe the first time in his life a girl showed real interest in him) is it possible he was kinda relating that conversation to Aeris?

 

[Vendel]

Having a little discussion with a clerith. And of course it didn't take long for the Tifa character assassination to begin.

Tifa is also shy, introverted and pessimistic

Funny how some of our clerith friends seem to think being a pessimist is one of Tifa's defining personality traits.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Wat? I thought Tifa was defined in official materials going all the way back to the fucking booklet that came with the game as "bright and optimistic." Where do people get this shit?

 

[Elisa Maza]

Umm... she wears black?

Seriously, though, I think it's from ACC. She does tell Cloud that if they work together, they can sort their problems, showing her optimism, but she gets low easily. Of course, people tend to forget that it was a moment of crisis, things were REALLY bad and Cloud had delivered a blow by leaving.

Tifa is optimistic and a fighter, but not someone detached from reality. Had she been perky during a time like this, she'd be crazy, or something.

Also, since the two girls had many differences, Aerith, with her awful bright pink colour is the optimist, while "the other woman", who wears monochrome MUST be a pessimist, yes, YES???

... I tried.

 

[Tifabelle]

Being sad and being pessimistic are two different things. An optimistic person can still experience sadness - you know, like when your man disappears for a couple weeks.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Exactly, hence I say again at Tifa being called a pessimist... wat?!

 

[Zee]

Also, since the two girls had many differences, Aerith, with her awful bright pink colour is the optimist, while "the other woman", who wears monochrome MUST be a pessimist, yes, YES???

maybe that bitch should wear some pastels if she wants to be taken seriously

goddamn i hate it when things are not color coded for my convenience

But seriously being optimistic doesn't mean you have to be Rikku/Selphie/Vanille levels of sugar, rainbows, and bubblegum. It just means you have a glass half full outlook on life.

 

[Joker]

Having a little discussion with a clerith. And of course it didn't take long for the Tifa character assassination to begin.

How is that character assassination, exactly?

 

[Vendel]

How is that character assassination, exactly?

I'm sorry if I didn't post the entire exchange. It went on for some length. But I posted exactly what I was talking about.

Funny how some of our clerith friends seem to think being a pessimist is one of Tifa's defining personality traits.

Tifa is not Debbie Downer.

 

[Ryushikaze]

In fact, one of her defining character traits, so much so that they emphasized it in Dissidia- is her trust and optimism without being unrealistic.
Though it's still a bit of an overstatement to call that 'character assassination' though it is a misunderstanding of the character, possibly willful.
Let me guess- Youtube?

 

[Vendel]

In fact, one of her defining character traits, so much so that they emphasized it in Dissidia- is her trust and optimism without being unrealistic.
Though it's still a bit of an overstatement to call that 'character assassination' though it is a misunderstanding of the character, possibly willful.

A reoccurring theme in her and Cloud's 10th Anv. profiles is how Tifa faces reality while Cloud wallows in the past.

So why isn't Cloud ever described as pessimistic? Why is it only Tifa who is seen by some as the pessimist of FFVII? It's a cheap attack against her character. The "ignored/bullied Cloud as a child" and "Tifa is a bitchy nag" can't be far behind.

Let me guess- Youtube?

Pretty much. It was birthed from youtube.

 

[Winter]

wow, pointless arguments on youtube!

thank god we have the noble knight vendel to right these people's wrongs good lord what would we DO without him

 

[Tir McDohl]

Well y'know, one man's pointless is another man's... good timey type activity...?

I don't think they'd talk to him if they didn't want to, anyway.