Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Tetsujin]

I'm pretty sure Sephiroth is not clinically insane.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, so I don't think you can just attribute his evil to him being related to Jenova, or him being made crazy at finding out his life was a lie.

It's all of that together, with Sephiroth's own choice that finally makes him the villain he is now. And I think that's a good thing. It's not a shallow explanation or rationale for evil. Hell, villains have become bad for much less. I don't think his descent into villainy is really shallow or bad at all.

 

[Cthulhu]

Rewatching ACC time and time again doesn't really make me believe Seph is really 'alive' or 'sane', really. All he talks about is pwning Cloud fgj, and other sado-masochistic, homoerotic statements.

The Remnants, which can be considered Seph clones (and no, I won't go into details on those), also seem to have little to no mind of their own - they were 'created', pretty much, to retrieve Jenova's head, and that's all they know or talk or care about. You could say that's insanity, but for them, I'd rather say that's the limit of their mental abilities, pretty much.

I've read (probably in this thread) that all that keeps Seph 'together' or his consciousness in one piece is his hatred for Cloud. I'm kinda inclined to believe that that's all that's left of his personality, really, unless a sequel is made where he z0mg returns again, but with more narrative.

On Seph / Jehova, I'm inclined to believe that the Jenova cells are giving him a 'killer instinct'. I don't know if Jenova itself ever had any intelligence to begin with (although I'm inclined to believe so), but it does seem that all there's left of it is a base instinct - to be a cunt. Jen's cells seem to be separate entities in themselves, that give the person that 'has' them excessive strength and regenerative powers, but also an instinct, of sorts. For the Seph clones and, to some degree, the people with Geostigma (or I'm wrong, in which case, ignore plox), this 'instinct' involved the Reunion - becoming one whole entity again, or regenerating into Jen's full form again.

For Seph, whom I believe has had a lot more Jen cells, this instinct is a bit more advanced, and overcomes the most base instinct of regeneration, and instead goes to the secondary instinct - death and destruction. You could say it's about converting Lifestream to Negative Lifestream, I guess, but I don't know the specifics of that particular subject.

Seph may have a superior will over Jenova and, as such, be able to repress Jen's main personality (if anything remains), but then, Jenova hasn't been 'whole' for quite some time, I think. I dunno if the final form of Seph in FFVII represented Jenova's full reunion, but I'm inclined to disbelieve that - considering there's cells in Cloud (iirc) and probably some other people as well left (any other Soldiers? Did those DG people have Jen cells? Dunno about that).

With that in mind, I wouldn't consider it to be impossible for Jenova to become a single, independent and independently thinking entity. I mean, Jenova in parts (i.e. loose cells) have already demonstrated they possess an awesome power - imagine what it would be if Jenova was restored in its full form again?

 

[Ⓐaron]

Yeah, Kefka was messed up but its the direct actions of Magitek Infusion that causes him to become the deranged, sadistic and vulgar character he is in FFVI. He was abused, withdrawn, and sad before, but then he went utterly mad when the Magitek infusion buggered up.

Would he have turned into a sadistic madman if his past hadn't included constant punishment though? It's questionable. Granted, the game itself never gives us much of his backstory, which could be construed as a flaw (though the game also didn't really make any attempt at humanising Kefka so it doesn't seem particularly objectionable to me).

And yeah, Golbez had darkness in his heart, but it was never enough to make him try to erase humanity so that lunarians could colonize it. His darkness merely opened the door for Zemus to control him. Zemus is the real brains behind Golbez's body.

True enough. And Sephiroth didn't have enough darkness in his heart to want to kill everyone on the planet without a fucking space alien being falsely presented to him as his mother for all his life and then fucking with his brain when he was at his most vulnerable. It's still a similar story.

And that's the dynamic thing about Sephiroth. It isn't just one thing. It's the totality of it all, and Sephiroth making the choice. Sephiroth CHOSE to embrace his darkness and turn his back on everything. It's why the walking through the flames is such a symbolic statement of Sephiroth. When he sees Zack, he just smirks coldly and as if embracing hell, he walks through it to continue the madness.

Sephiroth's attachment to Jenova and her ideology pushes him, but when he clearly quotes feeling "different" and summarily calls everyone a "traitor" and turns his sword to his friend, clearly that's not just madness. Sephiroth has drawn a line between "me" and "them" and chosen to turn against everyone. It's not just him snapping, its him alienating himself further.

It's a mixture of the two, but clearly there's more psychology and choice behind it. The pain and shock of finding out your life is a lie is the trauma that really drives Sephiroth over.

I'll grant that Sephiroth's descent into madness is presented in a more nuanced fashion than the transition that's presented in the previous games, at least in some respects (as Masamune points out, the whole Genesis subplot is pretty heavy-handed), but it's still the same theme - troubled, mentally predisposed individual subjected to outside forces that turn him into a monster. Square's still treading the same ground. He might have made a conscious choice to reject humanity, but would he have done it had he not been subjected to Jenova's manipulations? The Ultimania really gives no reason to suspect he would have possessed such a strong killing influence without Jenova. That's Jenova's instinct, to kill.

Granted, Square then retreaded the "My existence is a lie so I must kill everyone" territory with Kuja in FFIX and I loved it, so it's probably mostly the presentation of Sephiroth that irks me. Probably because in FFIX it wasn't couched in terms of psychic alien shit and was more clearly presented as a conscious choice.

As to whether Sephiroth is clinically insane, I think you'd pretty much have to be to want to kill everyone on the planet. Though, as Cthulhu points out, it's highly questionable as to whether what he possesses post-Nibelheim can even be evaluated in terms of conventional human psychology, since he's certainly not human.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

So do you think Sephiroth is just insane?

It's hard to say. He could have achieved his goals if it wasn't for his obsession with Cloud.

 

[BWAngel]

I've always wanted to ask this. I remember reading somewhere that Kuja and a few other FF villains were eventually forgiven for their actions in the end, and even though it isn't the end for FF7 yet, do you think Sephiroth might be forgiven considering what we know now?

 

[Dashell]

On Seph / Jehova

Oh shit... Sephiroth is the Christian God suddenly

I always kinda thought of Sephiroth and Jenova as one and the same.. at least in their heads. Sephiroth basically inherited her will to kill everything and he's able to use the Jenova cells to his advantage because he basically IS Jenova. (and before you quote 50 billion books about how that's not true, it's the only thing that made me make sense of this whole mess)

And it's weird to say Sephiroth was able to stay alive in consciousness because of his hatred for Cloud. I always saw him as kind of indifferent to Cloud until the end of FFVII. I think Cloud hates Seph a lot more ... Seph really needs to get over it and go after Cloud's friends if he's ever gonna win.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I've always wanted to ask this. I remember reading somewhere that Kuja and a few other FF villains were eventually forgiven for their actions in the end, and even though it isn't the end for FF7 yet, do you think Sephiroth might be forgiven considering what we know now?

I recall an interview by the creators stating that Sephiroth will never seek nor deserve forgiveness. The player is not supposed to sympathize with him at all.

 

[Dashell]

The player is not supposed to sympathize with him at all.

HAHHA... oh... that's great. And I guess it's nice to know Sephiroth won't pull a Shadow but on the other hand, how do you kill Sephiroth? Apparently he can keep coming back as long as his will is kept alive.

 

[BWAngel]

HAHHA... oh... that's great. And I guess it's nice to know Sephiroth won't pull a Shadow but on the other hand, how do you kill Sephiroth? Apparently he can keep coming back as long as his will is kept alive.

Unless the Planet finally decides to rape him of his will.

 

[Max Payne]

I recall an interview by the creators stating that Sephiroth will never seek nor deserve forgiveness. The player is not supposed to sympathize with him at all.

Yeah, I remember them talking about how they didn't understand why so many people loved him and took to him the way they did.

 

[Dashell]

He's hot?


and Cloud blows?

 

[Makoeyes987]

True enough. And Sephiroth didn't have enough darkness in his heart to want to kill everyone on the planet without a fucking space alien being falsely presented to him as his mother for all his life and then fucking with his brain when he was at his most vulnerable. It's still a similar story.

At that time in the story, Sephiroth *does* harbor that much hate and hostility towards everyone, as he found out the truth that he wasn't human. Again, it wasn't JUST Jenova. He made a choice to act out. Jenova didn't MAKE him do anything. Because another person of the Jenova Project who found out the same thing didn't do anything like Sephiroth at all. So it's still illustrated that Sephiroth made the choice. He chose to murder.

I'll grant that Sephiroth's descent into madness is presented in a more nuanced fashion than the transition that's presented in the previous games, at least in some respects (as Masamune points out, the whole Genesis subplot is pretty heavy-handed), but it's still the same theme - troubled, mentally predisposed individual subjected to outside forces that turn him into a monster. Square's still treading the same ground. He might have made a conscious choice to reject humanity, but would he have done it had he not been subjected to Jenova's manipulations? The Ultimania really gives no reason to suspect he would have possessed such a strong killing influence without Jenova. That's Jenova's instinct, to kill.

He actually probably would have. The game and 10th Anniversary Ultimania pretty much state that Sephiroth turns his back on humanity and the planet because of his hate for them. They personalize his responsibility pretty clearly. Again, Jenova plays a part but it's hardly the sole cause. His psyche was vulnerable but in the end, he made a choice too.

 

[Munatik]

I've been reading this thread with great interest for a while, but now I'm feeling arsed enough to chime in here with a response to Mako's original prompt.

Do you think it was his true nature, this violent, cruel streak? Or do you think it was something that was created when he lost his mind? And do you think he'd still be the good, heroic person he was known for, had he never discovered the truth behind his birth?

Let's start off with some facts. We know Jenova is an extraterrestrial being who arrived on a meteorlike object, one that crashed into the Planet sometime during FFVII's ancient history.

We know that she is a malevolent being whose sole existence and drive is based upon murder and and destruction.

We know that despite being discovered as virtually inert, and then divided by the Jenova Project and Sephiroth's severing of her head, her abilities and influence are no less potent even after being separated. This is evidenced largely by the Reunion Sephiroth commandeered.

We know that Sephiroth is part of a flawed Shinra experiment, and that the procedure involved the direct transplant of Jenova cells into him while he was developing as a fetus.

Fast forward, and we learn that he dies at the Nibelheim reactor, and was already dead and a part of the Lifestream by the time the Reunion begins to take place. We also learn that despite being physically dead, his consciousness is still very much alive in the Lifestream. As a part of a megalomaniacal scheme, he wants to deliver a disastrous injury to the Planet, a wound so great that the Planet will use all the power it has from the Lifestream to heal itself. Sephiroth wants to use this vulnerability as an opportunity to seize control of the Lifestream itself, and thus control the Planet.

Okay, so enough review. Knowing all of this, now consider this line from Sephiroth in AC:

What I want, Cloud, is to sail the cosmos with this planet as my vessel. Just as Mother did long ago. then one day we'll find a new planet and on it's soil we'll create a shining future.

This is curious, because this means that Sephiroth did not want to control the Lifestream just so he could achieve unquestionable power and become a god, but instead wanted to control the Planet like some kind of spaceship, presumably so he could crash it into another planet and thus perpetuate a cycle of destruction. These events would unfold the exact same way as when Jenova--also having journeyed on a piece of rock--collided with the Planet.

To me, this goal of using this Planet to start the same damn story on another planet is very suspicious. Why on earth (so to speak) does Sephiroth even want to do something like that? If he is supposedly strong enough to assert his will over Jenova's parts, why is it that he is going to do exactly what she did, and even going so far as to copy her MO?

Because he went crazy. Right, but I find it hard to believe that Sephiroth's motive and means developed to be the same as Jenova's by just a coincidence. Instead, it says to me that Sephiroth's will may actually not be his own. We see Sephiroth change during the Nibelheim incident, but there is no evidence to suggest that Jenova herself ever did, even after her cells were taken and injected into him as a fetus.

Sephiroth was born as a hybrid, however, and so he was still partly human initially. I think his true, genuine nature and Jenova's was balanced for that first part of his life as a Shinra employee, and thus Sephiroth was able to benefit socially from his human traits while his career was able to benefit from Jenova's. Then that human personality, that will, was extinguished when Jenova took advantage of Sephiroth's mental breakdown in Nibelheim. Remember that Jenova did the same thing to Cloud when he was mentally weakened. Sephiroth was different of course because of the different kind of exposure to Jenova he received, but also I think her will and cunning responded to his unmatched strength and magical abilities, and so--like conquering an injured Planet--seized a "vessel" with which to act out her destructive nature. That is, Sephiroth became a new Jenova. Incidentally, I don't think Sephiroth's control over Jenova's body had anything to do with his will or her will being stronger, but rather that his will and her will had become one and the same.

And in that sense the Jenova Project--though originally intended to create an Ancient--was a complete success.

To conclude, I don't think it was in Sephiroth's nature to be a bad guy, and could have gone through life as a relatively swell guy in fact if he avoided having such an epic meltdown. And if not for his hybrid status, he might have actually recovered from the shock. Instead, he was not much more than a ticking time bomb.

Speaking of bombs, sorry about dropping a scroll bomb here. But I wanted to spill it and see if this train of thought even makes sense.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Again, Sephiroth is not being controlled or manipulated. His goals of conquering the planet haven't changed. However, he has gained the ambition of conquering other planets and continuing his absorption of other planets.

Again, Jenova was never a planet eater. She was a killer. Period. She never tried to do what Sephiroth did. Sephiroth using the planet as a vessel to travel space bears a similarity to Jenova but Jenova didn't try to ram Meteor into the Planet and absorb the Lifestream. She just killed people.

Again, you have to understand there's a difference. You could say that Sephiroth has taken Jenova's destructive instincts to a new level, but they are not the same. He's doing something a lot more ambitious. He isn't trying to just destroy. He wants to create and rule as the center of life.

Jenova is nothing more than a cunning killer. Saying that he's doing what she's doing is fallacious. She never got beyond the killing/destruction part.

 

[Munatik]

Again, you have to understand there's a difference. You could say that Sephiroth has taken Jenova's destructive instincts to a new level, but they are not the same. He's doing something a lot more ambitious. He isn't trying to just destroy. He wants to create and rule as the center of life.

But in order to accomplish this, he needs to kill. And not just kill, but to exterminate all life and ruin the Planet. He attempts to do so with Meteor. If he succeeded, then he would want to use the Planet as a vessel to find another Planet. When he does find it, how do you suppose he would try and assimilate that planet?

Seems like Sephiroth is doing what Jenova wants, which would speak to Jenova being "nothing more than a cunning killer."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth's killing is a means to an end, not the end itself. You have to kill someone in order to get the spirit energy to return to the planet and thus absorb it.

He's not killing for destruction's sake. It's the means to an end. It's like how Chaos has to kill all life on the planet in order for it to be saved and taken into Omega.

***Jenova*** (Pages 210-213) (005.1)
An intelligent lifeform from somewhere in space. Approximately 2000 years ago,
it crashlanded at the North Pole ["Knowlespole" in the English localization of
the game] (the vicinity of Icicle Lodge's ["Icicle Inn" in the English
localization] present location), negatively affecting the Planet; it came to
be feared as "the Calamity from the Skies" by the Ancients, who still existed
in great numbers at that time.

Vicious, extremely aggressive and cunning. Having no thoughts of creating
anything following bringing destruction, it only follows its instincts to
incite ruin, utilizing its mimic ability (-->P.211) to infect other living
organisms with its virus. In addition, due to its abnormal resilience, even if
dismembered, its cells will call out to one another, seeking to reunite into
their original form (-->Reunion/P.211).

Do you see that, important distinction? Jenova is a killer. Period. There's nothing else to it. That's not like Sephiroth at all. Sephiroth isn't killing for the sake of killing, and just "doin it for the lulz." Sephiroth has a plan and a purpose beyond instinct. His plan involves him ascending into something greater. A god. The killing's just the consequence.

 

[IndianaoftheJones]

You know honestly, a lot of what Sephiroth did made sense until I learned Jenova wasn't in control.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay....then I ask you when did FFVII ever say Jenova did what Sephiroth said, or Sephiroth illustrate or say he was under the control of Jenova at all?

Hojo would like to have a word with you, sir.

 

[Masamune]

If we want to look a well-written misanthropic villain, then take Magneto. He lost his family to the Nazis and was sent to shovel corpses and rot at Auschwitz. Such horror was bound to have a lasting effect on him, and blacken his perception of mankind. When he discovers mutantkind, he wants to save them from the same persecution and take his revenge on Man. Except the irony is that he's following in his persecutors' footsteps.

Sephiroth doesn't have the same credible backstory and motivation. He freaks out because he's an experiment, then decides he's a Cetra hero, then after that something entirely different altogether. I could understand if his goal was to destroy Shinra, because of payback for their lies and deceit. But you said yourself, CC showed Sephiroth had a human side to himself. He wasn't emotionally scarred and waiting for a reason to trump humanity.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dude... you didn't just try to compare FFVII to Marvel. Of course Magneto is going to have a helluva better written backstory compared to this. That's not even a fair comparison at all.

And I don't think you could say CC Sephiroth didn't have emotional baggage or scarring. Clearly there was something churning in his head due to all the events and betrayals he felt during his time at Shinra. He clearly projected his hatred of Shinra, towards the entire Planet as well.

 

[Masamune]

Dude... you didn't just try to compare FFVII to Marvel. Of course Magneto is going to have a helluva better written backstory compared to this. That's not even a fair comparison at all.

The perfect way to exemplify a poor character is to compare it to a great one.

And I don't think you could say CC Sephiroth didn't have emotional baggage or scarring. Clearly there was something churning in his head due to all the events and betrayals he felt during his time at Shinra. He clearly projected his hatred of Shinra, towards the entire Planet as well.

Sephiroth's hatred for mankind is a non sequitur. He did not suffer at the hands of Shinra. His life was actually quite privileged. Shinra wouldn't be stupid enough to keep their beast chained up, as proven when Sephiroth decides what missions he does or doesn't want. To find out they lied and deceived him would certainly insight anger and resentment - but towards Shinra, not mankind. It's weak to say Sephiroth learned the truth in the Lifestream and decided he should destroy everyone and play god.

And if they wanted to establish Sephiroth's ego and entitlement, they should have foreshadowed that. He was cold and intimidating, but he wasn't looking for power or displaying any signs of misanthropy before Nibelheim.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dude, Marvel has had many more years and writers to craft their characters. Magneto isn't an antagonist featured as the main antagonist in one RPG game that lasts for a few hours. Magneto's been around for years. Hell, his villainy isn't even the same calibre. He's certainly more morally ambiguous and relatable. His antagonism with the X-Men and the world at large is waaaaaay more relatable and real than Sephiroth. Because he's based on reality and social commentary of the time. Magneto is a victim of the worst sides of humanity and civilization. Prejudice, hate, war, etc. Sephiroth is a fantasy experiment victim how has no moral ambiguity or relatability. It's like comparing heaven and earth. You should at least compare something on Sephiroth's level than something else.

Uh, you don't think being used and manipulated is suffering? Finding out your life, purpose and past is just a cover up? Yeah he was privileged but it was a hollow existence. You can't seriously be telling me that Sephiroth should've been happy and a-okay finding out his life, past, and humanity was a farce, and he was nothing more than a test tube baby. Combine that with his already disattachment to the population at large and clearly...he ain't well adjusted or normal at all.

Uh, this is Final Fantasy dude. Where clowns turn evil due to magic infusion, clouds of darkness decide obliterate the world, and giant trees come to life to threaten existence with void. You're clearly taking the scope of this narrative out of context.

 

[Munatik]

Do you see that, important distinction? Jenova is a killer. Period. There's nothing else to it. That's not like Sephiroth at all. Sephiroth isn't killing for the sake of killing, and just "doin it for the lulz." Sephiroth has a plan and a purpose beyond instinct. His plan involves him ascending into something greater. A god. The killing's just the consequence.

All right, I'll grant that distinction , though there doesn't appear to be much of a difference as far as Jenova's character is concerned. Say we were inhabitants of another planet besides FFVII's. If Sephiroth arrived on our planet and began killing and destroying indiscriminately, how might we describe him? Sephiroth may have a different dream, but his methods would still accomplish hers marvelously.

I find it unfortunate that we're still not given much insight into Jenova's origins, and instead have to think of her like the alien in Alien. It's really too bad, because if Sephiroth's humanity was a direct casualty of Jenova, then I would find him to be a much more tragic and pitiable character.

 

[Makoeyes987]

While the people who died wouldn't really see much of a distinction that's only a matter of perspective. The fact still remains that Sephiroth isn't going on a glorified killing spree. He's killing for a reason and a purpose. A selfish one, but a purpose.

Who says the creators wanted you to see Sephiroth as tragic and pitiable? Nomura has even said that he doesn't understand why people try to pity Sephiroth or feel sorry for him, when he's gone and acquired such power and heightened existence. People seem to think we're supposed to feel bad for him or something.

While his fall of a hero should be tragic, it's pretty obvious that the only victims are Sephiroth's victims, not the perpetrator of said crimes. He's first and foremost a symbol of evil.