SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

[Eerie]

I also think that this Compilation!Sephiroth has access to the Compilation events through the Lifestream, but probably in limited capacity compared to the chapter 18!Sephiroth who has lived through these events and much more. In a way, it mirrors Aerith's knowledge that's expanded, but not a 100% knowledge of the future events - more than her though since he bathes in Lifestream

 

[Shademp]

I also think that this Compilation!Sephiroth has access to the Compilation events through the Lifestream

Sephiroth why won't you access and redistribute Before Crisis and DoC: Lost Episode to the masses

smfh

 

[Roundhouse]

Putting the pieces together:

- The Sephiroth at the end is one we have never seen before.
- He talks like pre-snapped Sephiroth in terms of the differences in Japanese.
- He wants Cloud's help with something, presumably help that must be voluntary rather than him controlling Cloud like a puppet.
- He can access a place called the 'apex of creation' or 'edge of creation'.

 

[Fiz]

I think I post this here to because why not?
So regarding EoC Sephiroth and where the story is going from here:
I don't get the feeling that the Sephiroth we see stalking Cloud through out the remake tries to break him, I think it's the opposite. The vibe I get and what others already said is that this Sephiroth knows about a future event that might be threatening his own existence/the planets and because of that he needs Cloud as his ally since at this point Cloud has proven himself to be on pair with him hence why he treats him so different now, he doesn't want him broken or destroyed he wants Cloud to reach his full potential for the task ahead.
So everything will be all right? I mean Seph is now a good guy, right??

...Well seems like Sephiroth is convince that Cloud can only achieve becoming stronger through suffering and despair
And you already can see that theory demonstrated in practice in the last boss battle.

We know that the last boss fight was suppose to mirror the OG boss battle against Sephiroth, we also got told that the idea behind your buddies appearing one after the other was suppose to contrast the original where it was the opposite where your party got smaller with time. We were also shown that the team was OP as fuck, it was like someone loaded their level 99 versions into the remake. So what happens at the edge of creation with Sephiroth? He and Cloud have almost shot for shot their last battle from the the og but this time Cloud loses. Same scene. Same powers. But Cloud still lost this time against Sephiroth. So why is that? I think Sephiroths answer to that is because the suffering Cloud endured is what makes him able to over come his limits and reach almost impossible highs. This is what makes him able to do things that shouldn't be possible for someone like him. The best example for that would be the Nibelheim incidence. A 16 year old grunt who wasn't even good enough to become anything more than a lousy Shinra Guard was able to defeat the legendary Sephiroth.

And how did he do it? Through his rage. Because he lost his hometown, his mother and Tifa, Cloud was able to do the impossible. And I think that's where Sephiroth is heading towards in the remake. He wants to isolate Cloud from the others and have him face some really fucked up shit that is on pair with what happened 5 years ago. That's why he tells him he killed his mother, he wants to feed into his anger so Cloud can use those negative emotions to grow even stronger.

TLDR: remake Sephiroth is basically Mr Burns from this episode

I think you're right in that Sephiroth is working to some goal he sees as just. But, yeah, Burns... evil good.

Well, her wording on its own doesn't really point to any of those, but it does illustrate what the Ultimania tells us (i.e. the Sephiroth from Chapter 18 is not a form of him we would have seen in the original game).

In my mind, that rules out a transformed part of Jenova, as well as Sephiroth's regular body. In light of the things he says and seems to know, I'd wager on some form of him from the future (or at least holding knowledge of the future).

^ this

Lol. I don’t even know what I want to know. Perhaps more on why you seem to suggest that this means “Sephiroth is different.” Does the language imply it’s future Seph, it’s Lifestream Seph, it’s not Seph at all but Jenova....

I can break it down if you want.

The whole dialogue outside the portal is juicy as hell, I love it. There is so much double meaning - it has significance for the characters, to the creators, to us as fans, and its telling us a lot about what's going on. There are two things being revealed in this conversation, technically a load of things, so I think it's useful to break it down. It doesn't differ much from the English, but I think the Japanese is slightly more explicit.



違う
Means "different" but it can also be "wrong". I believe this is indeed Aerith telling Barret that this Sephiroth is "different". In the English, this line is replaced with "don't". As Twilight Mexican said, it doesn't tell us much more than that he is "different". Anything more than that, such as whether the different Sephiroths are connected in the sense that they have some kind of hive mind, whether they understand what the other is up to or talk to each other, or what this means for Northern Crater Sephiroth, is up in the air.



あなたはまちがっている
She's telling him that he is wrong, it literally translates to "As for you, you're wrong". So the English is translation is bang on.

I want to clear a thing up that gets discussed.

In this particular line, まちがっている is the te form + iru of 間違う which literally means "to be mistaken/incorrect". 間違う doesn't mean to be wrong in terms of existence, it means to be wrong or incorrect in accuracy, perception or belief. To be making a mistake, to be incorrect in belief, like that.

https://jisho.org/word/間違う
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/ja/dictionary/japanese-english/間違う


Also, this is almost certainly telling us that Aerith knows things about Sephiroths plans, she isn't in the dark. Also, that there is some kind of battle of ideas going on between the two. This isn't going to be OG FFVII.


感傷で曇った目には何も見えまい

Eyes clouded by sentimentality see nothing. I think the English is bang on with this line too, but the Japanese is more explicit. I think he is telling Aerith that her viewpoint is clouding her vision. Put another way, all the shit under the bridge is making her distrust him and that she's not seeing clearly because of that.


あなたはまちがている
Again, "You are wrong", but now she's mad. The "everything about you is wrong" in the English dub that some people say means "his existence is wrong", I think is more expressing that she's irritated by what he said, that she's smacking him down. His reaction to look down (which is unusual body language from him) before directing his dialogue to Cloud, he didn't like it.


I think this Sephiroth is more complex, is up to something he considers good but Aerith disagrees with. I don't think we will get good guy Sephiroth out of it though, more an "evil good" Sephiroth. Afterall, a psychopaths utopia is going to be slanted.

Or my "they all team up and go back in time to the Cetra to kill Jenova at source and we get to play in Cetra land for funsies" fan-fiction theory could be right. In which case, I think I want a prize if it's that.

 

[Fiz]

Putting the pieces together:

- The Sephiroth at the end is one we have never seen before.
- He talks like pre-snapped Sephiroth in terms of the differences in Japanese.
- He wants Cloud's help with something, presumably help that must be voluntary rather than him controlling Cloud like a puppet.
- He can access a place called the 'apex of creation' or 'edge of creation'.

They totally should have licensed that track for the credits, just for trollish shits and giggles.

 

[Roundhouse]

It absolutely feels like there is some sort of battle between Sephiroth and Aerith going on, it feels like they are the demi-gods waging a war with Cloud as the Queen piece.

 

[Shademp]

they are the demi-gods waging a war with Cloud as the Queen piece.

Part 2 begins with post-DoC Aerith and Sephiroth playing chess, exchanging Kingdom Hearts-style lines of insufferable vagueness

 

[Fiz]

It absolutely feels like there is some sort of battle between Sephiroth and Aerith going on, it feels like they are the demi-gods waging a war with Cloud as the Queen piece.

Yeah, I agree.

Part 2 begins with post-DoC Aerith and Sephiroth playing chess, exchanging Kingdom Hearts-style lines of insufferable vagueness

LOL.


I do wonder whether that Minerva theory Sleepezi and FFP have floated might have merit, but with less convolution. It kinda makes sense in a number of ways.

First, what Sephiroth would want assistance from Cloud (and implicitly, the others too) for? Minerva seems like the only thing in the FFVII universe that could plausibly be more powerful than Sephiroth alone.

Minerva being what creates the weapons and the whispers makes sense conceptually. This also raises whether Aerith will, instead of dying and saving the planet at the end, become Minervas replacement should Minerva turn out to be the final battle.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Minerva is just a glorified summon that's the face of the Lifestream, and if she represents the Planet, then she cucks to Sephiroth 24/7. Minerva doesn't really inspire confidence or strength.

 

[Fiz]

Minerva is just a glorified summon that's the face of the Lifestream, and if she represents the Planet, then she cucks to Sephiroth 24/7. Minerva doesn't really inspire confidence or strength.

I don't think you can really say that considering she didn't exist in OG, obviously whenever compilation stuff is introduced it will be reworked to function correctly where required.

She's supposed to represent the closest thing to "god" in FFVII's universe, Sephiroth and Aerith are basically "lesser gods" come the end of OG/ACC - Jenova therefore I suppose is the opposite of Minerva. If I try to unpack the characters hierarchically that's where I arrive.

Therefore, if there is some battle of ideals between Aerith and Sephiroth, with the latter wanting to have assistance to destroy something, it would be Minerva or Jenova, no? Or, we are at Sephiroth just wants to stop Cloud from stopping him from destroying the planet and becoming a god.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

One interesting variant I've seen (suggested by Cae Lumis) is that Chapte 18 Sephiroth is not a Sephrioth from the *future* that came back from the past exactly... but a Sephrioth from the Nibelheim incident that *saw* the future. So you get Nibelheim Sephrioth's way of referring to himself and with knowledge of what happened in the future, but he himself hasn't actually done what future Sephrioth did just yet. He *is* taking that information into account however, and doing something different this time.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think you can really say that considering she didn't exist in OG, obviously whenever compilation stuff is introduced it will be reworked to function correctly where required.

She's supposed to represent the closest thing to "god" in FFVII's universe, Sephiroth and Aerith are basically "lesser gods" come the end of OG/ACC - Jenova therefore I suppose is the opposite of Minerva. If I try to unpack the characters hierarchically that's where I arrive.

Therefore, if there is some battle of ideals between Aerith and Sephiroth, with the latter wanting to have assistance to destroy something, it would be Minerva or Jenova, no? Or, we are at Sephiroth just wants to stop Cloud from stopping him from destroying the planet and becoming a god.

If she's the closest thing to "god," then she's a weak deity. Jenova isn't the opposite of her because Jenova could do what it wished and is far more powerful and dangerous, and really Sephiroth is more representative of Jenova now, since Jenova is ultimately subordinate to him. Minerva's existence is defined as being similar to a summon beast that is projected by the planet, which doesn't really indicate much godliness or anything supreme, aside maybe being the strongest summon entity created. In the end, she's an anthropomorphization of the Lifestream, and is defined and ruled by that existence. If the Lifestream is but a manifestation of the planet's spirit energy composed of dead souls, then Minerva's simply the face of that collective. Sephiroth eats spirit energy, so if anything that makes him far more supreme and powerful.

And Aerith isn't really a "demi-god" unless all Cetra are demi-gods at this point. Her being able to speak to the planet and understand it means she's close to the planet. Not in control of it, or able to just make it bend to her will. She's a mortal just like those who came before her.

 

[Fiz]

If she's the closest thing to "god," then she's a weak deity. Jenova isn't the opposite of her because Jenova could do what it wished and is far more powerful and dangerous, and really Sephiroth is more representative of Jenova now, since Jenova is ultimately subordinate to him. Minerva's existence is defined as being similar to a summon beast that is projected by the planet, which doesn't really indicate much godliness or anything supreme, aside maybe being the strongest summon entity created. In the end, she's an anthropomorphization of the Lifestream, and is defined and ruled by that existence. If the Lifestream is but a manifestation of the planet's spirit energy composed of dead souls, then Minerva's simply the face of that collective. Sephiroth eats spirit energy, so if anything that makes him far more supreme and powerful.

I'm not sure we can categorically say that though, because Minerva was introduced into the story after OG and AC, and hasn't really existed in FFVII's lore in the context of "during Sephiroth being a threat". If Minerva is introduced into Remake, surely it follows that Minerva is the opposite to Jenova rather than Sephiroth and should be higher up in the food chain than him?

And Aerith isn't really a "demi-god" unless all Cetra are demi-gods at this point. Her being able to speak to the planet and understand it means she's close to the planet. Not in control of it, or able to just make it bend to her will. She's a mortal just like those who came before her.

Aerith is Aerith, and I've done this before. Both Aerith and Sephiroth are wholly compatible with mainstream definitions of "gods" and I think most outsiders, who knew nothing of FFVII's universe, if introduced to post OG Aerith and Sephiroth would identify them as some form of god. So I think "demi-gods" are an appropriate definition.

BIB: The concepts of gods are diverse, while they don't fit a Judeo-Christian definition, they certainly fit many others.

 

[LNK]

Minerva being what creates the weapons and the whispers makes sense conceptually. This also raises whether Aerith will, instead of dying and saving the planet at the end, become Minervas replacement should Minerva turn out to be the final battle.

Wasn't she already defeated in Crisis Core though?

 

[Eerie]

I do see Sephiroth and Aerith as semi-divine, both are partly human and can influence the Lifestream, battle beyond death, etc. They take opposite ways and the devs certainly did underline that in Remake.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

違う
Means "different" but it can also be "wrong". I believe this is indeed Aerith telling Barret that this Sephiroth is "different".

Yeah, it can essentially mean "wrong" in contexts where the truth is something different from what someone assumed was the case. That would apply here, where Barret assumed they were being confronted by the same jerk who skewered him a few minutes earlier only for Aerith to be like "noop, same look, different jerk."

And Aerith isn't really a "demi-god" unless all Cetra are demi-gods at this point. Her being able to speak to the planet and understand it means she's close to the planet. Not in control of it, or able to just make it bend to her will.

We know she has taken control of it on at least two occasions, though (at the end of the original game and the end of AC). Between that, the derivation of her name, and her being called "Mother" a couple of times, it's not hard to see that she's meant to have taken on a "Mother Earth" role.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Minerva was introduced in Crisis Core as the depiction of the "goddess" spoken about in LOVELESS and a superboss who existed as a force so potent, that it caused disruptions to technology and people. That's not some unknown or ambiguous existence, that's what she is. As defined as-

She is interpreted to be the Goddess mentioned in LOVELESS, but in terms of substance she is similar to a summon, though it seems that the purpose behind her actions is to follow the intentions of the Lifestream.

She's a personification or anthropomorphization of the Lifestream. That's her context, and if she's the Lifestream, how is that "opposite" of Jenova? The prey of a predator isn't really their opposite. And Jenova doesn't represent some personification or anti-force of a collective unconscious, hell Jenova isn't even the top of its existence anymore either. That's Sephiroth, who is the ultimate evolution of its species. Sephiroth is the threat to the planet that would be the existence that would oppose Minerva, and Minerva is close to helpless against him. Because he has shown time and time again to be able to manipulate and control it as he wishes.

We know she has taken control of it on at least two occasions, though (at the end of the original game and the end of AC). Between that, the derivation of her name, and her being called "Mother" a couple of times, it's not hard to see that she's meant to have taken on a "Mother Earth" role.

And even those moments are fleeting, since Aerith eventually fades back into the Lifestream. To be a proper deity, one would have to have some semblance of immortality, which she doesn't have. Aerith performing miracles to help others is magical, and I guess something close to divine... However she's not permanent, her soul gets cycled just like all others. Subject to the same laws and cyclical nature of the Lifestream.

Sephiroth is the only one that comes close to actually subverting that law and being eternal.

 

[Roundhouse]

RemakeAerith reminds me a bit of what in Tolkien's world are called 'Maiar', specifically Gandalf, a sort of powerful guardian of the planet. It's possible that, like Gandalf, she was also

Spoiler

sent back from death in the remake to aid the main characters in defeating the evil threat

 

[Fiz]

Minerva was introduced in Crisis Core as the depiction of the "goddess" spoken about in LOVELESS and a superboss who existed as a force so potent, that it caused disruptions to technology and people. That's not some unknown or ambiguous existence, that's what she is. As defined as-



She's a personification or anthropomorphization of the Lifestream. That's her context, and if she's the Lifestream, how is that "opposite" of Jenova? The prey of a predator isn't really their opposite. And Jenova doesn't represent some personification or anti-force of a collective unconscious, hell Jenova isn't even the top of its existence anymore either. That's Sephiroth, who is the ultimate evolution of its species. Sephiroth is the threat to the planet that would be the existence that would oppose Minerva, and Minerva is close to helpless against him. Because he has shown time and time again to be able to manipulate and control it as he wishes.

If we consider that the Lifestream is essentially a Shinto construct and is "god" then that answers that point.

And even those moments are fleeting, since Aerith eventually fades back into the Lifestream. To be a proper deity, one would have to have some semblance of immortality, which she doesn't have. Aerith performing miracles to help others is magical, and I guess something close to divine... However she's not permanent, her soul gets cycled just like all others. Subject to the same laws and cyclical nature of the Lifestream.

Sephiroth is the only one that comes close to actually subverting that law and being eternal.

Many gods can die or fade away... even the Greek Gods, and lets not get started on Shinto spirits. Immortality isn't that simple and isn't even a requirement for a being to be a god. The only way that ever becomes the case is if you're saying Judo-Christian ideas of gods are the only proper definitions of gods.

 

[Fiz]

Wasn't she already defeated in Crisis Core though?

I'm not sure, didn't she just disappear off again?

Yeah, it can essentially mean "wrong" in contexts where the truth is something different from what someone assumed was the case. That would apply here, where Barret assumed they were being confronted by the same jerk who skewered him a few minutes earlier only for Aerith to be like "noop, same look, different jerk."

True, and yeah, I agree, that's what she meant either way.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And even those moments are fleeting, since Aerith eventually fades back into the Lifestream. To be a proper deity, one would have to have some semblance of immortality, which she doesn't have. Aerith performing miracles to help others is magical, and I guess something close to divine... However she's not permanent, her soul gets cycled just like all others. Subject to the same laws and cyclical nature of the Lifestream.

Sephiroth is the only one that comes close to actually subverting that law and being eternal.

It's a lot harder to not see the symbolism at work here than it is to just see it and accept it for what it is.

Jenova is the "new god," its name an obvious distorted portmanteau of "Jehovah" and "nova." Angelic imagery is associated with it via that construct in the Mt. Nibel reactor and the wings of Sephiroth and his ilk.

If Jenova is metaphorically the "new" god, then the one it's trying to supplant is the Lifestream, which also sees angelic imagery associated with its agents and/or avatars, including Aerith herself in her Great Gospel limit break.

Sephiroth, as Jenova's inheritor, declared that he would become a god. Aerith is his thematic adversary and presented as his spiritual opposite number at every turn. She is also named "Earth" and guides the Lifestream to counter and correct Sephiroth's actions, which are a perversion of the path to oneness with God (the meaning of his name).

As imagery and theme building go, she is the divine holy force posed against Sephiroth's defilement of the same.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's a lot harder to not see the symbolism at work here than it is to just see it and accept it for what it is.

Jenova is the "new god," its name an obvious distorted portmanteau of "Jehovah" and "nova." Angelic imagery is associated with it via that construct in the Mt. Nibel reactor and the wings of Sephiroth and his ilk.

If Jenova is metaphorically the "new" god, then the one it's trying to supplant is the Lifestream, which also sees angelic imagery associated with its agents and/or avatars, including Aerith herself in her Great Gospel limit break.

Sephiroth, as Jenova's inheritor, declared that he would become a god. Aerith is his thematic adversary and presented as his spiritual opposite number at every turn. She is also named "Earth" and guides the Lifestream to counter and correct Sephiroth's actions, which are a perversion of the path to oneness with God (the meaning of his name).

As imagery and theme building go, she is the divine holy force posed against Sephiroth's defilement of the same.

I get that thematically that's what is reflected in their roles within the story, I'm just saying that literally in the text, Aerith doesn't have nearly as much divine power or agency that would be expected of a 'god.' She's miraculous and able to perform magic to help others, but she ultimately is still a mortal that is vulnerable. Aerith carries all that symbolism and stands opposite of Sephiroth, but she's ultimately not his equal.

Sephiroth thematically and literally reflects divinity given his power and actions. He stands above them all given his role as the superhuman villain.

 

[LNK]

I'm not sure, didn't she just disappear off again?

I never played Crisis Core, but from the videos I've seen, it looks like she "disappears" into the lifestream. In a similar way other defeated enemies do

 

[Roundhouse]

You know, given the recent thing about Weiss and the Genesis quote (about the final curtain or whatever), I'm starting to wonder if Obsidian and Cae may be right about Loveless being important to the remake...and didn't Genesis connect Loveless to Minerva herself?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

You know, given the recent thing about Weiss and the Genesis quote (about the final curtain or whatever), I'm starting to wonder if Obsidian and Cae may be right about Loveless being important to the remake...and didn't Genesis connect Loveless to Minerva herself?

Not exactly.

Genesis
Do you know the verse in Act IV that leads in to the final act?

Zack
Of course not!

Genesis
Legend shall speak
Of sacrifice at world’s end
The wind sails over the water’s surface
Quietly, but surely

Zack
Enough about sacrifices and endings!
I don’t want to hear it!

Genesis
You don’t understand the beauty of these words.
How tragic...
I’m not surprised.
Even I didn’t understand all of it.
The greatest mystery behind the gift of the goddess...
"The water’s surface."
And the answer I have arrived at, is the lifestream.

Genesis connects the "water" in Act IV with the Lifestream. The devs connect the water seen in Zack's "vision" in CC to Aerith... and the Lifestream... so you have both Word of God and a character in-game giving the same interpretation of symbolism. And then Remake ends with everyone in the Lifestream standing in water under a clouded sky. At some point... it's more than a bit obvious what the symbolism the devs are going for. To the point they spell it out for us directly.

In-universe, it's also no small matter that whatever conclusions Genesis got from Loveless *did* end up working out or him like he wanted them to. Weather that was an accident or not... YMMV. It is worth pointing out the Crisis Core Keywords do say the Planet itself made a judgement call on what Genesis' goal was and pretty much told him to finish whatever the heck he was doing. So the Planet/Lifestream is presented as being able to make decisions about specific individuals and how it deals with them on an individual basis. And that... sounds a lot like what several different belif systems would consider a "god" to me.

While Loveless doesn't mention Minirva, a "goddess" is mentioned several times in Loveless... as is her gift. What that gift is is thought by (in-universe) scholars to be longevity, life, immortality, etc. Essentially, it's something along the lines of the Fountain of Youth. This is probably the most obvious passage that links the two concepts up.

My friend, your desire
Is the bringer of life, the gift of the goddess

Thing is, we know the Planet... more or less "gives" Genesis "life". In fact... people who come in contact with the Lifestream are often healed in some way. The Lifestream facilitates Tifa healing Cloud's mind. The Lifestream heals Kyrie and Even when they fall into it. The Lifestream heals Cloud in ACC after Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo all but kill him. The Lifestream comes up out of Aerith's Church to heal people's geostigma.

So... You could probably make a pretty good argument for the Planet (or the thing representing it) as being the goddess of Loveless. That is giving life to... honestly just about everything. All "life" comes from the Lifestream ultimately. So it being personified as some type of goddess giving the gift of life isn't too big of a stretch. We even know the Lifestream holds the memoires of everything that has lived (specifically the Cetra though), so it being identified with a goddess known for her wisdom isn't that far-fetched either (Minerva has the Wisdom of the Ancients anyone?).

In contrast to the Lifestream, Jenova is an anomaly. She is a source of... parasitic life and warped memories. Instead of *making* new life, she corrupts life outside of herself. She also manipulates people's minds by making them see things that *aren't there*. Thematically, Jenova is an opposite of the Lifestream in... a ton of ways. She can't make life, she makes false memories. And she might as well be the thing that Sephiroth *worships* and tries to emulate. She's the source of Sephiroth's identity as her loyal son... as everything else on the Planet is *of* the Planet.

Both the Lifestream and Jenova are the two power sources of everything in FFVII. Sephrioth might *call* himself a god, but he derives his claim to godhood by finding his identity as "Jenova's Son". Aerith doesn't really *want* "godhood", but she ends up functioning a lot like one by virtue of being the "Last Cetra". Both Sephrioth and Aerith are kinda "priests" when it comes to enacting the wills of their goddesses in the physical world. They're the representatives of their sides to other people.