Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[OWA-2]

I consider each piece of media I encounter both as a standalone work, and (if applicable) a piece of a larger narrative, but the arguments I am making are clearly using one consideration and not both. You can’t counter an argument made using one consideration by using another, it’s bad form.

My argument is that I don’t like this thing that exists, it’s nonsensical to defend it based on a nonexistent potential future work. You wouldn’t refute criticism of the movie Golden Compass a on the basis that it was part of a planned trilogy. That movie never got made, because Golden Compass was a steaming pile of hog.

Besides, I can just as easily turn it around on you. It’s unfair of you to enjoy anything about FF7R because future parts might retroactively fuck it up. Doesn’t that sound ridiculous?

I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's to early to judge.

 

[KindOfBlue]

So you’re saying, if this were a remake, rather than a sequel, would I call it a sequel?

Are... you being deliberately obtuse? Are you really splitting hairs about the word “sequential”? I’m gonna let you puzzle out what I meant on your own there.

I’m saying that your metric for whether or not Remake is a sequel, based on the definition you gave, seems to have less to do with the content of the story itself and more to do with Remake being the next installment of the Compilation, in which case it wouldn’t matter if Remake made the changes that it made based on the broadest definition of “sequel”. Which goes back to my point, why not offer that flexibility to the word “remake”?

Being somebody who dislikes the changes the way you do, I would’ve expected you to prefer to call it a remake because at least that still maintains a level of separation from the original. If it actually were a sequel, wouldn’t those changes retroactively make the OG worse if you hate them so much?

Look, I’m just trying to understand why calling this a sequel and not a remake makes what’s going on here any easier to swallow, is all.

Like, do you literally not see the whispers interrupting scenes and characters reacting to the whispers and them flying around and carrying people from room to room? They’re f’in everywhere.

Take a scene with the Whispers, now imagine that scene without them or imagine the scene itself being skipped. There, boogeyman’s gone, narrative still works, story continues as desired, rinse and repeat. That’s pretty much how I treat the filler sections, my brain just tunes them out. Don’t like Chapter 18? Pretend the game ends at 17.

But what about Zack? Well, if he ends up joining the party or something and the story ends up going in such a different direction that there’s little to nothing recognizable from the OG that can be pulled from the scrap heap, then I’ll be right there with you. At the moment though, I’m treating this all as one big, roundabout way to get to our destination. The scenic route, confusing as it may be.

An intimate knowledge of the OG and/or a full playthrough of Crisis Core is the difference between the climax of your story being a confusing, contextless mess, or an impactful new entry in a long-running series. It’s either bad storytelling or it’s a sequel. I’ll accept one or the other, but it has to be one.

I don’t know why it has to be one or the other and not both or neither, but like I said, knowing Crisis Core doesn’t seem to be doing any of us any favors seeing as nobody here knows what the hell is happening anyways. As far as those who don’t have that knowledge, I mean the reactions I saw boiled down to “who’s that guy” and “that’s probably the guy Aerith was talking about”. Fighting Sephiroth was the main attraction of that chapter anyways, so the Zack thing also works as a teaser of what’s to come. A mystery for those who know him, and a mystery for those who don’t.

 

[Fiz]

But what about Zack? Well, if he up joining the party or something and the story ends up going in such a different direction that there’s little to nothing recognizable from the OG that can be pulled from the scrap heap, then I’ll be right there with you. At the moment though, I’m treating this all as one big, roundabout way to get to our destination. The scenic route, confusing as it may be.

Depends how and when he joins the group doesn’t it?

I don’t know why it has to be one or the other and not both or neither, but like I said, knowing Crisis Core doesn’t seem to be doing any of us any favors seeing as nobody here knows what the hell is happening anyways. As far as those who don’t have that knowledge, I mean the reactions I saw boiled down to “who’s that guy” and “that’s probably the guy Aerith was talking about”. Fighting Sephiroth was the main attraction of that chapter anyways, so the Zack thing also works as a teaser of what’s to come. A mystery for those who know him, and a mystery for those who don’t.

^ this. From what I’ve seen of blind, newbie reactions, Zacks appearance is a mystery that’s been introduced to be fleshed later. Mostly picking up on that Zack is connected to something to do with Cloud, probably Aeriths first love, and then that the 3 are connected in some way.

For newbies it just introduced a new thread revealing a new character that connects the characters.

That Zack has some significant relevance to Cloud is patently obvious, and that he is the first love that Aerith was asking Cloud about is also fairly obvious.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Depends how and when he joins the group doesn’t it?

Exactly, that’s why I’m still in that area of being curious of what’s to come. When I actually see what they do with Zack being alive, then I’ll have more to say about it but right now I’m just like “damn, these madmen actually went there? Alright, let’s see where it goes...”

For some, the very idea of Zack being alive is irredeemable no matter how good or bad the story actually is, which I think is unfair but understandable. I imagine killing Tifa instead of Aerith would evoke a similar reaction out of me, but I just need more info before I can come to a conclusion. We all do, honestly.

^ this. From what I’ve seen of blind, newbie reactions, Zacks appearance is a mystery that’s been introduced to be fleshed later. Mostly picking up on that Zack is connected to something to do with Cloud, probably Aeriths first love, and then that the 3 are connected in some way.

For newbies it just introduced a new thread revealing a new character that connects the characters.

That Zack has some significant relevance to Cloud is patently obvious, and that he is the first love that Aerith was asking Cloud about is also fairly obvious.

Now, if it was a sequel, you’d have to play Crisis Core. Which presents a problem: Crisis Core has a lot of nonsense wrapped up in all the feels. So wouldn’t treating this game as a remake be a good opportunity to just pick the good stuff from Crisis Core, leave out the bad, and deliver that info to the audience in a way that fits nicely into Remake?

Because that’s how I interpret Remake’s relationship to the rest of the Compilation based on what the devs have said. They can streamline whatever they want to streamline, ignore whatever they want to ignore, etc. Is Remake’s version of the Nibelheim incident going to include Genesis? Well, if it’s a remake, ignore that shit and move on. But if it’s a sequel? Well, now you gotta address it right?

 

[Fiz]

Exactly, that’s why I’m still in that area of being curious of what’s to come. When I actually see what they do with Zack being alive, then I’ll have more to say about it but right now I’m just like “damn, these madmen actually went there? Alright, let’s see where it goes...”

For some, the very idea of Zack being alive is irredeemable no matter how good or bad the story actually is, which I think is unfair but understandable. I imagine killing Tifa instead of Aerith would evoke a similar reaction out of me, but I just need more info before I can come to a conclusion. We all do, honestly.


Now, if it was a sequel, you’d have to play Crisis Core. Which presents a problem: Crisis Core has a lot of nonsense wrapped up in all the feels. So wouldn’t treating this game as a remake be a good opportunity to just pick the good stuff from Crisis Core, leave out the bad, and deliver that info to the audience in a way that fits nicely into Remake?

Because that’s how I interpret Remake’s relationship to the rest of the Compilation based on what the devs have said. They can streamline whatever they want to streamline, ignore whatever they want to ignore, etc. Is Remake’s version of the Nibelheim incident going to include Genesis? Well, if it’s a remake, ignore that shit and move on. But if it’s a sequel? Well, now you gotta address it right?

Well, I consider Remake to be a soft reboot, wrapped up as a remake/sequel hybrid. If that’s the case then they can be quite fluid, it gives them a lot of freedom to basically do whatever they want without worrying about canonical integrity.

 

[ForceStealer]

As though Square has ever cared about canonical integrity

 

[Fiz]

As though Square has ever cared about canonical integrity

Lol, you know what I mean

 

[OWA-2]

^ this. From what I’ve seen of blind, newbie reactions, Zacks appearance is a mystery that’s been introduced to be fleshed later. Mostly picking up on that Zack is connected to something to do with Cloud, probably Aeriths first love, and then that the 3 are connected in some way.

For newbies it just introduced a new thread revealing a new character that connects the characters.

That Zack has some significant relevance to Cloud is patently obvious, and that he is the first love that Aerith was asking Cloud about is also fairly obvious.

Yup.
By showing Zack in Remake, they aren't saying "Quick, go play Crisis Core to know who he is!!". They are saying "Who is this guy? Well, you will have to wait to find out".

 

[ultima786]

Yup.
By showing Zack in Remake, they aren't saying "Quick, go play Crisis Core to know who he is!!". They are saying "Who is this guy? Well, you will have to wait to find out".

Right. If that was their plan, they would have had a remastered Crisis Core available by now. They are simply creating mystery for the new generation of FF7 fans.
Of course old players benefit greatly from our history with the franchise, and it adds layers of meaning to our play through .

 

[Clement Rage]

So out of curiousity, how do y'all feel about the difference between Terminator Genisys and Dark Fate?

One does in universe retcons due to timeline meddling, another does out of universe retcons due to creator meddling, Which of these is more palatable to y'all, and why? Does it matter? If one over the other is more objectionable, why so, and is your reasoning out of universe or in universe?

 

[Roundhouse]

One reactor I saw said something like they thought Zack was Cloud and Tifa's son.

 

[Ite]

So out of curiousity, how do y'all feel about the difference between Terminator Genisys and Dark Fate?

One does in universe retcons due to timeline meddling, another does out of universe retcons due to creator meddling, Which of these is more palatable to y'all, and why? Does it matter? If one over the other is more objectionable, why so, and is your reasoning out of universe or in universe?

Spoiler: “Spoilers for Genesys”

Terminator’s an interesting case (I haven’t seen Dark Fate) because of the way the TT works, there are no true retcons because the whole thing is 4D chess with Skynet Central as one King and John Conner as the other. The whole series before Genesys was Skynet, in check at some point in the future, continually changing the past trying to get out of check, but with Genesys, Skynet wins the whole game by killing John, so I kind of tuned out by the end of the movie. While I didn’t enjoy Genesys much at all, I didn’t feel like I was being purposefully jerked around by a writer at the expense of the story (as I felt with the twists of FF7R) I felt like they were trying to write an interesting TT action drama, but in the end the story suffered for it.

When I direct a play and make cuts to the script or make choices with lighting/sound/staging, my consideration is first and foremost: what’s good for the story? Not good for the audience, nor the creator, but the story first. If the story is in alignment with itself, an audience will be impacted. If a story is in alignment with itself, the creator is well represented.

Spoiler: “Classical Poetry”

It’s weird. I’m revisiting Homer right now, and I’d previously been under the wrong assumption that the western tradition of oral storytelling was similar to the eastern tradition of dance performance. Poets, like noh dancers, would memorize and recite with precision, with the “game of telephone” changes happening imperceptibly over the centuries. Not the case apparently. I’m learning now that pretty much every western oral poet changed their verses on the fly based on whatever the local attitude was on the subject matter. Rather than retcon the plot, however (like, say, a post-9/11 FF7R toning down the terrorism) the poet would instead treat the events of the story as canon but reframe them (so, rather than change who made the reactor explode, a poet in front of an audience recently shaken by a terrorist attack might wax about how lamentable and evil AVALANCHE’s act was, and the Pillar fall would be framed more as poetic justice or penance.) The classical poet’s imeptus to change their recital was all about managing audience reaction, similar to how we saw the mean-spirited bouffon Wall Market become... Chapter 9 *heavenly bells*

It’s challenging my views to think about Homer in this way.

Canonizing stories with writing is a new and landmine-ridden development, and permanizing a director’s tone and framing choices with film, television, and games is even more new and rife with regrets. How often do we “revisit” old sitcoms and cringe at the gay jokes and the way the tone mocks climate change or other issues?

This is why Remakes are exciting opportunities. Think! A version of FF7 where Tifa doesn’t say “retarded.” Remake’s Honeybee Inn is the fulfilment of this promise, a really savvy alteration, the same kind a master poet might make when it’s their turn to deliver the story to an audience. These things are changes coming from the outside, not naturally engendered within the logic of the fiction but put upon the story through calculated action.

Does it serve the story though? Well I liked Chapter 9 a whole lot better than Terminator: Genesys. So I guess it doesn’t matter to me where the changes come from as long as they serve the story.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Well, I consider Remake to be a soft reboot, wrapped up as a remake/sequel hybrid. If that’s the case then they can be quite fluid, it gives them a lot of freedom to basically do whatever they want without worrying about canonical integrity.

I guess in a way, reboots are remakes of their own but with a term like “soft reboot”, I don’t really think of a retelling of a story the way Remake retells the OG

Yup.
By showing Zack in Remake, they aren't saying "Quick, go play Crisis Core to know who he is!!". They are saying "Who is this guy? Well, you will have to wait to find out".

Especially when playing Crisis Core ruins the reveal in the Lifestream of what really went down in Nibelheim for new players

 

[Obsidian Fire]

knowing Crisis Core doesn’t seem to be doing any of us any favors seeing as nobody here knows what the hell is happening anyway

As much as people complain about Crisis Core having a lot of "nonsense", it's funny how much of the "nonsense" feels like the stuff in Remake. Or rather, the Compilation added in a lot of "nonsense" to the story/world of OG and so is Remake and it all feels like the same kind of linked "nonsense".

This is to the point where me and some other people are drawing thematic parallels between the "nonsense" of Remake and the "nonsense" of Crisis Core. We just... kinda never do it *here* because it inevitably turns into people complaining about Crisis Core and how it wrecked FFVII and how people wish it kinda just went away and stopped being a thing in the FFVII universe.

If you're someone actually trying to figure out what the "nonsense" means... it's not really fun being around people who call it (and treat it as) "nonsense".

 

[KindOfBlue]

As much as people complain about Crisis Core having a lot of "nonsense", it's funny how much of the "nonsense" feels like the stuff in Remake. Or rather, the Compilation added in a lot of "nonsense" to the story/world of OG and so is Remake and it all feels like the same kind of linked "nonsense".

This is to the point where me and some other people are drawing thematic parallels between the "nonsense" of Remake and the "nonsense" of Crisis Core. We just... kinda never do it *here* because it inevitably turns into people complaining about Crisis Core and how it wrecked FFVII and how people wish it kinda just went away and stopped being a thing in the FFVII universe.

If you're someone actually trying to figure out what the "nonsense" means... it's not really fun being around people who call it (and treat it as) "nonsense".

I’ll do you one better and say there’s a lot of nonsense in the OG as well. Hell, it perplexes me how much nonsense in the OG gets a pass by people who hated how the remake turned out.

But see, that’s kind of why I love this world so much. Generally, I don’t care much for fantasy stories so I was pretty uninitiated when I first went on this journey a year ago. Through this, I realized that I can sit through pretty much anything as long as you give me some good characters, and boy does FF7 have some excellent characters.

I think the nonsensical nature of this universe becomes more apparent to me when people try to make sense out of every single thing by overanalyzing it to hell. I get the sense some people remember FF7 as this super dark and serious story because they may have been kids the first time they played it (there’s definitely dark moments sure, but a whole lot of silly ones too) so when people say stuff like “wtf this isn’t FF7” I can usually point to a moment in the OG that was of comparable levels of silliness. But people here are generally a lot more reasonable though, which is what attracted me to this forum actually.

Anyways, there’s a lot of stuff in CC that I could do without but I still like it, I’ve seen some complaints but I actually didn’t realize people went as far as saying CC ruined FF7. I noticed shippers who didn’t like Zack and Aerith getting attention, but shippers gonna ship. I mostly just hated Genesis but seeing as he rarely comes up outside of CC, I just shrugged him off.

 

[Eerie]

Yup.
By showing Zack in Remake, they aren't saying "Quick, go play Crisis Core to know who he is!!". They are saying "Who is this guy? Well, you will have to wait to find out".

I disagree. That's precisely why they're hyping the OG and the Compilation. It's to have people theorise and wonder about Zack and Aerith's fates. They don't have to hide it anymore, since old players know about it. So as I said, them fueling the OG+Compilation has to do with how they use tropes. They want us to love Aerith without pushing her as the love interest, and be worried for her simply b ecause she is Aerith. They want us to be excited because, what the hell has happened to Zack exactly, will it matter for Remake or not?

By doing this, they allow themselves a little more time to work on the second part of Remake. We know from previous franchises, that they prefer a short time between releases as to not let the hype die. But Remake part 2 could take more time to work on than 2 years, which means they need the hype to be high AND entertained (next year we will play those mobile games) in between the two big releases.

 

[Fiz]

I disagree. That's precisely why they're hyping the OG and the Compilation. It's to have people theorise and wonder about Zack and Aerith's fates. They don't have to hide it anymore, since old players know about it. So as I said, them fueling the OG+Compilation has to do with how they use tropes. They want us to love Aerith without pushing her as the love interest, and be worried for her simply b ecause she is Aerith. They want us to be excited because, what the hell has happened to Zack exactly, will it matter for Remake or not?

By doing this, they allow themselves a little more time to work on the second part of Remake. We know from previous franchises, that they prefer a short time between releases as to not let the hype die. But Remake part 2 could take more time to work on than 2 years, which means they need the hype to be high AND entertained (next year we will play those mobile games) in between the two big releases.

I agree, and this is why I hope they commit to what they allude to, and do something interesting with them - otherwise it becomes really transparent that it was all just to create hype. It becomes quite anticlimactic otherwise.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I disagree. That's precisely why they're hyping the OG and the Compilation. It's to have people theorise and wonder about Zack and Aerith's fates. They don't have to hide it anymore, since old players know about it. So as I said, them fueling the OG+Compilation has to do with how they use tropes. They want us to love Aerith without pushing her as the love interest, and be worried for her simply b ecause she is Aerith. They want us to be excited because, what the hell has happened to Zack exactly, will it matter for Remake or not?

By doing this, they allow themselves a little more time to work on the second part of Remake. We know from previous franchises, that they prefer a short time between releases as to not let the hype die. But Remake part 2 could take more time to work on than 2 years, which means they need the hype to be high AND entertained (next year we will play those mobile games) in between the two big releases.

All of that is true but mainly for old players I think, for new players it’s going to be a different experience and it’s inevitable that some may want to avoid supplementary materials so as to not spoil the remake. Otherwise I think the devs would have much more blatantly told everybody you have to go through the OG and Compilation but I get the sense that they just want to make that stuff more accessible for those who may be interested, not so much something that’s required.

 

[Eerie]

In literally the first interview after Remake's release (in the Ultimania), they basically told everyone to go play the OG sooooo...

 

[Clement Rage]

How willing people are to engage matters a lot to what is nonsense and what isn't. CC is pretty straightforward. Genesis is terminally ill, wants a cure and/or revenge Angeal wants to save him while not becoming a tool to make monsters, Sephiroth wants his friends back, Zack wants to stop Genesis and take care of his friends.

I think we're tripping ourselves up by being overly rigid with definitions here, as though the devs had one defined intent that was set in stone and not deviated from. They didn't spend millions of dollars and years of their lives for the purposes of trolling internet forum users.

They would have been aware that the game was going to be be played by old hands as well as new fans. The game has to be designed with both those people in mind, and neither approach is the one true way that Nojima found written in stone on a mountaintop. They have to be aware that not everyone is going to have played the compilation, or know it (how many of us have even played BC), and so the game has to work for them as well as the old hands.

If you watch old episodes of the Simpsons, you will find layered jokes, with different things intended for different parts of the audience. It's not that either approach is right or wrong, both of them are valid ways to be a viewer.

Most likely, what they're going for is for old hands to be 'huh, Zack's back...what are the ramifications of that' and the new players to be 'huh, who's that guy, I guess it's going to be explained later.'

The devs are not opposed to people going back and playing the compilation, but if people don't, it's not like they're doing anything wrong or not true fans or something. Both approaches are perfectly valid and neither is going to be unanticipated by the creators.

 

[KindOfBlue]

In literally the first interview after Remake's release (in the Ultimania), they basically told everyone to go play the OG sooooo...

Nomura: However, personally, I think there might be some who think “Since this is the Remake, I don’t need to play the original game anymore and just play the Remake instead,” but I want to prevent people from doing that. The original and the Remake are two separate entities. So even if you play FFVII Remake, I would also like you to play the FFVII original game afterwards as well.

In the exact same statement, Nomura says “the original and the Remake are two separate entities” and prefaces his statements with “personally, I think”. That’s hardly a thing you tell people if you specifically want them to treat the OG as a prerequisite for Remake, so it seems like they just want to give players as many options as they can. I took it as, “give us as much money as possible” but either way, “I would like you to” =/= “you absolutely have to”.

 

[Ite]

While I think that was a creative decision primarily and not a financial decision, it’s simply antithetical to how I would have approached the project, or wanted the project to be approached by anyone. The few ways in which I think 7R truly fails (for me and many others) all flow out from that decision.

 

[Eerie]

In the exact same statement, Nomura says “the original and the Remake are two separate entities” and prefaces his statements with “personally, I think”. That’s hardly a thing you tell people if you specifically want them to treat the OG as a prerequisite for Remake, so it seems like they just want to give players as many options as they can. I took it as, “give us as much money as possible” but either way, “I would like you to” =/= “you absolutely have to”.

He is Japanese. It's absolutely the most polite way to say "go play the OG". He could have said "for those who want to play the OG, they can without being worried" but that's not what he said. "I would like you to" is absolutely a way to push newcomers to go play the old game.

 

[KindOfBlue]

He is Japanese. It's absolutely the most polite way to say "go play the OG". He could have said "for those who want to play the OG, they can without being worried" but that's not what he said. "I would like you to" is absolutely a way to push newcomers to go play the old game.

It’s a push but it’s not a mandate, they’ve got all the advertising money in the world to push everybody towards the OG only to have such a major point be relegated to the polite words of the former director’s personal opinion in an ultimania

 

[Eerie]

They're not going to mandate everyone to play the OG. But they push it like crazyyyyyyyyyyy. To be denying this, IDK, have you looked at the mobile game fort next year? If they didn't care, they wouldn't be releasing the OG, the Compilation (including ACC!!) and BONUS CONTENT just for the old players like us. They want everyone to play it. Will everyone play? Hell no. Of course not. But the majority? I bet they will.