New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Alessa Gillespie]

In the LTD thread?

WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE?

whoa shit someone reign this horse back in

 

[I Am Not Me]

In the LTD thread?

WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE?

IT'S THE TRUTH OF THE WORLD.

Wait, wat. I don't really know.



All this poasts about forum policy, and Clitos and Cheetos are making me hungry.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I'll also note for the record, if Vendel wasn't such an insufferable prick and was occasionally punished by the staff for being such towards other members, I wouldn't treat him as I do. I treat people in accordance with how they act, if Vendel acts like an asshole ("if", lulz) I'll treat him like one, and if he's allowed to say the types of things he says without consequences then why can't I turn it back on him? If I had a day to spare I would dig through his posting history and return with all the instances he posts links to other forums and YouTube and calls on us to laugh at Cleriths posting there. I'll be fair, he's not the only one who does it, though he does do it a bit from what I can recall. There's no need for that from anyone.

This is an example of how obeying the rules is a two-way street, it's favortism and unfair to do otherwise. I'm seeing a lot of finger pointing and blame shifting when in reality most everyone is guilty, and I'm not excluding myself from that. Frankly, this forum does have a major attitude problem in regards to shipping, and I don't just mean the hostility Vendel and others show. Let's look at the front page.

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

"For some time, the love triangle debate has been in what could aptly be described as its death throes. Today, hopefully, we can perform a mercy killing."

"I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it."

"One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon."

The article title, the picture atop it, and those excerpts paragraph all have an air of "we win, you lose, thanks for playing!" about it, mocking the Clerith pairing and acting as though this revelation is the end of the LTD forever. Considering all the other good, professional-quality articles you guys produce, that's a very immature way to act. If the site really isn't Clerith hostile and Cloti-biased, you shouldn't make a front page celebrating the debunking of anti-Cloti arguments. I'll wager such a tone wouldn't be taken if, say for instance, the Dissidia 012 Ultimania guide said something to support Clerith.

And because I remember this has been brought up before, none of this has anything to do with being "thick-skinned". You can say whatever you want about me and Clerith, it doesn't hurt my feelings, but that doesn't mean I want to look at five pages of Clerith bashing and mocking. I got to know you guys when I joined, but I recall that several of you were very mean to me when I first joined, especially in this thread. There are far more important things to hold grudges and fling insults over than a fictional love triangle, and I say that to both the Cleriths hurt by the insults and the people here doing the insulting. Because this forum does have a bias towards Cloti there's a strong sense of elitism and arrogance at times, and there's no need for such. Ya know what, congratulations, your pairing is canon, you won, here's a medal and a ham, enjoy. You don't need to rub it in the face of Cleriths and mock them for believing something different.

I know you guys aren't like this all the time, and I'll wager many of you aren't like this on purpose and don't realize how hostile you can seem. I recall many instances of lively, civil but still in-depth debating here. I also remember such instances being ruined by the debate taking on a darker, more hostile tone towards me and Clerith. Frankly, I started bashing them on occasion too because it was easier, I adapted. It was less tiring for me to just go along with the insults then protest them, because I'd seen how others who did such were treated. At time it's almost schoolyard-like, you insult Cleriths or a specific user, they understandably protest you doing this, and you mock them for being offended. If this is indeed intended to be a nice, civil forum, then this is the exact opposite of how things should be. The users here have a responsibility to realize how they act and not be so cruel to outsiders and those with differing beliefs, and the staff have a responsibility to make those people feel welcome and keep the people harassing them in-line. And to be perfectly blunt, neither side is doing a good job.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

If you think what you just quoted is insulting then I don't even know how to proceed. You've fucking lost me completely, man, not sorry to say.

 

[I Am Not Me]

If you think what you just quoted is insulting then I don't even know how to proceed. You've fucking lost me completely, man, not sorry to say.

"One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon."

I think this is the insulting part that Drake was talking about.

Then again, that's not the first time anyone's said that in either ship. So... yeah, I don't know.

 

[Dana Scully]

i think the point they're trying to make is not that it's insulting so much as extremely arrogant, and arrogance is a turn-off for potential newbies.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

i think the point they're trying to make is not that it's insulting so much as extremely arrogant, and arrogance is a turn-off for potential newbies.

Exactly. "And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it." The tone is unmistakable - "it's over, you lost, even if you can't accept that." In a way, even the subject of the article is a show of arrogance. "Behold, we have found the one piece of evidence that will end the debate!"

 

[ForceStealer]

Everything said by everyone about not being dicks and insulting people is true. And TLS being perhaps too abrasive is also true. It should be toned down and I believe staff needs to make sure that it does.

I will say though, that I think your reaction to Tres' article is unwarranted. Firstly, its not like we don't put opinion pieces on the front page. And those opinions have insulted things before. But secondly, I don't see this "nyah nyah" tone you think it has. It's called an analysis and that's exactly what it is. It's an analysis to establish a proposition, sure, but its not about gloating. If you think Tres wrote that to gloat about freaking shipping, you're wrong.
Nearly everyone acknowledges the debate is over. How many times has it come up that the 'D' stands for Discussion at this point? The article's picture was fun, not malicious. The article was not immature, and it did not deny anyone to revel in what they like. It states that for the reasons here argued, the debate is over. Just as ANY persuasive essay does.

Maybe I'm the wrong person to comment on this as I hate shipping in all its forms. As far as I'm concerned, what happens in the story is what happens, who cares about anything else, and what's to talk about. FF7 allowed for some sway and that's all well and good. I've defended the presence of this thread before because more than a few worthwhile discussions HAVE spawned from it. But the organization to it, the fact that who you think Cloud loves actually divides you into a group of people is just madness to me as to how that's even possible.

But I'm rambling. Stop being dicks. Stop taking things so seriously. Staff will try to make a more concerted effort to make sure that you do. End of.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Exactly. "And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it." The tone is unmistakable - "it's over, you lost, even if you can't accept that." In a way, even the subject of the article is a show of arrogance. "Behold, we have found the one piece of evidence that will end the debate!"

STATING A FACT =/= ARROGANCE. FFS

Stop being dicks

I thought you liked dicks

And TLS being perhaps too abrasive is also true

 

[I Am Not Me]

...didn't someone also post a pro-Clerith analysis on the front page?

Just checking, because I'm sure it was there. It wasn't just Tres' that was around, but it was Tres' that was popular.

I don't see how TLS' front page is really attempting to be as one-sided on the ship as is claimed. Arrogant, yes. Even then, it's only one person who showcased this so-called arrogance, not the whole site.

 

[Winter]

no that essay is definitely arrogant. sorry it doesn't seem arrogant to you, but it does to most people.

that's what's turning a lot of CxA folks away from coming here, that kind of attitude about shipping just makes us seem smug and douchey and Vendel is always trying to fight every fucking shipper he sees, it just... looks bad on us.

so yeah, while some ~cleriths~ feel ~victimized~, a lot of really cool rational ones won't join because having that kind of attitude about shipping makes us look ridiculously dumb.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Ja, no.
I've seen no case being made for it being arrogant and hostile save for the fact it points out the story = Cloti.

 

[ForceStealer]

But if its an analysis of canon, and that canon happens to point towards Cloud giving Tifa the business, how can you not have a bias?
Or is really as simple as, to take out that closing sentence, and it's perfectly fine?

 

[I Am Not Me]

no that essay is definitely arrogant. sorry it doesn't seem arrogant to you, but it does to most people.

that's what's turning a lot of CxA folks away from coming here, that kind of attitude about shipping just makes us seem smug and douchey and Vendel is always trying to fight every fucking shipper he sees, it just... looks bad on us.

so yeah, while some ~cleriths~ feel ~victimized~, a lot of really cool rational ones won't join because having that kind of attitude about shipping makes us look ridiculously dumb.

So, um, this is relevant to what I said about a pro-Clerith essay how?

I also never said it didn't seem arrogant. I know it was arrogant. I'm not even sure if we're talking about the same thing here. Is it Tres' essay or Ryu's LTD is over essay? Because the latter was certainly arrogant, but the former was alike the pro-Clerith essay that was also on the front page. Which was what I was pointing to.

One or two people in the forum of 300+ actives =/= whole forum. It's too bad not everyone sees that.

 

[Celes Chere]

I had to beg my friend Pandora to join because you guys really built up a bad name for yourselves.

This makes me feel bad. :C Idk if I've said some really nasty things on TLS (that I haven't already apologized for) but I don't want new people to look at it and go:
"Wow, that site is full of assholes"
D:
I really hope your friend ends up liking it here. ;-;

Either that or you're a fucking hypocrit and is using 'admin' authority to make your opinion validated when in reality it's the same pedantic shit you're rallying against.

Woah. OAO Can we calm down... here? Please? Since when has Aaron ever used the fact that he's an Admin to validate his opinions? I mean, he's discussing the situation pretty calmly and open-mindedly from what I have been seeing. I think there's a difference between wearing offensive crap around in your sig, and telling someone to stfu in a silly way (such as a gif or YT video). It's the internet for goodness sake, have a laugh and take a chill pill. Yeah, I think there's a line to be drawn. People should be civil to one another if they EXPECT to be treated nicely in return. The line being drawn at... don't go posting to someone about how they're a stupid moron for *anything*, when they're being a perfectly decent person. If a person is acting like a dumbass, I say by all means call them out on it. That's my two cents on the whole thing...

TLDR version: treat others the way you want to be treated! :B

 

[Winter]

as someone who loves reading essays for all ships it wasn't an essay, it was a smug "we won tee hee" essay, pretty much a long stfu to c/a shippers. which doesn't offend me or anything, it's just... douchey. I don't care or anything I'm just saying that's how it comes off. Look at all the smug ass comments on it too, my god.

And this is no offense to Tres at all, I love the dude. But that article is just so.... really.


aaa I'm sorry I Am Not Me, I didn't even see your post

I don't see how TLS' front page is really attempting to be as one-sided on the ship as is claimed. Arrogant, yes. Even then, it's only one person who showcased this so-called arrogance, not the whole site.

Yeah, it just... I guess it really rubbed off on everyone the wrong way, and it's not the only case of that sort of behavior. A lot of people who post on TNC or wherever carry over that smug attitude and it's just... it doesn't make for good discussion. Like I said, it's easier to discuss things with people like Looneymoon and Hitoshura because they're so laid back and aren't going to be like HURR HURR SHIPPING LOOK HOW CANON IT IS and they don't have a pretentious attitude when they talk about anything relating to shipping. It just gets really old really fast.

That's why Zee, Aki and I get so annoyed in here sometimes because all some of you will do is this smug circlejerk and it's neither constructive nor welcoming. It's self-centered and it's a part of what's given you kind of a bad image even with cool clerith folks.

 

[ForceStealer]

I'm talking about Tres' article, there's another one?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

But if its an analysis of canon, and that canon happens to point towards Cloud giving Tifa the business, how can you not have a bias?
Or is really as simple as, to take out that closing sentence, and it's perfectly fine?

Actually, yes. It's not the content of the article itself that's the problem, that new evidence to support Cloti has come forth, it's the tone of how this new information is presented and the reactions of the staff site. "this will end the LTD, sorry Cleriths, abandon ship!". Some simple rewording of a couple of choice sentences would make it much better.

I don't recall a pro-Clerith front page article, but if it exists I'd like to read it.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Or is really as simple as, to take out that closing sentence, and it's perfectly fine?

You know it isn't, but we can all pretend and post lots of these:

Also, even if there are a few people being assholes, whatever counts as being an asshole by new Cleris standards....WHY IS ALL OF TLS RESPONSIBLE? Isn't this the same as fucking thinking all Cleris = same. Your hypocrisy ppl, I can't even.

Join if you want to. Don't if you don't want to. It's really that simple.

 

[ForceStealer]

I can't say I remember one either. We're not a news organization. We post opinion pieces all the damn time. If someone wants to write a well-crafted essay that has a Clerith bent, have at it. But we're also not about to enforce a fairness doctrine. (also the less shipping articles the better as far as I'm concerned )

I'm kind of in the middle in some of this. We could absolutely be less abrasive. But at the same time, anyone who really isn't gonna join because of that 'abandon ship' line, well...

 

[I Am Not Me]

Oh, I thought we were talking about the LTD is over article.

I've seen Tres' essay, but I've honestly seen worse. Both sides have douchey essays. Both also has long stfu to either ship. What I said with Tres' essay being alike the pro-Clerith one was because... it's the same. Just with opposite ships.

I don't recall a pro-Clerith front page article, but if it exists I'd like to read it.

Ack. Did I dream it up? Was it my imagination? D: I'll look for it. I'm sure it was there.

Also, even if there are a few people being assholes, whatever counts as being an asshole by new Cleris standards....WHY IS ALL OF TLS RESPONSIBLE? Isn't this the same as fucking thinking all Cleris = same. Your hypocrisy ppl, I can't even.

THIS IS WHAT I SAID. D8

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Join if you want to. Don't if you don't want to. It's really that simple.

And then when other forum members wonder why more people aren't joining you can quote yourself to explain why.

I've seen Tres' essay, but I've honestly seen worse. Both sides have douchey essays. Both also has long stfu to either ship.

Absolutely true, I remember the type of content on Devotion. The catch comes when Devotion is dedicated to Clerith, and this site is supposed to be neutral.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

@ Force: It's not about sides. This fucking mentality, FFS. Why do we need a Cleris essay when it's been fucking clear for a while now the story doesn't support it? This kind of pandering is bullshit, imo. It's dishonest.

I expect Clephiroth immediately, then. And you better help.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So, um, this is relevant to what I said about a pro-Clerith essay how?

I also never said it didn't seem arrogant. I know it was arrogant. I'm not even sure if we're talking about the same thing here. Is it Tres' essay or Ryu's LTD is over essay? Because the latter was certainly arrogant, but the former was alike the pro-Clerith essay that was also on the front page. Which was what I was pointing to.

One or two people in the forum of 300+ actives =/= whole forum. It's too bad not everyone sees that.

Maybe I am crazy but I only remember the one that I love page, the analysis of said page and uh. That was it.

Offers to have someone make a clerith essay but i never recall one being posted.

Also the post in question was not by tres but ryu. Really guys, they type in entirely different manners. The quotes posted sound way more like ryu than tres

 

[DrakeClawfang]

@ Force: It's not about sides. This fucking mentality, FFS. Why do we need a Cleris essay when it's been fucking clear for a while now the story doesn't support it? This kind of pandering is bullshit, imo. It's dishonest.

I expect Clephiroth immediately, then. And you better help.

As I said before, Cloti is canon, here's another medal and another ham. Do you really feel the need to rub it in?

That's why Zee, Aki and I get so annoyed in here sometimes because all some of you will do is this smug circlejerk and it's neither constructive nor welcoming. It's self-centered and it's a part of what's given you kind of a bad image even with cool clerith folks.

Agreed. Sometimes you guys just get each other going.