Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Well I could then argue that in my game, Terra's magical growth was all natural because she never equipped a single piece of magicite ever.
So is Sephiroth the strongest dude in FF7 or what
- Thread starter Cat Rage Room
- Start date
Well I could then argue that in my game, Terra's magical growth was all natural because she never equipped a single piece of magicite ever.
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
Through the power of Light and Darkness.
Well, Garland's is meant to be how he looked before he turned Evil, so like Shantotto maybe it's just a costume change. In FF1, you needed Bahamut's blessing to Class-change, WoL does it at will.
Fair enough.
...You're a smartass.
Duh. I get the red/yellow aura and how it symbolizes Nethicite, but why is the Helmet a part of it? They couldn't have had Gabranth wear it all the time? That's Gabranth kids - he needs magical power to be able to put on his freaking helmet. No wonder he kept losing in FF12, the pansy.
Exactly. He also has a hard on for her. Which is more than understandable.
True, remember what Kefka says in EX Mode: "I'm filling her up!"
There, that line will be stuck in your head for the rest of the day. You're welcome!
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Maybe Cosmos did it for him. You know Cosmos hooks up her favorite boy-toy with all the best stuff. XD
Cause they had to give him a different form for when he went into Ex Mode! If he started off battle with his helmet on, what the hell would be the noticeable change for when he went Ex? A burning aura isn't enough. They wanted a visible change. And it was a great reason to actually show what the guy looked like underneath that sweaty armor. Noah has fangirls of his own, you know!
You're so mean, dude. LOL
LMAO, actually he says, "IT'S FILLING ME UP!" but the same perverted connotations remain.
Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
My Terra would kick your Terra's ass.
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
All Cecil gets is an aura and different colored weapons. I agree with the fact it needs a visual change, but the Helmet didn't need to be a part of it. Normal mode Gabranth could have been helmeted Gabranth with the connected blade, and EX Mode could have been the aura and the two blades wielded separately.
Another good way to tell when Gabranth is in EX Mode is to check if he's raping your asshole with his entirely different moveset! Seriously, in EX Mode Gabranth is faster, stronger and has entirely different moves. I should think *that* is indication enough of which mode he's in.
I know what I said.LMAO, actually he says, "IT'S FILLING ME UP!" but the same perverted connotations remain.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
You're mean.
DrakeClawfang said:
The same goes for Cloud, Squall, Tidus, etc.
Again. They need to show Gabranth's face. I'm telling you. And Gabranth already fights that way in ExMode. When Gabranth is not in Ex, he just fights with the connected Chaos Blade and Highwaister. When he goes ExMode, he fights you with them separated.
Oh shit..I get it now..
....
Oh you sicko.. Now I'll never look at Kefka saying "Time to come home..to papa" to Terra, the same way again.
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
I know, that's my point. No aura, connected blades - aura, un-connected blades. His weapon changes, his pose changes and he gains an aura. For me at least, the addition of a helmet doesn't drive the point any further home.
Then my work is done.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Well I prefer to see his face, to be honest. We rarely saw it in FFXII, after all. Seeing him mostly face to face in Dissidia is a nice trade off.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
The Ultimania comments seem more concerned with explaining them as how they're references to the past games, as with the tutorial quotes that definitely aren't related to the story.Terra, Cecil, Bartz, and the other characters who've had their Ex Modes featured in the Ultimania would like to have a word with you
Their Ex forms are very much part of their character and abilities. Wouldn't make sense to make completely contradictory and non-related Ex forms and then present certain ones as part of the plot.
Besides, why would Squall bother with the Revolver at all if he has Lionheart? Same with Cloud and the Buster Sword? Advent Children showed us that AVALANCHE used their starting weapons even in the final battle. The others probably didn't exist in the story -- including the Ultima Weapon.
As for Kefka, if he had the Triad power in Dissidia, Exdeath really should have bitch-slapped him when Kefka made the argument that they shouldn't give up on Terra because of how useful she is.
Kefka should have been entirely capable of defeating any one of the other heroes by himself. I can't see how the argument that they needed her could have held even a little water.
P.S. Figured out how to do paragraph breaks on the phone!
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Bartz's explanation is:
So, it's not just in reference to the past games. In FFV, Bartz never had access to Cloud's Buster Sword, Squall's Revolver, or Zidane's daggers. He's seen in the story as being able to mimic and summon the weapons of every hero of cosmos he so chooses. It's integrated into his Ex Mode attack, and is explained in-universe as him being a master mime. It's not just a reference to the past, it explains them here in the present.
And since these are the same characters from their respective games/stories, those explanations which references said plotlines, would be applicable.
And again, it'd be inconsistent for one set of characters to have actual canon ex-modes (Terra and Cecil), while others did not.
Squall's ultimate weapon model is the Lionheart. In the opening of Dissidia, we even see Squall's gunblade glow blue as if it were the Lionheart as well. If you're going to ask that, why do the character's weapons appear magically in their hands whenever they fight in the cutscenes, which include the Onion Knight's two swords? Which also are referenced and explained in the Dissidia Ultimania. It's obviously some type of mechanism of magic.
Apparently they can change weapons at will, and call them at all, and perhaps whenever the character limit break/ex-burst/overdrive/etc that allows them to magically summon their best equipment for the situation. Might be a gift from Cosmos, for all we know.
And I wouldn't hold Advent Children's opening as any conclusive lens as to how the final battle appeared, since before, they didn't even include Cait's moogle, and then they made sure to include it for ACC. Originally people tried to write it off as the creators retconning the moogle, but that wasn't the case. That opening was just a visual representation of Marlene's monologue. And in the final confrontation of in spirit world, Sephiroth was topless as confirmed in the FFVII UO and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. It was just a visual synopsis/re-cap/cliff-notes of what happened in the original game.
ExDeath just doesn't give a shit.
He didn't think he "needed" her. He only wanted her, because he enjoys manipulating and toying with her. Right out of the Settings and Scenario Guide of FFVI, it establishes that Kefka has an affection for Terra, as that of his favorite doll, who he likes to manipulate and play with, and keep all to himself.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
That's bullcrap. Gabranth's badassery has always been directly connected to his helmet. I don't blame the Mist for following it around like lovesick fangirls. This is Gabranth as he should be.
And I suppose Kefka just wanted a partner that is equally batshit to keep him company in those long cold nights. It can get lonely in a monument on non-existence.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
I'm not saying Kefka thought he needed her, but that's the story he managed to sell the other villains. If he has the Triad power, why would they think she would make such a big difference?
And why is he using traps and otherwise failing to make any significant spectacle?
As for Bartz's EX attack, I'd expect it to incorporate the other heroes' weapons since that's something he does in the story. That being said, I wouldn't expect him to have Boko run out of hyperspace/hammerspace/the blackhole pockets in his pants during the actual story, but it does happen during the EX attack.
With Kefka, at most I can accept that he could take on the angelic appearance that he had in that final battle. Actually having the Triad power just doesn't add up for me.
As long as we're discussing hyperspace, where the heroes store their weapons and why they sometimes pull them out of thin air has always been a question. Dissidia just went the Kingdom Hearts route.
As far as explaining that from an in-universe perspective goes, X-2 did a great job of it with the dresspheres. By extention, any character who uses materia or another memory-related source of magic is covered.
WoL and OK probably could be explained by their connections to crystals. Same with Bartz.
Firion doesn't have such a power source, and, so, carries all his weapons on his person at all times.
I must admit that I don't know how to explain Zidane, though. Or Cecil if he ever used that trick. I can't remember if he did, but I don't think so. "It's magic" may be the only explanation we've got.
As for the blade of Squall's weapon glowing, wasn't that just because he was channeling energy through it? It still looked like the Revolver.
And why is he using traps and otherwise failing to make any significant spectacle?
As for Bartz's EX attack, I'd expect it to incorporate the other heroes' weapons since that's something he does in the story. That being said, I wouldn't expect him to have Boko run out of hyperspace/hammerspace/the blackhole pockets in his pants during the actual story, but it does happen during the EX attack.
With Kefka, at most I can accept that he could take on the angelic appearance that he had in that final battle. Actually having the Triad power just doesn't add up for me.
As long as we're discussing hyperspace, where the heroes store their weapons and why they sometimes pull them out of thin air has always been a question. Dissidia just went the Kingdom Hearts route.
As far as explaining that from an in-universe perspective goes, X-2 did a great job of it with the dresspheres. By extention, any character who uses materia or another memory-related source of magic is covered.
WoL and OK probably could be explained by their connections to crystals. Same with Bartz.
Firion doesn't have such a power source, and, so, carries all his weapons on his person at all times.
I must admit that I don't know how to explain Zidane, though. Or Cecil if he ever used that trick. I can't remember if he did, but I don't think so. "It's magic" may be the only explanation we've got.
As for the blade of Squall's weapon glowing, wasn't that just because he was channeling energy through it? It still looked like the Revolver.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Remember. Kefka's batshit insane. His argument doesn't make sense in the first place because you're right. They don't need her. That's why no one's really buying his bullshit reasoning for trying to capture her. Cloud of Darkness eventually found his words to be false. He's only thinking up flimsy excuses to hide the fact he has a hard on for her.
Cause that's what he gets off on. He's another "sadist with a god complex."
I think that's more of a visualization from the game and sound effect easter egg. Whenever a character does their ex-burst, the background shattering is clearly just a mechanic of gameplay. Especially when, if you kill a character with an Ex Burst..when the camera pans around the final blow, you see the character in their EX Burst finishing move, in normal space, with the opponent right in front of them. They didn't smash reality or go into a black hole.
Why not? I'm saying that when he limit breaks, he can tap into that power. He doesn't necessarily have that power all the time, like he did back in FFVI. He has it, but perhaps it's been capped by Chaos, to make them more able to be controlled.
Well it's just magic here. In KH, Sora's keyblade literally materializes out of light. The only consistent tangible aspect of it is the keychain. When you give it a new keychain, the keyblade changes shape.
That is true. But FFX-2 isn't the only game that explained in-universe, the characters getting and finding ultimate weapons. FFV, and FFIV did it too.
That's cause Firion is a weapons master, and his ExBurst is his weapons magically becoming blood-weapons. And I think that's shown in his DO too.
So there you go. That's several characters who's Ex-Bursts are established by story. Doesn't make sense for some to count, and others not to.
The magic argument makes the most sense.
I'm not sure, but it looked larger, and had the distinctive blue glow that the Lionheart had. It wouldn't be the first time Squall in a SE game was able to summon the Lionheart at will, since he did that all through KH and KH2.
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
I'm not so sure that they didn't buy it, though. Exdeath doesn't dispute her usefulness, just whether she can be turned.
Mako Eyes said:
But in FFVI, Kefka was all about some spectacle. Poisoning Doma, ripping the planet open, throwing around the Light of Judgment, letting the planet die slowly, etc. Even the final battle was pretty gaudy. It just seems like a downgrade for him to do the things he does in Dissidia if he's capable of so much more.
Mako Eyes said:
But if we're going to write off some aspects of EX modes as just a visual display -- Gabranth's helmet and Boko, for instance -- why would the argument necessarily stop there while the rest applies to the story? Especially since it leaves us with so much to explain.
Mako Eyes said:
This would be an example of something that would need explaining. As well, we'd have to wonder why the powers are so inconsistent. Kefka gets to have his ultimate powers, but Ultimecia doesn't? For that matter, I don't know that I really see Chaos as more powerful than Ultimecia at the end of FFVIII, and maybe not more powerful than Exdeath at the end of his game. What do you think?
Mako Eyes said:
I wasn't talking about ultimate weapons. Just the means to make weapons materialize out of thin air. X-2 gave this concept a logical reason that could apply to a great number of the heroes.
I was referring to him not having the same kind of memory or crystal-related power sources as the others, and speculating that this may be why he doesn't manifest his weapons in open air like the others. By the way, can you confirm whether the blood weapons switch happens in his DO? I'm still on the cell phone.Mako Eyes said:
But like I said, we'd have to accept inconsistencies in the villains getting their power-ups otherwise. As well, we already accept that not every attack could apply to the story -- Sephiroth's Black Materia attack being the most obvious offender.Mako Eyes said:
Mako Eyes said:
True. I need to watch the FMV again.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
ExDeath is unimpressed and annoyed. He never concedes to her usefulness at all, only states that it's unreasonable and useless to continue pursuing her.
"She was merely an empty vessel then. Not anymore. Even you must be
aware that she acts on her own will now...So cease your plotting. She will never join Chaos. She is sided with Cosmos now."- ExDeath
And Cloud of Darkness is unimpressed with her abilities once she gets her hands on her for herself, and wants to just destroy her.
""Unconscious already... She's too fragile to be of any use."-Cloud of Darkness
So yeah, they're pretty much unimpressed with Kefka's plan in the end.
Kefka mind fucking his favorite doll to doubt herself, and believe she's a monster, eventually leading up to breaking her spirit, and mind controlling her to kill all her friends, and serve as his puppet to destroy the world, doesn't seem spectacular, and gaudy in its plotting and execution? That doesn't quite make sense to me. He seems rather infatuated and eager to make Terra do what he wants, and corner her. The whole fiasco of making Terra join him, and have her doubt herself reminds me of what he did to Celes back in the Magitek factory.
So again. I don't see how this has anything to do with him not doing what he's capable of, and more to the point of him doing what he enjoys.
It's pretty obvious that the background change and shattering effect is the visual representation of the game, unless you believe that, and button input commands somehow factor in and appear as well. That's all visual detail. It has nothing to do with the actual power, abilities, and fighting technique of each character. When the match ends on the final blow of an EX Burst, you see the characters back in the normal visual setting of the stage, in the same position and action they were performing in the EX Burst. It's just show for the game. Not nearly the same thing as the actual power or execution of the attack.
The EX Bursts are explained appropriately and purposefully within the game, the Ultimania, and even conveyed in cutscenes of the story. So it doesn't make sense to write them off as not part of the story when the creator's have purposefully explained and showed them within every facet of their creative work. They've never even said anything to close to them not being part of the story. Gabranth donning his helmet when he gets serious isn't a plot hole at all. It's just how he rolls.
Probably because Ultimecia in that final boss stage with the power of the junction machine induced time compression isn't really her own power. It's her power amplified by an outside medium (i.e. Ellone). And Chaos is definitely more powerful than Ultimecia seeing as his ability has the power to not only control time, but rend space apart. He can shatter dimensions, create timeloops, and even his death creates spacial anomalies and pocket dimensions. That's nothing close to Ultimecia.
ExDeath completely consumed by the Void isn't really ExDeath anymore. That's Neo-ExDeath. An entirely different being.
Ahh, I see. So then you're now open to that possibility here in this case?
Looking at it now, his two swords, and his bow, turn red like blood, but his axe, shield, and daggers all look the same. And actually, I think his swords are already blood-swords in and of themselves
So that example might not be apt as I thought. Damn memory. Not really that many inconsistencies. As I've explained, you could look at it as them being unable to tap into their latent, horrifying powers, until they limit break and are forced to use it. A method of control implemented by Chaos now that they are resurrected and fighting for him. It keeps them in check and unable to do anything that would truly upset his control over them.
And considering Chaos has ressurected Sephiroth with his own unique and ultimate weapon, I wouldn't be surprised if Chaos gave Sephiroth a modified Black Materia that he can use himself. Don't see how that's inconsistent at all.
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Cat Rage Room
Great Old One
- AKA
- Mog
Dissidia has turned A WIZARD DID IT into CHAOS DID IT.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Better than NANOMACHINES
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
Hey Maaaaaaaakooooo....
"I'M FILLING HER UP!"
Time for Terra to go home to Papa....he likes it when she calls him "Papa"...
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
But look what he's replying to:
Exdeath: "The girl awakens to the light. Your plans have come to nothing,
Kefka."
Kefka: "Nothing? Are you blind or just stupid? You saw her power firsthand!"
It seems like Exdeath is acknowledging what Kefka is saying regarding Terra's power, but making the point that he's wasting his time. He does seem annoyed, yes, but Kefka seems to annoy his allies in general.
True, but I still find it significant that Exdeath doesn't say Kefka's wrong about her power.
Besides, whatever CoD was doing may not have been an indication so much of her power as her mental fortitude. She was already worrying about her powers as it was.
The execution isn't particularly extravagant, but I suppose it would be rather theatrical to surprise the heroes with one of their comrades coming to kill them.
Mako Eyes said:
It's a fair enough argument. I'm just making the point that when Kefka has had a shit-ton of power in the past, he didn't really demonstrate all that much restraint in showing it off. As soon as he got the Triad, for instance, he rearranged the surface of the planet.
Mako Eyes said:
Obviously I'm not referring to the vortex. Like you, just the things that appear inside it.
Which ones are featured in cutscenes in a way that makes the EX modes themselves look like they're part of the story rather than utilizing stuff from the story, though? For example, Bartz's EX Burst is a reflection of the story rather than the other way around.
The only ones I can think of that come close are CoD's (she uses a similar looking attack on Onion Knight during his DO) and Ultimecia's (freezing time for a moment and creating a bunch of pink energy daggers) -- but they use both of those abilities while in their normal forms during the story. They also do them from an "at-rest" status, so these attacks are neither associated with the EX modes or a Trance-like moment.
Also, if they're powered up into stronger forms in EX mode, why use stuff that's no different from these abilities they're shown to have otherwise in the story? I genuinely think it's because the EX stuff is just a mechanic of gameplay where the battles are concerned.
While something like Omnislash has a basis in FFVII's story, the EX Burst would, again, be a reflection of the story rather than the other way around.
Now, I grant you Cecil makes that identical pose that the Ultimania mentions, but he's also just performing his standard Darkness attack, which he can perform outside of EX mode anyway.
As for the Ultimania itself, again, since it explains references to some things that couldn't possibly take place within the story (the tutorial stuff), some elements detailed on those pages are just gameplay related.
Of course they took the time to explain them. They were references that they'd added and felt appropriately clever for, so they wanted to make sure people got them -- same as with the things Rydia or Gordon says in the tutorial.
Also, let me make this point: FFIX had a lot of references to past FF games that were similarly just based in gameplay.
Mako Eyes said:
The Warring Triad isn't Kefka's power, either. The Trance form Kuja gets also isn't his own power -- it's "the mighty power of souls."
As for Junction Machine Ellone, all that did was send Ultimecia's consciousness back in time. Time Compression was still hers.
I was referring to the power she had when using Time Compression and absorbing the universe. The woman even had stars in her cloak at that point. She was undoubtedly more powerful at that time than she had been when just junctioned to Griever.
So, once more, I must ask: Why does Kefka get to have his power-up, but Ultimecia doesn't get hers? There's already inconsistencies at work here.
Mako Eyes said:
In her final form? I'll grant you that we don't know how far along she was with the universe absorption process, but that would make her more powerful than Chaos.
Chaos, in the end, is an embodiment of a concept. Absorbing all things, including those who conceived of the concept, would make one more powerful, don't you think?
Mako Eyes said:
He had still gained that power and his goals throughout Dissidia reflect those of Neo Exdeath, not his original self. In FFV, Exdeath had wanted to conquer and rule. His servants from the Rift speak of Exdeath creating a new world for them, and he even says himself that the Void will give him the power "to control the universe."
It was only after he had become Neo Exdeath that he became obsessed with returning everything to the Void -- and this obsession continues in Dissidia.
One got the impression at the end of FFV that his personality had been hijacked, but in Dissidia, he's clearly just come to prefer the idea of the Void. He also uses the same lines from the time he became Neo Exdeath before the final battle against him in Shade Impulse. The Ultimania mentions this as well.
Mako Eyes said:
Well, no, not exactly. XD
My speculation on how it's done was just in response to your comment: "If you're going to ask that, why do the character's weapons appear magically in their hands whenever they fight in the cutscenes ...?"
You should know better than to challenge me of all people to try speculating an explanation for something! It's gonna happen! I can't resist.
Mako Eyes said:Looking at it now, his two swords, and his bow, turn red like blood, but his axe, shield, and daggers all look the same. And actually, I think his swords are already blood-swords in and of themselves
Aight.
Mako Eyes said:
But all of this requires us to speculate endlessly. It's so much more simple to conclude that the villains simply don't have their ultimate power-ups from the original games.
We've always explained certain things away as simply mechanics of gameplay -- since the first Final Fantasy even. Obviously heroes and villains don't take turns attacking, Barret didn't have access to a satellite with a laser, Phoenix Downs don't bring back the dead, etc.
Dissidia as well is going to have elements like that. I just think that Sephiroth's Black Materia attack and the EX modes are likely among them.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
That's pretty much it. And again, Kefka has a very powerful tie and hard on for her that manifests through this sadism.
That's all true, but again, going by his own unique desires to play with Terra. He's getting off on that first. I mean, look how it describes how he sees Terra and Celes in the Settai Shiryou:
You see the precident here? Kefka enjoys manipulating and toying with people, particularly because he seriously feels they're his toys. I mean, he says it himself: he's a sadist with a god complex.
Ahh okay. Well then, I'm really confused at what you find so inconsistent. You need to explain to me what causes you to dismiss EX Modes in the first place even though the game states nothing of the sort, and places characters inherent transformation that's apart of the plot (Terra, and to a degree Cecil's) within this gameplay feature. If they're just gameplay, then that means Terra really doesn't have an Esper form when her power peaks, and Cecil can't freely go from Dark Knight to Paladin.
I use Bartz's as an example because while it's a reflection of the story, it is consistent with the story, and referenced numerous times as him being a mastered mime. Which is what that Ex form is. Cecil, and again, there's Terra's transformation into an Esper that are pretty important plot line Ex Modes. Also, whenever Sephiroth appears, he's followed by black feathers. Those feathers are clearly coming from his single black wing which he can produce once he fully uses his power.
But to fully answer your question and address your point, I'd look at Cecil using Darkness against Golbez in DO4, in their confrontation. For one, Cecil can only use that move in EX Mode. And Cecil's Ex Mode is the free transformation between Dark Knight and Paladin between attacks (called Proteus). He does all of that in his cinematic clash with Golbez and performs and EX Mode/Burst exclusive move. So there you go.
That's true. But that's not the case with every character. And I've just shown an example of a full EX mode depiction within the storyline.
Also, Ultimecia's EX mode isn't her being able to simply do the time compression magic attack, it's based on her junctioning herself to Griever. So her performing that ability sans junctioning Griever, isn't really that surprising, or a statement of Ex Modes not being part of the story. She just...did the attack, without her guardian force.
That'd be more akin to them being unable to replace any of the character models themselves within every battle cutscene of the story. That makes no sense for have the EX mode be nothing but a mechanic of gameplay but have one of the EX modes, Terra's esper form, Bartz's trance, Squall's equipping the Lionheart in the intro, and Cecil's ability to freely transform from Paladin to Dark Knight.
Also, you have the fact they directly refer to Emperor Mateus's EX Mode in Shade Impulse 2-5.
Emperor Mateus's unique power in Ex Mode stems from "The Power of Hellfire," from his resurrection from hell. He's the same Emperor who has the powers of hell. ExDeath's power comes from the Void, and he references sending people to it and using its power, like to make the fake Crystal Bartz grabbed. If he has the power of the Void, then of course he can use it's power to augment himself into the tree like appearance he takes in FFV and Dissidia. Because that's what the Void does to him.
Whenever Sephiroth faces Kuja, Kuja quips he intends to "clip his wing" which is obviously a reference to his one winged angel form again, when he achieves Reunion. Another reference to an EX appearance within the story and characters.
Onion Knight can job change as well, and asks Zidane when fighting if he can be a thief as well. Clearly Onion Knight is capable of becoming a Sage, Ninja, or any other job if he so wishes.
EDIT: Oh and back to the subject of Kefka, his standard HP attack, "Havoc Wing" is a clear reference and partial transformation based on his angelic form. He's stabbing you with his 4 angelic wings, and two demonic wings. Now how would that move make any sense under the assumption he doesn't have his final transformation...when he partially taps into said transformation to stab you in battle?
Still only apears though when Cloud EX Bursts..
Actually, Cecil only preforms the move "Darkness" while in EX Mode. He has variants that use the power of darkness, but the particular move from FFIV, "Darkness" which is his strongest Darkness variant attack he uses with the Deathbringer sword, is only preformed in EX Mode. Which in turn he uses in DO4 against Golbez. So you could easily say that's Cecil fighting and using his EX form abilities right there in that cutscene.
So again, that cements the whole EX mechanic (which is just a form of limit breaking in the first place) right there into the plot. I don't know why you find it so hard to accept. It's been made apart of the plot of FFIX, and then in FFVII. So the precedent is there. FFVII references limit breaks as part of the story, as does FFIX. FFX to an extent as well.
The stuff that are obvious gameplay references are referred to as the menu help and player icon stuff, but the battles the actual storyline references each character has in their abilities can't be ignored. They refer to the character's abilities within the story. Furthermore, the Ultimania alpha only spoke of the things that appeared within Dissidia in terms of the profiles for the characters and how they were within the story. For example:
Emperor Mateus EX Info said:
Is included in his profile that discusses how he plays within the Dissidia plot. It's part of his main profile in this story, not just a profile that talks about who he was before, or what easter eggs or whatever they included.
Rydia isn't a playable character, or important to the plot at all. There's nothing that contradicts the story or is at odds with it. Nor do the Ex Modes talk to the player or break the 4th wall.
But that has nothing to do with the inherit, plot derived transformation known as Trance, which Kuja and Zidane are capable of doing.
It became his once the Warring Triad were killed and he eventually became the living embodiment of all Magic. Kuja used the power of the Invincible souls to allow him to trance. That's how he learned it, but all living creatures are able to trance, so Kuja being able to trance under his own magical potential makes perfect sense.
Yeah, but Ultimecia was using all of the Soreceress's throughout every age of time to do a complete, large scale version of Time Compression rather than the one she can do alone. And she did that with the help of Ellone.
Because she used the power of every sorceress in existence to do that.
Kefka's using the magic powers he got from the statues and absorbed for himself, and they're dead.
Ultimecia's power requires the use of every sorceress of every age, and the ability of a unique individual to send her consciousness into the past to use the power of every sorceress to create time compression.
One power is easily wielded and properly apart of their being, the other requires other individuals and a unique situation and circumstance. Ultimecia's ability to create GFs and junction herself to them to further increase her power, and time abilities however only requires herself.
Not particularly, Chaos has absorbed and shattered several universes at once by the time of Dissidia. Ultimecia only partially did one and was stopped. I don't think it says that Ultimecia's ability would have spread through out every known universe in existence. Only the universe of FFVIII. Chaos however shattered his universe, and every other FF world out there.
And yeah, he embodies that concept to T.
His mind has been altered and corrupted thanks to Neo ExDeath, but he isn't the hulking demon composition of Neo-ExDeath, which required ExDeath to die, and literally be consumed completely by the Void itself. Almost like Enuo. When you die in the Void, it changes you, as shown by all the characters who've used it, and end up becoming obsessed with its power and returning all to it.
Well, no, not exactly. XD
My speculation on how it's done was just in response to your comment: "If you're going to ask that, why do the character's weapons appear magically in their hands whenever they fight in the cutscenes ...?"
You should know better than to challenge me of all people to try speculating an explanation for something! It's gonna happen! I can't resist.
LOL true enough, but clearly the storyline shows that the heroes can use magic, to manifest their weapons when necessary. Same goes for Chaos's warriors, since Sephiroth does the same. It's right there in the storyline cutscenes.
Not really. All you have to do is follow what the game and creators have explained in terms of each of the character's EX abilities.
You completely throwing them out, causes inconsistencies because the storyline references Emperor Mateus as being resurrected from Hell itself (which his Ex Form is a manifestation of that action), Kuja references Sephiroth's one wing that appears only when he goes into Ex Mode, Sephiroth is followed by numerous black feathers whenever he appears, Cecil has the ability to freely go from Dark Knight to Paladin, Terra has her Esper transformation, and Bartz is a mastered Mime. Those are all part of the Ex mechanic.
You create a logical hole of inconsistency stating they're just gameplay and not relevant to the story when the game itself references them, the Ultimania references them in terms of their storyline significance and connection to the character's storyline pasts, and they're even referenced by the character's themselves within the game.
So if it's gameplay, then Terra is not capable of trance (which completely invalidates why she's so powerful and unable to control said power), Cecil's ability to switch freely is erased, Bartz's mimicry and ability to call all of the character's weapons at once is erased, Sephiroth has no wing, and Squall has no Lionheart.
Those things are based on systematic or graphical limitations. Dissidia has none of those, and none of the EX forms are inconsistent at all. They just feature the characters manifesting the power they've had before and been gifted with again thanks to their respective deity. And Phoenix Downs don't bring back the dead, but they've never been actually referenced as bringing back the dead. They revive you from an unconscious state in all FF's that explain them.
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Yeah, I get you. But then I have to ask this: Once Kefka decided that he was just going to kill her, why didn't he just go ahead and do it? She didn't have backup this time.
It was just her -- one middle-of-the-road magical being -- against him -- the supposed source of all magical power on their world. Even if he had to Limit Break to actually get ahold of that immense power, once he did, she'd be done.
Mako Eyes said:
Obviously the game wouldn't state it. None of the games have ever taken the time to itemize the gameplay elements and then identify which out of all of them should and shouldn't be taken as part of the story.
Usually we conclude that if an element does show up in the story, then it's actually part of it, right? Unless it's really obviously crap that doesn't apply, like, "Push the [OK] button in front of a ladder to grab on to it. After that, use the [Directional button] to move up and down."
Mako Eyes said:
Terra's been half-Esper since her game, and transformed during that story. As well, Cecil goes from Dark Knight to Paladin within Dissidia's story, sometimes from one cutscene he appears in to the next one. He also does it during the game's opening after blocking a blast CoD meant for Cloud.
Neither of these transformations are dependent on the gameplay, just as the story itself isn't. As far as "reality" goes, the story always comes first and gameplay second.
If the story corroborates the presence of an element of gameplay, then it's part of the story -- but that doesn't automatically make all elements of gameplay part of the story.
Several Limit Breaks from FFVII have been established as "real," but we're still waiting on Satellite Beam. And I think we always will be. XD
Mako Eyes said:
But he doesn't have to go into a Limit Break to access that power. He casually uses it in DO scene 40, generating Cloud's sword, then Squall's, and then Zidane's weapons in rapid succession.
Obviously Bartz would really be able to perform his EX Burst attack, but we know that because of what he did in the story.
Mako Eyes said:
But those feathers only appear when he's making an entrance in the gameplay. In the story, you never see feathers when he teleports in or out, so you can't really use another element of gameplay that isn't consistent with the story as corroboration for an element of gameplay that's being assessed for application to the story. Know what I mean?
As for the wing, in the first place, I don't think Sephiroth needs to go into a Limit Break to pull it out. He seemed pretty calm when he generated it in Advent Children.
Mako Eyes said:
But that's once more just the EX mode making use of something that was already in the story, and which the character doesn't seem to require a Limit Break/Trance to perform within the story.
For that matter, when Cecil uses the attack in his DO, he doesn't have Deathbringer out, unlike the EX Burst, so the EX mode isn't entirely consistent with the story there either.
Even if it were, though, Cecil's not doing anything in the EX mode that the story hasn't already shown us he could do. It's nothing on the order of accessing power great enough to rip the world apart, despite not even an inkling of such ability ever being demonstrated in the parts of the story where it would be useful.
Mako Eyes said:
But for the purposes of gameplay, she can't perform that specific attack otherwise. However, simply because she can't do it in gameplay -- where the player has an interface with a limited number of commands for her and a limited number of ways to give her those commands, and where the developer has a need to provide variety while also taking mechanics like HP into account -- that doesn't mean she has the same limitations in "reality."
Mako Eyes said:
It makes sense in that it adds variety to gameplay, just like Satellite Beam. What I feel wouldn't make sense, though, is if some techniques these characters can use any time they want in "reality" can only be used in gameplay via EX mode while simultaneously counting EX mode as "real."
Do you see my dilemma?
By the way, watching the game's opening again, Squall definitely doesn't have the Lionheart. It's just the Revolver with blue energy coursing around the blade. The energy even disperses into little clouds several times during the clash, revealing the naked metal of the Revolver, only for Squall to channel more energy into it for the next strike:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/270/squallvsseph.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6587/squallvsseph2.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/440/squallvsseph3.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7931/squallvsseph4.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1386/squallvsseph5.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4315/squallvsseph6.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8329/squallvsseph7.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3959/squallvsseph8.jpg
The Revolver's handle is also visible during the entire sequence.
Aside: Screenshots of Squall's battle with Seph makes you appreciate how intense it was, despite its duration.
Mako Eyes said:
In SI, he doesn't come back for the same reason he did in FFII, where he had become the King of Hell. He came back because of Chaos -- the same reason all the other villains came back for another round in Shade Impulse, and the same reason the Emperor kept coming back throughout Dissidia, despite being the villain killed the most times throughout the story.
Also, the Emperor doesn't have his King of Hell form in SI, which he had from the moment of his resurrection onward in FFII. And I doubt it was beyond the developers ability to give him his demonic form in the cutscenes if they'd wanted to. Just look at Chaos.
While we're on the topic, the increased power the Emperor has in SI is a result of his plan with Jecht and the crystals, not because he's the King of Hell again. The SI chapter summary doesn't identify the Emperor as being newly resurrected from Hell as its king -- just that he has been resurrected from there. And the point of bringing it up seems to have been to emphasize his "ruthless ambition."
Mako Eyes said:
Exdeath has the natural ability to manipulate the Void. That's something he always had. It wasn't a power-up the way the Warring Triad was for Kefka or the additional sorceress powers were for Ultimecia.
Mako Eyes said:
That's in gameplay, not the story. Some of these characters never even fight each other in the story -- Kuja and Sephiroth being an example -- and then some of these battle quotes are just there for humor's sake. For example, Tidus asking the Emperor, "What's this 'Ungaahh' business?" (don't know why they changed it from "Uboar," but whatever).
I don't think any of us think that Tidus actually said this to the Emperor when they fought during his DO.
Mako Eyes said:
But that's something that was also part of the story in OK's original game, yes?
Mako Eyes said:
That happens in gameplay, not in the story. I don't see the need to explain it.
Mako Eyes said:
It would be rather ridiculus if he could use it any time, wouldn't it? Both in terms of variety in gameplay, and in logic. This is Cloud's ultimate attack -- the one that took out Sephiroth on multiple occasions.
If he could just use it any time, it would be neither consistent with the story, nor that sensible if it had to be watered down so that it didn't end every fight within 10 seconds.
Mako Eyes said:
When I said that Cecil can use Darkness outside of his EX mode anyway, my meaning was that it's always been his standard ability as a Dark Knight. It wouldn't be dependent on a Limit Break.
Also, as I mentioned earlier in this post, Deathbringer isn't present during the cutscene in DO IV. Neither is the Mythgraven Blade. Nor does anything about the scene really suggest that Cecil is performing a Limit Break.
For that matter, Cecil takes the Darkness pose at the beginning of every fight as well. So it's not like the presence of the pose in a DO cutscene and the presence of the pose in Cecil's EX Burst is a unique connection.
Mako Eyes said:
I've never disputed the presence of Limit Breaks/Trances in the stories. They're obviously there. This is about the specific manner in which EX modes are used in the gameplay of Dissidia and how applicable they are to the story of the game.
When we see Firion go into what's obviously his Trance during the story on two occasions, it's quite different from what happens when he performs his EX Burst, isn't it? There's no blue aura around him or the weapons like we see in the story. Not to mention, in the story, the weapons don't all become Blood Weapons, as in the EX Burst.
Anyway, my opposition to accepting the EX modes so readily is this: I've always strictly adhered to the idea that gameplay mechanics weren't to be taken as part of the story unless the story itself seemed to invite them in.
Not to mention the WTF Factor of accepting that Kefka had the power of the Warring Triad in Dissidia. In addition to all the inconsistencies we've got in play here when trying to make the battle mechanics fit neatly with the story of Dissidia, we've got one extremely glaring plot issue to reconcile in the form of Kefka not annihilating Terra once he was actually trying to.
It's far easier to swallow that he simply doesn't have that power here.
Mako Eyes said:
I haven't seen anything from the Ultimania Alpha. Does it not otherwise reference gameplay at all?
Mako Eyes said:
They do challenge the limits of plausibility, however.
And, again: Boko?
Mako Eyes said:
I wasn't saying it had anything to do with Trance. I was making the point that there is a precedent for references showing up in gameplay while having absolutely no relation to the story.
Mako Eyes said:
By that argument, shouldn't the sorceress powers from across the ages have permanently become Ultimecia's once they were dead and she absorbed their powers?
Even without the additional energy likely gained from absorbing chunks of the universe, she would have had ridiculus power at that point -- and Squall didn't have a pre-ordained time loop on his side in Dissidia.
Mako Eyes said:
I got the impression from the FFIX Ultimania translations posted here that Kuja couldn't Trance on his own because he didn't grow up like normal creatures. Perhaps he had gained the necessary emotions by the time of Dissidia, though.
In any case, I'm not disputing that Kuja should be able to Trance -- just whether he should have the ultimate power-up he had in FFIX, the way you're saying Kefka should have his ultimate power-up from FFVI.
If Kuja just has a Trance, but not the same Trance, then Kefka gets his power-up and Kuja doesn't -- thus, leaving us with another inconsistency like we have with Ultimecia.
Mako Eyes said:
But shouldn't the power she gained still be hers if Kefka gets to keep his? She, after all, absorbed it and made it her own just as he did.
Mako Eyes said:
I just don't see a difference. You could maybe make the argument that she shouldn't have gotten to keep the power she drew on from the universe at-large, but why not that of the other sorceresses?
Sure, she was beaten down and her energy depleted by the time she died, but Kefka was fought and killed as well. So why would he have this amazing power and his allies wouldn't?
Mako Eyes said:
Fair enough. That should put them on a different level then.
Which really only further begs the question in my mind of why he couldn't provide her with her ultimate power-up if Kefka got his.
Mako Eyes said:
Fair enough. You may be able to make the argument that Exdeath and Neo Exdeath are different beings. I personally don't see them as such -- no reason for the Void to name itself after Exdeath, after all, if it isn't still him as the basis. And Dissidia does show that Exdeath has the personality of Neo Exdeath.
But we'll let that one go. I've provided enough examples already, I think, of inconsistent power-ups across the resurrected villains.
Mako Eyes said:
Honestly, I think it removes them. XD
As well as the logic hurdles we would have to overcome if no inconsistencies were at work and all of the villains really got their ultimate power-ups after all. In Squall, Terra and Zidane's cases, they simply shouldn't have been able to pull off a win.
Mako Eyes said:
He has been. But in this case, the story doesn't identify him as the King of Hell at this time. There's another reason he came back.
Mako Eyes said:
All of those are demonstrated in gameplay only. And Tidus references -- also in gameplay only -- the Emperor's laughable death cry, which he wasn't there for previously.
Mako Eyes said:
Actually, those are all part of the story and reflected within the EX mechanic. There's things that the EX mechanic adds, though, that weren't in the story (Deathbringer, Mythgraven Blade, Boko, etc.).
Mako Eyes said:
Therein may be one of our problems. I look at the story as existing first and then look at the gameplay to see what it reflects of that. I don't look for the story to reflect anything of the gameplay.
If there's consistency, it's because the gameplay has utilized something from the story.
Mako Eyes said:
It wouldn't. She's half-Esper in Dissidia because she was half-Esper in FFVI -- not because Dissidia, which came out many years later, gave her an EX mode where she transforms into an Esper.
Mako Eyes said:
It's in the cutscenes.
Mako Eyes said:
Also in the cutscenes.
Mako Eyes said:
In FFVII and ACC.
Mako Eyes said:
He doesn't have it.
Mako Eyes said:
Not Satellite Beam or the fact that Meteor takes weeks to hit. The latter's speed is part of the story, while Satellite Beam just isn't part of the story period.
Mako Eyes said:
But that's just the thing -- they don't have those powers! Kefka has his, but not Exdeath, Ultimecia or Kuja? Sephiroth probably doesn't even have his given that he was able to commit suicide -- one gets the impression that he was revived in his original body.
And if Ultimecia and Kuja did have their powers, there's no reason they should have lost. Same with Kefka, truth be told.
Mako Eyes said:And Phoenix Downs don't bring back the dead, but they've never been actually referenced as bringing back the dead. They revive you from an unconscious state in all FF's that explain them.
You're missing my point in bringing those up, but just because I'm a pain in the ass by nature, I'm going to pull out this quote. XD
The Aletap Rumors of FFXII said this:
"The undying phoenix is said to call back souls from the heavens, but to win the attention of such fabled bird, you must give up a feather as an offering. The best are the downy feathers of the tail... hence the term phoenix down, see? Mark well that not just any feather will do. Depending on quality and size, the blessing received varies greatly. Displeased? You get what you pay for." - Kirrik, Pugilist
EDIT: I doubt if we'll come to an agreement on this, but it's been fun to discuss nonetheless. I hope you see where I'm coming from.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
...Because she's the hero, and she was able to win cause she was stronger? I mean, it's not that hard to accept. How was Cloud able to defeat Sephiroth in ACC? It's the same thing.
So why should we automatically assume something is not apart of it and parse it from the rest of everything else? Unless it's radically incongruent (i.e. breaking the 4th wall, defying internal thematic/world logic) how can you just say its not part of the story too?
By that very logic then, the EX Burst of all the characters would be acceptable and part of the story. Kefka's had his transformation since his game and transformed during the story. He even *partially* transforms into it when attacking with Havoc Wing. And I don't think you can say that the attacks are only gameplay, seeing as how we see the characters using their gameplay attacks within cutscenes of the story itself.
So then again, by that logic, there's no reason to discount the EX modes of any of the characters because they appeared in the storylines of each of the characters' original games. They're part of their characters' story.
Satellite Beam is just gimmick illusion. All it is, is just Barret firing a blast of energy from the sky from his gun. It's not so much as the attack doesn't exist, it's just that it's illusionary and gimmicky. That's all.
So then what's...the disagreement? You've just accepted that he'd be able to do it, and it wouldn't be inconsistent based on the story. XD
Why are you parsing the gameplay and story separately, when they're both completely consistent? The game itself is drawing the gameplay moves, features, and abilities into cutscenes (such as the characters fighting each other with the same moves they have in gameplay) so why are dividing the two? You only have to divide the two when there's a clear inconsistency. When the storyline itself is corroborating the moves in gameplay as existing within the story, there's no reason at all to throw it all out.
Sephiroth is capable of limit breaking, since he even is stated to have one. And I'd say that he too limit breaked (or at least did something equivalent to it) when he finally got serious in terms of his wound inflicting on Cloud. The mode where he donnes the wing in Dissidia (whatever you want to call it..Ex mode, limit break, etc) is pretty much that form itself. So again, why say it doesn't exist and isn't part of the story, when it is in line with the story in the first place?
So if each EX Mode is using something that's consistent and present in the story, showcasing it, and never stating it as just being an excluisve gameplay element, incongruent with the story, we should doubt it? Why?
You're missing what I'm saying. Yeah, of course he doesn't have to limit break to class change. But to do it while in combat and in-between attacking, while also using his unique ability which is only accessible while in Ex-Mode, is pretty much an obvious nod to his EX mode. That's all it is.
You really think they would have Cecil flying around in the air as he does in his EX burst (something he's never been shown to do in any other cutscene in the whole game), fighting, transforming between each attack, and then at the end, performing the final move of his EX mode, and not have Cecil's Ex burst in mind in terms of their intent and portrayal? You're kinda holding me to an unreachable standard here. I've just shown a pretty heavy nod to him Ex Bursting within the story against Golbez.
Just because he doesn't use the Deathbringer, doesn't change the fact he's doing something entirely unique within the story, that parallels his Ex Burst almost completely. The fact he doesn't use that weapon would be a result of them never changing the models of the character's weapons within the cutscene. If you look at all of the moves and references in that scene completely, you'd see that he's fighting in ways that mirror his Ex form.
All of the villains have powers that have the capability of ripping the world apart. Sephiroth's profile even says he has more than enough power to do so. So again, that's not inconsistent at all.
Oh of course. She definitely doesn't have that restriction in the story. I never said she did. What I'm saying though, is that, that cutscene doesn't imply the lack of existence of her Ex mode ability. Which is junctioning to Griever. She could do either one.
Okay, I see what you're saying. But Ex mode is pretty much the equivalent of limit breaking, and most of those forms and abilities are pretty much what happens when the characters have their backs against the wall. If you analyze it that way, it makes sense. Or you can look at it as the characters themselves personally having a preference as to when they want to use their abilities and when they don't want to. Ultimecia doesn't have to junction herself to Griever every single fight, for example.
Why does Terra not fight all her battles in her Esper form? Because that would expend a lot of energy, and it would make controlling her powers even more difficult. Why does Cloud not fight in his limit break form all the time, with the Ultima Weapon? Because expending that much spirit energy all the time would tire him out and waste energy, and while Ultima Weapon is a better weapon, he prefers to use the Buster Sword (Zack's memento) because of personal preference.
You can explain their limit break/overdrive/etc forms that way. They're really not that hard to explain. I see what you're saying about how it'd be a dilemna but you can easily chalk it up to either character choice, or practicality. You can't constantly fight every battle at full strength, otherwise you'd tire yourself out endlessly.
Ahh okay. My mistake then. And yeah, it was a pretty epic looking clash. I love that part, so much. XD
For whatever reason, they don't change the models or anything, in any cutscene of Dissidia, even when it would make sense to. So I dunno if it was a space thing, or laziness. So I wouldn't be too sure of if it were within the developer's ability. My main point though, was that they referenced his iconic transformation from FFII, which in turn is also referenced in his EX Mode.
That's true, but I just thought I'd point out a nod to his original form from FFII.
And ExDeath has the natural ability to turn into a giant tree XD
That's something he's always had.
And I don't think junctioning herself to Griever is an additional sorceress power Ultimecia had. She was always said to be capable of controlling or creating Guardian Forces. That didn't have to do with her Time Compression plan.
Why does this always come back to Kefka? XD
How do you know they never fought in the story? It's entirely possible, nay, probable, that some time within the previous cycle or during a time we do not see, Kuja and Sephiroth could've crossed paths. Kuja is shown to be easy to annoy, and more than willing to pick a fight with even his own comrades. Why would the developers go through the trouble of writing unique lines of dialogue that express and showcase the personalities and relationships between the characters, if they didn't want us to take them into consideration? I'm really failing to see how you can just discount them, when authorial intent is clearly there in terms of looking at them for their relationship between characters.
Uh, knowing Tidus. I definitely he did. XD Why wouldn't he? That's so Tidus, it hurts. Look how he speaks to Seymour in FFX. It's his character.
Yes, and it appears here as well.
Character unique attacks are apart of the story. Warrior of Light uses Rune Saber in his showdown against Garland. Kefka uses Ultima against Onion Knight. Cloud uses Braver against Sephiroth. Sephiroth uses Sudden Cruelty against Cloud. Golbez uses Cosmic Ray against Cecil. You can't argue that their attacks are only gameplay and not part of the story, when every character's attacks are showcased in the story. How does that make sense? You can't just pick and choose which attacks are part of the story, and which aren't, man.
Exactly. And that's where my explanation earlier comes into play. You can't fight at maximum strength each and every fight. It'd be a waste of energy. Cloud would be exhausting himself, and not even taking his own advice. So that, coupled with his preference for using the Buster Sword, makes perfect sense as to why he's not just wielding the Ultima Weapon or Ex Bursting/limit breaking every single time.
Ahh I see. But in terms of Dissidia, that's his strongest, inherent skill which he uses when he's at his maximum strength.
And while those two weapons aren't present in the scene, that doesn't discount everything else he's doing which mirrors his Ex Burst. That's still part of his ability.
No..not really. He only takes that exact posture from FFIV when doing his Ex Mode attack, Darkness. When he starts a fight, he takes a similar stance when summoning his weapon, but it's not that exact stance.
Okay, maybe I misunderstood you, and for that I'm sorry....Because I agree with you here. I don't think there are little blue, crystal bells that always conveniently appear in a fight between two people. No, I don't think that at all. Nor do I think grabbing said bells is needed to limit break. But I'm just saying that the unique transformations and skills each character is depicted as having in this Ex Mode, is applicable and part of their story and character. Because they're all based on their inherent abilities/transformations/etc.
I don't think that's his trance/limit break at all, actually. All he's doing in those cutscenes is using the attack "Weaponmaster." It parallels it perfectly. His weapons get that same magical blue aura, and move telepathically as they do in each cutscene.
That was applicable back when FF games were turn based, not to scale, and had grossly inconsistent portrayals. But games today don't have that problem, especially an action game as Dissidia where there are things that are consistent.
Not that hard to accept. It's not the same scale of power as it was in FFVI since he only is capable of tapping into it as a limit break. But it's still him being able to fight as a form, stronger than he was as just a Magitek knight. He has achieved power greater than what he had before.
And really, why are you acting like Terra's abilities are so grossly inadequate when compared to Kefka? She's an actual Esperkin, who was probably the strongest character in terms of raw magical power, in FFVI.
Nope, not in their initial storyline profiles. It's not a strategy or game guide, all it does is serve to introduce the characters and their stories, since it's only an "Ultimania *alpha." It speaks of their fighting style at most and what to expect, but it's an introductory guidebook that just outlines how they are in their story/game and what they can do. But it's not a really a strategy guide at all. Here's an example.
I don't really think so, dude.
That's really more of an easter egg, if anything.
Well that's true, but that's not always the case.
Considering how that essentially makes her a universal god, I think the creators decided that wouldn't really work, and thus she was given her other form, which was more inherit to her, and within the realm of plausibility. That's just their choice in terms of creating the game.
So you've kinda answered your own question, as to why they didn't
That's what I'm thinking, too. And it makes sense, and is plausible.
It's not really an inconsistency. It's more like, creator choice. Why do you think they chose to make Sephiroth his one-winged form from AC, instead of him being Safer Sephiroth? In the end, it's creative discretion. There aren't any real rules for them to follow.
Well, I'm sure Ultimecia felt that way too. It's really just creative choice, man.
Well, I've been explaining this change from an out-of-universe perspective. But in terms of the storyline, you could explain that as Chaos's own discretion. Remember, he is the one who's pulling these villains from their respective universes, and resurrecting them to fight for him.
Well, in terms of the story, Chaos probably felt that Ultimecia's power at that time was simply two great. Because as you've explained and pointed out, that almost puts her on the same level as Chaos himself.
Interestingly enough, Chaos's encounter quotes kinda hints at him feeling his power is superior to hers.. "Time does not exist in chaos."
Well in Dissidia's setting, where pretty much, all the remains of existence had been shattered and combined into the single twisted world we see them interact in...a power such as hers would pretty much be capable of doing the same thing Chaos was trying to do. She's one of the strongest villains, in terms of her universal Time Compression form. If she had that power in Dissidia...and was capable and allowed to use it, do you not see the existential clusterfuck that would occur? She would exist as a singularity in the universe, and time would stop. That would make things even more screwy than they are now.
Hey, you've only given me two! Kefka, and Ultimecia. And I've explained them. In-Universe, and out.
Kefka's power isn't at the same level as it was in FFVI, seeing as how he's only able to use it as a last resort. It's not the same as FFVI. As for why Ultimecia not getting her final form, it's just creator choice, or in terms of the story, Chaos not wanting her to have it.
That's not inconsistent at all. You don't think Firion and Tidus ever talked about their previous experiences against the villains? Tidus told Firion about Jecht, why wouldn't Firion talk about the Emperor and humorously mention the sound he made as he fell? That's how he'd know about it, and it's rather funny. There's no need to automatically discount it as an inconsistency at all.
They were in their original story however, and by that alone, that validates them. I don't see any reason at all to discount them, if they're validated by having appeared in the previous story.
You don't think it can work both ways? Dissidia is a perfect example of that! A majority of the gameplay examples reflect aspects of the original story for all the characters. It doesn't have to be either/or.
Exactly. They match up and they've made the gameplay reflect the story. There's no reason at all to doubt this.
How do you know he doesn't has it? In almost every depiction of Squall ever made, he's referenced as having the Lionheart. It's even named after him. Why would he not have his Lionheart in FFVIII, and here in Dissidia? Why do you see that as not making sense? It's more than plausible that he obtained it. That's pretty much what the creators of the story are saying. They've never said anything to the contrary.
Satellite Beam is just illusion, just like Supernova, man. It's not that much of an inconsistency. They've had attacks like that many times.
Creator discretion. Or Chaos discretion. In terms of the story, that's Chaos's choice as to how he resurrects them and allows them to manifest their powers. They're tied to him and his existence. There's no real set rule in terms of who has what.
You're not a pain in the ass, you just have a differing viewpoint. And we're discussing it ^^ I think we've made some progress since I better understand your position and where you're coming from.
Well that rumor right there from FFXII, is a rumor about how Phoenix Down works, but several games and stories refer to it as only bringing you back to consciousness. That's what it even says in FF Tactics. When you get KO'd, you're near death. And if you don't apply the Phoenix Downs in time, you actually, fully die. That's what makes sense.
What you quoted right there, is just rumor. And creatively, I think it's a tongue-in-cheek nod, to how players think that Phoenix Downs literally raise the dead, in terms of gameplay.
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Cetra29
Final Fantasy Freak
- AKA
- Cetra, cetra1, Cetra29, Sephiroth
Square-Enix itself has mentioned in one of their interviews that Sephiroth is the strongest Final Fantasy VII character. When even the creators say it, I guess it's proof enough.