New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Dana Scully]

Tbh, between watching Nibelheim burn/Sephiroth cutting down civilians and Tifa sobbing/snapping over her father's corpse and then getting owned by Seph was a pretty horrifying experience. I think it's a huge reason behind Cloud's motivation to take down Seph (though, on a sort of side note, that scene actually made me empathize more with Tifa than with Cloud).

That said, I think Cloud feels personally responsible for Aerith's death in a way he doesn't for Nibelheim. Unlike in Nibelheim - which no one saw coming - this time around Cloud knew exactly what brand of crazy they were up against. He sees Aerith's death as something he could have prevented, had he been stronger/not insane - you can see it in his guilt-complex in AC ("I think I came to be forgiven"). Plus, the story of Cloud's sanity - namely finally realizing that he doesn't have any - is so closely tied to Aerith's final days/death that I felt it added a whole other layer of personal to it.

Also there's the whole Cloud-is-Aerith's-bodyguard thing, which while at first I don't think he or the player took very seriously becomes a lot more painful in hindsight.

So yeah, I do think Aerith's death becomes the main motivator for continuing his chase. While both Nibelheim and Aerith's death are both personal, the responsibility he feels towards the two incidents are totally different.

Also, @question about having to choose between the love of your life and your bestest friend; I'd kill the bastard who was trying to make me choose or die trying. Don't put up with that fucking shit, no sir.

 

[Joker]

That doesn't answer the question XD there's an A or B choice, or C happens

 

[Celes Chere]

Your bestest, most friendiest, awesome, thick-as-thieves besto friendo and your significant other/boyfriend/girlfriend/person you're in love with/whatever are both in mortal danger. You can save ONE of them, and ONLY one, and if you DON'T choose, they both die.

Which one would you choose?

OMG. In that situation, they'd both end up dying and then I'd probably kill myself. I'd never be able to choose lmao. It doesn't help that I'm very indecisive. Actually, I guess I'd have to be in that situation to really know what I'd do, and I hope to God that I never am. ;-;

 

[Madame Mayor]

I don't know why the lover or friend question needs to be life or death.

If my boyfriend needs me, and a friend needs me, I'm tending to my boyfriend first. And I know he'd do the same for me. And when I say I put him above everyone, I'm included in that.

 

[Dana Scully]

That doesn't answer the question XD there's an A or B choice, or C happens

Haven't you ever added your own answer to a multiple choice test? Even if you automatically get it wrong, it was your choice and not forced upon you.

(I know I'm kinda defeating the purpose of the question here, but what I said before is honestly what I'd do).

 

[Joker]

The idea is to determine who comes first, ftirmd or significant other. Its less the life or death-ness of it, and more that that sort of thing tends to focus people's priorities

And its still cheating but in theory, if it were just some regular choice, o YACCBS, who would you pick? Everyone has am answer, because everyone has an opinion and, were it necessary, would choose.

 

[Tifabelle]

As for how much Aerith's death is responsible for Cloud going after Sephiroth, etc, I'm going to state my position. I don't think Aerith's death is the main reason, or more important than other reasons, etc. Where does it rank in his reason? I have no idea tbh. However I do consider the possiblility that her death could have given him a renewed sense of purpose in the matter.

 

[Dana Scully]

The idea is to determine who comes first, ftirmd or significant other. Its less the life or death-ness of it, and more that that sort of thing tends to focus people's priorities

And its still cheating but in theory, if it were just some regular choice, o YACCBS, who would you pick? Everyone has am answer, because everyone has an opinion and, were it necessary, would choose.

Alright, if I absolutely had to choose...significant other.

meanest question ever ;_;

 

[Madame Mayor]

Alright, if I absolutely had to choose...significant other.

meanest question ever ;_;

Welcome to the dick club.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Now what if Cloud found out he had a sister? Would he choose the sister or Tifa? That one I can see being tough

What if Cloud found out Aerith was his sister?

Then we'd have a story from AdultFanFiction.net.

Yeah, I've got nothing else to contribute here.

Except to say that Dacon's become the voice of reason in these parts and everybody should listen to him.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

The idea is to determine who comes first, ftirmd or significant other. Its less the life or death-ness of it, and more that that sort of thing tends to focus people's priorities

And its still cheating but in theory, if it were just some regular choice, o YACCBS, who would you pick? Everyone has am answer, because everyone has an opinion and, were it necessary, would choose.

BRO YOU ARE ASKING ME IF I CHOOSE MY MATESPIRIT BEFORE MY MOIRAIL I JUST GOTTA SAY NO BRO RAILS BEFORE PAILS

YOUR MATESPIRIT MAY PROVIDE THE GENETIC MATERIAL FOR THE IMPERIAL DRONES BUT YOUR MOIRAIL KEEPS YOU FROM KILLING BITCHES AND GETTING YOUR HEAD HANDED TO YOU ON A PLATTER BY A LEGISLACERATOR. THAT IS NOT SHIT TO TAKE LIGHTLY.

What if Cloud found out Aerith was his sister?

Then we'd have a story from AdultFanFiction.net.

i read this story back when it was called Flowers in the Attic

trashy, trashy shit

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

i read this story back when it was called Flowers in the Attic

trashy, trashy shit

I actually liked it, but I doubt that surprises anyone.

 

[Joker]

Pssh.

Shepard makes harder choices every day

Also, lolaki and lolbrooke

 

[Max Payne]

See maybe it's just the way I interpreted the story, but after Aerith died I REALLY did not see Cloud as motivated at all. As I said, from the point she died to his confrontation with Sephiroth where he finally broke, it really felt like he was just going through the motions, because he felt he had no choice. I could hardly blame him with Sephiroth pulling his strings like a marionette, hell he almost made him kill Aerith himself and had been dicking around in his head for some time making him question himself and his identity well enough.

Eventually I'm sure Aerith's death was on the list of things Cloud was going to take out of Sephiroth's ass, but I don't see it as his main motivation up to that point, or really any motivation at all, since he seemed to gradually lose it as he trekked further through the trenches.

Personally, I would see the destruction of my hometown, the murder of my mother, the maiming of my crush, and the complete theft of my personality and identity as higher on the list, than the death of a girl I just met a few months ago. I'm not saying that to be cruel or anything, it's just that the other things are what I consider much more personal.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

See maybe it's just the way I interpreted the story, but after Aerith died I REALLY did not see Cloud as motivated at all.

Nor did I, though I'd go as far as to say he seemed to lack motivation from the moment he beat the shit out of her at the temple. Barret and Tifa had to convince him to even go after her at that point, after all:

http://www.yinza.com/Fandom/Script/26.html

 

[Max Payne]

Nor did I, though I'd go as far as to say he seemed to lack motivation from the moment he beat the shit out of her at the temple. Barret and Tifa had to convince him to even go after her at that point, after all:

http://www.yinza.com/Fandom/Script/26.html

Now that I look back on it, you're right. It does stretch that far back.

 

[Splintered]

I think there was motivation or he wouldn't do it.

I just think he was terrified as shit to do anything, and that he was horribly confused. In this state, if he didn't have any drive, he would have done nothing. Even if he claimed Sephiroth was controlling him.

If we take it the fact that he was hesitant because of himself to take on Sephiroth after Aerith as it means she wasn't a huge and very dramatic driving force, then nothing is a potential motivating force because there's nothing really new that happens between her death and him killing Sephiroth. With the exception of him knowing himself, but the other motivators- his village, his mother, and Tifa, were all there from the beginning.

 

[looneymoon]

why the fuck am I already awake and on the internet again sdaf;a;lfjsda;fj

So the creators did a disservice to themselves with the Ultimania and every interview on the subject?

The creators clarified/established much of the canon through release of subsequent materials, but I don't feel it invalidates other options clearly presented in the game. If people want to go on thinking the human race died at the end, then that's cool.

Let's go though some of these vague notions that can be inferred as dorky and awkward.

Tries to save the girl he likes by jumping of a mountain without even the faintest regard for his own life.

Deals with the rest of his villages dislike for him by getting into fights.

Leaves home to join the army at 14, to impress aforementioned girl.

Responds to the loss of his mother by racing up a mountain filled with ridiculously powerful monsters to kill man responsible.

These aren't personality traits... O.o

I don't disagree that it happens. I just don't think that's the point here. Or rather, the final point. We ARE expected to self project onto Cloud in the beginning, and then learn, slowly but surely, that we projected wrong.

I think if FF7 had a clear-cut ending I'd be inclined to agree. But the game ends on a note that says to the player that what YOU take from the game is just as valid as what the game presents to you. That's just the general message I get from the game as a whole, and I think the way Cloud is written ties into that theme.

It affects that scene (and little others) but not Cloud's motivations and personality as a whole.

We never actually get to know 100% Cloud's personal reason for fighting. "A personal memory" can literally be anything. We can make educated guesses, some which make more sense than others, but there isn't really a definitive answer to the matter.

Actually, we get a very clear picture of who he is, and then we've got several more hours of him as him of gameplay. Real!Cloud gets a good bit of character development. More than Cait Sith, probably as much as Aerith.

After TLS sequence, we only get a handful of sequences left, most of which that don't go out there way to establish the reintroduction of the "real Cloud." We get some dialogue but not enough to define him beyond some stereotypical underdog hero traits. Definitely not as well-defined as Aeris. More than Cait Sith isn't actually saying much.

Not quite. We're expected to project, and then be shown. Unlike Oblivion where your character really is defined up in your own head, Cloud and the other FF heroes apart from WOL and the OKs have their own characters. In FF7, the creators played with a lot of gaming conventions and stereotypes to pull the rug out from under the player several times, including starting with an apparently blank slate, but revealing the defined character of that hero after time.

Yeah. And NO ONE is disagreeing that the significance of her death was aimed at the players. We're just arguing that Cloud and the Player are not the same. For example, FOR CLOUD, that's not when it got personal. It'd been personal. He didn't need it. The player- and everyone in the party not from Nibelheim- did.

I don't really want to make it seem like Cloud = 100% the player. Because if that were the case I think the game would be much, much different. I do feel that a certain level of projection is definitely encouraged within the game. It's a unique mix of traditional storytelling a video game narrative.

I feel like i have read an interview with either Nojima or Nomura which basically states they wrote Cloud in a way that the players could easily place themselves onto him, or something (???). I have no idea where it came from, but I know it exists... somewhere.

I just don't buy the whole "pulled under the rug" argument because it's not exactly effective storytelling when you give very clear options for the player to project "correctly." And the fact that you can still choose things after Cloud regains his identity. And the fact that it's a video game and I feel the writers kept that in mind while producing the script. The extent of the twist during TLS is that Cloud is actually more like the player than he initially seemed.

i read this story back when it was called Flowers in the Attic

trashy, trashy shit

Chris/Cathy are a deliciously fucked up OTP man.

 

[Max Payne]

I think there was motivation or he wouldn't do it.

You've never done something that was considered important without being motivated to do it? I have several times.

I just think he was terrified as shit to do anything, and that he was horribly confused.

How is that not being unmotivated? Fear is another faucet of depression, isn't it?

In this state, if he didn't have any drive, he would have done nothing. Even if he claimed Sephiroth was controlling him.

He had drive, just not coming from himself. His friends were pushing him forward.

If we take it the fact that he was hesitant because of himself to take on Sephiroth after Aerith as it means she wasn't a huge and very dramatic driving force, then nothing is a potential motivating force because there's nothing really new that happens between her death and him killing Sephiroth.

IDGI, old motivations aren't as important as a new one?

With the exception of him knowing himself, but the other motivators- his village, his mother, and Tifa, were all there from the beginning.

But those are just important, if not moreso depending on who you ask.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

\Chris/Cathy are a deliciously fucked up OTP man.

interesting story, i initially read the book as part of a silent hill rp i was doing: i had a librarian who was handed it while wandering about and used it to solve puzzles.

also as part of a not-so-subtle hint that her brother wanted to do her and maybe she should stop herping and derping around and just gtfo silent hill

 

[Roger]

But he did come to know himself, he overcame Sephiroth/Jenova's control over him, why wouldn't the fact that Sephiroth ended almost everything else in his life, along with Aerith not be valid motivation to go after him anymore, now that he was in less danger of killing off some more teammates.

And you know, at Gongaga he was like "Aerith is the only one that can save the world and I'll only make things worse."

After Northern Crater "Aerith's gone and I did make things worse. Gotta see if there's something we can do.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Chris/Cathy are a deliciously fucked up OTP man.

Indeed. I actually read that whole series just to see where that would go.

Well, all the ones that count. I stopped at "Seeds of Yesterday" and just read summaries of "Garden of Shadows" -- and was very glad I did. "Garden of Shadows" is full of retarded retcons and wasn't really written by V.C. Andrews anyway.

 

[Eerie]

TBH, the question as lover or friends is a little biased. If it's Cloud, he says so in AC/C: "nothing's not important", meaning that yes, everyone IS important to him (Tifa and his family, Zack and Aerith for that matter, he didn't think about AVALANCHE at that moment). So yes, I'm prompted to believe that Tifa is more important to him than say Barret or Reeves.

But if it's compared to Zack and Aerith, it's the same, although they have different places in his heart - because they mean different things to him, I believe. Tifa is the lover, Denzel/Marlene are the kids of his family, Zack is the BFF and Aerith is the one friend that he failed to save (let's remember Cloud has a huge complex when it comes to saving people, and yes, I believe that Aerith was a dear friend to Cloud).

Also, no, those who chose lovers over friends aren't dicks, they're grown ups. Thinking that you'll always put someone as dear as a lover on the same level than a friend just means that you haven't found the person that is the most important to you. I think it's natural that, when you are younger, you tend to believe that friends are as important as your lover. But when you've been with someone for years, that s/he's the other parent of your kids, things are little different.

While you will still be there for your friends, the family is a unit that is placed above the rest. And you also learn that your friends are adult and can manage too, and you learn to trust them on the matter that yes, they can live on their own. Being there for them is different than when you were younger. I'm in my thirties and that's how it's been for me, despite me being a friend for people and having been there for them. So it's not condescending, but more how I see things for me AND around me.

 

[Splintered]

How is that not being unmotivated? Fear is another faucet of depression, isn't it?

Okay this is going to be a terrible analogy but it's the only one I can think of: let's say you're a mother and your kid is kidnapped, and you have to go find him. You're scared as shit because you don't know who has him and you don't know where you are but you are motivated to do something about it.

Cloud's is definitely more cerebral that the example, but he admits that a part of him is scared, but he wants to go forward. He's not blindly tearing through the world, but I think that's a consequence of who he is than his want level.

Though by the time he hits Northern crater, he does loose it. That's because he completely loses himself though.

He had drive, just not coming from himself. His friends were pushing him forward.

I think he had drive- but that he could only feel secure if his friends came along.

Cloud
I came here by my own free will... Or so I thought.
However...
...To tell the truth, I'm afraid of myself.
...There is a part of me that I don't understand.
That part that made me give the Black Materia to Sephiroth.
If you hadn't stopped me, Aeris might have been...
...There's something inside of me. A person who is not really me.
That's why I should quit this journey.
Before I do something terrible.
He makes a fist and shakes his head slowly.
But I am going.
He destroyed my hometown five years ago, killed Aeris, and is now trying to destroy the Planet. I'll never forgive... Sephiroth.
I... I must go on.
...I have a favor to ask of you.
Will you all come with me?
...to save me from doing something terrible.

IDGI, old motivations aren't as important as a new one?

They are, and I'm apprehensive of trying to quantify and compare his miseries, but there's something more about Aerith,

Maybe it's just the way I interpreted the game, or the way the game presented it all. But Aerith was

1. the emotional cornerstone of the entire game. That "unfreeze her smile" may not be romantic, but it's a theme that keeps coming back up, more than any other tragedy (of course, the burning of his hometown- but that later became more attributed to his mindfuck).

Of course, Aerith's death becomes a huge and personal motivator for everybody. I think it was in Cosmo Canyon that people begin to admit that they just can't forget her. But Cloud, being the main character and having a unique relationship, if just friendly, to Aerith- it makes sense that there's emphasis placed on that.

2. just more than just a person, she became a symbol of everything he came to regret. He beat her, and then he almost killed her, he was a symbol of the weakness he despised even after years. I honestly don't like the ltd reducing Aerith as just a regret Cloud had, but it is partly true and it is significant.

 

[Roger]

These aren't personality traits... O.o

I don't just call someone awkward and dorky and start talking based on that without saying how i arrived at that opinion of him.

I got bravery if not suicidal selflessness, aggression, ambition, I'm gonna say he's not your sterotypical basementdweller

We never actually get to know 100% Cloud's personal reason for fighting. "A personal memory" can literally be anything. We can make educated guesses, some which make more sense than others, but there isn't really a definitive answer to the matter.

Cloud: No! What I meant was... What are we all fighting for? I want us all to understand that. Save the planet... for the future of the planet... Sure, that's all fine. But really, is that really how it is? For me, this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past. Saving the planet just happens to be part of that. I've been thinking. I think we all are fighting for ourselves. For ourselves... and that someone... something... what ever it is, that's important to us. That's what we're fighting for. That's why we keep up this battle for the planet.

He really needs to spell it out for you to know what this is referring to?

Soldier: Mom... Tifa... my town... give it back... I had so much respect for you... I admired you...

This establishes it aplenty.

I don't really want to make it seem like Cloud = 100% the player.

Sure sounded like that's what you were saying.

I just don't buy the whole "pulled under the rug" argument because it's not exactly effective storytelling when you give very clear options for the player to project "correctly." And the fact that you can still choose things after Cloud regains his identity. And the fact that it's a video game and I feel the writers kept that in mind while producing the script. The extent of the twist during TLS is that Cloud is actually more like the player than he initially seemed.

Tifa: You're sure messed up, Cloud!

Well thanks, I guess.