Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Obsidian Fire]

People get very attached to the ideas they have about how something should be, so it makes sense to me that really long-time players wouldn't care for many of the things the remake does. I think the generation that had the compilation/KH right alongside the original might be a bit more likely to just roll with it than people who played it in 1997 are, and of course new players have no preconceived biases.

What definetly changed how I saw the Remake was when Nomura admitted he had come up with the idea for Remake all the way back when he was working on Crisis Core... which was in turn in development when he was working on Dirge of Cerberus... which was in development at the same time as Advent Children and Before Crisis were. There's a very close relationship with all the Compilation games as they all kinda came out of the same linked dev cycles. "Remake" just didn't end up getting made when Nomura had the idea. It got... essentially delayed by ten years.

And that gave me the idea that as far as Nomura was concerned... Remake was probably less a "remake of the OG" and more "an extension/squeal of Crisis Core". Which... re-framed what Remake was trying to do with its story. I don't think it is trying to be the OG at all. I think it is trying to tie up the loose ends of the crisis that was introduced in Crisis Core while also giving Crisis Core the ending everyone was hoping Crisis Core could get against all odds.

That is... Remake belongs with the Compilation games/movies/novellas in terms of how the creators think about their own work. And I know... a number of people here... have never quite liked what Nomura, Kitase and Nomjima did with the FFVII story, world and characters in the Compilation.

 

[Odysseus]

^Yeah I agree with that. The original game inspired a bunch of cash grabs spin-off titles, which are then weaved back into the original story by the remake. Part of me was hoping the remake would be a sequel in-universe so the full FF7 experience would be book-ended by a version of the original story (with tweaks.) That way it can do new things without it overwriting the original, too. I sympathise with people who wanted something more straight-forward, though.

In one video someone was pissed because the score was doing the same thing. I couldn’t even disagree with them, but my level of priority for that is so low compared to... so many other issues.

By score do you mean the music? Is it that one-winged angel appears in part one? I had mixed feelings about that at first, but OWA Rebirth is my favorite version now so I can't be too mad. I do wonder what they'll do for Safer Sephiroth now though.

 

[Cae Lumis]

If I had to say what my red line for Remake would be... the thing that would cause me to throw my hands in the air in abject disgust -give up- and yeet the PS5 controller into the TV & PS5 like a frisbee while cackling in total detached and final spent end to my sanity... it would be quite possibly the opposite to what many in here have posted. This game laid down the gauntlet with how Pt.1 ended: Change Destiny... ostensibly turning the rest of the story into what can be described as a tug-of-war between Sephiroth (Who would define changing destiny as finally ascending to Godhood, permanently rendering Cloud a catatonic self-hating mess if not a permanent puppet/ copy of himself, and whatever fun stuff he can cook up) and Aerith (who would define changing Destiny presumably as reducing the amount of people who died as much as she possibly can and just... find some way of helping everyone best Sephiroth both in a conclusive way AND in a manner that ends with a far better outcome for Post-Meteorfall than the original did). The ultimate betrayal to that would be saying, "it does not matter how much you try to change destiny... destiny marches all the same and towards the very same conclusion regardless of your input."

If a game promises with all its marketing now and coding within the story that its conclusion will be different... do not give any half measures. Let Aerith live and unleash the full potential of her abilities as a Cetra. Let Zack join Team Avalanche in kicking Sephiroth's ass from The Planet, to the stars, and back again without dying. Let's have a final bow where everyone from across the Compilation gets their moment to shine in some way.

As long as these characters are still the ones we love and cherish, so what if new bonds are forming and they develop differently because some deaths have been averted? As long as it is good... and as long as the ending can bring a cathartic cheer, I say bring it on. The worst the game can do then is tell me none of that matters.

 

[Ite]

By score do you mean the music? Is it that one-winged angel appears in part one? I had mixed feelings about that at first, but OWA Rebirth is my favorite version now so I can't be too mad. I do wonder what they'll do for Safer Sephiroth now though.

It was actually the Main Theme, as Uematsu’s original compositions for Midgar portended the melody with “On That Day...” and “Rotting Pizza” but ‘saved’ the Main Theme for the overworld. I thought the argument was flawed, as I believe Uematsu just composed the tracks independently and their placement in the game was mostly (if not all) the director’s doing. It’s rare that someone will be a more pedantic purist than I — and while keeping the Main Theme out of Part 1 would have been my choice were I director (I’m not certain it was a choice in the OG, but if it were, it would be a strong choice) I had no expectations that Nomura would restrain himself in that way, or skimp on the OWA for that matter.

I’ve been thinking about my red line. I’m probably going to say yes to anything that promises to remake a sequence from the OG. Once they start doing post-meteor stuff (and they will) I’m out.

 

[KindOfBlue]

In one video someone was pissed because the score was doing the same thing. I couldn’t even disagree with them, but my level of priority for that is so low compared to... so many other issues.



It is continuing the story, though. In the fiction of the story, characters are travelling through time and creating branching universes, and when things seem to line up with how they did in the OG, it’s only because the time travel hasn’t prevented those things from playing out. The marketing calls it Remake to set up an expectation and the game sets out to summarily subvert it. It’s a trick. Our response to that trick can be whatever we like it to be, so let’s not gaslight each other about being tricked in the first place.

Would you call Terminator: Genesys a remake? No. This is the same thing. Things line up and many scenes are recreated and it’s all very nostalgic, but it’s a sequel.

Isn’t Terminator Genisys a soft reboot? Either way, I don’t see how being meta equates to being a sequel if all you’ve done is retold the original story but with some expansions. I don’t think what you described precludes this from being a remake when the devs don’t seem to be treating the OG like something the audience needs to experience before playing Remake, which I feel like wouldn’t be the case if it actually were a sequel. I’ve even seen some streamers avoid the OG specifically to not spoil Remake.

No offense but I think people are just too hung up over the apparent deceptive nature of the marketing when at the moment, you could really just pretend all the Whisper stuff isn’t there and still get that coveted “true remake” or whatever. For now, at least. Once they start making changes that aren’t so easy to ignore like changing Aerith’s fate, then I’ll be more convinced.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I mean... I think they do think people need to play the OG. Or rather, they think people do need to play the rest of the Compilation. They're planning on making the entire Compilation easier to get into than even before with Ever Crisis.

No more tracking down Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus or Before Crisis videos on YouTube. You can actually play through those stories all from one hub location. Even Advent Children and the First SOLDIER are getting included in some form... and Nojima is writing new stories for Ever Crisis...

For that matter, I'll be very interested to see how they translate a lot of stuff in the OG in Ever Crisis. The localization of the OG is... really bad in some places. So seeing them do a much better job at getting across what they wanted to really get across in the OG... might end up revealing things in a new light.

I really wouldn't be surprised if they expect most players to be up-to-date with the Compilation by the time Part 2 comes out and the story (most likely) starts to deviate even more from the OG's version of events.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, all indication really seems to be that they want the player to know the original story.

 

[cold_spirit]

I'm curious as to what people's 'point of no return' is for the remake. What is the point where someone just gives up on it or decides that they aren't a fan of it?

I have a sappy answer to this. There's no "point of no return" for me. As long as the creators are telling the story they want to tell, I'm happy.

However, I'm also going to uhhh "get political" with this...

I do worry about unthoughtful or insensitive representation. This is true of any game I look forward to. You ever find yourself enjoying something until a sexist or homophobic scene just causally plays out? The best example I can think of is the Persona series, which have a few transphobic and "gay panic" jokes thrown into them. Poor representation has ruined a fair share of entertainment for me. I just don't tolerate it.

Now, that being said, Square Enix is pretty good in this department. In particular, what they did with the Honeybee Inn in Remake was thoughtful. But the original game has a few things that haven't aged well. I think the next big issue is Cid's abusive language with Shera that he never gets held accountable for, but I'm hopeful SE will address this. That being said, I've also been burned enough times to know that I should never totally drop my cynicism, so we'll see.

Bringing this back to Remake's new plot developments, I'm not at all concerned with where it goes. Aerith can live, Zack can live, Rufus can be Aerith's half-brother, I'm cool as long as the creators continue to put as much heart into it as they did with part 1. However, I'll immediately back away if they slip up on representation. Again, I know there's not much precedent for this, but this is where my mind is at.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm tentatively hopeful that Cid's character arc of becoming more of a better guy towards Shera will be handled more gracefully than its poorly-aged treatment in the original.

I do fear that they might lean a bit too heavily on crappy anime tropes that are still super prevalent. Whatever they do, I'm pretty confident it will at the very least be more current-year appropriate than what we have in the OG.

 

[Fiz]

If I had to say what my red line for Remake would be... the thing that would cause me to throw my hands in the air in abject disgust -give up- and yeet the PS5 controller into the TV & PS5 like a frisbee while cackling in total detached and final spent end to my sanity... it would be quite possibly the opposite to what many in here have posted. This game laid down the gauntlet with how Pt.1 ended: Change Destiny... ostensibly turning the rest of the story into what can be described as a tug-of-war between Sephiroth (Who would define changing destiny as finally ascending to Godhood, permanently rendering Cloud a catatonic self-hating mess if not a permanent puppet/ copy of himself, and whatever fun stuff he can cook up) and Aerith (who would define changing Destiny presumably as reducing the amount of people who died as much as she possibly can and just... find some way of helping everyone best Sephiroth both in a conclusive way AND in a manner that ends with a far better outcome for Post-Meteorfall than the original did). The ultimate betrayal to that would be saying, "it does not matter how much you try to change destiny... destiny marches all the same and towards the very same conclusion regardless of your input."

If a game promises with all its marketing now and coding within the story that its conclusion will be different... do not give any half measures. Let Aerith live and unleash the full potential of her abilities as a Cetra. Let Zack join Team Avalanche in kicking Sephiroth's ass from The Planet, to the stars, and back again without dying. Let's have a final bow where everyone from across the Compilation gets their moment to shine in some way.

As long as these characters are still the ones we love and cherish, so what if new bonds are forming and they develop differently because some deaths have been averted? As long as it is good... and as long as the ending can bring a cathartic cheer, I say bring it on. The worst the game can do then is tell me none of that matters.

I agree with you completely on this and you aren’t alone. I don’t know whether it would make me bail out, but I would certainly view the whole Remake project negatively for it.


If Zack and Biggs die in Final Destination fashion, and Sephiroth comes crashing down into Aerith, I think my reaction would be more of a groan than shock - and the idea that “you can’t change destiny” would be so transparent as to lose its impact. It would be cheap and gimmicky.

They made a huge song and dance about changing fate, threw scenes of Aeriths death at us, alluded to a better ending, reversed at least two character fates, and teased us with “an unknown journey”.

I think for them to go back on that would expose them and my reception would be to question whether it was nothing more than a marketing gimmick, that they were hot out of good ideas or that they didn’t have the guts to commit; and Remake would then become a case of ruined because they *should* have just left it alone.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I mean... I think they do think people need to play the OG. Or rather, they think people do need to play the rest of the Compilation. They're planning on making the entire Compilation easier to get into than even before with Ever Crisis.

No more tracking down Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus or Before Crisis videos on YouTube. You can actually play through those stories all from one hub location. Even Advent Children and the First SOLDIER are getting included in some form... and Nojima is writing new stories for Ever Crisis...

For that matter, I'll be very interested to see how they translate a lot of stuff in the OG in Ever Crisis. The localization of the OG is... really bad in some places. So seeing them do a much better job at getting across what they wanted to really get across in the OG... might end up revealing things in a new light.

I really wouldn't be surprised if they expect most players to be up-to-date with the Compilation by the time Part 2 comes out and the story (most likely) starts to deviate even more from the OG's version of events.

Yeah, all indication really seems to be that they want the player to know the original story.

Eh, I’m not too convinced of that...I feel like if that were the case, wouldn’t it make more sense to release Ever Crisis before Remake?

 

[OWA-2]

I mean... I think they do think people need to play the OG. Or rather, they think people do need to play the rest of the Compilation. They're planning on making the entire Compilation easier to get into than even before with Ever Crisis.

No more tracking down Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus or Before Crisis videos on YouTube. You can actually play through those stories all from one hub location. Even Advent Children and the First SOLDIER are getting included in some form... and Nojima is writing new stories for Ever Crisis...

For that matter, I'll be very interested to see how they translate a lot of stuff in the OG in Ever Crisis. The localization of the OG is... really bad in some places. So seeing them do a much better job at getting across what they wanted to really get across in the OG... might end up revealing things in a new light.

I really wouldn't be surprised if they expect most players to be up-to-date with the Compilation by the time Part 2 comes out and the story (most likely) starts to deviate even more from the OG's version of events.

I'm very curious on how they are going to release the Ever Crisis chapters... Because the combat visuals, and visuals in general, during battle, look incredibly similar to Remake. So if for example, they release a post-Midgar chapter before Part 2 of Remake is released, wouldn't that be spoiling Part 2?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Eh, I’m not too convinced of that...I feel like if that were the case, wouldn’t it make more sense to release Ever Crisis before Remake?

Not if Ever Crisis is providing context for "the unknown journey" line at the end of Remake.

 

[Eerie]

They definitely want the *new* players to be aware of the OG and the Compilation, hence why they're promoting both heavily *after* Remake was released, why they begged players to go back and play the OG.

However, I do think that it's going to follow a similar path. They've already said to expect that we're going to follow the OG. BUT. It's going to go there in a very different way. If you look at the OG!Midgar part and the Remake, you can safely say that:
- it's the same
- it's veryyyyy different
And I think we're going to have similar trains of thoughts for the rest of the Remake.

Now, why do they want players to be aware of the OG and the Compilation? Because they want players to enjoy it *more*. If you go under sector 7 without knowing the Compilation, you feel it's a tad weird, but uh, okay, why not. If you go there knowing the OG and the Compilation you go "OMG!" while discovering this area, even if you're being thrown away right after. This is WHY they want fans to be aware of the Compilation and the OG. To me, Remake is like a super-OG that encompasses both the OG and its Compilation in an even grander way. It's a gift to the fans. Any corner, you can find tidbit that will make you go "oh that's what it is!". Because the Compilation has gone in various, different ways that sometimes feel very far apart from what the OG was, they're tying everything together. And the bonus is that they now don't have to worry about making big surprises and shocks, they can tell their story in a more cohesive way without having to worry about the two big elements that have already been hinted at: Aerith's death and the Lifestream scene.

 

[Ite]

Isn’t Terminator Genisys a soft reboot? Either way, I don’t see how being meta equates to being a sequel if all you’ve done is retold the original story but with some expansions. I don’t think what you described precludes this from being a remake when the devs don’t seem to be treating the OG like something the audience needs to experience before playing Remake, which I feel like wouldn’t be the case if it actually were a sequel. I’ve even seen some streamers avoid the OG specifically to not spoil Remake.

No offense but I think people are just too hung up over the apparent deceptive nature of the marketing when at the moment, you could really just pretend all the Whisper stuff isn’t there and still get that coveted “true remake” or whatever. For now, at least. Once they start making changes that aren’t so easy to ignore like changing Aerith’s fate, then I’ll be more convinced.

I can’t disagree with this post enough. It’s bewildering. If it was possible to ignore the whispers, don’t you think I would have done so?

And your claim that prior knowledge of the OG isn’t expected is demonstrably false. You scoff at my estimation of the marketing as “apparently deceptive” but how many defenders of the changes have been “We need to be surprised, it would be boring if we just retread the same old story.” Um, that’s a big clue there. All of the twists and turns of Remake are designed to achieve maximum impact the more familiar you are with the compilation. The only example I need to cite is Zack. I can’t take your argument seriously at all when I look at how Zack is used.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Not if Ever Crisis is providing context for "the unknown journey" line at the end of Remake.

But is it? Unless I’m mistaken, Ever Crisis only seems to be covering the OG and the rest of the Compilation not including Remake, aside from using assets from Remake it didn’t seem like they’re planning to adapt that version of the story

They definitely want the *new* players to be aware of the OG and the Compilation, hence why they're promoting both heavily *after* Remake was released, why they begged players to go back and play the OG.

However, I do think that it's going to follow a similar path. They've already said to expect that we're going to follow the OG. BUT. It's going to go there in a very different way. If you look at the OG!Midgar part and the Remake, you can safely say that:
- it's the same
- it's veryyyyy different
And I think we're going to have similar trains of thoughts for the rest of the Remake.

Now, why do they want players to be aware of the OG and the Compilation? Because they want players to enjoy it *more*. If you go under sector 7 without knowing the Compilation, you feel it's a tad weird, but uh, okay, why not. If you go there knowing the OG and the Compilation you go "OMG!" while discovering this area, even if you're being thrown away right after. This is WHY they want fans to be aware of the Compilation and the OG. To me, Remake is like a super-OG that encompasses both the OG and its Compilation in an even grander way. It's a gift to the fans. Any corner, you can find tidbit that will make you go "oh that's what it is!". Because the Compilation has gone in various, different ways that sometimes feel very far apart from what the OG was, they're tying everything together. And the bonus is that they now don't have to worry about making big surprises and shocks, they can tell their story in a more cohesive way without having to worry about the two big elements that have already been hinted at: Aerith's death and the Lifestream scene.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve written, but with statements like these...

Kitase: I felt that if we want to show people where these characters came from then, truthfully, if the original game was the only way to experience it, new players - especially anyone that wasn’t playing games in the original’s era - probably wouldn’t be so impressed with the original game compared to the latest titles they could be playing.

So that felt like an exciting challenge and opportunity - let’s take everything great from the original, and create something new and surprising for both the original fans, and those that never played FINAL FANTASY VII before.

- Square Enix, March 2020

Kitase: The fans have been waiting for 23 years for this game, and I’m happy we’ve been finally able to deliver it to them. It’s a full-fledged game that can be enjoyed by itself, but its story is far from over.

- Famitsu, April 2020

Hamaguchi: Our core concept for Remake was to pay homage to the elements that people loved from the original, while rebuilding it as a very modern piece of entertainment. We really wanted to create an experience that felt nostalgic, but at the same time a game that is also new and fresh.

- VG247, May 2020

Kitase: I’m sure there are people who wish to experience the exact same story and relive memories. However, if we were to do that, then all we would be doing is just adding to the original experience, which would cause the Remake to lose its significance. I think that we were able to successfully revive the story by adding new elements for the new generation of a “New FFVII.”

- Famitsu, August 2020

Toriyama: In terms of keeping things as traditional as possible, the staff who worked on the original game, myself included, had the notion of “making a new game that no one has ever seen before.” With that conscience in mind, we were able to decide the type of direction we wanted to go in the Remake.

- Famitsu, August 2020

...I don’t think what’s been openly expressed about the vision of this project really lends itself to the idea that it is absolutely essential for new players to go through the OG and Compilation first because Remake is a sequel, just seems like a bonus for those who happened to have already gone through it and for those who haven’t, it’s like “hey, if you’d like to see what we’ve done already while you wait for part 2, check this stuff out”

I can’t disagree with this post enough. It’s bewildering. If it was possible to ignore the whispers, don’t you think I would have done so?

And your claim that prior knowledge of the OG isn’t expected is demonstrably false. You scoff at my estimation of the marketing as “apparently deceptive” but how many defenders of the changes have been “We need to be surprised, it would be boring if we just retread the same old story.” Um, that’s a big clue there. All of the twists and turns of Remake are designed to achieve maximum impact the more familiar you are with the compilation. The only example I need to cite is Zack. I can’t take your argument seriously at all when I look at how Zack is used.

As of right now, you could take the Whispers out of the Remake and still have the Midgar section of the OG, it really wouldn’t be that hard of a rewrite. As far as prior knowledge being “expected”, I never said it wasn’t, but it certainly isn’t required given how the devs themselves anticipated new players starting with Remake, hell, it’s exactly what they wanted.

And of course the twists hit harder when you know the OG story, but if it mattered so much that everybody who goes into Remake knows the OG first, wouldn’t they have...said so? As for Zack, it’s pretty bold to use him as an example when we have little to no indication as to how he actually affects the story going forward.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

But is it? Unless I’m mistaken, Ever Crisis only seems to be covering the OG and the rest of the Compilation not including Remake, aside from using assets from Remake it didn’t seem like they’re planning to adapt that version of the story

NKN have revealed that new material not in the Compilation will be in Ever Crisis. The first confirmed one is something about Sephrioth's childhood. And that it will be written by Nojima.

So there's... a lot of room for events we have never heard of in the Compilation being added in to Ever Crisis. Something that might tie in with the Whispers or the nature of what went down in Chapter 18? Could be. Nothing so far is "off-limits" for showing up in Ever Crisis. In fact... the current confirmed list of things that are showing up is "everything in the Compilation that was a game or movie".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But is it? Unless I’m mistaken, Ever Crisis only seems to be covering the OG and the rest of the Compilation not including Remake, aside from using assets from Remake it didn’t seem like they’re planning to adapt that version of the story

My point is that if it were meant to just follow what EC will show, there would be a known journey, not an unknown one. EC is being provided to highlight the contrast.

As for Zack, it’s pretty bold to use him as an example when we have little to no indication as to how he actually affects the story going forward.

There's literally no twist to his scenes if you don't know the original story. =P

And it's not for nothing that the Ultimania for this game highlights the meaning to his survival as one of the game's four biggest mysteries. His victory is only a mystery when one has knowledge of the original course of events.

 

[Ite]

As of right now, you could take the Whispers out of the Remake and still have the Midgar section of the OG, it really wouldn’t be that hard of a rewrite.

I don’t really understand how we are disagreeing. To quote Cloud, “Are you blind?” Like, do you literally not see the whispers interrupting scenes and characters reacting to the whispers and them flying around and carrying people from room to room? They’re f’in everywhere.

...the devs themselves anticipated new players starting with Remake, hell, it’s exactly what they wanted.

On this we agree, although I’ll go a step farther and say that they wanted everyone to be a brand new audience, which is a paradox they did not need to create for themselves. Folks going into the Lord of the Rings movie already having read the books went in with an expectation that they will be less surprised than people going in blind. I think going into a Remake or an adaptation of something you’ve already experienced demanding to be given as many twists and turns as a newbie is weird, and toxic, and the reason we are in this mess, but somehow the people who expected a rote or even a loose adaptation are painted with the toxic brush smh

As for Zack, it’s pretty bold to use him as an example when we have little to no indication as to how he actually affects the story going forward.

I’m talking about specifically how he interrupts the final boss fight by appearing with all the fanfare and cinematic camera of Black Panther in Endgame. An intimate knowledge of the OG and/or a full playthrough of Crisis Core is the difference between the climax of your story being a confusing, contextless mess, or an impactful new entry in a long-running series. It’s either bad storytelling or it’s a sequel. I’ll accept one or the other, but it has to be one.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How are we disputing the connectedness of the Remake to the OG and Compilation, again?

No, the player or audience doesn't need to have played the OG or any of the Compilation to get the jist of the story, and be entertained. However, the more knowledge of the FFVII Series a player has, the deeper through the layers they can go and appreciate what's there. It's accessible but also multilayered in it's lore and premise. Not as impregnable as other games as it serves as fair entry point, but it certainly relies on past experience to derive maximum appreciation of all it's details. Just look at INTERgrade, it's a love letter to Dirge of Cerberus. It exists specifically to expand upon the FFVII lore established 15 years ago.

And the sequel argument is getting quite strange and confusing now. The Remake is not a direct sequel to any specific FFVII Series title BUT it is connected and within the same lore and universe. That's blatantly obvious, which in turn makes it a sequel in the strictest sense. Not a direct sequel, but it's a new link in the chain that is the FFVII Series, which might even be a circular chain! It could be the beginning and the end thanks to being a "Re-quel." It's connected but not directly.

It's sorta like the canon connection that exists between Rockman, Rockman X and Rockman Zero. The stories are all connected through their shared timeline, shared lore and continuously building history but Rockman X is very far removed from Rockman and then Zero is even further removed into the future. But. They're all connected, thematically similar and clearly sequels to each other in the series. However, their temporal removal from each other essentially makes them akin to soft reboots or brand new stories that establish new narratives to pursue.

FFVII Remake is connected 100% to FFVII and the Compilation but through unknown means, it's a different take, with time seemingly in flux for whatever reason. It's not a direct sequel and it seemingly follows FFVII's overall plot, but you'd have to ignore the game itself to think that there's not more beneath the surface that will be revealed that results in this standing alone.

 

[Ite]

I’m using sequel in a very base, broad sense, as in an entry that sequentially follows a prior entry. Circular chains and specific subclasses of this broad term aside, we are in Back to the Future 2 territory, there are two Marty’s at the dance, except the story here is only presented from Marty 1’s unknowing perspective.

Edit: Mako, you are right. You can walk into a movie in the middle and get the jist of it. I skipped Pirates of the Caribbean 2 and missed out on very little. I started watching Walking Dead with Season 4 and got enough info recapitulated that I was prepared for its twists and turns. I saw Henry IV Part 2 first god help me. But what unites all these things is that they’ll actually account for first-time viewers by explaining themselves. My problem with the Zack thing is that it bears zero relevance to the “stand-alone” story of Remake, it comes after zero foreshadowing, it explains itself in no way, interrupts the present action without giving it anything, and relies solely on the meta knowledge of the player and leaves newbies scratching their heads. More than anything, it’s advertised as an @$#%*^ remake...!!!

 

[KindOfBlue]

NKN have revealed that new material not in the Compilation will be in Ever Crisis. The first confirmed one is something about Sephrioth's childhood. And that it will be written by Nojima.

So there's... a lot of room for events we have never heard of in the Compilation being added in to Ever Crisis. Something that might tie in with the Whispers or the nature of what went down in Chapter 18? Could be. Nothing so far is "off-limits" for showing up in Ever Crisis. In fact... the current confirmed list of things that are showing up is "everything in the Compilation that was a game or movie".

But stuff that’s specific to Remake like the Whispers is what I’m looking out for here, it’ll be cool to learn about Sephiroth’s childhood but I’m assuming it’ll be one of those things that fits into both the OG and the remake’s continuities unless they actually do add the Whispers or something

There's literally no twist to his scenes if you don't know the original story. =P

And it's not for nothing that the Ultimania for this game highlights the meaning to his survival as one of the game's four biggest mysteries. His victory is only a mystery when one has knowledge of the original course of events.

Because for those who do know his story already that’s the mystery and for those who don’t, the mystery is who the hell is that guy and what’s he got to do with Cloud. It works for both crowds depending on who you are, but at no point do they say you need to experience the other stuff to understand it. For as massive of a twist as Zack surviving is, we spend so little time with him that I don’t get the sense that the game requires a playthrough of CC when they’ll likely just pick whatever info’s important to the remake and deliver it however they want to.

You’d think they’d do something like how they ended CC with “to be continued in FF7” or something if they’re treating the OG and Compilation as a required prerequisite and not as just “the original version of this new story”. I mean come on now, WE don’t even know what the hell is happening and we’ve gone through all that stuff already, I don’t think it makes that much of a difference at this point.

How are we disputing the connectedness of the Remake to the OG and Compilation, again?

No, the player or audience doesn't need to have played the OG or any of the Compilation to get the jist of the story, and be entertained. However, the more knowledge of the FFVII Series a player has, the deeper through the layers they can go and appreciate what's there. It's accessible but also multilayered in it's lore and premise. Not as impregnable as other games as it serves as fair entry point, but it certainly relies on past experience to derive maximum appreciation of all it's details. Just look at INTERgrade, it's a love letter to Dirge of Cerberus. It exists specifically to expand upon the FFVII lore established 15 years ago.

And the sequel argument is getting quite strange and confusing now. The Remake is not a direct sequel to any specific FFVII Series title BUT it is connected and within the same lore and universe. That's blatantly obvious, which in turn makes it a sequel in the strictest sense. Not a direct sequel, but it's a new link in the chain that is the FFVII Series, which might even be a circular chain! It could be the beginning and the end thanks to being a "Re-quel." It's connected but not directly.

It's sorta like the canon connection that exists between Rockman, Rockman X and Rockman Zero. The stories are all connected through their shared timeline, shared lore and continuously building history but Rockman X is very far removed from Rockman and then Zero is even further removed into the future. But. They're all connected, thematically similar and clearly sequels to each other in the series. However, their temporal removal from each other essentially makes them akin to soft reboots or brand new stories that establish new narratives to pursue.

FFVII Remake is connected 100% to FFVII and the Compilation but through unknown means, it's a different take, with time seemingly in flux for whatever reason. It's not a direct sequel and it seemingly follows FFVII's overall plot, but you'd have to ignore the game itself to think that there's not more beneath the surface that will be revealed that results in this standing alone.

I mean unless we’re also getting loose with what sequel means (meaning any further entries in a series regardless of whether or not it directly follows the original in the broadest sense), everything you said pretty much further cements my point about why “remake” is the most appropriate title

I’m using sequel in a very base, broad sense, as in an entry that sequentially follows a prior entry. Circular chains and specific subclasses of this broad term aside, we are in Back to the Future 2 territory, there are two Marty’s at the dance, except the story here is only presented from Marty 1’s unknowing perspective.

Edit: Mako, you are right. You can walk into a movie in the middle and get the jist of it. I skipped Pirates of the Caribbean 2 and missed out on very little. I started watching Walking Dead with Season 4 and got enough info recapitulated that I was prepared for its twists and turns. I saw Henry IV Part 2 first god help me. But what unites all these things is that they’ll actually account for first-time viewers by explaining themselves. My problem with the Zack thing is that it bears zero relevance to the “stand-alone” story of Remake, it comes after zero foreshadowing, it explains itself in no way, interrupts the present action without giving it anything, and relies solely on the meta knowledge of the player and leaves newbies scratching their heads. More than anything, it’s advertised as an @$#%*^ remake...!!!

This begs the question then, let’s say if Remake didn’t have all the Whisper stuff and Zack surviving. If we’re to use “sequel” in the broadest sense (which I dunno why we wouldn’t then afford that same flexibility to the word “remake”) then wouldn’t this hypothetical version of Remake still be a “sequel” by virtue of being “an entry that sequentially follows a prior entry”? Because at that point what’s happening in the story wouldn’t matter, yet isn’t that the basis of this whole discussion?

 

[Ite]

But stuff that’s specific to Remake like the Whispers is what I’m looking out for here, it’ll be cool to learn about Sephiroth’s childhood but I’m assuming it’ll be one of those things that fits into both the OG and the remake’s continuities unless they actually do add the Whispers or something


Because for those who do know his story already that’s the mystery and for those who don’t, the mystery is who the hell is that guy and what’s he got to do with Cloud. It works for both crowds depending on who you are, but at no point do they say you need to experience the other stuff to understand it. For as massive of a twist as Zack surviving is, we spend so little time with him that I don’t get the sense that the game requires a playthrough of CC when they’ll likely just pick whatever info’s important to the remake and deliver it however they want to.

You’d think they’d do something like how they ended CC with “to be continued in FF7” or something if they’re treating the OG and Compilation as a required prerequisite and not as just “the original version of this new story”. I mean come on now, WE don’t even know what the hell is happening and we’ve gone through all that stuff already, I don’t think it makes that much of a difference at this point.


I mean unless we’re also getting loose with what sequel means (meaning any further entries in a series regardless of whether or not it directly follows the original in the broadest sense), everything you said pretty much further cements my point about why “remake” is the most appropriate title


This begs the question then, let’s say if Remake didn’t have all the Whisper stuff and Zack surviving. If we’re to use “sequel” in the broadest sense (which I dunno why we wouldn’t then afford that same flexibility to the word “remake”) then wouldn’t this hypothetical version of Remake still be a “sequel” by virtue of being “an entry that sequentially follows a prior entry”? Because at that point what’s happening in the story wouldn’t matter, yet isn’t that the basis of this whole discussion?

So you’re saying, if this were a remake, rather than a sequel, would I call it a sequel?

Are... you being deliberately obtuse? Are you really splitting hairs about the word “sequential”? I’m gonna let you puzzle out what I meant on your own there.

 

[OWA-2]

I’m using sequel in a very base, broad sense, as in an entry that sequentially follows a prior entry. Circular chains and specific subclasses of this broad term aside, we are in Back to the Future 2 territory, there are two Marty’s at the dance, except the story here is only presented from Marty 1’s unknowing perspective.

Edit: Mako, you are right. You can walk into a movie in the middle and get the jist of it. I skipped Pirates of the Caribbean 2 and missed out on very little. I started watching Walking Dead with Season 4 and got enough info recapitulated that I was prepared for its twists and turns. I saw Henry IV Part 2 first god help me. But what unites all these things is that they’ll actually account for first-time viewers by explaining themselves. My problem with the Zack thing is that it bears zero relevance to the “stand-alone” story of Remake, it comes after zero foreshadowing, it explains itself in no way, interrupts the present action without giving it anything, and relies solely on the meta knowledge of the player and leaves newbies scratching their heads. More than anything, it’s advertised as an @$#%*^ remake...!!!

Yeah, but I think your criticism would only work, if after finishing the entire Remake project, they still didn't explain what that scene with Zack really meant. But I doubt that's gonna happen. They will explain it.

It's hard to judge Remake right now, since it's an unfinished story.

 

[Ite]

Yeah, but I think your criticism would only work, if after finishing the entire Remake project, they still didn't explain what that scene with Zack really meant. But I doubt that's gonna happen. They will explain it.

It's hard to judge Remake right now, since it's an unfinished story.

I consider each piece of media I encounter both as a standalone work, and (if applicable) a piece of a larger narrative, but the arguments I am making are clearly using one consideration and not both. You can’t counter an argument made using one consideration by using another, it’s bad form.

My argument is that I don’t like this thing that exists, it’s nonsensical to defend it based on a nonexistent potential future work. You wouldn’t refute criticism of the movie Golden Compass a on the basis that it was part of a planned trilogy. That movie never got made, because Golden Compass was a steaming pile of hog.

Besides, I can just as easily turn it around on you. It’s unfair of you to enjoy anything about FF7R because future parts might retroactively fuck it up. Doesn’t that sound ridiculous?