New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Dashell]

wow, pointless arguments on youtube!

The LTD as a whole is pretty pointless no matter where you bring it up

In fact, one of her defining character traits, so much so that they emphasized it in Dissidia- is her trust and optimism without being unrealistic.

CONTRADICTION

 

[OneWingedDemon]

it was "MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA. YOU KILLED MY CETRA. PREPARE TO DIE."

Can’t agree with this. FFVII is not a simple revenge story. Undoubtedly Aeris’ death is a big moment for both Cloud and the audience, but Cloud does not seek Sephiroth because he killed Aeris.

Cloud has a score to settle with him because Sephiroth has robbed him of not only those he loves, but his own self and identity. Sephiroth tries to erase Cloud Strife himself from existence. He does this by dismissing Cloud’s pain as an illusion. “You are a puppet,” he says and tries to convince Cloud that not only is what he remembers a lie, but that Cloud himself is a lie.

Let us not forget that Sephiroth’s whole vendetta against Cloud is a matter of pride (sure, Cloud et al are also obstacles to his godhood, but his obsession with Cloud stems from this). His goal is not to simply kill people Cloud cares for. No, this wouldn’t serve him. It doesn’t explain why he tries to manipulate Cloud. It’s not enough. Sephiroth tries to reduce Cloud to nothing before he himself can become something again: a god. Because Cloud robbed him of his specialness first and Sephiroth is kind of a narcissistic bitch.

The reason he tries to get Cloud to kill her is not because Cloud cares for her and he’ll be devastated. It’s to prove to Cloud that he has no will, no strength. Hence the dialogue that follows Aeris’ death is about Cloud, not Aeris. Cloud demands recognition and acknowledgment (“what about my pain&#8221 after Sephiroth dismisses him and rambles on about HIS plans. Not only that, but Sephiroth reduces Aeris too to a mere cog in his greater machine (“soon the girl will become part of the Planet’s energy blah blah blah…part of me&#8221. And when Cloud does that, Sephiroth turns and goes “huh? But Cloud…you’re nothing, you’re a puppet, you have no wants and desires and feelings. Silly boy”.

Framing Aeris’ death withiin this powerplay between him and Cloud is significant. Not to say that Aeris is not a dear friend or to dismiss whatever attachment the audience may have, but this speaks volumes with regard to what Aeris’ death is to the entire narrative.

Sephiroth’s manipulation and Cloud’s doubt and insecurities culminate in Aeris’ death. What she is for Cloud, is the last straw. A failure resulting from Cloud’s previous failures against Sephiroth. The reason he makes her, after all, the symbol of his collective failures.

So no, Aeris is not the reason Cloud fights Sephiroth. Someone dear who was lost because of his stupid weakness, yes, but not the reason of the epic obsessive relationship between Seph & Cloud.
That shit goes all the way back to Nibelheim and Cloud’s inherent lack of self-worth and that very personal memory he has that Sephiroth essentially robs him of.

 

[Dashell]

I agree to a certain extent, Aerith isn't THE reason but she is A reason.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I don't think OWD ever said something different...? o.O

 

[Dashell]

Oh...

well...

you know there was a lot of text there... and... I MIGHT have just... kinda... read the last sentence or something...

you know how it is...

 

[Elisa Maza]

Shhh, 's okay, Q. *pats*




j/k ilu.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

OWD, might I say that was a kickass post that was totally wasted in this particular thread. I have seen the sentiments you conveyed there spoken before, but rarely as well. Bravo.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

The problem with saying that Cloud is driven by a simple "you killed Aeris, therefore I will kill you" is that it does the entire game a disservice and completely dismisses the importance of his whole fucking identity crisis and Sephiroth's role in that.

 

[Dashell]

Yes, now that I've read it, it's a really good post. I always hate it when people try to make every little thing about the LT. There's a much bigger story at play. Hence I don't believe "What about us? What are we supposed to do?" is about Cloud and Aerith. It's about Cloud and his friends... which the story revolves around. Sephiroth did NOT kill Aerith to get at Cloud, he did it because she was in the way and more importantly, because he could. Cloud was chasing Seph long before Aerith died.

It's amazing how often people forget that.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Not to mention the entire hometown destroyed and canon love interest nearly killed that all happened way before that. Cloud has lots and lots of reasons to kill Sephiroth. Aerith is a good reason, but hardly the first, let alone the only.

 

[ForceStealer]

Also not to mention that, as Cloud says, "I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth, I was being summoned by Sephiroth." For the first half of the game at least, Cloud likely would have gone after Sephiroth even if he had just been going around planting flowers.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Also not to mention that, as Cloud says, "I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth, I was being summoned by Sephiroth." For the first half of the game at least, Cloud likely would have gone after Sephiroth even if he had just been going around planting flowers.

Well, Cloud was being summoned, but he was so easy to summon because he had his own reasons to want to find Sephiroth, he could be lead along into doing Sephy's will while thinking it was his own idea because it was so plausible. That's part of what makes the puppet line and the identity crisis later so effective.

 

[Celes Chere]

You know, I don't think it should be treated like a competition about who Cloud cares about more here. Aerith and Zack were people he shared a very close bond with. Tifa being his love interest (imo) doesn't set her above the others. I mean you have your best friends and your boyfriend/girlfriend - I think it is possible to care about them equally, especially in this situation (revenge). Cloud's not the type to choose a person over another, at least from what I've seen.

 

[ForceStealer]

Definitely - as we've said before, Cloud would have fought just as hard for Cid, Vincent, Red, or anyone else Sephiroth might have killed (save Cait Sith). It's just the kind of guy he is.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Definitely - as we've said before, Cloud would have fought just as hard for Cid, Vincent, Red, or anyone else Sephiroth might have killed (save Cait Sith). It's just the kind of guy he is.

and somehow this leads me back into the idea that if cait sith was a self-sacrificing spy who was not a robot, the party is a bunch of dicks.

 

[Zee]

lol I forgot that part in my post where I said Cloud was fighting for Aeris and only Aeris

wait, except I didn't

Sephiroth’s manipulation and Cloud’s doubt and insecurities culminate in Aeris’ death. What she is for Cloud, is the last straw. A failure resulting from Cloud’s previous failures against Sephiroth.

yes, but:

So no, Aeris is not the reason Cloud fights Sephiroth

No. Not the sole reason, but a huge reason nonetheless.

You know, I don't think it should be treated like a competition about who Cloud cares about more here. Aerith and Zack were people he shared a very close bond with. Tifa being his love interest (imo) doesn't set her above the others.

I wish I could thank posts multiple times.

 

[Ryushikaze]

lol I forgot that part in my post where I said Cloud was fighting for Aeris and only Aeris

wait, except I didn't

I agree, Aeris' death was pretty much the main motivator, for both Cloud and the audience. The whole point of her death was that it wasn't just a hum-ho "we have to save the day cause we're the heroes" it was "MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA. YOU KILLED MY CETRA. PREPARE TO DIE."

You said it was the main motivator. That was what OWD's post was responding to. Her argument is that it is not the main motivator, that while it is a motivator, and a big one, it's not the primary one.

 

[Vendel]

You know, I don't think it should be treated like a competition about who Cloud cares about more here. Aerith and Zack were people he shared a very close bond with. Tifa being his love interest (imo) doesn't set her above the others. I mean you have your best friends and your boyfriend/girlfriend - I think it is possible to care about them equally, especially in this situation (revenge). Cloud's not the type to choose a person over another, at least from what I've seen.

I have to disagree. Cloud sets Tifa above anyone else by his thoughts and actions. From the time he was 8 until he left for soldier he basically stalked the girl from a distance. And even when he came back as a trooper two years later Tifa is still the one indirectly forcing his actions. Hell even Zack noticed that Cloud was acting strange. And Cloud didn't say anything. Bros before Hoes?

Even the beginning of FFVII where Cloud is a headcase Tifa still has influence over him (even though he didn't know why at the time). She gets him to stay with AVALANCHE. And of course we have the (paraphrased)"It's your opinion that matters Tifa" and the LS sequence. We also know Tifa is his personal reason for saving the planet.

And after defeating Sephy Cloud didn't tell Barret he can succeed because he has him.

The point is, Cloud cares about his friends (living and dead). He very much cares about Marlene and Denzel. But he needs Tifa.

 

[Roger]

I have to disagree. Cloud sets Tifa above anyone else by his thoughts and actions. From the time he was 8 until he left for soldier he basically stalked the girl from a distance. And even when he came back as a trooper two years later Tifa is still the one indirectly forcing his actions. Hell even Zack noticed that Cloud was acting strange. And Cloud didn't say anything. Bros before Hoes?

Even the beginning of FFVII where Cloud is a headcase Tifa still has influence over him (even though he didn't know why at the time). She gets him to stay with AVALANCHE. And of course we have the (paraphrased)"It's your opinion that matters Tifa" and the LS sequence. We also know Tifa is his personal reason for saving the planet.

And after defeating Sephy Cloud didn't tell Barret he can succeed because he has him.

The point is, Cloud cares about his friends (living and dead). He very much cares about Marlene and Denzel. But he needs Tifa.

I actually think he comparatively left her alone after that his dad (being the major and all) told him off for the sake of not chancing her finding out what happened that day, getting in fights instead. Question is just how many years he had been stalking her by the time he was 8.

But I gotta throw in a vote for his mother too. I think his mother getting killed was a pretty important reason. It was his freaking mother.

So yeah Aerith was a huge reason, amids several huge reasons.

 

[Dashell]

Just double checking something

The only quote that ever said Cloud was Tifa's ideal love turned out to be fake right? There isn't two quotes that say he's his ideal love is there? Someone told me there's one from DoC, but I don't remember it... but if there iS.. HELLO

 

[Celes Chere]

Cloud sets Tifa above anyone else by his thoughts and actions.

Ehh, I don't think so. I believe that Tifa the most important woman in his life, hence why I consider them to be a couple. I think that he loves her - they share a bond that no one else does with him. Does that mean he's going to put her above his friends or choose her over his friends? No way, that's just silly. I know I shouldn't be comparing a game to real life, but a person that ditches their friends for their girlfriend/boyfriend is just a dick. And Cloud is a dick, but not that much of one. I think it is quite possible to love someone and still have the same strong connection for a friend, it's just a different kind of love. An unromantic kind... it doesn't make it less important though. Lol, I don't believe that he stalked Tifa. He was dedicated to the promise, of impressing her, becoming a stronger and better person but he wasn't creepy/stalkery about it. He had a dream/goal/ambition and was dedicated to it. That's different than stalking. It's kind of a touchy subject for Cloud, and he's extremely insecure. Of course he didn't say anything. =P Oh, and Tifa isn't a ho so... it doesn't apply to her. BD

Yeah, Tifa has an influence over him, but so do Zack (he stole his persona for goodness sake) and Aerith. I'm just saying that Cloud would not pick sides when it comes to avenging someone. Cloud did not just fight for Tifa, he fought for his deceased friends and don't forget about his Mother and hometown. I don't believe one thing out weighs the other in that type of situation. It's not like he's thinking "Well I care about Tifa the most so fuck the rest".

He needs Tifa, but he needs other people as well. Re watch ACC, it wasn't just Tifa that helped Cloud. He needed Tifa's words, Aerith's reassurance, Zack's encouragement, and Vincent as well with the whole "I'm going to try" thing.

 

[Fighter]

Aerith's death has a huge impact on Cloud's character arc (although I would argue more post ffvii). But in the grand scheme of his relationship with Sephiroth she's just a "one more thing" that he does to Cloud, albeit very symbolic of a lot of aspects of that relationship. The rivalry however is established well before that.

 

[Joker]

O god I find myself liking and agreeing with one of Vendel's posts

someone help

 

[I Am Not Me]

But I gotta throw in a vote for his mother too. I think his mother getting killed was a pretty important reason. It was his freaking mother.

This.

Frankly, I just hate how everyone makes a big deal out of Aerith's death being Cloud's main motivator for killing Sephiroth. It was tragic, yes. It was sad, yes. But Aerith wasn't the only thing Cloud ever knew in the world. Aerith wasn't the only thing Sephiroth destroyed.

As a super-AZN, I have to say that family ties are really important to me. Japan has this mindset as well. I know that Cloud's mother didn't get enough mention as she's supposed to. Heck, they never even mentioned her beyond the flashbacks. I kind of didn't mind it, as most protagonists never even have parents (they're mostly orphans). But I think deep inside, Cloud still has his mother in his heart.

In a way, I think Cloud projected his mother onto Aerith. She's described as a mother figure to him and the planet, and he even calls her 'mother', right? By witnessing her death, and failing to protect her, he sees his own failure to save his mother in the situation, and so feels that way.

I say Aerith is the trigger. Like, the final straw. The weight of everything Cloud lost came crashing down on him at the moment of her death. But Aerith isn't the NUMBER ONE SUPER DUPER MAIN REASON THAT CLOUD WANTS TO KILL SEPHIROTH. Avenging her was part of the plan. Save the planet, get revenge for everything that's been lost, avenge Aerith--this comes with killing Sephiroth once and for all.

Let's not forget that AVALANCHE as well fought for the planet and Aerith's death. It wasn't just Cloud. We can even say that her death became their main motivator. I mean, most of their troubles came from Shinra. They have no reason to kill Sephiroth other than to save the planet. Even then, they were just tagging along Cloud chasing him even before Aerith died.

Just a rant. Aerith isn't everything to Cloud, gaiz. Cloud had other losses, other pains. He has a whole list of legit reasons to kill Sephiroth. Aerith's death was the trigger, not the main motivator much less the only.

I love Aerith, but let's not put her on a pedestal. Just saying.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

well, technically, he did avenge his mom, nibelheim and almost killing tifa already by totally throwing sephy into a nuclear goddamn reactor and killing him dead.

so i can understand the view that she would totally be his motivator for killing him again because the bro is a fucking zombie he forgot to double tap. and that's why his bud aerith died