Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[ForceStealer]

I think some of you guys are thinking too much into it, no offense. At the point on the ship, Cloud was just some insignificant flea to him. It probably took him an 'oh yeah, that guy' to remember who Cloud was. Saying someone's name once in passing doesn't ensure you're going to remember the guy.

Or, nobody likes to hear this, it could be just poor writing.

It wasn't poor writing, its exactly what you said, Sephiroth had no real reason to immediately recognize him.

And Mako, what were you on when you made this thread? What the hell does "What the fucked happened" mean anyway

 

[Max Payne]

What the hell does "What the fucked happened" mean anyway

I was wondering when someone was going to acknowledge this.

 

[Masamune]

Tets is right. Sephiroth was placing the seed of doubt in Cloud's mind, and alluding to the fact that everything wasn't how it seemed between the pair of them.

 

[ForceStealer]

It DID do all that, but it could have just been a side efect. Did Sephiroth REALLY have any reason to? Yes, he beat him before, but (because of that) Sephiroth was about to become stronger than he ever was before. Cloud wasn't a threat at that point, why would Sephiroth have any reason to confuse him? Did he even know Cloud was a mixed up Sephiroth clone yet?

I was wondering when someone was going to acknowledge this.

Its been bugging me for awhile

 

[Masamune]

What about that incident with Zack in the Nibelheim reactor, where he is staggering around and clutching his head? Is that because he finally realizes that he is a monster, and it pains him, or is something deeper going on (ie: Jenova cells)?

Forgot to reply to this.

It's Jenova.

Why do you think Cloud was the successful Sephiroth COPY? Hojo wanted to prove if someone lost their senses (e.g. Sephiroth) they could be controlled by Jenova's instincts. The anger and despair of finding out he was an experiment, was enough to push Sephiroth over the edge and bring Jenova's tendencies to the fore.

It DID do all that, but it could have just been a side efect. Did Sephiroth REALLY have any reason to? Yes, he beat him before, but (because of that) Sephiroth was about to become stronger than he ever was before. Cloud wasn't a threat at that point, why would Sephiroth have any reason to confuse him? Did he even know Cloud was a mixed up Sephiroth clone yet?

It wasn't about Cloud being a threat, it was about Sephiroth making a start to his revenge. I think it was a score Sephiroth had to settle before he made his exaltation to godhood.

 

[Cthulhu]

Now I'm wondering whether to rename the thread because it contains an obvious spelling error, or to keep it like this for nostalgic purposes .

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Also—

I also remember Vincent telling Lucrecia that Sephiroth was dead. Now, come from that angle, is it possible that the Sephiroth everyone knew before he went insane is dead?

Vincent was purposely lying to Lucrecia; he wasn't giving her a spin that he thought was more correct. Don't take what he says to her there at face value.

If you remember/notice, when Lucrecia asks Vincent if Sephiroth is still alive, Cloud gestures as if he's about to start talking and explain the whole thing to her, then Vincent looks at Cloud and raises his hand toward him and Cloud stays silent. Then Vincent tells Lucrecia that Sephiroth is dead.

Whatever Cloud was going to say to Lucrecia, Vincent did not want him to. He only wanted her to know what he told her, which was that Sephiroth was dead. And given that Vincent has far more of an emotional attachment to Lucrecia than Cloud does, Cloud was likely going to tell her the truth. He had no ulterior reasons to tell her otherwise. Vincent did not want her to know the truth because it would have hurt her for the very reasons already touched upon earlier in this thread:

Once [Sephiroth] found out the truth, the UGLY truth at that, all that anger just came pouring out. It was inside of him all along. It was just how he reacted to it. Nobody was really there to tell him that it was all good.

I think the vicious streak was inside of him all along, but I also think had he had the right guidance growing up, he might've dealt with it differently.

Had Lucrecia known what truly happened to her son, especially given that the presence of a mother in his life could have changed his outcome significantly, it would have crushed her. Vincent knew that and wanted to spare her from that pain.

...But given his hard on and grudge against Cloud...

lolhardonforCloudlolol

 

[Tetsujin]

Vincent was purposely lying to Lucrecia; he wasn't giving her a spin that he thought was more correct. Don't take what he says to her there at face value.

If you remember/notice, when Lucrecia asks Vincent if Sephiroth is still alive, Cloud gestures as if he's about to start talking and explain the whole thing to her, then Vincent looks at Cloud and raises his hand toward him and Cloud stays silent. Then Vincent tells Lucrecia that Sephiroth is dead.

I always took it as Vincent not wanting to make things worse for her.
I mean, saying "oh, that cute little baby you love so much and that you could never hold in your arms? Yeah, he went homicidal and is now threatening the entire planet with a giant Meteor from outer space and we're so gonna kill his sorry ass."
...that wouldn't have been tactful.

 

[ForceStealer]

Now I'm wondering whether to rename the thread because it contains an obvious spelling error, or to keep it like this for nostalgic purposes .

Screw nostalgia, however, it should be kept for the purpose of ridiculing Mako, fgj.













The moron.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Fuck you, Forcefag

 

[ForceStealer]

Aw, Makopussy changed it...

 

[Tetsujin]

No, I changed it actually.

I have this obsessive-compulsive disorder that doesn't allow me to keep spelling errors in thread titles.
I MUST CORRECT THEM ALL.

 

[Cloudtail4ever]

I don't recall Sephiroth ever calling Cloud by name; he only talked directly to him a few times.
And in the reactor, when Cloud stabbed him with Zack's sword, didn't Sephiroth ask "Who are you?" to Cloud? I think he does, but I'll have to go back and watch the scenes again on my laptop.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I don't think he asks "who are you?", I think he asks "what are you?"

He does call Cloud by his first name after the temple of ancients shrinks. If I'm not mistaken he says something like "There Cloud, good boy"...

 

[Dashell]

Okay I'm not reading 11 pages, if this has been answered please direct me to it.

What I'd like to know is why Sephiroth still feels he has to do Jenova's will if he knows (or probably learned) that she's not really his mother. I mean what's really motivating him? uhm.. I had another question but forgot.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

What I'd like to know is why Sephiroth still feels he has to do Jenova's will if he knows (or probably learned) that she's not really his mother. I mean what's really motivating him? uhm.. I had another question but forgot.

I always wondered about that. Why doesn't someone go to him and tell him: "You know what, dude? The alien is not your mother!"... Cloud has had plenty of opportunities...

Finding out Jenova is not his mother, he would also know that he's not an ancient but one of the "traitors". I guess he would have no reason to go on...

 

[Dark and Divine]

Sephiroth is fully aware that Jenova is not a Cetra and that she/it is not his biological mother.

He gained this information while aborbing the knowledge in the Lifestream.

As for Sephiroth wanting to fulfill Jenova's will, i don't think that's the case.

Apart from the fact that Sephiroth dominated Jenova's will and turned her/it in to his puppet, his plan in FFVII had nothing to do with what was seemingly Jenova's goals. He was fulfilling his own plans and pursuing his own objectives.

Sephiroth's goal in AC/ACC was more akin to what Jenova did centuries ago, but it seems that he decided to do such thing in his own will.

Why didn't he stop his plans after realizing that Jenova was not a Cetra and such?

Well, maybe because he didn't care anymore. Through Genesis' betrayal, Shinra's corruption, and with the secrets behind his own birth being the last drop, Sephiroth saw how rotten mankind had become and decided to
become a god and create his own paradise, regardless of what Jenova was.

Another point of interesting is that, through FFVII, Sephiroth's devotion to Jenova decreased a lot. In several scenes, Sephiroth referes to Jenova as "Jenova", not mother or anything like that.

Even in AC, in the japanese dub, while Kadaj and the others refer to Jenova as "kasa", wich means "mother" in a warm and dependable way, being more or less the equivalent to "mommy", when Sephiroth describes his plan, Sephiroth referes to Jenova as "haha", wich also means "mother", but in a more impersonal and objective way.

In my prespective, while Sephiroth still referes to Jenova as "mother", he sees her/it as nothing more than a tool, with his devotion to her/it completely gone.

 

[BWAngel]

Sephiroth is fully aware that Jenova is not a Cetra and that she/it is not his biological mother.

He gained this information while aborbing the knowledge in the Lifestream.

As for Sephiroth wanting to fulfill Jenova's will, i don't think that's the case.

Apart from the fact that Sephiroth dominated Jenova's will and turned her/it in to his puppet, his plan in FFVII had nothing to do with what was seemingly Jenova's goals. He was fulfilling his own plans and pursuing his own objectives.

Sephiroth's goal in AC/ACC was more akin to what Jenova did centuries ago, but it seems that he decided to do such thing in his own will.

Why didn't he stop his plans after realizing that Jenova was not a Cetra and such?

Well, maybe because he didn't care anymore. Through Genesis' betrayal, Shinra's corruption, and with the secrets behind his own birth being the last drop, Sephiroth saw how rotten mankind had become and decided to
become a god and create his own paradise, regardless of what Jenova was.

Another point of interesting is that, through FFVII, Sephiroth's devotion to Jenova decreased a lot. In several scenes, Sephiroth referes to Jenova as "Jenova", not mother or anything like that.

Even in AC, in the japanese dub, while Kadaj and the others refer to Jenova as "kasa", wich means "mother" in a warm and dependable way, being more or less the equivalent to "mommy", when Sephiroth describes his plan, Sephiroth referes to Jenova as "haha", wich also means "mother", but in a more impersonal and objective way.

In my prespective, while Sephiroth still referes to Jenova as "mother", he sees her/it as nothing more than a tool, with his devotion to her/it completely gone.

But is still makes no sense why he would still refer to it as Mother, when he knows it isn't.

Okay, I believe Sephiroth's will was all powerful and able to take control of Jenova, but something just doesn't sit with me about this issue.

Something must have happened between the cells in Sephiroth and the cells in the main body.

 

[Tetsujin]

He still sees Jenova as his "mother" since he inherited a lot of traits and abilities from her. And shit like that.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I believe he thinks of Jenova as his mother because he sees himself as produced, instead of born, with the help of Jenova's cells.

 

[BWAngel]

I believe he thinks of Jenova as his mother because he sees himself as produced, instead of born, with the help of Jenova's cells.

That's another thing that bugs me (and a lot does, I know). If he learned that Jenova wasn't really his mother, did he learn about Lucrecia and the Jenova cells inside of her, and if he did, why didn't he free her from the crystal and drag her along for the Reunion?

I can see why he wants to destroy the planet, find another planet, and make Paradise (almost sounds like Wolf's Rain). But there are some things he said in AC and ACC that made me wonder what he meant. For instance, when he said that someday we'll find a new planet and on its soil we'll create a shining future (or something along those lines). What is with this 'we' shit? If he knew Jenova was the Calamity, and her will was completely lost when he took over, wouldn't it be more like I will create a shining future?

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I don't think he knows. The info he got from the library in Nibleheim was put there by Hojo.

I think Jenova is the one in control and not Sephiroth, it's through her (legacy) that he comes back and tries to destroy the planet once again.

 

[Tetsujin]

I don't think he knows.

He does, actually.

I think Jenova is the one in control and not Sephiroth

The creators disagree there.
It's outrightly stated that Sephiroth controls her.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth is definitely in control and it's been confirmed several times.

Hell, Lifestream Black essentially shows Sephiroth in control anyways and very much aware of his existence.

 

[Masamune]

Sephiroth is one of the weakest and poorly written villains in the fandom. His character development is non-existent. He begins as a mysterious figure from the past, who discovers he is the last of the Semites, but his plans of the Land of Milk and Honey are thwarted by Cloud. Five years later, Sephiroth returns from the dead, but without his Zionist agenda. Now he wants to destroy everything and become a God. Why? ...Don't ask me, because Square never bothered to explain or examine his rationale.

It's also ironic that after his confused preaching in Nibelheim, he is indifferent to Jenova's true identity later on. This could have been justified had Jenova been in control, but Square admit it is quite the contrary - Jenova is merely a tool for Sephiroth's designs. We weren't provided with a clear reason for his god complex, and I'm sure plenty of fans will throw their theories forward, but you shouldn't have to theorize a villain's motivation. It should be anchored into the story with succinct indication.