Plot Changes a Possibility?

[Wimbly]

Hi guys.

After having discussions on reddit about the remake I am slightly worried.

There seems to definitely be two types of fans: thise who love Crisis Core and want more of Zack, to detriment of the original. And then those who simply enjoy the original game and are hoping for a faithful remake in terms of plot and character development.

One comment made me think this might be a possibility and that Square-Enix may actually change the original plot regarding when Cloud remembers Zack. The comment reads:

“They are likely going to incorporate him (Zack) in some capacity. In the trailer scene with Cloud and Sephiroth, Sephiroth is mocking Cloud with Zack's last words ("I have a favor to ask. You need to live--" for the both of us. You'll be my living legacy) and Cloud seems pretty shaken up by it.”

Of course I’m hoping this isn’t the case and that Sephiroth isn’t mocking Zack, prompting Clouds response “You bastard!”. Because it’s quite a drastic change in the plot.

What are your thoughts?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think they will inevitably change the plot. In the early, heady days of the Remake excitement way back in 2015, I too feared they might tamper with the original in some way. But now, I'm actively hoping that they do. The way I see this game now (as I've said before), it's almost like they've made a fanfiction of their own game. I don't think the underlying themes or core narrative will be radically different, but I do think they will make a number of changes. This game will be its own game, similar to, but distinct from, the OG. It won't simply be the OG faithfully recreated in HD. And I'm glad, because I don't want that. Some people may think that deviations from the original will "ruin" the game, but that is literally impossible: we'll always have the OG. FFVIIR is a new game, in an old setting, with old friends. And that's good.

 

[Wimbly]

It’s a shame if they change the original plot progression. I’m not after the same game in HD and I’m all for expanded lore but the core plot progression is key, surely, to what makes it FFVII? Clouds whole journey hinges on how the plot progressed didn’t it?

I guess this really is a different game then..

 

[Misterbadguy]

With the project being multiple games, changes in story beats and plot progression makes more sense; let's use Sephiroth as an example. In the original, you don't see Sephiroth whatsoever during the Midgar section of the game. Now that Midgar is an entire game on its own, you can't really have him not appear at all - he's going to be the main villain for the next few games following this one, so they need to establish that he has some relation to Cloud and that he's a viable threat. It also freshens up the plot for fans of the original, stuff like the wraiths haunting Aeris gives old time players something to look forward to figuring out.

I get where you're coming from, don't get me wrong. I don't think there's going to be anyone that agrees fully with all of the changes they're going to make, whatever they may extend to (I don't personally think we should be seeing Sephiroth's face until the Kalm flashback), but it's inevitable there's going to be some more reshuffling.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't see why the core plot progression should change.

What does "story beats" mean? I see this phrase all the time but I don't understand it. I feel it should refer to pacing but I get the sense that it doesn't.

PS - where does it come from? Is it a scripwriting term? How old is it? I have a feeling it's a phrase that was invented to describe something or things for which words/phrases already existed but the inventor and adopters didn't know them.

 

[Misterbadguy]

The way I understand it, story beats are the major points in the plot, so stuff like Pres. Shinra being killed, Cloud giving Sephiroth the black materia, Meteor being summoned. The parts that drive the action.

I should maybe elaborate that I don't think things like that should change drastically or even straight up not happen, but tweaks and changes I think are gonna happen. I could see them showing Shinra being killed by Sephiroth for example, which I wouldn't personally agree with.

 

[FFShinra]

Dont mind changes, provided they make sense to the context of the world of FF7.

What changes they have shown thus far I'm so far either pleased with or, in the case of the ghosts, intrigued as to where the are going with this.

What I do not want is the compilation interfering.

 

[Wimbly]

With the project being multiple games, changes in story beats and plot progression makes more sense; let's use Sephiroth as an example. In the original, you don't see Sephiroth whatsoever during the Midgar section of the game. Now that Midgar is an entire game on its own, you can't really have him not appear at all - he's going to be the main villain for the next few games following this one, so they need to establish that he has some relation to Cloud and that he's a viable threat. It also freshens up the plot for fans of the original, stuff like the wraiths haunting Aeris gives old time players something to look forward to figuring out.

I get where you're coming from, don't get me wrong. I don't think there's going to be anyone that agrees fully with all of the changes they're going to make, whatever they may extend to (I don't personally think we should be seeing Sephiroth's face until the Kalm flashback), but it's inevitable there's going to be some more reshuffling.

Appreciate the responses, thanks guys.

Doesn’t Clouds whole ordeal and his story arc hinge on him not remembering anything at all about his past? The whole first two acts of the game are him literally getting worse and worse until he finally breaks and believes himself to be nothing more than one of the failed ‘clones’. Jenova ensures he can’t recall anything I was led to believe, until the Lifestream section where I’m guessing it has some kind of healing effect?

Remembering more and more about his origins as the game progresses was never a thing. It kinda makes the huge reveal inside the Lifestream a bit redundant doesn’t it?

I feel like I’m overreacting. I hope I am to be honest.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't see why the core plot progression should change.

What does "story beats" mean? I see this phrase all the time but I don't understand it. I feel it should refer to pacing but I get the sense that it doesn't.

PS - where does it come from? Is it a scripwriting term? How old is it? I have a feeling it's a phrase that was invented to describe something or things for which words/phrases already existed but the inventor and adopters didn't know them.

Not sure where it came from, but Misterbadguy described it perfectly.

Doesn’t Clouds whole ordeal and his story arc hinge on him not remembering anything at all about his past? The whole first two acts of the game are him literally getting worse and worse until he finally breaks and believes himself to be nothing more than one of the failed ‘clones’. Jenova ensures he can’t recall anything I was led to believe, until the Lifestream section where I’m guessing it has some kind of healing effect?

Remembering more and more about his origins as the game progresses was never a thing. It kinda makes the huge reveal inside the Lifestream a bit redundant doesn’t it?

That is what was happening in the original game, though, too. Cloud's subconscious kept trying to jog his memory (e.g. reminding him of the last time he "slept in a bed like this" and asking him why he and Tifa didn't get to properly see each other in Nibelheim five years earlier -- even explicitly telling him to wake up and go ask her about it).

 

[pxp]

I made my peace with the inevitable changes as soon as I saw the subtly different emphasis on how Aerith gives Cloud the flower after the “State of Play” trailer last month. And indeed, what we’ve since seen shows just how subtle that was in comparison to the likely amendments we can anticipate in future.

 

[OdaDaimyO]

This question is pure theoretical, but what about Aerith becomes a full member of Avalanche, and having actual interactions with Biggs, Wedge & Jessie?

 

[rimavelle]

I don't think Cloud remembers Zack at this point. Also notice that:
We don't actually SEE Seph speak in this scene.
There are two cuts between the dialog and Clouds response.
So he may not say it there at all or Cloud responds to something else Seph said.
Cloud knowing who Zack is would destroy the biggest plottwist in the game, that's something different than meeting some characters in different places or adding few... ghosts.

 

[Suzaku]

It's definitely being changed and expanded. Specifically, they seem to be making some alterations based on the fact that players will go in knowing some of the major plot points, and they can adjust how the story is delivered to play around with those things.

Max gave a pretty detailed rundown of the demo last night and said that just about all the dialogue has been changed and expanded to give the characters more personality, nuance, and interactions. There are new scenes setting up the friction between Barret and Cloud, for example, and scenes where Barret talks about Tifa vouching for him, despite her not being introduced yet. Lots of additional banter with the crew, in general. Also mentioned an added scenes of Heidegger and President Shinra watching the crew infilitrate the reactor on security cameras.

So there's going to be a lot of new stuff. That said, I expect them to maintain all the key story beats.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I seriously am not seeing what reference to Zack is in that Sephiroth illusion from the trailer.

For one, Sephiroth is not quoting Zack at all. Not even close.

Sephiroth says, "I have a favor to ask of you. Run away. You have to leave. You have to live... Hold onto that hatred.."

None of that quote resembles Zack's last words to Cloud in Crisis Core at all.

Zack says, "For the both of us... That's right... You're gonna.. You're gonna... live... Youll be my living legacy."

There's no reference to Zack in Sephiroth's words at all, except a (mocking) concern for Cloud's life.

That's easily explained as Sephiroth taunting and goading Cloud to continue fighting and pushing forward on his path with AVALANCHE. He's employing basic level reverse psychology.

I don't see how this can be construed as a shoehorned reference to Crisis Core when it doesn't resemble the line in question at all.

I sincerely doubt the Remake is opting to remove the most dramatic plot twist aside from Aerith's death from the game. How would that make sense?

Cloud is calling himself a SOLDIER 1st Class. Unless they've decided to portray Cloud as an outright liar, the entire crux of the plot twist involves Cloud honestly believing that to be true. And that means forgetting Zack.

I just don't see where this person is coming from. In the end, yes. There will be changes. Superficial changes, changes to the edges and presentation of the plot, and expansions or reimaginings of certain plot lines. But the core story will be the same. I'm not seeing anything dramatic being changed or altered aside from this chapter's length and depth of the Midgar portion of the game.

Even the most dramatic change, the introduction of the "guardians of destiny", just looks to be a flourished and expanded presentation of Sephiroth's influence and powers for manipulating Cloud, through his will.

I don't see anything to be worried about at this point.

 

[ForceStealer]

I have been wondering where this idea that Sephiroth is quoting Zack is coming from, when Zack never said those lines...

 

[OWA-2]

I have been wondering where this idea that Sephiroth is quoting Zack is coming from, when Zack never said those lines...

Maybe in the japanese dialogue he is? Quoting Zack, I mean.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It could easily end up being that some of those are Zack's last words for this rendition. We have no way of knowing right now. At the very least, "You have to live" sounds like something Zack might have said then. Certainly he expressed that sentiment, even if not the precise wording.

I also want to point out that Seph quoting Zack doesn't necessitate Cloud remembering him. In the original, Seph said plenty of mysterious things to Cloud that he understood while Cloud didn't at the time. That's just what villains do.

Of course, it would be weird for Seph to quote Zack at all since Cloud's weakness -- and thus, Sephiroth's intent for Cloud -- is better served by him not remembering, so saying something of such important reference would be foolish. But then those lines are still weird regardless. Likely as they're meant to be.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well sure, anyone could be quoting anyone in this version, that doesn't seem like very firm evidence, lol. Maybe Sephiroth is quoting Palmer

I think Sephiroth just wants him doing his bidding and not necessarily risking his life with this AVALANCHE stuff.

 

[Wimbly]

@Makoeyes987 I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. People on reddit seem intent on finding stuff and relating it to Cloud starting to remember Zack. Basically ‘look, look, that there is referencing Zack!’ And it grew quite tiresome.

Your comment was a refreshing read.

 

[rimavelle]

@Makoeyes987
Your comment was a refreshing read.

I find this whole forum to be refreshing after Reddit.

 

[Keveh Kins]

^This, I love how chill and civil TLS is, and also how upbeat the tone is

 

[ForceStealer]

Sometimes I think of participating in FF/FF7 communities elsewhere on the internet, never having been a redditor or anything. But I usually quickly realize it's a mistake.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It could easily end up being that some of those are Zack's last words for this rendition. We have no way of knowing right now. At rhe very least, "You have to live" sounds like something Zack might have said then. Certainly he expressed that sentiment, even if not the precise wording.

I also want to point out that Seph quoting Zack doesn't necessitate Cloud remembering him. In the original, Seph said plenty of mysterious things to Cloud that he understood while Cloud didn't at the time. That's just what villains do.

Of course, it would be weird for Seph to quote Zack at all since Cloud's weakness -- and thus, Sephiroth's intent for Cloud -- is better served by him not remembering, so saying something of such important reference would be foolish. But then those lines are still weird regardless. Likely as they're meant to be.

We may not know if the writers are trying to change Zack's but this classifies as a major plot line change that simply has no real point or purpose except to spoil and adversely affect the narrative.

I mean the Remake will be different but I just don't see it being that different. Not at expense of this being a good remake.

Also, I don't find Sephiroth's words to Cloud weirder than usual for him lol. I mean, is it really? I don't believe Sephiroth cares for Cloud's safety or wants him to run away, it's all disingenuous.

The smirk and tone of his voice illustrates it quite well. Sephiroth said all those things to provoke an aggressive response from Cloud and keep his memory of him at the forefront of his mind.

That line, "Hold onto that hatred..." Gives up the game Sephiroth is playing. The more Cloud hates and moves forward towards him, the more Cloud is his unwitting puppet.

It's all about the mindfuck.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

We may not know if the writers are trying to change Zack's but this classifies as a major plot line change that simply has no real point or purpose except to spoil and adversely affect the narrative.

What would it spoil? That Sephiroth likes to taunt Cloud and says mysterious things?

It couldn't have any obvious meaning to anyone inside the game except Sephiroth, and no one outside the game except people who already know the plot of the original game.

Also, I don't find Sephiroth's words to Cloud weirder than usual for him ...

You don't say.

 

[Wimbly]

^This, I love how chill and civil TLS is, and also how upbeat the tone is

I think the key is respect. No one respects anyone on other forums. Whereas here, people seem to show a little more respect to each other.