New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Dashell]

She then proposes the payment be a date. He doesn't say anything, but he makes some weird gesture I don't remember.

Someone once pointed it out to me that it looks like he's wagging his finger like saying she's naughty or something

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I always thought he was rubbing his fingers together in a "No, I need money..." type gesture, then doing it anyway.

 

[Celes Chere]

I just want to say, no offense to anyone, but if I had the choice to save Rob or save one of my friends, I'd probably go for Rob.

Yikes! I'd rather kill myself then have to choose between friends or lover. Because they both mean the same amount. And I do love my friends it's just a different kind afagopdhg I find it impossible to choose between people rike dat but I might be weird 8D
anyway
I think family, friends, love interest are ALL the main reason for Cloud. It can't be narrowed down to just one person.

 

[Dashell]

I'd rather kill myself then have to choose between friends or lover

Okay well see, this wasn't an option before If this was an option, yes I'd do this.

EDIT
and I Just want to point out I WOULD NOT EVER WANT TO BE IN THAT SITUATION! But I was, that's probably what I'd do, but then again, who knows? It might be one of those cross that bridge when we get there things.

EDIT2:

I think family, friends, love interest are ALL the main reason for Cloud. It can't be narrowed down to just one person.

Well of course
But I think some do have more impact than others.

 

[Zee]

@que quoting my post:

>mfw main means only now

also i'm pretty sure cloud knows what a date is and what that entails so
short of flashing her boobs aeris made her intentions pretty clear

i mean the point at which she's arm in arm with him asking about their future stars and crap i'm sure a light bulb went on

 

[Dashell]

@que quoting my post:

>mfw main means only now

Except I thought we were saying that Aerith was not the main reason and you were saying she was?

and yes "main reason" would imply that's the ONLY important one...

I mean you went from "main reason" to "an important one"... and an important one would imply there's other important reasons where as main reason would imply that's the only important one. I don't think anyone, not even OWD would disagree with her being an important reason. That wasn't the issue.

EDIT:

I agree, Aeris' death was pretty much the main motivator, for both Cloud and the audience. The whole point of her death was that it wasn't just a hum-ho "we have to save the day cause we're the heroes" it was "MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA. YOU KILLED MY CETRA. PREPARE TO DIE."

I repeat:

it was "MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA. YOU KILLED MY CETRA. PREPARE TO DIE."

i'm not saying she is the ~end all be all~ reason, i'm just saying she was an important one

Saying she's the main reason would imply that she's the most important one, but saying "an important one" implies there's other important reasons. So is she the MAIN reason, or just an important one among other important ones?

 

[Lord Noctis]

Regarding a situation where you had to choose between a loved one or a friend I imagine I would probably freeze up if I'm being honest.

 

[Winter]

also i'm pretty sure cloud knows what a date is and what that entails so
short of flashing her boobs aeris made her intentions pretty clear

i mean the point at which she's arm in arm with him asking about their future stars and crap i'm sure a light bulb went on

no

aeris is too stupid to know the difference between cloud and zack
and cloud is too stupid to know when a girl is coming onto him

this is a beautiful love story between two autistic people

 

[Ryushikaze]

Zee, I repeat that you initiall said Aerith was the 'main reason.'

In bold and ALLCAPS for attention grabbing, I shall state, plainly and simply-
PEOPLE ARE RESPONDING TO YOU SAYING 'THE MAIN'. EVEN IF SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING 'ONLY', SEVERAL OTHERS ARE ASKING YOU TO ADDRESS YOUR INITIAL CLAIM OF HER BEING THE PRIMARY REASON. YOU HAVE APPARENTLY IGNORED SEVERAL PEOPLE ASKING FOR YOUR CLARIFICATION ON THIS MATTER.

 

[Zee]

Except I thought we were saying that Aerith was not the main reason and you were saying she was?

The posts afterward seemed to be implying I was saying she was the only reason.

And also totally missing the original point which really had more to do with it being incredibly personal towards hero & villain and villain & audience respectively.

and an important one would imply there's other important reasons where as main reason would imply that's the only important one.

Maybe we just have a different view on that, because you can have primary and secondary reasons to do things but whatevs.

Putting the Cloud thing aside for a second, I do think she's a pretty primary factor overall given that her death is a personal motivation for the player -- which isn't to downplay the stuff Cloud experienced with his hometown and all that, but a majority of people didn't go, "THAT BASTARD BURNED DOWN ALL THOSE NPCS".

Zee, I repeat YOU SAID 'THE MAIN REASON'. PEOPLE ARE RESPONDING TO YOU SAYING 'THE MAIN'. EVEN IF SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING 'ONLY', SEVERAL OTHERS ARE ASKING YOU TO ADDRESS YOUR INITIAL CLAIM OF HER BEING THE PRIMARY REASON. YOU HAVE APPARENTLY IGNORED SEVERAL PEOPLE ASKING FOR YOUR CLARIFICATION ON THIS MATTER.

 

[Dashell]

Okay I see....

The posts afterward seemed to be implying I was saying she was the only reason.

I don't think OWD's response was implying this at all. She was saying why Aerith is an important reason but not the main reason. Look at the exchange afterwards, I said Aerith was a reason for sure and OWD didn't disagree with that. She just doesn't think Aerith was the MAIN reason.

I think that's how most everyone took her post which is why we're so confused

"THAT BASTARD BURNED DOWN ALL THOSE NPCS".

Pfft, I've burned so many NPCs in Sims it's not even funny.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The posts afterward seemed to be implying I was saying she was the only reason.

That is not the case universally. My own post specifically took issue with the usage of the word 'main' and how it was not the most influential of his reasons. My later post actually asked you to clarify this position since you seemed to be changing your stance on it.

And also totally missing the original point which really had more to do with it being incredibly personal towards hero & villain and villain & audience respectively.

Which we can agree with but still disagree on details. Like 'the primary/'

Maybe we just have a different view on that, because you can have primary and secondary reasons to do things but whatevs.

No, I believe she was trying to point out that your language has shifted subtly but noticeably since your initial statement.

Putting the Cloud thing aside for a second, I do think she's a pretty primary factor overall given that her death is a personal motivation for the player -- which isn't to downplay the stuff Cloud experienced with his hometown and all that, but a majority of people didn't go, "THAT BASTARD BURNED DOWN ALL THOSE NPCS".

And that's the player. Cloud is not the player, even if he acts as a Cypher for the player for a time. The game's trick is that he really is no cypher, you have no control over what you're doing, either because you're being manipulated or because simply hasn't revealed his motivations or had them revealed.

Silly Image

Now that your attention has been gotten, please do be so kind as to actually read and respond to the points brought forward since I was kind enough to point out that you've been ignoring the people who did not react as if you said only, and even OWD didn't say that once you read the whole post and not merely snippets out of context.

 

[Zee]

And that's the player. Cloud is not the player, even if he acts as a Cypher for the player for a time. The game's trick is that he really is no cypher, you have no control over what you're doing, either because you're being manipulated or because simply hasn't revealed his motivations or had them revealed.

That doesn't change the fact that we, the players, are supposed to make a connection with him and empathize when terrible shit happens to him. Like, when someone gets murdered.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

And that's the player. Cloud is not the player, even if he acts as a Cypher for the player for a time. The game's trick is that he really is no cypher, you have no control over what you're doing, either because you're being manipulated or because simply hasn't revealed his motivations or had them revealed.

Its nice see a vet of this debate thread and its predecessors agreeing with me, thus I quote FGJ.

 

[Dashell]

That doesn't change the fact that we, the players, are supposed to make a connection with him and empathize when terrible shit happens to him. Like, when someone gets murdered.

Ask me about how I feel when bad things happen to Tidus

 

[Zee]

Ask me about how I feel when bad things happen to Tidus

THERE'S ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE

Now that your attention has been gotten, please do be so kind as to actually

not enough bold caps stopped reading

 

[Winter]

are we really arguing over "how high up on the list of cloud's reasons to kill sephiroth is aerith's death"? because this is honestly really pointless. how the fuck are we going to determine whether the loss of aerith is more or less significant than the loss of his mother or a bunch of NPCs? we will never truly know cloud's motivations or priorities, we can only go off of what the game tells us.

i think the important thing here isn't exactly how important the loss of aerith was vs. the massive amount of loss that cloud has suffered in his life, but how her death affected his course of action.

whether they were porking or not, her loss was what finally, truly motivated him to bring down sephiroth once and for all. sure, maybe it was just a straw that broke the camel's back. or maybe, as AC seemed to hint at, it was a huge blow to cloud and it was what gave him the strength to fight back. does it really matter if it made him more or less sad than losing zack, or his mom, or the assholes that lived in his hometown? who even cares, it's not fucking relevant to the story in any way shape or form. the only reason we're arguing this is because it gives you a reason to downplay aerith's role in shaping cloud as a person, which we have all established as INCREDIBLY SILLY.

so yeah, maybe it's not "the reason why he killed sephiroth" or "the definite most saddest thing that ever happened to him", but it was what caused a turn in cloud's course of action, and that's what matters. also, i'm pretty sure this is what zee meant all along, but i guess reasonable deduction just isn't anyone's strong suit.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That doesn't change the fact that we, the players, are supposed to make a connection with him and empathize when terrible shit happens to him. Like, when someone gets murdered.

But that does not mean we feel the same thing as the hero.
We cheer for a man when he gets the girl of his dreams, but we do not love the girl in the same way.
We applaud his victories, but we do not know his exultation, his rush, his adrenaline high.
We empathize, but empathy is not the same as having 1:1 the same emotional states.

Further, many times we aren't even meant to empathize with a hero, but to have our emotions affected differently than theirs.

We see the hero. We like the hero. But we aren't the hero. We react to what the hero reacts to, but we do it differently. Sometimes we react the same. Sometimes, we don't. Sometimes, we aren't meant to.

 

[Dashell]

so yeah, maybe it's not "the reason why he killed sephiroth" or "the definite most saddest thing that ever happened to him", but it was what caused a turn in cloud's course of action, and that's what matters.

How so? He was going after Seph to kill him before that. (or "being summoned" even.)

also, i'm pretty sure this is what zee meant all along, but i guess reasonable deduction just isn't anyone's strong suit.

what thread do you think you're in?

 

[Ryushikaze]

not enough bold caps stopped reading

Fine then.

YOU WILL START RESPONDING TO THE ARGUMENTS AND REASONED CRITICISMS OF YOUR FELLOW POSTERS WITH RESPECT. SO SAYETH THE MOD, WHO IT IS NOT A VERY GOOD IDEA TO BACKSASS WHEN HE IS SPEAKING IN BOLDED ALLCAPS.

And winter, no, it's not. Learning Sephiroth was ALIVE was what made Cloud 'get off his duff and want to kill sephiroth.' Killing Aerith was what made Barret, Nanaki, Cid, Reeve, Yuffie, and Vincent get off their duffs and really want to kill Sephiroth.

Also, if we're getting on people's case for lacking in reasonable deduction, Zee also failed to deduce, despite being told directly, that people were taking issue with her framing of Aerith as the most important thing and also the idea, which you have also repeated, that it was this death that motivated Cloud to kill Sephioth, instead of being further motivation in addition to everything else that already made him want to kill the jackass.

 

[Winter]

okay my point here is he became like 10x more determined after losing aerith. it became more personal to him and he grew the cajones to actually deal with it instead of just "herp herp gotta find sephiroth"

or at least that's the impression i got from the game.

 

[Dashell]

So it didn't really cause a change in his course of action then, right?

I don't agree with your post but that's okay to me he seemed pretty determined before that, but as Ryu said, it sure as hell motivated everyone else . It might have given him MORE determination but even if Aerith hadn't died, he still would have gone after Seph.

 

[Zee]

Sometimes we react the same. Sometimes, we don't. Sometimes, we aren't meant to.

cloud: my fingers are tingling! my mouth is dry! my eyes are burning!
nearly every players reaction in 97:

alternatively:

I JUST SPENT HOURS LEVELING HER UP. I'M GONNA KILL THIS BASTARD.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Winter: Ummmm where the hell did the game indicate his determination to kill Sephy grew 10 sizes that day? I don't remember that. I, as I quoted from the game, remember the moment he found out Sephiroth was alive his motivations switched to... again, and I quote "I have to settle the score." Was there a tied baseball game I wasn't aware, and Cloud just needs one more run? No, he meant he was gonna go kill him now.

 

[Dashell]

I JUST SPENT HOURS LEVELING HER UP. I'M GONNA KILL THIS BASTARD.

Alternatively

WHERE'S MY ACTION REPLAY SO I CAN HACK HER BACK INTO THE PARTY?

Was there a tied baseball game I wasn't aware, and Cloud just needs one more run?

Can you prove there wasn't? huh? huh?