New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Dashell]

come talk to me when you get talented enough to take just the cherry off a lit cigarette with a bullwhip

what?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

See the What Makes Your Day? thread for where I bragged about this awesome feat I accomplished today. It was but one example of the kickass stuff I do that has nothing to do with the internet... until I come here to brag to my friends about it.

 

[Zee]

Seriously, come talk to me when you get talented enough to take just the cherry off a lit cigarette with a bullwhip. Maybe then I might believe you know what non-internet related awesome looks like.

 

[Roger]

Man, Vendel shows up and you guys start racing through the pages.

 

[Winter]

it doesn't really apply to you it's my reaction to your post

also vendel is just another dude in the LTD, why do you guys all suck his dick so hard?

 

[Zee]

it doesn't really apply to you it's my reaction to your post

he's clearly too busy accomplishing amazing real life feats to know what reaction images are

i mean HELLO, priorities

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Ok, freely admitting I have no idea what that gif is supposed to mean.

Edit: Oh... well also gotta freely admit I misjudged that post then, I thought it was supposed to be me hiding behind my computer pretending to be tough. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

[Zee]

Ok, freely admitting I have no idea what that gif is supposed to mean.

my real time reaction to your post

 

[Dashell]

also vendel is just another dude in the LTD, why do you guys all suck his dick so hard?

... actually most people seem to dislike Vendel quite a bit, I have no problems with him but ask most of the people in this thread... I just happened to agree with him this time.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Ok, but the reaction I am seeing in that gif is still indecipherable to me (perhaps its how quick and jerky it is). I wanna say she's rolling her eyes, am I right?

Editing again: Sorry for all the edits, I just hate double posting most of the time. But yeah, Vendel is just a dude. Far as I know we're cool, I got no hate for Vendel. Sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't. I just happen to think he's been right pretty much ever since he joined us this evening.

 

[Max Payne]

You folks need to chill with the incisive digs and whatnot at each other.

I won't say "lol it's just the internet" or "hurr iz just game" because that demonstrates a level of immaturity and ignorance I'm not comfortable with atm. The fact is people will act strongly over things that are important to them and them hold fondly in the memories.

To those of you who think videogames aren't worth being held in such regard, you are a fool. Just as books can touch people's hearts and spark introspective thought into their lives and life in general, the stories told in games can be just as powerful to people.

That said, this debate really, really isn't an excuse for everyone to degenerate into such a complete lack of civility. I know it's funny coming from me, who generally has a great deal of contempt for most everything and everyone, but I do believe that debates do merit some degree of respect from both sides that have SOME ground to stand on.

A lot of you folks can be pretty cool people, it's kind of unseemly for you to get so seemingly bent out of shape over this shit(and vendel).

Iunno, maybe it's just late and I'm rambling on about nonsense.

 

[Zee]

I wanna say she's rolling her eyes, am I right?

she's looking around for pot

 

[Dashell]

Who are you and what did you do with Dacon?

 

[Max Payne]

Who are you and what did you do with Dacon?

Just because you are unfortunate enough to be witness to my seemingly incessant rants and ravings on the internet, does not mean you have begun to grasp the enormity that is I.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

she's looking around for pot

Oooooh ok. Allow me to express my shame for needing the joke explained to me twice in one night with a macro aimed at myself (Bats its still cool to sling mud at myself right?)

 

[looneymoon]

We see the hero. We like the hero. But we aren't the hero. We react to what the hero reacts to, but we do it differently. Sometimes we react the same. Sometimes, we don't. Sometimes, we aren't meant to.

I think you're right when referring to traditional literature, but I have to disagree completely when it comes to video games. I've sad this before in this thread but the encouragement of self-projection is one of the unique facets that the medium offers. More so then any other medium.

I disagree with the whole twist/not actually being able to control him argument (sorry it's late and I cba to find the exact post where this was said). Mostly because

a) the way the player controls Cloud effects in-game events right until the end (case in point: the alternate Highwind scenes).

b) Cloud is never at any point in the game given his own fleshed out personality. What we do know is all hazy, inferred, and largely based on assumption. We see facets of how he is in the last 20 minutes or so, but it's not really enough to clearly give him a working personality aside from a few loose adjectives.

[Though, funnily enough, the few vague notions we actually DO know about Cloud's real self are stereotypical traits of a basement dwelling video game nerd (awkward, dorky etc.) Which supports my overall point that Cloud is essentially the player ]

All in all, this all leads me to believe the whole "projection onto the main character" thing was something the creators pushed through the whole game.

And really, to address all this hubbub - I think that's what Zee/Winter's argument really boils down to. The Nibelheim flashback isn't the scene that left millions of players shaking in crying in their seats. It was Aeris' death. It's the scene that made Sephiroth truly detestable and made the whole quest for revenge seem tangible and personal.

Trying to dissect Cloud's train of thought through traditional literary means is largely misguided, imo. The truest way to assess the significance of her death is to asses your own emotional response to it. Because from everything that I know about the game, that is the impression I feel the creators were going for.

Anyways it is 4:30am so I apologize if this post didn't make sense. I fully admit I sorta rushed it and skimmed half the posts because hot damn I'd rather be fapping than to actually go through everything that's been said ;_;

 

[Joker]

Okay well see, this wasn't an option before If this was an option, yes I'd do this.

All right, here's the situation, then - and I'm putting this question forward to anyone who claims they would not ever choose.

Your bestest, most friendiest, awesome, thick-as-thieves besto friendo and your significant other/boyfriend/girlfriend/person you're in love with/whatever are both in mortal danger. You can save ONE of them, and ONLY one, and if you DON'T choose, they both die.

Which one would you choose?

(personally, while I love my friends to death, that one person that I've spent my life looking for is going to have the scale tipping toward them, rather than one of the many excellent friends I've been lucky enough to make)

Anyways it is 4:30am so I apologize if this post didn't make sense. I fully admit I sorta rushed it and skimmed half the posts because hot damn I'd rather be fapping than to actually go through everything that's been said ;_;

I skipped the five of the six pages that sprang up since I went to bed, myself

 

[Vendel]

I disagree with the whole twist/not actually being able to control him argument (sorry it's late and I cba to find the exact post where this was said). Mostly because

a) the way the player controls Cloud effects in-game events right until the end (case in point: the alternate Highwind scenes).

b) Cloud is never at any point in the game given his own fleshed out personality. We see facets of it in the last 20 minutes or so, but it's not really enough to clearly say how Cloud actually is.

Nope sorry.

Do you the player get to decide why Cloud fights? Do you get to decide who he loves? Do you get to decide that he is still a cocky ass after the LS sequence? Ultimately do you have any control over the story of FFVII whatsoever?

The answer to these questions is no. If you think you have control over any of that after the first disk then you have completely missed the point.

 

[looneymoon]

Nope sorry.

Do you the player get to decide why Cloud fights?

Does Cloud ever specify? "A personal memory" can refer to many things. I personally think it refers to the promise, but it's vague enough for the player to pick and choose.

Do you get to decide who he loves?

Disregarding the Compilation, I'd say the question is left vague enough.

Do you get to decide that he is still a cocky ass after the LS sequence?

I would not describe his behaviour as such. As I said, he acts dorky and awkward. Kinda like those dorky awkward nerds the game caters towards...

Ultimately do you have any control over the story of FFVII whatsoever?

Personal choices which effect scenes of the game, vague undefined ending which leaves no clear-cut answer as to what the hell even happened...

I'd say pretty much yes.

The answer to these questions is no. If you think you have control over any of that after the first disk then you have completely missed the point.

I think trying to clearly define the events of FF7 is missing the point. Not to mention doing a huge disservice to what the creators were trying to accomplish with the story.

 

[Vendel]

I think trying to clearly define the events of FF7 is missing the point. Not to mention doing a huge disservice to what the creators were trying to accomplish with the story.

So the creators did a disservice to themselves with the Ultimania and every interview on the subject?

I'm sorry but I am not swallowing the "FFVII is a vast sea of vagueness that no mere mortal can define thus it is all open to interpretation" line of thinking.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Your bestest, most friendiest, awesome, thick-as-thieves besto friendo and your significant other/boyfriend/girlfriend/person you're in love with/whatever are both in mortal danger. You can save ONE of them, and ONLY one, and if you DON'T choose, they both die.

Which one would you choose?

(personally, while I love my friends to death, that one person that I've spent my life looking for is going to have the scale tipping toward them, rather than one of the many excellent friends I've been lucky enough to make)

this argument is stupid because it assumes that there's that single special person out there who makes you complete, bluh bluh

but that's just utter bullshit, no one was specifically 'made' with you in mind, you just date people and get along better with some than others.

tl;dr: this argument is stupid.

also: LTD stop taking 'roids, you all seem to be suffering from RAAAAAAAAEG on one side or another go drink some tea and sleep for the proper 8 hours okey?

 

[Roger]

I think you're right when referring to traditional literature, but I have to disagree completely when it comes to video games. I've sad this before in this thread but the encouragement of self-projection is one of the unique facets that the medium offers. More so then any other medium.

I disagree with the whole twist/not actually being able to control him argument (sorry it's late and I cba to find the exact post where this was said). Mostly because

a) the way the player controls Cloud effects in-game events right until the end (case in point: the alternate Highwind scenes).

What we do on Disc 1 effects how close Tifa and Cloud are at the Highwind scene. Barely. And the multiple choices we got every now and then hardly constitute complete control over every decision Cloud makes over the course of the game.

b) Cloud is never at any point in the game given his own fleshed out personality. What we do know is all hazy, inferred, and largely based on assumption. We see facets of how he is in the last 20 minutes or so, but it's not really enough to clearly give him a working personality aside from a few loose adjectives.

Does everyone ram through this game like it's going out of style as soon as they find Cloud in Mideel after dwaddling around the entire game prior save for me? 20 minutes wut? And we get to see his entire lifestory, more fully then any other FF character that I can think off.

[Though, funnily enough, the few vague notions we actually DO know about Cloud's real self are stereotypical traits of a basement dwelling video game nerd (awkward, dorky etc.) Which supports my overall point that Cloud is essentially the player ]

Let's go though some of these vague notions that can be inferred as dorky and awkward.

Tries to save the girl he likes by jumping of a mountain without even the faintest regard for his own life.

Deals with the rest of his villages dislike for him by getting into fights.

Leaves home to join the army at 14, to impress aforementioned girl.

Responds to the loss of his mother by racing up a mountain filled with ridiculously powerful monsters to kill man responsible.

Well that does sound like me.

Anyways it is 4:30am so I apologize if this post didn't make sense. I fully admit I sorta rushed it and skimmed half the posts because hot damn I'd rather be fapping than to actually go through everything that's been said ;_;

Well at least you apologised, it's cool.

 

[Joker]

At some point, Aki, you gave to suspend your disbelief to play along. but in this case, you've already made the choice, so it doesn't rly apply to you.

That's just my reasoning for making my choice - nothing wrong with disagreeing.

 

[Ryushikaze]

he's quitting by continuing his journey and asking for his friend's help

He's not quitting his journey, but he's telling his friends 'Take me out if I look like I'm a threat.' Aerith's death doesn't inspire him even more to kill Sephiroth. It convinces Cloud he is a puppet dancing on a string, or could be at any time, and that he needs to be watched.

2) what i got from that was that it was supposed to be a rebuttal against cloud manning up against sephiroth, cept that kinda rings hollow when you read the whole thing

It does, however, list Aerith's death sandwiched between his hometown and the whole planet.
"He destroyed my hometown five years ago, killed Aerith, and is now trying to destroy the Planet."

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it caused him to reach his breaking point.

But at that breaking point... He actually breaks. He doesn't go 'YAAAR!' He goes "Will you all
come with me? ...to save me from doing something terrible." and "We have to stop Sephiroth from summoning Meteor."

but see, my point here is that the second incident was what made you REALLY want to kick their ass. does it matter if the second cut was less severe or more severe than the first?

But the second cut isn't adding incredibly more rage, it's just refreshing everything that was already there and adding a some extra.

did I ever say that nothing ever happened to cloud before aerith's death that made him want to kill sephiroth? no. I said that aerith's death caused a change in cloud and made his resolve even firmer, even moreso than we'd seen previously in the game. for a variety of reasons there was something different about the timing and circumstance of aerith's death that made shit real for cloud.

Except it didn't strengthen his resolve. It actually weakened it. Cloud's confidence in himself dropped at that point. He didn't abandon the mission, but he had no illusions of being able to complete it, or of resisting the influence later.

vendel: no, that is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that we saw more emotion out of Cloud, as a viewer, in that scene than any other in the first half of the game. I'm not saying Cloud was an emotionless prick or that he never felt upset at anything else in his life, I'm saying that the entire process of losing Aerith (I honestly include TotA in this, Quex) was a huge display of emotion from him.

Even more than the Nibelheim incident? His speech was unveiled in the recounting of Kalm.

yes he's afraid but he's also continuing on despite the fact that stopping would probably be a safer idea because he was so set on killing sephiroth

how is that not determination

Because he's making sure everyone else keeps him from becoming an enemy agent. He's lost his confidence that he can win. It has to be done, even if he's not a good choice for the job, he's all they've got. Because they have to get the Black Materia back from him.

Except without Aeris dying in front of his face, he probably would have stopped pursuing Sephiroth once he realized he was too unstable to face him. So...yeah, a fresh new reason on why to fight would certainly add to his determination to kill Sephiroth despite his fractured mental state.

While that's just speculation, Cloud himself says "We still have a chance. We must get that Black Materia back before Sephiroth uses it. Let's go." as his reason for continuing.
But then again, this is while he's being pulled. Maybe he would have found a reason to go regardless.

well i was dogged for like four pages for an offhand princess bride joke, so

No you weren't. You were questioned about your statement, errant or not, that Aerith was the primary reason he wanted Sephiroth dead and for your less than stellar reaction to people asking you to clarify that or expressing why they disagreed with that statement.

Also, I thought Aerith's death made Cloud feel even more depressed and powerless in the face of it all. I really didn't think he'd have gone any further forward without Tifa and co. to support him and give him strength.

Considering he asked them along to make sure he wasn't a threat, it's very likely.

i'm not shifting my argument, dunkass, i was clarifying for quex.

i still maintain what I said: we saw a breaking point in cloud that was highlighted by how emotional he was. that is all, bro.

You actually used the phrase 'ten times more emotional' and it's in those hyperbolic phrases that you and Zee continually invite trouble.

1. don't say lulz

There is an amount of eyebrow raising where you tell someone else not to use net slang, but give a pass to macros.

god you are so internet cool

Another ironic statement.

I think you're right when referring to traditional literature, but I have to disagree completely when it comes to video games. I've sad this before in this thread but the encouragement of self-projection is one of the unique facets that the medium offers. More so then any other medium.

I don't disagree that it happens. I just don't think that's the point here. Or rather, the final point. We ARE expected to self project onto Cloud in the beginning, and then learn, slowly but surely, that we projected wrong.

I disagree with the whole twist/not actually being able to control him argument (sorry it's late and I cba to find the exact post where this was said). Mostly because

a) the way the player controls Cloud effects in-game events right until the end (case in point: the alternate Highwind scenes).

It affects that scene (and little others) but not Cloud's motivations and personality as a whole.

b) Cloud is never at any point in the game given his own fleshed out personality. What we do know is all hazy, inferred, and largely based on assumption. We see facets of how he is in the last 20 minutes or so, but it's not really enough to clearly give him a working personality aside from a few loose adjectives.

Actually, we get a very clear picture of who he is, and then we've got several more hours of him as him of gameplay. Real!Cloud gets a good bit of character development. More than Cait Sith, probably as much as Aerith.

[Though, funnily enough, the few vague notions we actually DO know about Cloud's real self are stereotypical traits of a basement dwelling video game nerd (awkward, dorky etc.) Which supports my overall point that Cloud is essentially the player ]

All in all, this all leads me to believe the whole "projection onto the main character" thing was something the creators pushed through the whole game.

Not quite. We're expected to project, and then be shown. Unlike Oblivion where your character really is defined up in your own head, Cloud and the other FF heroes apart from WOL and the OKs have their own characters. In FF7, the creators played with a lot of gaming conventions and stereotypes to pull the rug out from under the player several times, including starting with an apparently blank slate, but revealing the defined character of that hero after time.

And really, to address all this hubbub - I think that's what Zee/Winter's argument really boils down to. The Nibelheim flashback isn't the scene that left millions of players shaking in crying in their seats. It was Aeris' death. It's the scene that made Sephiroth truly detestable and made the whole quest for revenge seem tangible and personal.

Yes. For the player. But for Cloud, the Nibelheim incident is where that started.

Trying to dissect Cloud's train of thought through traditional literary means is largely misguided, imo. The truest way to assess the significance of her death is to asses your own emotional response to it. Because from everything that I know about the game, that is the impression I feel the creators were going for.

Yeah. And NO ONE is disagreeing that the significance of her death was aimed at the players. We're just arguing that Cloud and the Player are not the same. For example, FOR CLOUD, that's not when it got personal. It'd been personal. He didn't need it. The player- and everyone in the party not from Nibelheim- did.

Anyways it is 4:30am so I apologize if this post didn't make sense. I fully admit I sorta rushed it and skimmed half the posts because hot damn I'd rather be fapping than to actually go through everything that's been said ;_;

Like you're not fapping to the thread anyways.

 

[Joker]

Like you're not fapping to the thread anyways.

...riiiiiight.