That's a creative explanation that I like, but I still think it doesn't work for the reasons outlined in the discussion I've been having with Mako. If Kefka got the full powers of the Warring Triad for even a few minutes, we're looking at a depopulation event right there.
Well technically, there's no one really alive in Dissidia's world save for the characters, and manikins wandering about
But see, I'm not saying Kefka's powers from the Warring Triad are of the same magnitude as they were in FFVI. When he's sending his Light of Destruction down on an enemy, it's not of the same intensity as it was back in FFVI where it was capable of splitting the earth. Just like Sephiroth's Black Materia isn't conjuring up a planetoid sized meteor to slam into the opponent. It's at a lower intensity. It's been toned down.
But Meteor itself as far as FFVII is concerned is never described as anything less than an ELE.
It's the Black Magic spell Meteor of Final Fantasy. It's been given a plot role in FFVII's story, but it's still the same magic. In terms of power its higher than all else, but there's no reason to doubt it couldn't be scaled down to be used on a smaller scale if one's spirit energy is mighty enough to control it. Which is definitely the case with Sephiroth. And then you could also reason that Chaos is the one who fashioned it to work in this manner for his purpose of defeating Cosmos.
I had felt they were defying internal thematic/world logic, but one of your later points makes me wonder if maybe not.
But to clarify, you'd say that OK's EX Burst isn't part of the story due to the 4th wall-breaking elements?
I wouldn't say Onion Knight's Ex Burst isn't part of the story. He definitely can throw shurikens and cast Holy, and either do a Back Attack, or finish his spells with Meteor.
But..the whole input windows, taking a step forward, and basically mimicing a turn based battle from FFIII, is just gameplay/easter egg. He's not really fighting like that. It's the same way as when discussing an old school FF, the heroes aren't really taking turns beating each other, or having windows to input things. They're just fighting.
In terms of Onion Knight's Ex Burst, the gameplay takes a radical shift temporarily to turned base for nostalgia, and has you input Onion Knight's actions that way. But in terms of story, it's definitely not there. It's just Onion Knight throwing shurikens and fighting and all.
Like I said, if an ability shows up within the story, it's automatically counted as part of the story from there on for me.
See, that criteria makes perfect sense in old school RPGs and all. But you gotta remember that Dissidia isn't just an RPG. It's also a 3D, to scale, fighting game. You're not really going to run into implausible, illogical conundrums such as turned based fighting, backgrounds that aren't to scale, Sabin suplexing a moving train, or Tifa Meteodriving Emerald WEAPON. The characters are in their set environment, fighting with their given moves.
And see, I think that if the storyline here in Dissidia validates the existence of character Bravery/HP fighting moves, such as Cloud using Braver, Emperor Mateus using Lightning Crest, Golbez using Cosmic Ray, etc...then that's a pretty strong authorial nod in favor of character attacks being considered part of the story. The story has not given us any reason to doubt their existence or to pick and choose which attacks exist, and which attacks do not. Logically speaking, unless there's an attack that just makes absolutely no logical/thematic sense, all attacks are to be taken. Why take Braver, but not Havoc Wing, when they both serve the same function, and are both attacks used by characters within this game? Impartially, and logically speaking, what would be the reason?
The problem we were presented is in whether the heroes could plausibly defeat the villains if they still had their previous powers.
But isn't that a bit of a subjective criticism? Fans are so quick to state how implausible a hero is to beating a planet busting opponent with all the 1337 abilities, but sometimes people forget that these characters are also extremely powerful and superhuman too. These heroes are not normal. And while there may be a gulf in power, that gap is filled by the sheer determination, will, experience, and drive a hero has to endure and take down an opponent that is stronger than them. It may sound like a shonen manga/anime cliche, but that's how it is. A hero is gonna rise above their limits and take down someone above them if push comes to shove.
If Cloud can fucking fight Sephiroth balls out with a pierced chest and lung, several deep slashes, a hole in his foot and knee, and severe blood loss, then holy shit, give these heroes credit. Terra's an inhuman magical monster, for one. You don't think if you backed her to the wall, she'd come at you like her life depended on it? Kefka's not the only one who's scary.
"Illusion" makes me think of Mysterio or something -- as though the characters are giving the impression that things are happening like that when they're really not. I'm not sure if we're using the same understanding of the word.
In my mind, the attack just doesn't and couldn't exist. Same with Supernova.
No, the attacks exist. Supernova is referenced several time as being a storyline existing limit break/attack of Sephiroth's. It's also referenced in the storyline exclusive Ultimanias. What I'm saying is that the attack itself is not really annihilating the universe. It's all part of the spell's appearance and casting.
I'm going to use an example from FFX now. Do you remember how when the heroes went to Seymour Guado's mansion the first time, they were able to see, feel and hear old Zanarkand thanks to a sphere Seymour had found? It was broadcasting a totally engrossing image and sound, that had manifested itself like a hologram.
And then when the party went inside Sin, they were able to literally traverse a landscape with water, structures, buildings, stairs, and then even it's own internal city, that then housed a crystalline landscape that finally led to Dream's End where Jecht was. That was all created from spirit energy. Every bit of that landscape and city within that monster...was born from spirit energy. Just like how Dream Zanarkand was made of Spirit Energy.
The whole attack animation and illusion/appearance created by Supernova, is just a manifestation/depiction that's being created by Sephiroth in terms of his magic/spirit energy. The damage it inflicts is real, but the whole animation/casting sequence is just illusion, like something being broadcast out of a sphere, or being conjured up by Spirit Energy. Just like how Jecht inside of Sin was able to create a replica of Zanarkand thanks to using the pyreflies within Sin's insides.
Also, this is what the FFVII Crisis Core Complete Guide says about Summon Monsters.
Summoned Beasts
Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, many of the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack. However, Advent Children’s Bahamut Tremor, was a special summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.
Now do you see how they describe those animations? The creatures are drawing in their targets into their own unique space. It's like a spacial distortion caused by the spirit energy of the summon, that allows them to create this illusionary sequence of them attacking their opponent. Notice how when Knights of the Round's attack finishes, the space where the attack commenced, shattered like a shell putting the target back where they were. Remember in Crisis Core, when Genesis's Copy summoned Ifrit, there was a flash of light, and Zack found himself in a hellish environment with Ifrit staring him in the face? That's how summons, and attacks like Supernova and Satellite Beam work. They're just spiritual energy virtual images that have elaborate casting sequences, but they're all just images and/or spacial distortions. That's how you explain them.
My point was that the story wasn't making use of something from the gameplay so much as the gameplay was making use of something from the story. Granted, it's present in both, but I think you see my point.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
But they're not completely consistent. Black Materia being a perfect example.
It's just on a different scale. It's doing the same thing. Meteor, is Meteor, regardless of if the planetoid is the size of the moon, being used to destroy a planet, or if the meteor is the size of a Chevy and is being used to crush a person. The Materia is the materia used to call forth the spell "Meteor" and there's no reason for it not to be able to serve the same purpose if the person required to cast it has the necessary spirit energy to do so.
I wasn't saying he isn't capable of pulling out the wing -- we know he can. He'd done it before.
Mmmhmm.
Of course it is. I never disagreed with that. All I said is that his EX Burst is the same as that barrage he unleashed in one scene from the story -- but that it's something we know he could do because of that scene.
Ahh, okay.
A good point about Sephiroth. Though, in his case, I don't think he wanted Chaos' side to win anyway.
What do you mean? I'm curious. I've always wondered what Sephiroth's intentions were in Dissidia. I just chalked it up to him being bored, and wanting to focus more on tormenting Cloud, and settling his personal score with him. Although in Shade Impulse, when you fight him with anyone else but Cloud, he states he'll use absorb the powers of Discord and transform himself into a god and rule over every soul within it. Kinda like how he did in FFVII. So what are your thoughts?
But you may well be making a point that could apply to the rest.
Fair enough.
Okay. Glad we're able to find some mutual ground here. XD
He's the only one whose transformation is directly associated with and dependent on a power-up that puts him in a class ridiculously far above the heroes, right?
Even the Emperor's King of Hell form wasn't shown to be so absurd. It may well have been, but we never saw him do the same sort of things.
Also, like we've discussed -- Exdeath could always turn into a tree, Sephiroth can sprout a wing if he feels like it, Ultimecia can junction herself to Griever if she feels like it, and Kuja should be able to Trance on his own by now. Not even really going to bother trying to explain Jecht, but he was never really a Warrior of Chaos to begin with.
Well in Kefka's case, because I see what you mean, I don't think his Light of Judgment/Warring Triad transformation is the same level as it was for FFVI. There plenty of hints to this. For one, if he truly was, the same God of Magic he was in FFVI, he wouldn't really BE in any other form, but that in the first place. He wouldn't need to temporarily tap into that form. He'd BE that form. Because that's his power. He'd always be at maximum strength. I think he may have that power and form, but only to a lesser degree. I
Kuja's new to the cycle according to Garland, and he had no recollection of any previous turns of it. In his first appearance in the story, Ultimecia was telling him the truth about it and Kuja was in disbelief.
I thought maybe Kuja could've at least been in the cycle at least one time, because wouldn't Jecht technically be the newest member of Chaos's team, since he was *just* warrior of Cosmos before, and had only just now been recruited? I thought Jecht was the newest, then after him, Kuja. I think Kuja is new, but not like..brand new, as is Jecht. I don't think the storyline specifically states that Kuja only was present for one cycle as a warrior of Chaos, as it does for Jecht.
And even if that's the case, we don't see every single event that happens in Dissidia. The characters had to do have been doing something when the camera was not focusing on them. Not that hard to fathom or accept that Kuja and Sephiroth may have crossed paths.
For the reason you said: They showcase the personalities of the characters. This is actually a pretty good example of what Laubholz was talking about earlier in that a non-canonical entry in a series could offer insight into a character's personality or be consistent with how they were presented previously.
Obviously Dissidia itself is canon, but some of these conversations are not.
The only ones I'd really consider as not canon are maybe the ones some of the ones between Shantotto and Gabranth, and that's because they don't play a part of the main story. But then again, you could make an argument that maybe the characters met Shantotto in the past. Or whoever died in your game and met Gabranth, had interacted with him.
Another set of convos that probably can't be within the continuity of the story, are the conversations the villains have with Chaos, because when in the story do the villains ever go to End of Madness and fight him? But again..you could make a case that perhaps it happened in the past. Maybe when Chaos first summoned them, the villains put up a fight and had to be beat into submission by Chaos.
I mean, yeah, some of the conversations couldn't have happened in the continuity of the main story, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have existed in
some form otherwise.
That's the thing: The Emperor's death cry is only funny when written out, and in light of its difference from typical death cries known to us, the players.
Eh, I'd argue against that. It sounds fucking hilarious, out loud. I've never, ever heard anyone have such a ridiculous sound when defeated. It's silly written or heard.
Bellowed while someone is choking death out of their lungs, "Uboaaaar!" doesn't really sound humorous or peculiar. No more so than "Aaaargh!" at any rate. It just sounds like somebody dying. It sounds funny to us because we've never seen that anywhere else.
Eh, I dunno man. I think you're kinda looking into that cry a bit too much. I think its pretty funny sounding in Japanese, and english. It sounds the weirdest out of all the death cries of the villains. Kuja's is pretty comical too.
Every character's attacks are showcased, but not every character's attack. Follow me?
Some are, some are not.
But why are we cherry picking like this? If the game's storyline showcases and validates the existence of character specific attacks, then character specific attacks exist in the storyline. It doesn't offer any exception to this rule at all, so why are we assuming one exists?
If I say to a friend of mine who smokes cigarettes, "you can smoke your cigs in my car" then that means...they can smoke their cigs in my car. My friend has no reason to believe I have put in place a stipulation of what type of cigarettes he can smoke. He's free to smoke any kind he pleases.
Now if a character has an attack that radically goes against the internal logic and storyline of the game, then yes, we should look at it as an exception and parse it as it should be. Likewise, if my friend came into my car smoking a crack pipe, I'd boot his ass out of my car.
So why is there a limit on what attacks are to be accepted, and which aren't? How would we determine which ones count, and which ones don't?
I wasn't trying to at all. I was letting the game do it.
I don't think the game is trying to tell us "some attacks are more canon or part of the story" than others. It's just trying to tell us a story. In terms of analysis of what's relevant or not, there's no reason to doubt the attacks being present within the storyline of the game, even if we don't see them. Why doubt Cloud has Cross-Slash within the story, just because it wasn't shown in his DO? If Braver's there, then chances are, so is Cross-Slash.
Well, that, and then it wouldn't technically be a Limit Break if he could. XD
LOL, exactly.
Looking at it side by side, you're right. It is. But I will say, that Cecil never takes that pose and attacks, unless he's using Darkness, which is exclusive to his Ex Burst attack.
That's partly where I find disagreement then, I think -- and, yes, it's coming back to Kefka
-- as I don't consider the Warring Triad power to be inherent to him.
Well okay. I see you're coming from, and I agree to an extent. I was only saying it was inherent to him because the power he drew from them, has only one owner now. Him. The Warring Triad are dead. In FFVI's plot, he inherited the role of "God of Magic" from them, because he was the single existence that held magic together in that world. So he stole that mantle from them, but nonetheless it was his.
But really, it doesn't quite matter in terms of our current discussion, does it?
It's Weaponmaster, yeah. But I'm saying in the story, it's presented as him going into Trance -- he uses it in those kinds of situations.
Ahh, okay. Yeah, it is.
Well, like I said early on in this discussion, I can accept that he can take on that form and be more powerful while doing so -- it is a Limit Break, after all -- but not that he's running around with the power to roast cities whenever he feels like it.
Okay, so can we agree that it's the same power as the Warring Triad as in FFVI..it's just that power at a lesser scale? He's taking on the same appearance and using the same abilities of that form which he gained from that power, but it's not the same level as it was before?
Compared to the Warring Triad, she was nothing. Kefka casually blew Espers away before he got that power.
It's likely that without magicite, the Returners wouldn't have had a chance against him -- Terra included.
Eh, I dunno...a Wind God Gau, and Cyan with the Master's Scroll, Ragnarok, Illumina, and Ultima, which he learned from a Hero's Shield, would definitely give them quite a lot of power.
The examples you provided reference gameplay, though. I also used Google to find the source for the translations -- ffchaoticcosmos on LiveJournal, right? -- and frequent reference is made to the gameplay and how the player will have to/should use the character. For example, with Warrior of Light:
"As orthodox as the original game. He easily handles both offense and defense, and is all-purpose type fighter. Conversely, since he doesn't specialize in anything, you have to be very aware of exactly how to use him in any given situation."
Even alternate costumes are mentioned.
Certainly the characters' personalities were incorporated into their fighting styles, as indicated by these translations, but the profiles themselves don't seem to shy away from combining story elements and gameplay-only elements -- even in a breaking of the 4th wall by referring to how the player should use the character -- into the same profile.
That's true, but the fact that they reference the character's transformations and abilities that were part of their original story, as being apart of Dissidia's story now, and not
just talking about it in terms of gameplay, is pretty telling. And again, while the profile is just giving you a brief explanation as to how the Ex Mode works in gameplay, it's not a gameplay guide. It's giving an introduction to the whole story and characters. Why would they completely remove the gameplay element and explanation of the characters, when the characters will always be game characters? We're looking at what they include in terms of the story and references to their past story. They'll always reference or mention gameplay. That's a given. If the Ex Modes weren't to have any story significance or importance to the plot, then they wouldn't have been explained or examined in terms of their placement in their past stories.
Isn't that true of a lot of things in Dissidia?
Not in the actual plot. Not everything is an easter egg that only exists as a shout out to the past of the series. Like..Cloud's PSX cover pose existing on a calendar in his office in AC, or Aerith's face being used as the model for a Loveless billboard in Edge. No, not everything in Dissidia is an easter egg exclusively.
I'd equate Bartz's Ex Burst screen shatter taking the shape of chocobo tracks, and hearing the cry of a chocobo, as that type of Easter Egg. It's no different to what was thrown into AC.
Interesting observation. And I suppose it's hard to argue with "A wizard/Chaos did it" when so much else is plausibly explained within the story by the same concept.
Pretty much. That's my point.
True. That would be a good reason for Chaos not to allow her to have that power.
Mmhmm.
I also gave you Kuja!
<--(first time I've used that)
If you're saying that even when he reaches Trance, he's still not as powerful as he was while in that form in FFVI, then we've got no disagreement. I can let it go at that.
Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying.
Earlier in the thread I was a bit too quick to just accept Kefka's Ex form and ability with the Light of Judgment at face value, and I didn't think it out quickly. But yes, I agree with you now, and that makes perfect sense. I think it's the same power, and the same form, but its not the same power as he was back in FFVI when he was using the light to carve out pieces of the earth and leave craters behind. I see your point. See? These discussions can help both of us see things different
My only beef was with him being able to tap into that supreme power at all. If he can't do so, and can only use Light of Judgment once in a good, long while -- even while in that form -- rather whenever he feels like it, then we're good.
Fair enough. I can accept "Chaos did it."
LOL so can I
Well, Deathbringer goes away in the original story -- and may have become the Mythgraven Blade. As for Boko, we'll he's obvious.
Does it? I still have mine I believe XD
I never got rid of it. I just put it in the Fat Chocobo and left it there. It's possible Cecil held onto his or stored it away.
It doesn't, but the story should always be the final word in my opinion.
Oh I agree, it should have the final word. But I just think in terms of analysis or whatever, one shouldn't be so quick to just rule out gameplay as being non-applicable. One thing I've noticed in my experience in reading the creator commentary and how they make the game...they don't think like that at all. They see their work as a total package that works together. The story is expressed and told through gameplay and while there may be inconsistencies, they can also go hand in hand and help convey the narrative.
I thought we were still talking about the opening. Though I still don't feel like he ever had it in the story of FFVIII either. XD
No, I concede that it wasn't there in the opening. But may I ask why you don't think Squall ever got the Lionheart in FFVIII?
That makes sense. As long as we're both saying what I think we are -- that Kefka can take on his angelic form, but doesn't actually have the ridiculus amount of power he had when he was previously in that form -- then I think there's no further disagreement at work on that particular matter.
Of course that's what it is. I was just being a pain in the ass. XD
LOL oh okay
