New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[looneymoon]

Indeed. I actually read that whole series just to see where that would go.

Well, all the ones that count. I stopped at "Seeds of Yesterday" and just read summaries of "Garden of Shadows" -- and was very glad I did. "Garden of Shadows" is full of retarded retcons and wasn't really written by V.C. Andrews anyway.

Is Seed of Yesterday the one about their grandparents? I didn't read that one either. Wiki summaries ftw. The last one I read was the one about their kids (I think that was the third one?) and even that one was pretty lackluster from what I remember.

THE FIRST TWO ARE GOLD THO.

 

[Max Payne]

Okay this is going to be a terrible analogy but it's the only one I can think of: let's say you're a mother and your kid is kidnapped, and you have to go find him. You're scared as shit because you don't know who has him and you don't know where you are but you are motivated to do something about it.

Cloud's is definitely more cerebral that the example, but he admits that a part of him is scared, but he wants to go forward. He's not blindly tearing through the world, but I think that's a consequence of who he is than his want level.

You can want to do something, but still be unmotivated. If you feel helpless and powerless in the world, you're going to be dissuaded from doing anything, even the things that really mean something to you. I'm just speaking from personal experience here, because I've been there several times. It's why I don't consider myself a strong person.

I think he had drive- but that he could only feel secure if his friends came along.

I have to disagree after everything both I and Tres have pointed out. I really felt like Cloud got lost in the flow and felt like he just couldn't do anything in the face of it all. Aerith's death just helped him plummet even further down the well of despair. We all put on a brave face for the people we care about, because we don't want to worry the shit out of them. But it only belies our true pain.

1. the emotional cornerstone of the entire game. That "unfreeze her smile" may not be romantic, but it's a theme that keeps coming back up, more than any other tragedy (of course, the burning of his hometown- but that later became more attributed to his mindfuck).

I think that's going a bit too far. Aerith is indeed an important part of the game, but Cloud's identity problems and his person struggles in life play a much more important role in that regard. It's his troubles that we are the closest too in the game.

2. just more than just a person, she became a symbol of everything he came to regret. He beat her, and then he almost killed her, he was a symbol of the weakness he despised even after years. I honestly don't like the ltd reducing Aerith as just a regret Cloud had, but it is partly true and it is significant.http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6215/dsc00521y.jpg

I'd say Aerith AND Zack play this role, at least as far as that nonsense AC/the compilation portrayed. In the context of the original game I don't feel that way at all.

 

[ForceStealer]

Tifa: You're sure messed up, Cloud!

Well thanks, I guess.

Incidentally, I love that line. Tifa, you snarky bitch

Yeah, I know it was more of a "lighten the mood" type deal, but still.

 

[looneymoon]

Incidentally, I love that line. Tifa, you snarky bitch

Yeah, I know it was more of a "lighten the mood" type deal, but still.

Second to her calling Barret a retard

 

[ForceStealer]

And people talk about that line today, but honestly the first time I played FF7, I was in middle school and everyone was calling each other "retarded," I didn't really think anything of it.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Also, no, those who chose lovers over friends aren't dicks, they're grown ups. Thinking that you'll always put someone as dear as a lover on the same level than a friend just means that you haven't found the person that is the most important to you.

ilu

 

[Max Payne]

ilu

JUST FOR THAT I'M TOTALLY PICKING MORRIGAN OVER YOU

 

[looneymoon]

And people talk about that line today, but honestly the first time I played FF7, I was in middle school and everyone was calling each other "retarded," I didn't really think anything of it.

ngl I still do it out of habit. I feel appropriately guilty for doing so though ;.; BAD HABITS ARE BAD : (

but really, those kinds of lines make it weird for me that people consider Tifa a shy and awkward character. Shy about Cloud maybe, but she always struck me as really sociable.

 

[Vendel]

The creators clarified/established much of the canon through release of subsequent materials, but I don't feel it invalidates other options clearly presented in the game.

And here I thought them going "this is what happened and why" invalidated other interpretations by default?

If people want to go on thinking the human race died at the end, then that's cool.

You can think that. You would be wrong.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Yeah, I know it was more of a "lighten the mood" type deal, but still.

I'd like to think of it as more "pointing out the obvious", but whatev, that's just me.

Seriously though, I think it was a little bit of black humor (or gray?) from Tifa's part. You know, if the reality is way too shitty... laugh at it. At least, this is what I've been taught from my grandmother, who had sclerosis. She was laughing at her situation all the time, to deal with it.

If people want to go on thinking the human race died at the end, then that's cool.

Eh... then it'd be an AU thought. The big amount of time that took of the continuation to arrive doesn't negate the fact that this is how things continued.

This reminds me of the HP books, and the gap between GoF and OotF. Many started writing fanfiction for the next year, and some ideas and fanfics were truly grand, but then OotF came and

Spoiler: some spoilers happened, just in case

Serius died and

thus all those scenarios got out of the window and into the AU room. This doesn't mean that they were scenarios based on nothingness, on the contrary, many stories made excellent sense with the themes and characters of HP, they are just... AUs now. Same with the "all humans died" theory. (Which really boggled my mind when I first read it. I thought Holy WAS going to, but A-HA! Lifestream to the rescue! And yet... humanity was wiped out. But, again, whatev.)

Yes, I know that FFVII wasn't thought in terns of a Compilation entry in the beginning, but the Compilation is a reality now. If you want to get away from the canon, go ahead, just baptize it AU and have fun with it!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay this is going to be a terrible analogy but it's the only one I can think of: let's say you're a mother and your kid is kidnapped, and you have to go find him. You're scared as shit because you don't know who has him and you don't know where you are but you are motivated to do something about it.

Cloud's is definitely more cerebral that the example, but he admits that a part of him is scared, but he wants to go forward. He's not blindly tearing through the world, but I think that's a consequence of who he is than his want level.

To add to what Dacon said, Cloud making any choice is a big part of the reason he's scared. It's not like your analogy with the woman and her kidnapped kid because she's not part of the problem.

In Cloud's case, he does nothing and Aerith is probably screwed without him there to help. If he makes a choice to go after her with the others, she may be just as screwed.

He's not really motivated to go forward because he can't trust himself to be part of any solutions.

Is Seed of Yesterday the one about their grandparents? I didn't read that one either. Wiki summaries ftw. The last one I read was the one about their kids (I think that was the third one?) and even that one was pretty lackluster from what I remember.

THE FIRST TWO ARE GOLD THO.

Nah, "Garden" is that crapfest about their grandparents. I plan to continue steering clear.

But, yeah, the first two are greatness. The second two aren't terrible either, and at least the fourth one at last resolves the Chris/Cathy matter.

 

[Vendel]

Yes, I know that FFVII wasn't thought in terns of a Compilation entry in the beginning, but the Compilation is a reality now. If you want to get away from the canon, go ahead, just baptize it AU and have fun with it!

It seems to me that years of fan wank have made many believe the original game was a lot more open to interpretation than was ever intended.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I thought it wasn't left up to interpretation but more 'the answers are there we just aren't spelling them out'.

 

[Dana Scully]

It seems to me that years of fan wank have made many believe the original game was a lot more open to interpretation than was ever intended.

Well, the ending at least was pretty open.

IIRC, you see big flash of white as the Lifestream collides with Holy/Meteor and a bunch of characters closing their eyes - a quick thing of Aerith in the Lifestream - and then credits. And then Red XIII 500 years later looking out over an overgrown Midgar.

While Red surviving suggests that the Highwind and its passengers made it out okay, anything else is pretty well up in the air.

 

[Elisa Maza]

It seems to me that years of fan wank have made many believe the original game was a lot more open to interpretation than was ever intended.

Ehh... I wouldn't go that far. I mean, I knew what *I* believed that happened in the end, but others had other ideas. With that ending much could be assumed.

When the Compilation came out, I guess I was lucky enough to have my interpretation assured. Nothing more. This goes for the LTD as well, since I've always believed that CloTi did happen during the scene under the Highwind, but whether it *continued* as well... thaaaat's another story. One that the Compilation said.

That, and what Lady Deadpool said.

 

[ForceStealer]

I had always figured humanity survived because Holy was what Bugen thought might wipe out humans, but it was the Lifestream that stopped Meteor, so I figured that concern was moot at that point. In fact it looked like Holy was letting Meteor through - or at least enough to destroy Midgar, but the Lifestream's (Aerith's) intervention seemed to mean that humans would be spared either way I always thought.

But I do remember there being plenty of people in the other camp.

 

[Eerie]

I always thought you managed to save the world because of Red XIII being still there. Sure, there's no trace of humanity, but that's the whole point, in 500 years, lot of things change.

His presence though was the token that there was life after FFVII, and if there was life, no matter what happened to humanity a long time after the events, it meant that humans survived at the end of FFVII. I saw Red XIII looking at the nature as a fact that humanity changed: either it disappeared a long time after (albeit, unlikely), either they changed their ways of living with nature, and left their old habits for new ones.

FFVII had an ecologic theme, after all. Or so I thought while playing it.

 

[Celes Chere]

Thinking that you'll always put someone as dear as a lover on the same level than a friend just means that you haven't found the person that is the most important to you.

 

[Dashell]

I still love you Tiff ;_;


but you know if I had to pick you or Rob I'd pick him

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Whether you agree with that particular point of Eerie's or not, the rest of the points being made were spot on (by the way, I'm not speaking to the LTD matter at all here; just real life):

But when you've been with someone for years, that s/he's the other parent of your kids, things are little different.

While you will still be there for your friends, the family is a unit that is placed above the rest. And you also learn that your friends are adult and can manage too, and you learn to trust them on the matter that yes, they can live on their own. Being there for them is different than when you were younger. I'm in my thirties and that's how it's been for me, despite me being a friend for people and having been there for them. So it's not condescending, but more how I see things for me AND around me.

The part I bolded, in particular.

A family/marriage dynamic isn't going to work out too well if someone can't prioritize the family/marriage -- and not just in an extraordinary, unlikely situation like picking between the survival of a spouse or a friend.

I'm talking about simple things like your friend wants to do shit this weekend, but your spouse has plans for you guys to do something. Or your friend is sick or feeling down and would be oh so cheered up if you came over, but your spouse kind of needs some time with you right now because you guys have been working hard lately and haven't had a good chance until this moment to really relax together.

It's these kinds of choices that you will make -- and you will not be able to avoid making a decision of some kind -- day-to-day, week-to-week that qualify as putting either friends or romantic interest first.

Maybe you still don't know right now what your decision will be or still think the dilemma of picking one or the other is unnecessary, but believe me: especially once you've begun living with someone, you'll find that it's an unavoidable decision.

 

[looneymoon]

Goodness Tres didn't The Dark Knight teach you anything?

WELL DON'T BE SURPRISED WHEN ALL YOUR FRIENDS GO ALL TWO-FACED ON YOU.

 

[Celes Chere]

I don't believe the world works in just one way. I also don't believe love is so simple and that it only works in a certain way. Also, I disagree that I haven't found the right person just because I believe my friends are just important as that person.

Finally, just because a certain way of living works for you or a lot of people, doesn't mean it can't work differently for another. Therefore... I don't believe that choosing a lover over your friends is a part of growing up. I don't think love is a statistic, or that it's based on certain facts. Emotions are more complicated than that. If you hold your lover in higher regards than your friends and would choose them over your friends when it all came down to it, then I respect that. However I feel a different way.

Tres, I understand that. But the question was whether I care about one more than the other, or in a situation being forced to choose which one would I have to choose. And I can only pick one for the rest of my life? Impossible.

I have already made decisions such as the ones you've mentioned in my life, and guess what? People got upset over it. That's life though, I guess. Sometimes you have to choose, I get that. But choosing one over the other for the rest of my life to care about *more* than the other? Impossible.

I still love you Tiff ;_;


but you know if I had to pick you or Rob I'd pick him

Dick.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Also, no, those who chose lovers over friends aren't dicks, they're grown ups.

or incredibly naive

but sure let's go with grown ups.

Thinking that you'll always put someone as dear as a lover on the same level than a friend just means that you haven't found the person that is the most important to you. I think it's natural that, when you are younger, you tend to believe that friends are as important as your lover. But when you've been with someone for years, that s/he's the other parent of your kids, things are little different.

While you will still be there for your friends, the family is a unit that is placed above the rest. And you also learn that your friends are adult and can manage too, and you learn to trust them on the matter that yes, they can live on their own. Being there for them is different than when you were younger. I'm in my thirties and that's how it's been for me, despite me being a friend for people and having been there for them. So it's not condescending, but more how I see things for me AND around me.

this assumes that people, as a whole, are willing to drop everything for the family, and of most people this just isn't true. People are selfish, they break other people's hearts, whether they're the person's lover or child. And, moreover, some just don't care when other people are mad at them and will continue to seek out their friends/another person to love because they just don't care about other people.

and to cut the tension of my random angry rant hOnK hOnK hOnK hOnK

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And I can only pick one for the rest of my life? Impossible.

That's what commitment entails, and why it can be difficult for many.

I have already made decisions such as the ones you've mentioned in my life, and guess what? People got upset over it. That's life though, I guess. Sometimes you have to choose, I get that. But choosing one over the other for the rest of my life to care about *more* than the other? Impossible.

You could also look at it as putting what amounts to your own interests first in a lot of cases (e.g. do you really want to have a fight or breed harsh feelings over something like one of those scenarios I described). A friend should understand if you put a partner first in most situations, and, if not, there's a problem with them.



But, yeah, I'd say learning to put your partner first is a reality of growing up. At least once you're in a situation where your domestic setting, finances, groceries, etc. are inextricably tied to this other person.

And that comes back to putting your own interests first along with theirs.

You can't please everyone, and you can't even please one person all the time, but you can come a lot closer to the latter than the former.



Anywho, as we're getting off topic, I'll stop this line of discussion now unless you want to continue.

 

[Celes Chere]

That's what commitment entails, and why it can be difficult for many.

Yeah, picking one person to live with start a family with... finding the person you love and sticking with them, that is commitment to me. If you love them and are dedicated to make them the happiest you can, and helping them through anything... That doesn't mean you should have to care about them more than your friends. It's definitely not impossible to be committed to someone, and care about your friends with an intensity.

A friend should understand if you put a partner first in most situations, and, if not, there's a problem with them.

For me, I believe just the opposite. If the person you love cannot see that your friends are important, there is something wrong with them. Well, not something *wrong* it's just something that you're going to clash about. It's a difference of opinion, difference in feeling/beliefs. And well, actually, I don't believe the exact opposite. I think both friends and lover should understand the importance of one another. xD Shouldn't you try and understand your partners feelings? That's what partners do, in my opinion. So if they have friends or even family close to them and they want to spend a lot of time with them I would try and understand that. I certainly wouldn't tell them that they need to grow up and start putting me above all else. And I definitely wouldn't suggest "Oh, well you care about your friends and family a lot. I guess you're not the right person for me."

Well, if you'd like to stop discussing it (it is not the right thread for it afterall), then I will stop as well. xD But actually it was nice to have a discussion where I got to see a different view, and maybe I can take something out of it so cool.

Oh, and just for the record yeah I believe love is about making sacrifices for that person. Cancelling a plan with some friends to spend time with your loved one is perfectly fine. Or setting up a whole week of just each other. Or just going out of your way for them. I think that is what you should do. I'm just saying that ... I couldn't choose between the two if given the choice that I had to make. My feeling simply won't allow me to care about one more than the other, for all eternity, and to leave the others behind. (probably never would be in that situation, but if I was couldn't do it) Like if my boyfriend or girlfriend told me "Choose, me or your friends?" I wouldn't be able to do it.

So uh yeah... back to uh, Cloti being canon and stuff.