New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Ryushikaze]

cloud: my fingers are tingling! my mouth is dry! my eyes are burning!
nearly every players reaction in 97:

You seem to be misunderstanding this. I am not saying we are expected to have an entirely different reaction entirely. But we are not expected to have the same motivations or the same particular reactions to events that a hero might, even though we might come to understand them, or even arrive on the same wavelength through different channels, such as the player having a 'personal' investment in the demise of killing Sephiroth, but for a different reason than Cloud, who had it already.
This is letting it sink in, to us, the player, what Cloud and Tifa experienced. These aren't just faceless statistics he's killing, but folks we care about.

Let's take this back one console generation. FFV. Galuf dies. We all empathize with the four people who are with him and their loss. But the exact emotions for the four characters are not the same across the board. Each saw Galuf in their own way, as did the player. We empathize with, but are not mirrors of, the heroes, even when we are on the same wavelength as they are.
Nor, conversely, are they mirrors of us.

alternatively:

I JUST SPENT HOURS LEVELING HER UP. I'M GONNA KILL THIS BASTARD.

Which would in point of fact be an excellent example a player would have as motivation that Cloud would not. It's certainly a meta example, but it is a very good example of how this would make it personal for the player in a way that would not be needed for Cloud AS IT WAS ALREADY PERSONAL FOR HIM.

 

[Zee]

But we are not expected to have the same motivations or the same particular reactions to events that a hero might, even though we might come to understand them, or even arrive on the same wavelength through different channels, such as the player having a 'personal' investment in the demise of killing Sephiroth, but for a different reason than Cloud, who had it already.

yeah cloud had plenty of reason to want to kill sephiroth already, however, aeris' death was just a huge motivator in how he went about it

the rest of the game after her death he flat out says, "i'll do the rest, aeris" and talking about how he hasn't forgotten her and how they have to unfreeze her smile "above all". aeris' death kicked his ass in gear.

I, as I quoted from the game, remember the moment he found out Sephiroth was alive his motivations switched to... again, and I quote "I have to settle the score."

"Settling the score" is almost detached and professional as compared to the start of disk two where you can practically feel the tension when he's telling his team he's never going to forgive Sephiroth.

also

SO SAYETH THE MOD, WHO IT IS NOT A VERY GOOD IDEA TO BACKSASS WHEN HE IS SPEAKING IN BOLDED ALLCAPS.

fuck da police.jpg

 

[Winter]

@Winter: Ummmm where the hell did the game indicate his determination to kill Sephy grew 10 sizes that day? I don't remember that. I, as I quoted from the game, remember the moment he found out Sephiroth was alive his motivations switched to... again, and I quote "I have to settle the score." Was there a tied baseball game I wasn't aware, and Cloud just needs one more run? No, he meant he was gonna go kill him now.

Okay, so even though we saw more emotion out of Cloud in that one scene than in the rest of the game combined it's totally not reasonable to assume that in that moment shit got real? Because that's what I deduced and I know I'm not alone.

It was a shift in the narrative, if nothing else. Sure, maybe Cloud was always motivated by loss. But the loss of Aerith affected him differently because it happened at a very different time in his life.

Also, if we're getting on people's case for lacking in reasonable deduction, Zee also failed to deduce, despite being told directly, that people were taking issue with her framing of Aerith as the most important thing and also the idea, which you have also repeated, that it was this death that motivated Cloud to kill Sephioth, instead of being further motivation in addition to everything else that already made him want to kill the jackass.

I'm not saying he didn't already have motivation to kill Sephiroth (if my original post came off that way it was purely unintentional, so everyone please refrain from hounding me for 2 pages like you did Zee), I'm saying there was a change in his direction after the loss of Aerith.

I don't know if it's because of his dissociation during the time he lost Zack and his frequent lapses in memory of the time before that, but I've always felt like losing Aerith was something real and tangible that he knew happened and he was willing to kill for.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

yeah cloud had plenty of reason to want to kill sephiroth already, however, aeris' death was just a huge motivator in how he went about it

It was additional motive to kill Sephiroth, in what way did it change how he went about it?

the rest of the game after her death he flat out says, "i'll do the rest, aeris" and talking about how he hasn't forgotten her and how they have to unfreeze her smile "above all". aeris' death kicked his ass in gear.

Ok, so at several points he remembers Aerith and promises to finish what they started together. This does in fact show he remembers her and at least in part dedicates the fight against Sephiroth to her. But again, dude was already in gear, he already planned to kill Sephiroth from the moment he found out he was alive, how did this change anything about what he was going to do or how he was going to do it?

"Settling the score" is almost detached and professional as compared to the start of disk two where you can practically feel the tension when he's telling his team he's never going to forgive Sephiroth.

Funny, neither one of those sentences were in all caps or anything. So lacking voice actors, facial animations, or anything to give the lines more/less weight how can you differentiate which one has more tension? But! I agree, the "I will never forgive" type moments probably are a bit more aggressive. And gee, more recent shit happened between the one and the other. Its probably easier to talk cold about your rage when shit happened 5 years ago and your memory of it is all fucked, as opposed to things that happened within the last few days and you were able to form full and proper memories of to boot. So yeah, still not convincing me here.

 

[Zee]

Its probably easier to talk cold about your rage when shit happened 5 years ago and your memory of it is all fucked, as opposed to things that happened within the last few days and you were able to form full and proper memories of to boot.

...uuuuh but that's like entirely the point right there.

cloud's memories are fucked. until mid disk two he's got blank screen seizures, told he's a puppet, his memories are false, etc. sooo, yeah, that's exactly why a fresh, tangible memory like your friend getting slaughtered in front of you would be a good wake up call.

So yeah, still not convincing me here.

>implying i post here with the intention of convincing anyone of anything

dude. it's the ltd.

 

[Dashell]

Noble Knight Vendel+ 3 minutes ago Replying to Thread New year, New LTD thread.

You guys are in for it now

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Not implying anything. I don't know why you post arguments here, I just know what they have thus far failed to do. Convince me I'm wrong. Which is cool, cause if that's not what you're here for then no loss right? All awesome up in here and such

In the meantime, let me make a poor analogy and see if it helps. Let's say you're in the kitchen cooking and someone intentionally runs into you and causes you to slice off the end of a finger. You want to kick their ass, but something prevents it. Time goes by, and that same person later walks by and before you notice them there they cause another incident where you just cut yourself and bleed, but don't lose any parts. You already wanted to kick their ass, now you probably want to kick their ass more. But despite the second "accident" being less severe in a way, which are you more apt to be vocal about as you give chase?

 

[Vendel]

Okay, so even though we saw more emotion out of Cloud in that one scene than in the rest of the game combined it's totally not reasonable to assume that in that moment shit got real? Because that's what I deduced and I know I'm not alone.

Saying Aerith's death is what caused Cloud to go all emotional, more so than the rest of the game combined, is stretching that premise very thin.

That would be ignoring what happened at the temple of the Ancients and everything leading up to her death. It would also be ignoring his final breakdown right before he hands Sephy the MacGuffin of doom.

It was a shift in the narrative, if nothing else. Sure, maybe Cloud was always motivated by loss. But the loss of Aerith affected him differently because it happened at a very different time in his life.

Again I would say the shift happened in the TotA.

 

[Tir McDohl]

Cloud
Everyone, listen to me.
I'm Cloud, ex-SOLDIER, born in Nibelheim.
I came to settle up with Sephiroth.

Vincent
...You're right.

Cid
I heard that before.

Cloud
I came here by my own free will... Or so I thought.
However...
...To tell the truth, I'm afraid of myself.
...There is a part of me that I don't understand.
That part that made me give the Black Materia to Sephiroth.
If you hadn't stopped me, Aeris might have been...
...There's something inside of me. A person who is not really me.
That's why I should quit this journey.
Before I do something terrible.

But I am going.
He destroyed my hometown five years ago, killed Aeris, and is now trying to destroy the Planet. I'll never forgive... Sephiroth.
I... I must go on.
...I have a favor to ask of you.
Will you all come with me?
...to save me from doing something terrible.

So right after Aerith dies Cloud becomes 10x more determined/grows cajones by saying he's afraid and that he should quit.

Don't be mad I'm leveling up my downplay Earisu's impact skills.

the rest of the game after her death he flat out says, "i'll do the rest, aeris" and talking about how he hasn't forgotten her and how they have to unfreeze her smile "above all". aeris' death kicked his ass in gear.

Well, they don't find out that Aerith's prayer had reached Holy until later in the game. That's when Cloud says he'll handle the rest.

And that "above all, to unfreeze her smile" comes from Dismantled, I think.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

McDohl, you have found very good quotes here and I thank you for it.

 

[Vendel]

Ehh, I don't think so. I believe that Tifa the most important woman in his life, hence why I consider them to be a couple. I think that he loves her - they share a bond that no one else does with him. Does that mean he's going to put her above his friends or choose her over his friends?

Yes.

 

[Zee]

But despite the second "accident" being less severe in a way, which are you more apt to be vocal about as you give chase?

What was I cooking? THIS IS VITAL.

So right after Aerith dies Cloud becomes 10x more determined/grows cajones by saying he's afraid and that he should quit.

he's quitting by continuing his journey and asking for his friend's help






wat

 

[Tir McDohl]

gimme a break dude

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

The operative word there was "should" btw. Turns "I am quitting" into "I should quit" and all that. Who needs to work on their reading comprehension again?

And whatever your favorite meal is, that is what you were cooking. It was ruined both times due to blood splatter.

 

[Dashell]

And that "above all, to unfreeze her smile" comes from Dismantled, I think.

It does... oh are we still on that not being canon?

 

[Dashell]

gimme a break dude

who was that in response to?

 

[Vendel]

It does... oh are we still on that not being canon?

Only Benny's prose.

 

[Tir McDohl]

His reaction was described as something much more gung-ho than what it was and attributed to Aerith(when immediately after he says he's going and explains why it's same reasons + Aerith).

Actual scene would like a word with you.

who was that in response to?

At it not being obvious that my reason for pointing out what I did was because of what I posted at the top of this post here. =/

 

[Zee]

And whatever your favorite meal is, that is what you were cooking. It was ruined both times due to blood splatter.

...nevermind i forgot this was a no humor allowed thread
point is your analogy is kinda hollow and i already addressed that point so i'm just gonna move on

The operative word there was "should" btw. Turns "I am quitting" into "I should quit" and all that. Who needs to work on their reading comprehension again?

1) it's 2am here
2) what i got from that was that it was supposed to be a rebuttal against cloud manning up against sephiroth, cept that kinda rings hollow when you read the whole thing

 

[Dashell]

...nevermind i forgot this was a no humor allowed thread

He was continuing the joke

 

[Zee]

He was continuing the joke

it wasn't funny enough :C

 

[Dashell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWYRvrCOFWM#t=0m22s

(actually planned on using this vid if my April Fools prank went over like last year's)

EDIT
Damn no auto embedding.

At it not being obvious that my reason for pointing out what I did was because of what I posted at the top of this post here. =/

Oh...

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

...nevermind i forgot this was a no humor allowed thread
point is your analogy is kinda hollow and i already addressed that point so i'm just gonna move on

The only one with no humor here atm is you So, let's see... I said it was gonna be a bad analogy, but the point still stands. Where did you address it again? I do not really recall having my point come up against a decent rebuttal but if I missed it somewhere I'm happy to go back and check up

1) it's 2am here
2) what i got from that was that it was supposed to be a rebuttal against cloud manning up against sephiroth, cept that kinda rings hollow when you read the whole thing

It does not ring hollow at all. Yes he still went, and no he did not immediately man up and become 10X more determined, he went somewhat reluctantly and fearfully.

 

[Winter]

Saying Aerith's death is what caused Cloud to go all emotional, more so than the rest of the game combined, is stretching that premise very thin.

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it caused him to reach his breaking point.

In the meantime, let me make a poor analogy and see if it helps. Let's say you're in the kitchen cooking and someone intentionally runs into you and causes you to slice off the end of a finger. You want to kick their ass, but something prevents it. Time goes by, and that same person later walks by and before you notice them there they cause another incident where you just cut yourself and bleed, but don't lose any parts. You already wanted to kick their ass, now you probably want to kick their ass more. But despite the second "accident" being less severe in a way, which are you more apt to be vocal about as you give chase?

but see, my point here is that the second incident was what made you REALLY want to kick their ass. does it matter if the second cut was less severe or more severe than the first?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Yes, because it was the first cut that made me want to kick their ass in the first place. The second cut was extra anger on top of an existing font of rage. You fail analogies. (edit) Or I do.