SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

[Kain424]

They’re trying to have both at the same time, both an Ultimate FF7 Edition of Compilation Cohesiveness, AND an unchained new story that is free to huck it all for the purposes of expressing the artists’ current vision. In that way it reminds me of the Star Wars sequels.

I don't think this is wrong. There is definitely evidence pointing toward something massively diverging. The butterfly effect applies to fictional universes just as much as the natural world. Even a seemingly small change, like certain members of Avalanche surviving the Midgar events could eventually cause a considerable divergence.

As for Star Wars, I always say it's been bad since 1978. There are those who say similar things about Final Fantasy VII because of the Compilation. So perhaps the comparison is more apt than I am even willing to admit.

 

[Clement Rage]

If there are no fundamental changes, then the Whispers plot is pointless.Most likely options seem to be the following:

1. The OG timeline is the good universe, you assholes! You wrecked everything with your thoughtless meddling, now fix it.
2. Now that we're free of the chains of fate, we can finally set everything to rights.
3. Both of the above.

 

[Kain424]

If there are no fundamental changes, then the Whispers plot is pointless.

Only if you think of them as some sort of plot driving necessity, rather than a thematic plot device.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The point of this is to say that the concept of Stamp seems to be derived directly from Crisis Core. Even though we never saw or heard about "Stamp" specifically, looking at Crisis Core may be useful for stamp part 2 theories.

There is a ton of world-building stuff in Remake that originated in Crisis Core. To the point of Remake being filled with Crisis Core easter eggs if you know what to look for.

The more I look through Crisis Core's NPC dialogue, the more Remake ideas and general take on things I find in Crisis Core itself. To the point that a lot of "new" stuff in Remake doesn't come across so much as being "new" as it comes across as being "already a thing in the Compilation".

The more someone is familiar with the Compilation, the more Remake feels like it "fits" with the rest of the FFVII in tone.

 

[Clement Rage]

Only if you think of them as some sort of plot driving necessity, rather than a thematic plot device

Thematically, defeating them is about breaking free of the chains of fate making them follow the path of the previous story. If you symbolically break free from the set path but then follow it anyway, that kind of makes that plot empty space.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's silly, because plenty of stories use that exact thematic set up to show how freedom from an implied "destiny" doesn't necessarily imply the consequence or the end result will not happen anyways. Because all roads may lead to the same future, fate ghosts or not.

Terminator, The Time Machine, Final Fantasy VIII and plenty of other stories lead with the possibility of changing the future and perhaps even changing it, yet being unable to escape the inevitable consequence because forces beyond their control simply refuse to change. And then it's not about the end result of "changing the future," it's about doing what can be done to survive and mitigate the consequences of said future. The journey (personal and impersonal) is where the meaning lies, not whether or not the "destiny" changes.

The success or failure of changing fate doesn't nullify the character growth, efforts and experiences realized to live according to the character's own choices and beliefs. Even in the face of an unmovable future, how they deal with it is how they assert their freedom.

 

[Fiz]

That's silly, because plenty of stories use that exact thematic set up to show how freedom from an implied "destiny" doesn't necessarily imply the consequence or the end result will not happen anyways. Because all roads lead to the same future.

Terminator, The Time Machine, Final Fantasy VIII and plenty of other stories lead with the possibility of changing the future and perhaps even changing it, yet being unable to escape the inevitable consequence because forces beyond their control simply refuse to change. And then it's not about the end result of "changing the future," it's about doing what can be done to survive and mitigate the consequences of said future.

The chance of changing fate, even if it doesn't change, doesn't nullify the character growth or efforts realized to live according to the character's own choices and beliefs. Even in the face of an unmovable future, how they deal with it is how they assert their freedom.

I agree with this, I think the argument that Remake will close on the same terms as OG is a very possible theory. It’s why I’m 50/50 over whether certain changes I think will persist the ending.

What seems unlikely is that they’ll play Remake out as per OG without change along the way, else there is no payoff for the whole defying destiny thing.

In other words... What you’re suggesting works better if destiny’s lack of being averted occurs towards the back end of the story.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Most Time-travel stories ask people to really not think about the roll of "fate" or "destiny" because they really run on a predestination. Human will is always subservient to the reality of what "actually happened" to create the future. Any "choice" to change the past is an illusion most of the time. People might *think* they are choosing something different, but in reality, they don't chose. Or rather, they chose the same thing they will always chose to make the future they came from come about. The first Terminator movie runs on this kind of "choice" as does FFVIII.

If FFVII manages to do a "let's try changing the past" story and the future *does* change wildly, I'll be very happy it managed to subvert the most common Time-Travel trope/plot. Incidently, this is why Back To The Future sticks out from a lot of other time-travel stories. Free will matters *a lot* in BTTF. People make real choices that really do effect the future (or the present as the case sometimes is).

 

[a_apple 2.0]

I agree with this, I think the argument that Remake will close on the same terms as OG is a very possible theory. It’s why I’m 50/50 over whether certain changes I think will persist the ending.

What seems unlikely is that they’ll play Remake out as per OG without change along the way, else there is no payoff for the whole defying destiny thing.

In other words... What you’re suggesting works better if destiny’s lack of being averted occurs towards the back end of the story.

The defying destiny part will be probably about humanity not getting erased 500 years later.
My guess is that Aerith gets offed at one point in part 3 which will make the team go like 'fuck is it even possible to defeat destiny, bros??' Since even the last cetra couldn't escape her predestined fate, so it will make everything more uncertain for the player, I'm sure at one point Aerith (or Seph) will reveal that if everything goes the same way as it did before it will mean that mankind will be doomed in the end, so with Aerith's death it would be almost a grantee that they are fucked now.

So we got the same story as before (Aerith's death BAD) just differently packaged (You let her die so everything will happen again dude lol), because if you think about it in the og it wasn't clear to the player that Aerith was able to activate holy before she died, that was only revealed later so we really could hit that narrative low point in Junon, when you see meteor in the sky for the first time and there is no hope to stop it.

So this time we need something else, and that something else will probably be the question if it's possible to change humanities fate or if this entire thing will repeat itself ad nauseam.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@a_apple 2.0
Humanity wasn't wiped out, though, so there's no need to try changing anything in the big picture. That's the biggest irony at work.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

@a_apple 2.0
Humanity wasn't wiped out, though, so there's no need to try changing anything in the big picture. That's the biggest irony at work.

Aren't Sephiroth/Jenova polluting the lifestream which turns it into negative lifestream which means with time the entire lifestream will be corrupted?

 

[Clement Rage]

Changing fate is Skynet and Ultimecia's goal, the leads are trying to preserve it. They take the opportunity to slow it down in T2, but the primary goal is more 'survive' than alter the timeline.

Spoiler: Terminator Digression

One of the interesting things about the franchise is how Skynet learns from its mistakes.

T800 and T1000 go after Sarah and John first. The t1000 can't be destroyed with a crusher. In t3, not only does Skynet factor in to its plans that there will be a terminator playing defence, it uses John's soft spot for the T800 to assassinate him in the future. Also, it succeeds in killing some of John's future prominent lieutenants, so the future is not completely set in stone. By Genysis, it has realised John's just too unkillable and tries to exploit that by letting Kyle go back and then hijacking him to beat the system.

(haven't seen Dark Fate)

Time travel stories generally need some kind of fate, because otherwise the butterfly effect destroys everything. There's no point in consciously changing timelines, because the unintended consequences go off the chain.

Edit: Japanese speakers, I know the Whispers are 'feelers' in Japanese, but does that carry the same connotations as in English, where 'feeler' could be feeling emotions or an insects way of perceiving the world?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Edit: Japanese speakers, I know the Whispers are 'feelers' in Japanese, but does that carry the same connotations as in English, where 'feeler' could be feeling emotions or an insects way of perceiving the world?

Well, Nomura did acknowledge "The word 'feeler' means to sense and to touch, but at the moment I cannot say anymore than that."

Why, what you thinkin'?

 

[OWA-2]

In every story where the characters try to change fate, just to find out that their actions were already written by fate, they never fought and beat the physical concept of fate itself, like in Remake.

It wouldn't make any sense for the characters, at the end of Remake, to find out that everything they did was already destined to happen, since they have already destroyed the concept itself(or at least, destroyed the things that enforced it). They can't be destined to do something, if destiny doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Clement Rage]

I'm thinking about whether the intended implications are 'attached to something bigger' or 'they feel fate and respond to it', both, or neither.

 

[Eerie]

Well, Nomura did acknowledge "The word 'feeler' means to sense and to touch, but at the moment I cannot say anymore than that."

Thinking really hard about Aerith's line who loses a part of herself every time they touch her right now (>_< )

 

[ForceStealer]

*early 2000s meme-ing intensifies*

 

[Clement Rage]

I judge every time travel story by the standards of Legacy of Kain, and so every time travel story is found wanting.

 

[Odysseus]

No matter what they do, some people won't be satisfied. Nobody is ever happy and people love to argue. If there's anything at all I've learned in the past three days, it's never get too attached to your own fan theories, you're only setting yourself up for anger and disappointment.

 

[Ite]

No matter what they do, some people won't be satisfied.

I agree, but although they were probably damned either way, I still think they made the wrong call. Had they released an actual Final Fantasy VII remake, expanding Avalanche/Wall Market/etc. as they like but without the Whispers or the complete insanity of the finale, I don’t think anyone old or new would have reached the end and thought “gee whiz this didn’t have enough time travel.”

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's true, Odysseus. I mean, I am never satisfied by any film adaptation of Austen's novels, either. What's also true is that the creators themselves are never satisfied either. Art is inherently incompletely satisfying.

 

[Odysseus]

Has anyone else started to notice the bizarre trend that the longer a story goes on, the more likely it is that time travel will get involved?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's the only way you can avoid having your characters get older. But also, unless the entire story has been planned from the beginning, time travel is often a plot necessity in order to re-set the past so it can lead to the desired outcome the creators finally decided upon.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

Has anyone else started to notice the bizarre trend that the longer a story goes on, the more likely it is that time travel will get involved?

That, or they pull a Splinter Cell: Blacklist and make the character twenty years younger... with the same voice... and even more pronounced grey hair.

 

[Shademp]

Has anyone else started to notice the bizarre trend that the longer a story goes on, the more likely it is that time travel will get involved?

Instead of power creep it's "scope creep". Multiverses and time travel is typically the final or penultimate step, depending on if you consider "ALL REALITY IS AT RISK" on the same tier as- or above time travel and multiverse shenanigans.