SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

[The Twilight Mexican]

Had they released an actual Final Fantasy VII remake, expanding Avalanche/Wall Market/etc. as they like but without the Whispers or the complete insanity of the finale, I don’t think anyone old or new would have reached the end and thought “gee whiz this didn’t have enough time travel.”

There would have been those two people, Ite. I guess their remake experience means nothing to you??

Has anyone else started to notice the bizarre trend that the longer a story goes on, the more likely it is that time travel will get involved?

Unless it's the "Terminator" franchise, where it was the opposite.

 

[Clement Rage]

I can't say I've noticed that trend. Only FFXIII series, really.

I wouldn't be all that concerned with a straight remake with no deviations. But then, most of the reason I got it was so I wouldn't have to lock myself out of TLS for 6 months.

 

[LNK]

If there's anything at all I've learned in the past three days, it's never get too attached to your own fan theories, you're only setting yourself up for anger and disappointment.

Which is exactly why my theory about the games is the creators are going to do whatever they want. Can never be wrong about that one haha

 

[KindOfBlue]

I agree, but although they were probably damned either way, I still think they made the wrong call. Had they released an actual Final Fantasy VII remake, expanding Avalanche/Wall Market/etc. as they like but without the Whispers or the complete insanity of the finale, I don’t think anyone old or new would have reached the end and thought “gee whiz this didn’t have enough time travel.”

I’m pretty sure there would be no remake if they felt all they had to offer was expanding stuff that they already know everybody likes, so while nobody asked for time travel, it seems for most people it’s like “well since we’re here, I gotta know what’s next”

 

[Kain424]

I agree, but although they were probably damned either way, I still think they made the wrong call. Had they released an actual Final Fantasy VII remake, expanding Avalanche/Wall Market/etc. as they like but without the Whispers or the complete insanity of the finale, I don’t think anyone old or new would have reached the end and thought “gee whiz this didn’t have enough time travel.”

This is THE THING here. The issue. Even if, ultimately, it's not time travel, the Whispers represent a kind of wild new addition that wrecks portions of the narrative as set by the original game. We will never know how a "true" remake would have fared because now we have this one instead. That dream is gone forever. And before the first schmuck mutters anything about Ever Crisis, it should be understood that is not really a true remake either, but a sort mobile lore tie-in for the Compilation.

I like a lot of Remake. I think the game is a good game. I like the characters, the voice acting, the look and the style, and I love the gameplay. But with all of the new additions, it's not really Final Fantasy VII now is it? When Aerith was talking about how going through that little timey-whimey portal would change who they are... I just was sitting there asking why. Why would anyone want that? We didn't spend over twenty years asking for Final Fantasy VII characters to not be Final Fantasy VII characters. We wanted Final Fantasy VII to be the best Final Fantasy VII that Final Fantasy VII could be. We have the original game. We want that game... but better.

So wrapping this back... time travel feels wrong for this game. Sure, it's a fantasy story with magic co-existing next to sci-fi cyberpunk elements. I get that it's "already wacky." But it's also pretty cohesive. So if that's the direction they're going, it just feels unnecessary and largely unwanted.

So predictions... well, if that's the road they take, I think it's just going to echo Aerith's sentiments.

Every time they stray from what Final Fantasy VII is, they'll lose some of us. Maybe they'll gain enough new fans to make up the numbers. Maybe they won't. I don't know. I hope it's worth it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As time goes on, I feel more and more like a jerk about sentiments such as yours, @Kain424 -- because I become increasingly dismissive of these feelings from folks I love and respect. XD

I want everyone to be real about it: we were not only never going to get the FFVII you describe, but I'd wager my bank account that most of you didn't want the FFVII you describe either.

You didn't want to see the Tiny Bronco scenario from the original game.

You didn't want the Mr. Dolphin scenario.

You didn't want Cait Sith to muscle his way into the team on the basis of seeing how a fortune played out, then for Cloud to be like "But who was spy??"

You didn't want Cloud snowboarding a short time after Aerith was murdered.

You didn't want the nation of Wutai to only ever be represented by this one village on a handful of screens.

You didn't want Yuffie and Vincent to be optional.

You probably didn't want winning a race on giant birds to be justification for release from prison within hours of murdering half a dozen people at a theme park.

You wanted Dio to put on some fucking clothes.

Now, we've all heard the reasons none of that counts as undermining what FFVII is or drawing the Ship of Theseus metaphor into play -- e.g. because

-- but that allowance never seems to get applied to the sensibilities and mindsets of the people making the thing. Even if we allow for the ship to still be the Ship of Theseus with the other factors taken into account, the passage of time within the creative well has to be taken into account as much as the technology that would be siphoning from there, doesn't it?

And what of the passage of time for the buckets -- i.e. us?

 

[Wol]

As time goes on, I feel more and more like a jerk about sentiments such as yours, @Kain424 -- because I become increasingly dismissive of these feelings from folks I love and respect. XD

I want everyone to be real about it: we were not only never going to get the FFVII you describe, but I'd wager my bank account that most of you didn't want the FFVII you describe either.

You didn't want to see the Tiny Bronco scenario from the original game.

You didn't want the Mr. Dolphin scenario.

You didn't want Cait Sith to muscle his way into the team on the basis of seeing how a fortune played out, then for Cloud to be like "But who was spy??"

You didn't want Cloud snowboarding a short time after Aerith was murdered.

You didn't want the nation of Wutai to only ever be represented by this one village on a handful of screens.

You didn't want Yuffie and Vincent to be optional.

You probably didn't want winning a race on giant birds to be justification for release from prison within hours of murdering half a dozen people at a theme park.

You wanted Dio to put on some fucking clothes.

Now, we've all heard the reasons none of that counts as undermining what FFVII is or drawing the Ship of Theseus metaphor into play -- e.g. because

-- but that allowance never seems to get applied to the sensibilities and mindsets of the people making the thing. Even if we allow for the ship to still be the Ship of Theseus with the other factors taken into account, the passage of time within the creative well has to be taken into account as much as the technology that would be siphoning from there, doesn't it?

And what of the passage of time for the buckets -- i.e. us?

Honestly, I would rather have those things than spooky time-travel ghosts and artificial plot developments lol but I get your point.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Lmao and when put like that, I get your point as well.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

As time goes on, I feel more and more like a jerk about sentiments such as yours, @Kain424 -- because I become increasingly dismissive of these feelings from folks I love and respect. XD

I want everyone to be real about it: we were not only never going to get the FFVII you describe, but I'd wager my bank account that most of you didn't want the FFVII you describe either.

I would have to agree -- FFVII, like Fallout: New Vegas, was the byproduct of a set of unique developmental challenges and circumstances (the initial plan to release on SNES, the 3-disc format, the "everything and the kitchen sink" approach, the journey to push the boundaries of what could be done in an RPG at the time) that ensured it truly was an "everything left on the table" scenario.

As much as I would be interested in playing a 1:1 remake, I recognize that is functionally impossible, both for story purposes (you don't just pump manpower, resources and multiple years into designing an exact carbon copy of the original story), but because it has design sensibilities that just can't -- or won't -- jive with the kind of release schedule this game is going for.

Hell, the remake's design philosophy is completely different -- minor rewards/speech options are generally tied to completionist tendencies for each "act" of the game, whereas the original went out of its way to feature sprawling side content and optional sequences that many players still don't know about, all held together with the coding equivalent of spit and glue.

Fort Condor has always been one of my favorite sidequests in any RPG, period, but I recognize that it's essentially an entire minigame with a completely different control scheme (one of several minigames that are basically full-fledged products of their own) that were kind of shoved into VII. If you go to the effort to do every single match (15 in total, IIRC), that means backtracking long distances, at parts of the plot where you're discouraged from doing so (in Cosmo Canyon on Disc 1, for instance). That is not to say I don't love the content -- I adore all of it, but I recognize that the sensibility of the 90s is not the same as it is now.

I can take the tradeoff of new story elements and expanded sequences (tied in such a way that more players get to experience it) if it means getting a pseudo-remake that has each part delivered with care and thoughtfulness.

 

[Kain424]

That kind of is the point, isn't it?

You didn't want to see the Tiny Bronco scenario from the original game.

You didn't want the Mr. Dolphin scenario.

You didn't want Cait Sith to muscle his way into the team on the basis of seeing how a fortune played out, then for Cloud to be like "But who was spy??"

You didn't want Cloud snowboarding a short time after Aerith was murdered.

You didn't want the nation of Wutai to only ever be represented by this one village on a handful of screens.

You didn't want Yuffie and Vincent to be optional.

You probably didn't want winning a race on giant birds to be justification for release from prison within hours of murdering half a dozen people at a theme park.

You wanted Dio to put on some fucking clothes.

As I said, I want all of that. But done better.

Though to be completely fair, I do not think this is a completely dead dream. I think there is every possibility we'll still get a great game out of this. I like Remake's Midgar far more than I ever liked Final Fantasy VII's Midgar. So this could still be just about everything I want it to be.

But if we're being straight-shooters in here, how dullminded and cynical is it to use the decades old hopes and wishes of a remake to push a completely different game? If they veer into a completely different territory suddenly, what is the real point? This isn't some tiny studio trying to get an indie title out of the gate. This company, this team, all the developers. They have a gigantic platform with the budget to back it if they want to make new games and new stories. They know damn well what they're playing with here.

So I honestly have a hard time even believing that's what they'll do. It really makes no sense. They trolled the fandom for too long to not at least try to make the very best remake they can make. I think the Whispers were a mistake, but I also think they nailed most of the first part of this project. And if that's the ratio we can expect going forward with the rest of the game, I'm actually okay with it.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

This is THE THING here. The issue. Even if, ultimately, it's not time travel, the Whispers represent a kind of wild new addition that wrecks portions of the narrative as set by the original game. We will never know how a "true" remake would have fared because now we have this one instead. That dream is gone forever. And before the first schmuck mutters anything about Ever Crisis, it should be understood that is not really a true remake either, but a sort mobile lore tie-in for the Compilation.

I like a lot of Remake. I think the game is a good game. I like the characters, the voice acting, the look and the style, and I love the gameplay. But with all of the new additions, it's not really Final Fantasy VII now is it? When Aerith was talking about how going through that little timey-whimey portal would change who they are... I just was sitting there asking why. Why would anyone want that? We didn't spend over twenty years asking for Final Fantasy VII characters to not be Final Fantasy VII characters. We wanted Final Fantasy VII to be the best Final Fantasy VII that Final Fantasy VII could be. We have the original game. We want that game... but better.

So wrapping this back... time travel feels wrong for this game. Sure, it's a fantasy story with magic co-existing next to sci-fi cyberpunk elements. I get that it's "already wacky." But it's also pretty cohesive. So if that's the direction they're going, it just feels unnecessary and largely unwanted.

So predictions... well, if that's the road they take, I think it's just going to echo Aerith's sentiments.
View attachment 9675
Every time they stray from what Final Fantasy VII is, they'll lose some of us. Maybe they'll gain enough new fans to make up the numbers. Maybe they won't. I don't know. I hope it's worth it.

This post swayed me with the level of pure anger and frustration it's oozing out.
FUCK SE
FUCK REQUELS
AND FUCK THE COMPILATION
This is now the new thread theme

 

[Kain424]

Well, as I said, if they keep the quality up, I'll be ok. I have my frustrations, but I have to believe they mean well with Remake.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Well, as I said, if they keep the quality up, I'll be ok. I have my frustrations, but I have to believe they mean well with Remake.

It's okay bro, I actually really love the remake BUT it annoys the fuck out of me when I see people trying to argue every criticism other people have with it away, shit that is objectively bad like all the padding, time travel nonsense or shitty side quest etc so I don't mind when I see people blow some steam off about shit that bothered them

 

[Kain424]

Fair enough. And I actually agree. I think there is plenty of valid criticism out there.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

shit that is objectively bad like... (the) shitty side quest, etc

Yeah, but... the original FF7 didn't have any side content for the equivalent portion of the game (1st Midgar). It was an almost completely-linear experience all the way through, with the only real diverging paths occurring in the Midgar Building approach. (And no, I don't count Wall Market in that, considering half of the items are basically required/plot-mandated anyway.)

And even that is subjective, as there's stuff they put in the new remake sidequests (the bonus Cloud/Tifa scene at the apartment before leaving for the second reactor, Cloud proving that he's good with kids via the interactions at the Orphanage / giving them a "discount" on his work to slay the Toad King, the plot-mandated visit to Jessie's house on the upper plate and Avalanche lore expansion, tying Aerith's choice of dress to how many quests you've done [and the kids stepping up to help], Chadley's Hard Mode-exclusive cutscene) that works very effectively. The original had none of that.

Are there sidequests in the remake that are dumb? Absolutely. Does it diminish the sum total? Not at all, considering it added a boatload of content where there was none.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Yeah, but... the original FF7 didn't have any side content for the equivalent portion of the game (1st Midgar). It was an almost completely-linear experience all the way through, with the only real diverging paths occurring in the Midgar Building approach. (And no, I don't count Wall Market in that, considering half of the items are basically required/plot-mandated anyway.)

And even that is subjective, as there's stuff they put in the new remake sidequests (the bonus Cloud/Tifa scene at the apartment before leaving for the second reactor, Cloud proving that he's good with kids via the interactions at the Orphanage / giving them a "discount" on his work to slay the Toad King, the plot-mandated visit to Jessie's house on the upper plate and Avalanche lore expansion, tying Aerith's choice of dress to how many quests you've done [and the kids stepping up to help], Chadley's Hard Mode-exclusive cutscene) that works very effectively. The original had none of that.

Are there sidequests in the remake that are dumb? Absolutely. Does it diminish the sum total? Not at all, considering it added a boatload of content where there was none.

Yeah, but with the og we got the entire game, it was perfectly paced and gave you a ton of shit to do, if they are cutting up the base game in different parts and need to pad it with shit then they better make sure those new elements are fun as fuck. But since those side missions sucked and were boring I think it's fair to say they weren't able to pull that off.
It's really not like I hated the remake, I legit loved it, the characters, the vibe, the battle system, the music all of it is 10/10 but I don't want that to cloud my opinion on things that were poorly done. You don't want to become that one RLM meme

 

[LNK]

But since those side missions sucked and were boring I think it's fair to say they weren't able to pull that off.

The exact same can be said about the OG though. "Different strokes for different folks."

Also, whether you ask questions or not, idk if they make a difference. Especially if the end result is buying the product

 

[a_apple 2.0]

The exact same can be said about the OG though. "Different strokes for different folks."

Also, whether you ask questions or not, idk if they make a difference. Especially if the end result is buying the product

First of all The og is over 20 years old and contains the entire FF7 experience in one game, I never heard anyone before complain over pacing issues its suppose to have but on the other hand I think it's fair to say a lot of people shit on the new sidequests we got in the remake.

Secondly I'm not gonna eat up shit just because it has the ff7 logo on it, I liked the remake despised it's flaws cuz the characters were so fantastic and lovable, I'm not in some cult where it's VERBOTEN to questions shit. SE isn't entitled to my money

 

[KindOfBlue]

I always think back to some of the things the devs had said whenever this particular conversation comes up:

We, the development team, our fans, and the state of the world have continued to change over the past 23 years. While the world is undergoing dramatic changes, we thought that remaking the game based only on the same merits as 23 years ago may evoke “nostalgia,” but would not deliver on the element of “surprise” that is innate to Final Fantasy.
- Kitase, from IGN

FFVII is special, and we cannot ‘surpass it’ just by making it look pretty. The original version is a product of 1997, so to look at it now you can feel its age in the graphics and game systems. But those things also make it VII, and it’s still got support even today, which is probably not going to change. So for something like FFVII, I don’t think merely redoing the graphics is enough to make something you can get excited by.
- Nomura, from Famitsu

Nomura says that Final Fantasy VII Remake’s release does not overwrite the original Final Fantasy VII. The original is the origin, and VII Remake is only possible because of the original.
- From Famitsu, translated by Frontline Gaming

I think people are finding that the vision of the remake in their heads that they’ve been asking for just doesn’t exist, nor was it ever something the devs were ever interested in making. Personally, I believe that remake is still in here even if mixed with other stuff but for those that just wanted new graphics and gameplay, is there really much else to say beyond “tough break”? I wonder if wanting something like this to be remade in the first place when the OG is so readily available may have been a misstep.

I’ll admit I really don’t care much for the idea of remakes myself and I generally find them redundant so I’m very much in that camp of “do whatever the hell you want”, though I get the frustration of those who wanted something more straightforward. I’ve seen some say that they would be fine if they knew about it before it came out, but I’m not convinced that knowing in advance would make that much of a difference to those who don’t like how this turned out. Considering how well the game was received though, they’re probably not worried about losing fans anyways. All I can say is, it is what it is. Here’s to hoping the project comes around for more of you.

 

[LNK]

First of all The og is over 20 years old and contains the entire FF7 experience in one game, I never heard anyone before complain over pacing issues its suppose to have but on the other hand I think it's fair to say a lot of people shit on the new sidequests we got in the remake.

Yes, it's over 20 years old, but what does that have to do with whether or not pacing/sidequests were bad? For example, I hated Chocobo racing/breeding. Super boring. To other people, they loved it. There are plenty of things that were dumb about the OG, and people on non FF7 forums, have let it be known. Which is why I said "different strokes, different folks."

Secondly I'm not gonna eat up shit just because it has the ff7 logo on it, I liked the remake despised it's flaws cuz the characters were so fantastic and lovable, I'm not in some cult where it's VERBOTEN to questions shit. SE isn't entitled to my money

I would hope you wouldn't eat up everything with ff7 logo on it. 1st soldier looks like a crappy game in my opinion. Those type of games are not my cup of tea though.

For whatever flaws remake has, I think it's actually leaps and bounds better than the 1st midgar section of the OG. I refuse to compare it to the whole OG.

 

[Kain424]

For whatever flaws remake has, I think it's actually leaps and bounds better than the 1st midgar section of the OG.

I agree. There are sections of Remake that absolutely EMBARRASS those same parts of the original in how good they are in comparison.

I refuse to compare it to the whole OG.

And we shouldn't.

I think people are finding that the vision of the remake in their heads that they’ve been asking for just doesn’t exist, nor was it ever something the devs were ever interested in making.

Well, they stated several times how they were interested in doing it. That's not the question. Nor is the question whether or not it was going to be the same one fans has "in their heads." I think we're splitting hairs on that point. Everyone (developers included) knows the basic idea was to reproduce more or less the same game with modern technology. Few, if any, are arguing about those parts. The issues I see being raised are ones of completely changing up what the game itself is on a narrative and thematic level.

I’ve seen some say that they would be fine if they knew about it before it came out, but I’m not convinced that knowing in advance would make that much of a difference to those who don’t like how this turned out.

Well, that's because it was marketed and sold as THE remake. I think those people feel conned. Although I would caution those people it may be too early to tell.

Considering how well the game was received though, they’re probably not worried about losing fans anyways.

Surely you can understand how cynical that is. If you went to a restaurant and ordered a steak, but they brought you soup that had steak bits in it, you would be understandably upset. It wouldn't matter how many times they explained to you that that particular chef wanted to make a steak soup but still call it "steak" on the menu. But hey, they're not worried if you never eat there again. A lot of people like that soup.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I’ve seen some say that they would be fine if they knew about it before it came out ...

I can't speak for those folks as to how they would feel, but I will say I feel the devs prepared us as well as they could without giving away the whole thing.

From the wording of the reveal back in 2015 to the theme expressed in the crossover with FFMobius; from letting us know about the Whispers almost a year ahead of time to interviews mentioning that their approach was that nothing would be assumed as too sacred to change ... I really feel that they put enough out there to prepare us to anticipate something like this.

 

[Roundhouse]

Let us embrace it, whatever it brings. For Genesis is coming back.

I'm never going to prefer the remake, simply because I see it as a different story, but I'm very curious to see what they are actually trying to do with this new take. The Zack thing is particularly odd.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The issues I see being raised are ones of completely changing up what the game itself is on a narrative and thematic level.

Doesn’t that bring us to the same place though? For you, it’s “completely changing up what the game itself is on a narrative and thematic level” but the devs and a lot of fans don’t seem to feel that way so who’s really to say?

Surely you can understand how cynical that is. If you went to a restaurant and ordered a steak, but they brought you soup that had steak bits in it, you would be understandably upset. It wouldn't matter how many times they explained to you that that particular chef wanted to make a steak soup but still call it "steak" on the menu. But hey, they're not worried if you never eat there again. A lot of people like that soup.

I mean I get it but it kinda goes back to my above point, whether or not it’s a “steak” or a “steak soup” to begin with seems to depend on who you ask at this point

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Doesn’t that bring us to the same place though? For you, it’s “completely changing up what the game itself is on a narrative and thematic level” but the devs and a lot of fans don’t seem to feel that way so who’s really to say?

Well, it's more complicated than that. I'm extremely excited about seeing where Remake goes, and far more so than I would have been with a more straightforward approach, but I will say they've introduced plenty of golden shiny wire of hope to hang themselves with.

If I'm being honest, I think they've written themselves into a corner and I'm still not convinced that they haven't bitten off more than they can chew attempting a remake of FFVII at the scale we've seen so far.

I'll be tickled as shit to be wrong on both counts, though. Here's hoping.