Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Roundhouse]

Mako:

I dunno. I leave that to you Crisis Core experts to figure out. But if I rely on my own memory, wasn't there some scene with -- in fact, let me just go check the wiki and copy paste the scene in question:

'When the fugitives Zack and Cloud are relocated, the Turks, although now near-fugitives themselves, attempt a Priority-S retrieval attempt. After the final orders from Tseng, Cissnei joins her coworkers in the search, citing she had yet to tell Zack her real name and thus must find and save him. The rescue mission fails as Cissnei and the other Turks are unable to get to the fugitive pair before the Shinra military does.'

If this is in relation to when Zack and Cloud are on the run, then it seems like the Turks don't actually want him dead?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Turks aren't "near-fugitives" anymore. Before Crisis happened. They have pledged renewed loyalty to Shinra, with Tseng "executing" his mentor and closest friend to show his loyalty to the company.

Rufus sticking his neck out to save the Turks and keep them from all being summarily executed hinges on them being completely loyal to him and fulfilling their duties faithfully.

So Tseng is supposed to screw all that up and waste what they narrowly got back, by saving Zack and housing him god-knows-where for who-knows-what?

And to what end? Where would Zack go? And Zack is supposed to just accept his freedom being taken away again, just so he can protect some fragile corporate peace the Turks are protecting for themselves and their operatives?

It completely falls apart.

 

[Roundhouse]

I haven't even played BC, so that is interesting to learn.

As for the reasoning, I have no idea -- just trying to think of ways that would enable the 'Zack lives in the current line' angle. I'm actually still open to the alternate line theory, but that has its own problem of feeling inconsequential....unless Zack is able to cross over to the normal line, of course.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Zack is *very* interesting to Shinra from a scientific standpoint (there is some... very ironic dialouge between Zack and Hojo in Chapter 3 of Crisis Core in the SOLDIER Training Room). Especially to Deepground. He's an anomiliy in a lot of ways when it comes to Jenova (for one) and he's got a very werid LImit Break that allows him to copy other's abilities due to that. Deepground would want him for just that reason alone. The only other person we know who somehow can... aquire... other people's abilities is Weiss, who has all the special abilities of the other Tsivets. He just... doesnt need Jenova to do that.

Deepground is very opportunistic when it comes to acquiring people. People are constantly dying down there due to be experimented to death (literally). And anyone who survives that is thrown into a very cut-throat environment where it's... essentially all about being stronger than everyone else who wants to kill you. And Deepground is in the buisness of making supersoldiers. Zack is... basicly the most powerful *known* person in the world at the end of CC. He's stronger than Genesis at least which... sticks him up near Sephrioth's level. And Deepground was interested in Genesis (who was too powerful for them to actually *keep* in Deepground).

It's... kinda a no-brainer that Deepground would be interested in Zack just for that reason. And also because Deepground has a problem when it comes to Weiss. Namely that Weiss is *too strong* and they're worried about losing control of him. Trying to find someone stronger than him to keep in check would be a good thing from their point of view (not that Zack would help them out or anything like that).

If I were to do it, I would have Zack get taken down by surprise. Kind of like how the mall cop equivalent Cloud managed to sucker punch Sephiroth himself in Nibelheim. Just get a Turk to use some sort of disabling weapon or technique from a distance, in a stealthy way, and knock out the weakened Zack. Reno vs Cloud was more of a straight duel, but this would be just like getting sniped.

You are not the first person to suggest this. I know of at least one fan-fic that has... exactly this happen with one of the Turks shooting a load of tranquilizers at Zack for this exact reason.

The Turks really don't want Zack dead. And that is more than just "we're both against Shinra right now". Both CC and BC establish Zack and the Turks going on a few too many (bad) missions together that they... aren't just work acquaintances anymore. The Turks are presented in BC as regretting some stuff they've done, but Zack and Cloud ending up with Hojo is the only thing they feel bad enough about to actually trying to *fix*. It's further complicated by the Turks (especially Tseng) knowing both Aerith and Zack and going... way out of their way to avoid bringing either of them in.

Incidently, letting Zack and Cloud go is the first time the Turks *really* go against Shinra's direct order (you might consider this the second time if the firs time is how they don't turn Aerith in for years). This happens a vew days before they run into Veld again and let him go, which is when Scarlet catches them and finally declares them all traitors to Shinra. They then spend the next ten months being hunted by Shinra and... amazingly not getting caught by them. The entire time, they're looking out for both Veld and Zack and Cloud in the hope that they can find them before Shinra does. And they're holding Rufus hostage the entire time... on paper. Really, he's integral to them finding Veld at all.

The way the timing works out... Zack dies before the Turks get back into Shinra's good graces (and they arguably never actually do this... it's more Heideggar not being able to kill them because Rufus really isn't a good person to make a political enemy out of). Rufus has spent... the last four years with the Turks under house arrest. And by the end of it, he was passing info from Shinra to them *on purpose* and with full knowledge of what they are actually doing with it. There's... no reason he wouldn't know what the Turks were planning *not* to do with Zack. Like... Rufus was pretty much in their base of operations the entire time they were looking for Zack and Veld (around ten months)... and not because the Turks were forcing him to be there either.

I see Rufus not looking the other way for the Turks helping Zack going... very much against how he is presented at the end of Before Crisis (and in Case of Shinra). Whle Rufus is a pragmatist, he also isn't so stupid as to not get how loyalty to other people works. And I have a very hard time seeing him not realize the Turks are loyal to Zack in a certain way. Esspecially as Rufus being understanding about Zack not getting killed has the possibility of him not making an enemy out of Zack in the future either... and it would only serve to give the Turks good reasons to let him keep being their boss.

 

[Roger]

I haven't even played BC, so that is interesting to learn.

As for the reasoning, I have no idea -- just trying to think of ways that would enable the 'Zack lives in the current line' angle. I'm actually still open to the alternate line theory, but that has its own problem of feeling inconsequential....unless Zack is able to cross over to the normal line, of course.

I'm quite open to the idea that Cloud, Tifa, Barret, Aerith and Red XIII exited the singularity in the Terrier timeline while retaining memories of the Beagle timeline. Like remembering Biggs dying when there he is in the ending. Cloud & co aren't seeing the changes as they'be left Midgar. But leave Terrier timeline free to have changes rather then orchestrate things to be same whereever remotely possible.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Zack explicitly becomes an enemy of Shinra. Past amicable bonds with some of the Turks thanks to past joint missions do not override his sincere desire to be free and start a new life with Aerith. His goals are diametrically opposed to the goals of Shinra Corporation. For instance, what does Zack do when the Turks finally pull the trigger and take Aerith into custody and deprive her of her freedom too? Is Zack really going to stand for that, while he's also deprived of his freedom? Zack was willing to die for his freedom, he's not going to willingly accept the loss of his, and especially the loss of Aerith's.

The main question is, why would Shinra (Rufus or anyone affiliated with the higher ups of that corporation) spare expense to allow a renegade SOLDIER operative like him to exist? Why would Rufus expend any sort of energy to give the Turks that sort of "gift?" He's given them generosity already; why go further? Zack is a threat to everything the company stands for and is working towards. And Zack has no reason to hold any loyalty or affection for anything SOLDIER, the Turks, or Shinra at this point. Shinra was willing to kill him. They deprived him of 4 years of his life. He does not hold any nuanced perception or delineation between "Turks" and "Shinra." They're all part of the system that deprived him and Cloud of their basic rights to life, which he is now trying to escape. He knows of Shinra's darkside, and what they truly think of their employees, and he wants none of it. Why would he voluntarily return to that, regardless of it being under the guise of "protection from the Turks?"

The Turks that Zack would be closest to have already quit. Reno and Rude aren't anything close to "friends" and Tseng during FFVII has hardened his heart and is not the young, naive operative friend he was circa Before Crisis or Crisis Core. I sincerely doubt Tseng would let lingering affections or friendship interfere with his duty, given his own character arc that culminated with the most important lesson he took from Before Crisis. The job comes first. Always. Failure to function loyally and professionally puts all of the subordinates he cares for at risk, and he cannot afford to do that again.

If Zack were captured by Deepground, then that leaves two options. He either escapes because he's that strong and further brings heat onto his trail and quest to be free of Shinra, or he's trapped there and essentially gets captured again. Albeit in a worst situation than he was in at the Shinra Manor. Being locked underground in Midgar with a bunch of nutjob freaks isn't much better than being locked underground in Nibelheim.

 

[OWA-2]

It's... kinda a no-brainer that Deepground would be interested in Zack just for that reason. And also because Deepground has a problem when it comes to Weiss. Namely that Weiss is *too strong* and they're worried about losing control of him. Trying to find someone stronger than him to keep in check would be a good thing from their point of view (not that Zack would help them out or anything like that).You are not the first person to suggest this. I know of at least one fan-fic that has... exactly this happen with one of the Turks shooting a load of tranquilizers at Zack for this exact reason.

ShinRa doesn't need someone like Zack to keep Weiss(or anyone else) in line, when the Restrictors can kill anyone with the press of a button.

 

[Roundhouse]

Mako, what about Cissnei?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cissnei isn't a Turk anymore. She quit just like the rest of the Before Crisis era ones did. She's dead according to Shinra records and living undercover.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... and much more likely than Zack existing in some far out timeline for some side quests with Zack.

Why does this "disconnected"/"side quests" style of description keep coming up? =/

I don't think anyone has suggested anything like that, nor is it remotely the only direction available in a multi-timeline scenario -- nor even the most obvious direction. The most obvious direction -- and definitely the one I would expect from a Square Enix title, given their catalog -- is for an alternate timeline that was affected by the protagonists' to be used as a narrative contrast.

Like... Rufus was pretty much in their base of operations the entire time they were looking for Zack and Veld (around ten months)... and not because the Turks were forcing him to be there either.

Maybe? They did take him hostage for three years. Presumably he couldn't just leave whenever he wants, though they did allow him a great deal of Internet freedom, and they had developed a mutual respect by the time he was released.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Maybe? They did take him hostage for three years. Presumably he couldn't just leave whenever he wants, though they did allow him a great deal of Internet freedom, and they had developed a mutual respect by the time he was released.

Well... it's more that at first, Rufus is placed under house arrest under the Turks by his dad for funding AVALANCHE. This goes on for about three years and the Turks *are not* traitors to Shinra at this time. He is in their secret base which... no one else in Shinra knows about (which is somewhere in the Shinra Building of all places!). Rufus does have *access* to Shinra's computers at this time, but Rufus himself can't *change* anything in them since he's under house arrest.

The Turks aren't actually *actively* known to be betraying Shinra until Scarlet caches them cooperating with Veld shortly after Zack and Cloud escape Nibelheim. Which is... sometime in December of 0006. This is when the Turks take advantage of the fact that they (a) have Rufus and (b) Shinra doesn't actually know where they are holding them to blackmail the President. This state of affairs goes on for the next... nine months. Rufus... honestly kinda just hangs around HQ overhearing all the plans Tseng and the Turks are making. We're talking stuff like him being around to hear the conversation Tseng has with the Player Turk when they find Zack and Cloud after they break out... and he knows the Player Turk lets them go as a result of that. He's less interested in making life more difficult or the Turks than he is in pointing out that what they are doing can't ever work because no one's ever succeeding in standing up to Shinra. Actually, if anything he's erring on the side of helping them by giving them info on AVALANCHE's movements and where the Shinra Army is...

After Zack dies, Scarlet manages to capture Veld and Rufus pretty much informs Tseng of it as it's happening (Scarlet really needs to hide her communications better). Namely, he leaks the location Scarlet is holding Veld in to Tseng, who then goes with Reno and Rude to break Veld out. During the fight with Zirconiade, President Shinra finally figures out where the Turks are holding Rufus and breaks him out. Rufus manages to negotiate a deal with his dad where if the Turks kill Veld, they won't be executed anymore. Tsng goes through with this (except not really). Rufus is the one who actually writes the report of the incident and says the execution did happen and that the vast majority of the Turks died... The interesting thing is... it's heavily implied that Rufus and Tseng set-up the "assassination" before hand (and possibly also Rufus getting "found" as well) in a bid to get Shinra to call the hunt for the Turks off while still letting Veld and Elfie get out alive.

Long story short... Rufus is shown as having a good idea of who the Turks care enough about to start bending the rules. And he also knows Zack is on that list. He's a lot more concerned about if the Turks can actually pull off what they are trying to do in BC than he is about how they feel about it. He never says that it's wrong that they feel that way though...

 

[Roger]

If the Zirconiade fight takes place after Zack's death then Cissnei might still be in a Turk in the Zack lives timeline, if she is busy dealing with Zack after they reached him (whatever the heck they were planning to do once they caught up with Zack, I don't know, as Mako says, Zack isn't that keen on indefinite housearrest like Rufus) and thus isn't there for the fight anymore just like Reno, Rude and Tseng. That change might make sense to me. But Tseng and Cissnei aren't clumsy enough to leave the Buster Sword and Cloud (who, unlike most people, they'd already entirely know about) behind, so it doesn't really solve any of the problems people are trying address by going down this road.

 

[Eerie]

I don't think anyone has suggested anything like that, nor is it remotely the only direction available in a multi-timeline scenario -- nor even the most obvious direction. The most obvious direction -- and definitely the one I would expect from a Square Enix title, given their catalog -- is for an alternate timeline that was affected by the protagonists' to be used as a narrative contrast.

This. Zack isn't alive in our timeline, definitely not. He needs to die for Cloud to become Cloud, fake persona included. Zack dying is literally the trigger to Cloud getting out of his comatose state. We're not even sure yet just how Tifa meets up with him after this, but Zack's Last Stand may have been moved way closer to the current timeline than in the OG - Cloud arriving just a mere day before the first mission would indicate that. Yes it's why the failed translation immediately caught my eyes, because it implies so much more. It may also be why the Singularity was able to reach him, because it was mere days before, not months - and this may be the true reason why they moved his Last Stand if they did.

I've always said it, but Zack being alive threatens the whole plot of FFVII, starting with Cloud who can't adopt his persona nor sword. Cloud is just going to become a non-numbered clone if Zack doesn't die. Let's say they per chance meet up with Tifa in Midgar at the train station, then what happens to Cloud? He can't pretend he's an ex-SOLDIER anymore. Zack knows his true self. So what? Can he get out of his comatose self for Tifa? Let's say he can. Then he has no more nystery. No self and identity quest. Cloud is Cloud. He's not a hero. Zack is the hero of the story. Zack then doesn't care about AVALANCHE. He goes straight to Aerith. What happens with the whole subplot of AVALANCHE? Is it something you hear about in the background?

This is why Zack surviving can only happen in a different timeline. At this point, I even expect them to throw this in another game, a novella or whatever rather than have the answers in the main game.

 

[Fiz]

I'm not sure what Rude you looked at, he looked ragged and was extremely out of breath. He was exhausted and desperately worked to complete the mission. You literally see him sweating and panting after he pressed the button.

Okay, fine, he broke a sweat. But my point was that Rude wasn't going down.

I'm quite open to the idea that Cloud, Tifa, Barret, Aerith and Red XIII exited the singularity in the Terrier timeline while retaining memories of the Beagle timeline. Like remembering Biggs dying when there he is in the ending. Cloud & co aren't seeing the changes as they'be left Midgar. But leave Terrier timeline free to have changes rather then orchestrate things to be same whereever remotely possible.

If its multiple timelines, then I think we will be getting something along these lines.

Why does this "disconnected"/"side quests" style of description keep coming up? =/

I don't think anyone has suggested anything like that, nor is it remotely the only direction available in a multi-timeline scenario -- nor even the most obvious direction. The most obvious direction -- and definitely the one I would expect from a Square Enix title, given their catalog -- is for an alternate timeline that was affected by the protagonists' to be used as a narrative contrast.

Because if I take the 4 basic multiple timeline models, I pretty much write one of them off, which leaves me with two plausible scenarios - one that introduces "problems" and another thats disconnected.


1. Two separate timelines: Beagle telling one story, Terrier telling another [Functionally Fate/FF basically]
While this is possible and I feel like this is essentially what you're suggesting, heck it could even be pretty cool. I just don't think its realistic based on scale and structure. That type of scenario would be best left to a seperate line of games, or a spin-off movie or anime. So, I don't see them doing this.


2. Two separate timelines: Beagle telling one story, Terrier telling a small Zack focused story
This is possible and what I was calling "side quests with Zack". The reason I call it disconnected is because it would be a Zack focused side story that exists outside of and has little to no impact on the main story, unless the characters cross over but then we have #3.


3. Timeline Hoppers
Cloud and Co have exited the Singularity into Terrier (or will do so), or Zack is due to make his way into Beagle. I think this is the most probable of the multi-timeline scenarios.


4. Timeline Merge
The timelines have merged in some way, in which case its a single timeline.
Thats why I referred to it in that way.

 

[Fiz]

This. Zack isn't alive in our timeline, definitely not. He needs to die for Cloud to become Cloud, fake persona included. Zack dying is literally the trigger to Cloud getting out of his comatose state. We're not even sure yet just how Tifa meets up with him after this, but Zack's Last Stand may have been moved way closer to the current timeline than in the OG - Cloud arriving just a mere day before the first mission would indicate that. Yes it's why the failed translation immediately caught my eyes, because it implies so much more. It may also be why the Singularity was able to reach him, because it was mere days before, not months - and this may be the true reason why they moved his Last Stand if they did.

I've always said it, but Zack being alive threatens the whole plot of FFVII, starting with Cloud who can't adopt his persona nor sword. Cloud is just going to become a non-numbered clone if Zack doesn't die. Let's say they per chance meet up with Tifa in Midgar at the train station, then what happens to Cloud? He can't pretend he's an ex-SOLDIER anymore. Zack knows his true self. So what? Can he get out of his comatose self for Tifa? Let's say he can. Then he has no more nystery. No self and identity quest. Cloud is Cloud. He's not a hero. Zack is the hero of the story. Zack then doesn't care about AVALANCHE. He goes straight to Aerith. What happens with the whole subplot of AVALANCHE? Is it something you hear about in the background?

This is why Zack surviving can only happen in a different timeline. At this point, I even expect them to throw this in another game, a novella or whatever rather than have the answers in the main game.

It doesn't though. I'm going to break this down into two problems, one thats real and the other thats frankly a made up problem.

Cloud and Zack being separated and Cloud getting to Tifa can be handled in any number of ways. Nothing demands that Zack living immediately undoes Clouds arc.

They can get Cloud to where he needs to be, on the terms he needs to be, with ease. They can retcon Clouds awakening to be later if they have to, they can have Zack give the sword before going on the run rather than dying. Options here are very open.

They can also easily keep Zack from intersecting with Cloud and Co during the Midgar portion. This is one of the easiest and least disruptive things for them to address.


Plot going forward from Midgar is where things get more complicated. But, with careful planning they can prevent Zack and Cloud intersecting until such a time that it doesn't undo anything major. But, that particular issue is now present no matter what. Their paths are going to cross whether its one timeline or two. Unless you're expecting Zack to exist in one timeline and Cloud in another, without them ever intersecting at some point - which is as unlikely as to not be a thing.

 

[Eerie]

In the OG, Zack dying was *crucial* to Cloud's development. The Cloud we see in Remake is the one who has seen Zack dying. Zack not dying threatens the whole plot of FFVII and cannot be handled in the same timeline as a game that shows us a Cloud who has seen Zack dying. I don't know how to point that fact more precisely, honestly. You cannot say Zack can not die and Cloud ends up at the same point he is right now, because... that simply cannot be. There are TWO angular points that made Cloud get out of his comatose state and forge his fake identity: Zack dying and his meeting with Tifa at the train station. If you take out Zack dying, then it's not happening, Cloud is unable to even walk to the train station like a zombie. There's a reason why Cloud answers to Denzel "this is where a hero started his journey" at the place where Zack died. It is such an important moment in his life.

 

[Fiz]

In the OG, Zack dying was *crucial* to Cloud's development. The Cloud we see in Remake is the one who has seen Zack dying. Zack not dying threatens the whole plot of FFVII and cannot be handled in the same timeline as a game that shows us a Cloud who has seen Zack dying. I don't know how to point that fact more precisely, honestly. You cannot say Zack can not die and Cloud ends up at the same point he is right now, because... that simply cannot be. There are TWO angular points that made Cloud get out of his comatose state and forge his fake identity: Zack dying and his meeting with Tifa at the train station. If you take out Zack dying, then it's not happening, Cloud is unable to even walk to the train station like a zombie. There's a reason why Cloud answers to Denzel "this is where a hero started his journey" at the place where Zack died. It is such an important moment in his life.

Honestly, you're falling into the "it happened like this in OG thus its the only way it can happen" trap.

If Zack and Cloud are attacked by the Turks, Deepground or someone else on the way to Midgar leaving Cloud lying in the dirt and Zack being dragged off unconcious (maybe even from Clouds eyes dead), that can easily be the tigger. It can functionally fill the exact same purpose. It's just a different way of getting there.

Also, typically, when someone changes the past in a timetravel/time manipulation story they retain their memories of the original event, and often aren't even aware of the past changes they've created until they've encountered them. All that functionally matters is that Cloud exists and reaches Tifa in the belief he is a Soldier as not to create a paradox.


Even if we assume what you're saying to be true and it does undo Clouds arc, what does this mean for Terrier? It's a timeline that doesn't go anywhere other than Zack doing a continuation of Crisis Core as if FFVII never followed it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well... it's more that at first, Rufus is placed under house arrest under the Turks by his dad for funding AVALANCHE. This goes on for about three years and the Turks *are not* traitors to Shinra at this time. He is in their secret base which... no one else in Shinra knows about (which is somewhere in the Shinra Building of all places!). Rufus does have *access* to Shinra's computers at this time, but Rufus himself can't *change* anything in them since he's under house arrest.

The Turks aren't actually *actively* known to be betraying Shinra until Scarlet caches them cooperating with Veld shortly after Zack and Cloud escape Nibelheim. Which is... sometime in December of 0006. This is when the Turks take advantage of the fact that they (a) have Rufus and (b) Shinra doesn't actually know where they are holding them to blackmail the President. This state of affairs goes on for the next... nine months. Rufus... honestly kinda just hangs around HQ overhearing all the plans Tseng and the Turks are making. We're talking stuff like him being around to hear the conversation Tseng has with the Player Turk when they find Zack and Cloud after they break out... and he knows the Player Turk lets them go as a result of that. He's less interested in making life more difficult or the Turks than he is in pointing out that what they are doing can't ever work because no one's ever succeeding in standing up to Shinra. Actually, if anything he's erring on the side of helping them by giving them info on AVALANCHE's movements and where the Shinra Army is...

After Zack dies, Scarlet manages to capture Veld and Rufus pretty much informs Tseng of it as it's happening (Scarlet really needs to hide her communications better). Namely, he leaks the location Scarlet is holding Veld in to Tseng, who then goes with Reno and Rude to break Veld out. During the fight with Zirconiade, President Shinra finally figures out where the Turks are holding Rufus and breaks him out. Rufus manages to negotiate a deal with his dad where if the Turks kill Veld, they won't be executed anymore. Tsng goes through with this (except not really). Rufus is the one who actually writes the report of the incident and says the execution did happen and that the vast majority of the Turks died... The interesting thing is... it's heavily implied that Rufus and Tseng set-up the "assassination" before hand (and possibly also Rufus getting "found" as well) in a bid to get Shinra to call the hunt for the Turks off while still letting Veld and Elfie get out alive.

Long story short... Rufus is shown as having a good idea of who the Turks care enough about to start bending the rules. And he also knows Zack is on that list. He's a lot more concerned about if the Turks can actually pull off what they are trying to do in BC than he is about how they feel about it. He never says that it's wrong that they feel that way though...

None of this is inaccurate, but Rufus was aware he was a hostage for much longer than nine months. In either case, I think the thrust of my observation was more that his presence wasn't entirely at his own discretion.

I suppose he could have chosen to be in bed instead, but it's not too surprising he'd rather be around for discussion of the not-boring things the Turks were getting up to.

We're not even sure yet just how Tifa meets up with him after this, but Zack's Last Stand may have been moved way closer to the current timeline than in the OG - Cloud arriving just a mere day before the first mission would indicate that.

The timeline in the Remake World Preview book still shows Zack's death where it's supposed to be, so I expect that holds true in the potentially alternate timeline where he lives.

Because if I take the 4 basic multiple timeline models, I pretty much write one of them off, which leaves me with two plausible scenarios - one that introduces "problems" and another thats disconnected.


1. Two separate timelines: Beagle telling one story, Terrier telling another [Functionally Fate/FF basically]
While this is possible and I feel like this is essentially what you're suggesting, heck it could even be pretty cool. I just don't think its realistic based on scale and structure. That type of scenario would be best left to a seperate line of games, or a spin-off movie or anime. So, I don't see them doing this.

Three minutes devoted to "Here's why changing stuff was a bad idea" is a problem of scale??

We're almost definitely getting such a scene in either scenario anyway for Sephiroth to gloat about his evil plan, and how Cloud, et. al. fell right into his trap.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The main question is, why would Shinra (Rufus or anyone affiliated with the higher ups of that corporation) spare expense to allow a renegade SOLDIER operative like him to exist?

Isn’t that a question for the devs to answer themselves though? I mean, they were the ones who wrote the Turks trying to rescue Cloud and Zack in the first place

 

[Eerie]

The timeline in the Remake World Preview book still shows Zack's death where it's supposed to be, so I expect that holds true in the potentially alternate timeline where he lives.

Ah thanks! It's interesting then, why was Cloud's arrival in Midgar postponed in such a way? I can only guess that Nojima really wanted to include the scene where Tifa showed him his room then lol (joking, joking ).

Honestly, you're falling into the "it happened like this in OG thus its the only way it can happen" trap.

But it did happen this way. This is why Hollow as a song exists. You are falling in the trap of "oh but it could have happened another way". If you make it happen another way, Cloud is not Cloud anymore, at least his fake persona has not the meaning it should have. Then the scene in ACC (or was it the extra?) with his answer to Denzel is meaningless. People have pointed out the inconsistencies of what you came up with. There is a strong authorial intent behind what's happening to Cloud. If you take at least one of the reasons away, then you're making holes in your story and main character backstory. I'm not really looking at this under a fan's angle, because yes as a fan I can see this appeal. But when I look at the story and what it proposes instead of the strong and cohesive narrative we had in the OG, and what has been presented to us so far in Remake, then my conclusion is that in Cloud's world, in our current timeline, then Zack has died and he has seen it.

I really wish that the scene they added as a hidden scene in the Shinra mansion in Nibelheim in the OG will be properly added at the end of the Lifestream scene as it should have. It would be really be more integrated to the story like this.

 

[Roundhouse]

Eerie, I get where you're coming from, but if Zack is closed off in a different timeline, how do you see the devs approaching that angle in the remake? I don't believe that they did that big scene at the end of P1 just to set up some sort of spin-off, to be honest.

 

[Eerie]

Aerith interpreted the scene the same as I did: Zack is dead for herself - in this timeline, at least. I mean, she looks longingly at the sky and says she hates it. The only reason, and we're told this by the devs, is this is because the sky has always taken her beloved away - her mother and Zack, to pinpoint it. Why does she say this if she thinks Zack is alive somewhere? Clearly, this is not the case. The cross paths for the last time here. And she knows it because she sees him helping Cloud, and she herself follows Cloud who has Zack's sword but no Zack in sight. So she knows, no matter what, he is not there anymore.

Honestly, the devs giving the answer in another media/game would not be surprising. It wouldn't be the first time either, the novellas and ACC are tied up, you need the novellas to understand ACC and you need ACC to get the ending of the novellas - and that's only with FFVII, pretty sure they also did this in other games. Bonus, they can even create a whole set of Compilation where Zack is alive. I do think that giving a second timeline to play in game or give visions to would make the story too clustered, but maybe they'll chose that path, who knows.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

He needs to die for Cloud to become Cloud, fake persona included. Zack dying is literally the trigger to Cloud getting out of his comatose state.

This is not how the Compilation portrays this happening though. Especially Crisis Core. The last conversation Cloud and Zack have while Zack is dying has Cloud be... more or less in his right mind and aware of what is happening. Especially by the end of it.

Even the OG doesn't present Zack's Death as what triggers Cloud's SOLDIER person. Instead, it is Tifa finding Cloud that does.

Cloud
Zack...

Zack
For the...both of us...

Cloud
Both of us?

Zack
That’s right...you’re gonna...

Cloud
You’re gonna...

Zack
Live.
You’ll be...
my living legacy.
My honor, my dreams,
they’re yours now.

Cloud
I’m your...living legacy...

Zack's
Embrace your dreams.
If you want to be a hero,
you need to have dreams.

Cloud
Thank you.
I won’t forget.
Good night...
Zack.

The irony of the end of Crisis Core is that Cloud promised Zack he would remember him and that it's only *later* forgets Zack. As for when that actually happens... The OG is very helpful in pinning down both when Cloud's SOLDIER persona developed and why it was developed in the first place.

Station Man
What's the matter?

Cloud
ohhh...

Station Man
......poor kid.

Cloud
Ooouugh......

Tifa runs over.

Tifa
Are you all right?

Cloud
oo... uh... agh

Flash.

Cloud
Uh... uh... Tifa...?
Tifa...?

He gets to his feet.

Cloud
Tifa!

Tifa
...............?
Oh, Cloud!

Cloud
That's right. I'm Cloud.

Tifa
Is it really you, Cloud? I never thought I'd find you here!

Cloud
Yeah, it's been a while.

Tifa
What happened to you? You don't look well.

Cloud
......Yeah? It's nothing. I'm okay.

She turns away and he clutches his head for a moment. She turns back.

Tifa
How long has it been?

Flash.

Cloud
Five years.

Tifa
............

Cloud
What is it?

Tifa
...it's really been a long time.

Tifa
Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place?
I always thought it was a sudden decision you made......

Cloud's Thoughts
......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed.

Cloud
......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed.
I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice......

Tifa
Someone to notice you...? ......who?

Cloud's Thoughts
Who......? ......You know who! ......You, that's who.

Cloud
You......

Tifa
......Me? Why!?

]
Cloud
That was the first time I heard about Sephiroth.
If I got strong like Sephiroth, then everyone might...

They return to the nexus.

Cloud
If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......

Tifa
So that was it......
Sorry, Cloud.
If I had only remembered more clearly what happened, I could have done something sooner......

Cloud
It's not your fault, Tifa.

Cloud's SOLDIER persona was never caused by *Zack*. The OG is very clear on why he has a SOLDIER Persona. It has everything to do with Tifa. Specifically, it was how Cloud wanted to get her attention when they were young. And it's no surprise that in the OG, we all but see Cloud have a similar mental melt-down when Tifa finds him as he does in Remake. That's... quite literally when his SOLDIER persona is being created for the first time.

And this is why I think Zack surviving doesn't matter when it comes to Cloud making his SOLDIER persona. So long as Cloud meets Tifa, the odds are good that it will probably form. Because Cloud wants to be how he thinks Tifa wants to see him more than anything else. That's been his driving force since he was thirteen.

So the question for me for "alternate timelines" is "Does Cloud meet with Tifa in Midgar?" And so long as he does, he'll probably form his SOLDIER persona even if Zack is alive. Cloud never wants to be weak in front of Tifa. He wants to be strong. So he makes himself strong for her.

 

[Eerie]

Even the OG doesn't present Zack's Death as what triggers Cloud's SOLDIER person. Instead, it is Tifa finding Cloud that does.

I said this:

He needs to die for Cloud to become Cloud, fake persona included. Zack dying is literally the trigger to Cloud getting out of his comatose state.

And it is exactly what I said. Cloud was in a comatose state when Zack fought his Last Stand. Him dying was the trigger to get OUT OF HIS COMATOSE STATE. Zack needs to die because he's the one who's able t o tell that Cloud is not an ex-SOLDIER. I really don't know how to write it more clearly so I'll stop there because really, it's exhausting my god.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Tifa
"Cloud...? Hey Cloud! Been a long time yo little punk! Wuzzup!"

Barret
"Hey, Tifa... may you please introduce this mister to me? "

Cloud
"Huh... Look at my eyes! I'm a cool Soldier 1st Class! This guy here is my assistant, he keeps my sword sharp and clean. "

Barret
""

Zack
""

Tifa & Zack
"Sure... "

Sephiroth
"(All according to keikaku...)"