Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal

[Harley Quinn]

I suspect that this has been discussed and if so my apologies. I was playing CC last night and it had me thinking. It stated throughout the game that Genesis and Angeal were Sephiroth's only friends. But where they truly friends?

I know Genesis got Angeal to join with him as he idolised Sephiroth which turned into jealousy.

Even their duel before Genesis started to degrade from the little we saw i really didn't get the impression that Genesis even liked Sephiroth. Angeal just seems to take the role of trying to keep Genesis in check. And doesn't seem to have that much interaction with Sephiroth.

They both leave without telling him why, which I know Genesis had started to degrade but if the three of them were such good friends surely Sephiroth would've been told?

And the only person that seems to have any loyalty in the group was Sephiroth correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Sephiroth talk about leaving ShinRa because of his orders to fight his former friends?

Which leads me into the next thing of Sephiroth had wanted to leave what would ShinRa have done? I know they'd not want him to leave but I don't think they'd want to turn their poster boy into a traitor.

And lastly Zack even seems disappointed when he meets Sephiroth. Why?

 

[Octo]

Yeah it's been ages since I played CC but Sephiroth refuses to go after Angeal and/or Genesis.

Which begs the question, if he can refuse orders what else can he refuse and why didn't he?

And I didn't get much impression of friendship, but that's what happens when you shoehorn in new characters based on your musical tastes

 

[Shademp]

Going by what Sephiroth said, even he is unsure of how tight their connection was.

Sephiroth: We used to sneak in there for fun, when the 2nds were out... Genesis, Angeal, and I...

Zack: You guys were pretty tight.

Sephiroth: Humph, I wonder...

 

[jazzflower92]

The two certainly had a bond with Sephiroth that made him consider them to be his closest friends. I mean from the looks of it, he grew up not having very strong bonds with anyone.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Yeah it's been ages since I played CC but Sephiroth refuses to go after Angeal and/or Genesis.

Which begs the question, if he can refuse orders what else can he refuse and why didn't he?

And I didn't get much impression of friendship, but that's what happens when you shoehorn in new characters based on your musical tastes

I know I never understood why he just didn't leave. It's not like he had anyone that he cared about or vice versa.

Damn you Gackt! And I don't know if it's true but I heard that the reason CC won't be released to the PS store because most of the money would go to Gackt in royalties. Again I don't know if it's true.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The two certainly had a bond with Sephiroth that made him consider them to be his closest friends. I mean from the looks of it, he grew up not having very strong bonds with anyone.

I think that was Sephiroth's interpretation with not having any close bonds. He assumed they were all friends and which both Genesis and Angeal proved that this wasn't the case. Genesis was there to become better than Sephiroth and Angeal? He only joined SOLIDER because of Genesis.

 

[Octo]

The two certainly had a bond with Sephiroth that made him consider them to be his closest friends. I mean from the looks of it, he grew up not having very strong bonds with anyone.

Thats true, a lot is made of the friendships in FFVII, but like, I think it's all relative. They say Aerith and Tifa were best friends, and its like, really? They were thrown together in an adverse situation.

I guess it's all relative. So maybe what Sephiroth had was the closest thing to a friendship, even if it wasn't that strong.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The two certainly had a bond with Sephiroth that made him consider them to be his closest friends. I mean from the looks of it, he grew up not having very strong bonds with anyone.

Thats true, a lot is made of the friendships in FFVII, but like, I think it's all relative. They say Aerith and Tifa were best friends, and its like, really? They were thrown together in an adverse situation.

I guess it's all relative. So maybe what Sephiroth had was the closest thing to a friendship, even if it wasn't that strong.

Aerith the and Tifa were certainly closer than Sephiroth and the other two. And when I played on FFVII I didn't think Aerith and Tifa were that close.

I still think it was all a one sided relationship with Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Some older threads on Genesis that might be relevant...

https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9954
https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13017
https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13518
https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14056

Keep in mind that Genesis and Angeal have known each other since they were kids. The relationship they have is a lot different then the one they have with Sephrioth. And yeah, "normal" standards of friendship don't really apply to Sephiroth. I wouldn't doubt that the relationship he had with them was the most normal relationship he ever had before or since. It was probably the first time he'd ever met people who were anywhere near close to the same level he was (and even then he can defeat them 2v1). He wouldn't meet another person like that until he went up against Cloud.

As far as Genesis goes, admiration and jealousy can be very close emotions for some people. It isn't that hard to go from admiring someone's abilities to being jealous that you don't have them.

 

[Unit-01]

With Sephiroth wanting to leave Shinra, I've always been under the notion that it was kinda foreshadowing for the Nibelheim incident.

However now that you point it out, I feel like if he had to kill both of them he would've left. But since we know Zack ended up killing Angeal and defeating Genesis he was spared having to do it himself.

Relating to their friendship, my belief was they were close friends. But just over time(especially after Genesis started degrading) it went down hill. Also I chalk it up to unseen bonding. CC's focus was on Zack and to dedicate an entire CGI scene to Sephiroth vs Angel and Genesis was a lot.
______________________________
I got more than a 1/4 of a way through my 2nd 100% play-though on CC and then just stopped. Have my PSP right there too, I should bother to pick it up and finish it at some point.

Also there is some BS that prevents CC from being Remastered. I forget what, but I don't think it has anything to do with Gackt. Some say it's because of him, and others say it's not. I don't know for 100% but they should get around to doing a remaster of CC. I'm a bit surprised my fat PSP has been holding up for almost 10 years.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Yeah it's been ages since I played CC but Sephiroth refuses to go after Angeal and/or Genesis.

Which begs the question, if he can refuse orders what else can he refuse and why didn't he?

And I didn't get much impression of friendship, but that's what happens when you shoehorn in new characters based on your musical tastes

It was a bit obvious that Sephiroth was a bit angered on the betrayal. On the other hand, he did try to find them without killing them since he had the similiar feelings on not wanting to kill them like Zack. I mean, he had the chance to kill Genesis in the Mako Reactor and yet didn't do it.

Example.

Sephiroth: You and I will find them before they do and-

Zack: (yells into the phone) And WHAT!?

Sephiroth:....Fail to eliminate them.

Zack: For real?

Sephiroth: *chuckles* Yes, for real.

Zack: Excellent! Uh, Probably!

And I actually kind of like Genesis. It's Angeal who doesn't appeal to me that much. I actually feel sorry for the former despite knowing that both of them had it tough. I have sympathy to all three of them.

The ones that I don't forgive are the scientests, Rufus's old man-the old Prez, Scarlet and Heidegger.

The two certainly had a bond with Sephiroth that made him consider them to be his closest friends. I mean from the looks of it, he grew up not having very strong bonds with anyone.

100% of that blame goes to Hojo. It's no thanks to him that Sephiroth never knew about his real mother or even grew up being at least a normal child. He was already doomed before he was even born.

I know I never understood why he just didn't leave. It's not like he had anyone that he cared about or vice versa.

Damn you Gackt! And I don't know if it's true but I heard that the reason CC won't be released to the PS store because most of the money would go to Gackt in royalties. Again I don't know if it's true.

I think it's mainly because he agreed to have his concert design for the design of Genesis. I don't think that's fully tre on the rumor, but Tabata doesn't want to port it up to PS4 because, and I quote, "Everyone's already got the english version of the game" during the remaster of Type-0.

I think that was Sephiroth's interpretation with not having any close bonds. He assumed they were all friends and which both Genesis and Angeal proved that this wasn't the case. Genesis was there to become better than Sephiroth and Angeal? He only joined SOLIDER because of Genesis.

Genesis was jealous because Sephiroth was the hero of ShinRa. Not to mention that he took the LOVELESS thing way too seriously.

The two certainly had a bond with Sephiroth that made him consider them to be his closest friends. I mean from the looks of it, he grew up not having very strong bonds with anyone.

Thats true, a lot is made of the friendships in FFVII, but like, I think it's all relative. They say Aerith and Tifa were best friends, and its like, really? They were thrown together in an adverse situation.

I guess it's all relative. So maybe what Sephiroth had was the closest thing to a friendship, even if it wasn't that strong.

Probably because they were closer to him in age and everyone else didn't want to risk in getting their heads bitten off by Sephiroth at the time.

Plus, friendship is a funny thing to make up, whether people are children or not. I mean, off a bit topic, but take the whacky relationship of Captain Jack Sparrow and Will Turner in Pirates of the Caribbean films for example. Sometimes an adventure brings people either together or make enemies.

That's what I think, anyway.

Aerith the and Tifa were certainly closer than Sephiroth and the other two. And when I played on FFVII I didn't think Aerith and Tifa were that close.

I still think it was all a one sided relationship with Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal.

Yeah, and Tifa was devastated when Aerith was killed. Yuffie was too, in fact.

Some older threads on Genesis that might be relevant...

https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9954
https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13017
https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13518
https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14056

Keep in mind that Genesis and Angeal have known each other since they were kids. The relationship they have is a lot different then the one they have with Sephrioth. And yeah, "normal" standards of friendship don't really apply to Sephiroth. I wouldn't doubt that the relationship he had with them was the most normal relationship he ever had before or since. It was probably the first time he'd ever met people who were anywhere near close to the same level he was (and even then he can defeat them 2v1). He wouldn't meet another person like that until he went up against Cloud.

As far as Genesis goes, admiration and jealousy can be very close emotions for some people. It isn't that hard to go from admiring someone's abilities to being jealous that you don't have them.

Well, Sephiroth refused the mission to Banora. He cared about them enough to not even kill them, but ultimately left poor Zack to handle the burden. Again, all blame goes to the Science Department, and also blame the former President for hiring cruel and evil people in the first place like Hojo, Hollender, Scarlet and Heidegger.

Sure the Turks are assassins and ect, but they also help out other people and I don't see any of them evil. Just people following orders and hiding their emotion until the near end of FFVII. Heck, even Rufus isn't that bad of a villian(he's kind of like Lord Beckett, but unlike the latter, he attempted to stop Sephiroth rather than use him and then later attempted to send the Turks to help Cloud to get rid of Kadaj's group).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Harley, I'm replaying CC myself right now and I see what you mean. The friendship between A, G and S is poisoned by Genesis' envy, but I think we can see other hints that their friendship is real: Angeal giving Sephiroth a long lecture about honour, and Sephiroth submitting to it; Sephiroth's (and Angeal's) concern for Genesis' health and Sephiroth's pain at being rejected as a donor; the conversation between Sephiroth and Genesis in Hollander's lab; the fact that Genesis has "beaten" Loveless into Sephiroth's head... They often act more like brothers than like friends, but the bond they have feels real to me (and that's saying something, because I dislike Genesis as a character).

Is Angeal disloyal to Shinra? One wonders why he should be loyal to Shinra in the first place, but he does try constantly to balance his divided loyalties. As Zack points out, Shinra are wrong to issue an extermination order against him because he fought on their side in the 'battle of Midgar'. I always thought the worst thing about Angeal was his determination to make Zack (and nobody but Zack) kill him - aka liberate him from his unbearable existence - although I suppose that could be interpreted as a determination to make Zack see the truth about Shinra.

Sephiroth is an odd one in CC. He does truly seem to care about the few people he actually cares about; he seems to be trying to tell Genesis that he values their friendship more than his own fame. He's quite nice to Zack. But he doesn't seem to get much pleasure out of the one thing he does really, really well: killing. Maybe it's just too easy for him. The only time he seems to be enjoying himself is when he's fighting Zack in Nibelheim, and maybe when he's slicing the Junon Canon to bits.

If he'd actually decided to leave Shinra, what would Shinra have done? He wasn't deteriorating, and he was an unstoppable super-weapon. If he'd said to them, "I'm sick of this, I'm retiring to Costa del Sol to perfect my embroidery," how could they have prevented him? Given his extraordinary powers, it's really odd to see how little will of his own he had. He didn't even exert himself particularly to save his friends; he simply refrained from killing them and sent Zack to do the job instead. Wouldn't it have been more heroic of him to take Zack's seat on that mission to Nibelheim, and give Angeal the death he wanted so that Zack wouldn't have to do it? But I suppose he was raised to be malleable and obedient.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Angeal, Zack and Sephiroth's passivity is one of the things I really can't stand about all three of them. It's also one of the things that makes it really apparent that CC is a Japanese game and not a Western one. So much of all of their identities comes from being a part of SOLDIER and Shin-Ra that none of them want to deal with who they would be apart from it. The idea that they could just abandon all that seems crazy too them.

Genesis is so non-passive that it's a problem. He's doing so much to leave Shin-Ra that he doesn't think out the ramifications of what he's doing and how it's effecting people. But at least he's trying which is more then can be said for everyone else...

If you want to see the Western take on the themes of CC, go look at a synopsis of the Bourne Series of movies. They're all about private company super soldier experiments who figure out what is really going on and try to get out of their situation and the fallout that results in. The Bourne Legacy in particular is pretty much CC if Genesis was actually sympathetic and Hollander wasn't lying about knowing how to cure him.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Angeal, Zack and Sephiroth's passivity is one of the things I really can't stand about all three of them. It's also one of the things that makes it really apparent that CC is a Japanese game and not a Western one. So much of all of their identities comes from being a part of SOLDIER and Shin-Ra that none of them want to deal with who they would be apart from it. The idea that they could just abandon all that seems crazy too them.

Genesis is so non-passive that it's a problem. He's doing so much to leave Shin-Ra that he doesn't think out the ramifications of what he's doing and how it's effecting people. But at least he's trying which is more then can be said for everyone else...

If you want to see the Western take on the themes of CC, go look at a synopsis of the Bourne Series of movies. They're all about private company super soldier experiments who figure out what is really going on and try to get out of their situation and the fallout that results in. The Bourne Legacy in particular is pretty much CC if Genesis was actually sympathetic and Hollander wasn't lying about knowing how to cure him.

Um, you do realise that all of the Final Fantasy VII titles are made in Japan, therefore they are Japanese property, right? In fact, Square Enix started off in Japan and spread out their games and movies and such to other countries in the world so that others could translate them into their own language.

The only game that hasn't made it to outside Japan was Before Crisis, not even remade. The novellas and books are in the same vote, only translated by the Lifestream site here which you guys who are reading this had done an awesome job with(like the OTWTAS and Lateral TURKS).

Plus, Genesis may be melodramatic, and a bit weird, but I still like him.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Tasha, of course we realise they're Japanese games. What the Engineer is saying is that this is one of those places where the culture gap between East and West becomes really apparent. I don't know if people raised in the Japanese culture would find A, G and S's passivity and loyalty admirable, but I think most western people find it hard to understand, and admire them much more when they assert their individuality and needs to try to carve their own path.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Tasha, of course we realise they're Japanese games. What the Engineer is saying is that this is one of those places where the culture gap between East and West becomes really apparent. I don't know if people raised in the Japanese culture would find A, G and S's passivity and loyalty admirable, but I think most western people find it hard to understand, and admire them much more when they assert their individuality and needs to try to carve their own path.

Oh, right. Sorry. Good point.

And my shorter name here is Tash, please, if you don't mind.

 

[Clement Rage]

The three of them have a lot of history we don't get to see. Much of what we get is that scene on the cannon, which is meant to be a friendly spar that got out of hand.

They're soldiers, if they walk away, they're deserting, and Shinra will just have them killed. The Turks can (and do, once) walk away any time they want, because their jobs entail the necessary skills to stay hidden. SOLDIERs can't, they're huge celebrities with distinctive glowing eyes. They can't hide, and running involves cutting ties with everything they care about (see: Zack on the run). They have to stay running for the rest of their lives, which is miserable, or fight against Shinra (including their best friends -also miserable. Also, we see with Zack that Shinra can have them killed if it wants. The first people that will be sent after them to kill them are their own friends and colleagues, fellow SOLDIER. One of the first choices they have to make if they desert is 'how willing am I to kill my best friends to survive.'

Genesis does desert, which gets him nothing. He has to resort to hit and run attacks because even with many fellow defectors on his side, he can't really do damage to Shinra. It's not like they have the power to do whatever they want.

If he'd said to them, "I'm sick of this, I'm retiring to Costa del Sol to perfect my embroidery," how could they have prevented him?

Air strike? 'Oh, sorry, we got the co ordinates wrong again,' Or just being willing to spend enough soldiers to get it done.

It's not just a question of walking away, end of story.

He didn't even exert himself particularly to save his friends; he simply refrained from killing them and sent Zack to do the job instead.

What could he have done? Slaughtered everyone else in SOLDIER? He didn't send Zack at all, he just couldn't bring himself to kill his best friends. If Zack refused, the guy next in line would be sent, and would either kill or be killed. Is it an easy option to pick which of your best friends you want to watch die?

 

[Harley Quinn]

Harley, I'm replaying CC myself right now and I see what you mean. The friendship between A, G and S is poisoned by Genesis' envy, but I think we can see other hints that their friendship is real: Angeal giving Sephiroth a long lecture about honour, and Sephiroth submitting to it; Sephiroth's (and Angeal's) concern for Genesis' health and Sephiroth's pain at being rejected as a donor; the conversation between Sephiroth and Genesis in Hollander's lab; the fact that Genesis has "beaten" Loveless into Sephiroth's head... They often act more like brothers than like friends, but the bond they have feels real to me (and that's saying something, because I dislike Genesis as a character).

Is Angeal disloyal to Shinra? One wonders why he should be loyal to Shinra in the first place, but he does try constantly to balance his divided loyalties. As Zack points out, Shinra are wrong to issue an extermination order against him because he fought on their side in the 'battle of Midgar'. I always thought the worst thing about Angeal was his determination to make Zack (and nobody but Zack) kill him - aka liberate him from his unbearable existence - although I suppose that could be interpreted as a determination to make Zack see the truth about Shinra.

Sephiroth is an odd one in CC. He does truly seem to care about the few people he actually cares about; he seems to be trying to tell Genesis that he values their friendship more than his own fame. He's quite nice to Zack. But he doesn't seem to get much pleasure out of the one thing he does really, really well: killing. Maybe it's just too easy for him. The only time he seems to be enjoying himself is when he's fighting Zack in Nibelheim, and maybe when he's slicing the Junon Canon to bits.

If he'd actually decided to leave Shinra, what would Shinra have done? He wasn't deteriorating, and he was an unstoppable super-weapon. If he'd said to them, "I'm sick of this, I'm retiring to Costa del Sol to perfect my embroidery," how could they have prevented him? Given his extraordinary powers, it's really odd to see how little will of his own he had. He didn't even exert himself particularly to save his friends; he simply refrained from killing them and sent Zack to do the job instead. Wouldn't it have been more heroic of him to take Zack's seat on that mission to Nibelheim, and give Angeal the death he wanted so that Zack wouldn't have to do it? But I suppose he was raised to be malleable and obedient.

Hey everyone! I haven't been on the boards for a couple of days due to a horrible bug (stupid British weather!) I do hope everyone is ok Anyways getting back to the topic.

I really like your summarisation Licorice and makes more sense. And I agree that Sephiroth truly could have left if he had wanted too and I know other people have said that ShinRa would not of allowed it with him being a famous person from the company.
But the thing is I don't agree with that because arguably apart from the president and Rufus, Sephiroth must have been the most famous person in ShinRa so I highly doubt that ShinRa would openly go after Sephiroth. I certainly think they'd keep a an eye on him for sure (especially Hojo) But openly seek him to be destroyed for leaving ShinRa? No, he was too much of an asset for them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And too darn strong to be worth going after unless he was actively opposing them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't even see how they could have killed him. He is canonically capable of bringing down a helicopter from a mile away, slicing dragons in two with a single stroke, and likewise killing a score of enemies in like 10 seconds. He moves so fast you can't even see him. And the thing is, I get where his super strength and super speed and so on comes from, because those are physical qualities - but what about his super ability with materia? Did he train up to be able to do that, or was he born with it?

It's just way easier to leave him alone than to try to take him out.

 

[Roger]

Sephiroth can leave and survive, but it would mean no longer being the big hero that Shinra is spreading the word he is. Given that he decided he was the Chosen One for being part Ancient and when he finds out that's wrong he decided being part Jenova makes him worthy of being God he has a bit of an ego on him. Sephiroth wants to be able to believe he is in the right and whatever Shinra did in the past, Genesis was the one killing civilians, turning his comrades into monsters and terrorising the Planet in the present.

 

[Harley Quinn]

And too darn strong to be worth going after unless he was actively opposing them.

Even if he was actively opposing them what could they have done to stop him?

 

[Harley Quinn]

I don't even see how they could have killed him. He is canonically capable of bringing down a helicopter from a mile away, slicing dragons in two with a single stroke, and likewise killing a score of enemies in like 10 seconds. He moves so fast you can't even see him. And the thing is, I get where his super strength and super speed and so on comes from, because those are physical qualities - but what about his super ability with materia? Did he train up to be able to do that, or was he born with it?

It's just way easier to leave him alone than to try to take him out.

Can Sephiroth use magic without materia? I don't know why I got into my head that he can?

Sephiroth vs ShinRa. Forget his abilities. Imagine all the super fans swarming to rally around him, ShinRa would be over in a day

 

[Harley Quinn]

Sephiroth can leave and survive, but it would mean no longer being the big hero that Shinra is spreading the word he is. Given that he decided he was the Chosen One for being part Ancient and when he finds out that's wrong he decided being part Jenova makes him worthy of being God he has a bit of an ego on him. Sephiroth wants to be able to believe he is in the right and whatever Shinra did in the past, Genesis was the one killing civilians, turning his comrades into monsters and terrorising the Planet in the present.

Before Sephiroth's madness I never took that he liked being the big hero that ShinRa held him up to be. He knew he was a good killing machine, the best but in a situation where he wasn't fighting for a reason. So I think he was pretty lonely. But still the reason why he remained loyal to the company especially after finding out about the experiments on A and G is pretty mind boggling to me.

 

[Roger]

Before Sephiroth's madness I never took that he liked being the big hero that ShinRa held him up to be. He knew he was a good killing machine, the best but in a situation where he wasn't fighting for a reason. So I think he was pretty lonely. But still the reason why he remained loyal to the company especially after finding out about the experiments on A and G is pretty mind boggling to me.

Being aloof about it after the fact doesn't tell us much, we don't see him when he is earning the rep fighting wars for Shinra. And again, Genesis was the one that killed every person in Banora, turned tons of SOLDIERs that willingly defected with him into his mindless clones, led an multiple assaults on Midgar that attacked civilians indiscriminately. Shinra is the one protecting people in Crisis Core. Hollander led the experiments on Genesis, and he's currently on Genesis' side. Why is it hard to believe Sephiroth or Zack would stick with Shinra in this crisis instead of walking and thus letting Genesis burn cities to the ground for his revenge?