So is Sephiroth the strongest dude in FF7 or what

[Lord Noctis]

Sephiroth's a bully. He stole a guy's rose, for Christ's sake. That's something to be proud of?!

Zack I'll give him credit for. Ifrit however was never really that powerful of a summon compared to the likes of Bahamut or Alexander. And what the hell is Tseng gonna do? Stalk you to death?

The butchering of the Midgar Zolom however still sends chills down my back. And in Before Crisis, we see Sephiroth having massacred some innocent Behemoth before being called in to Junon to supress AVALANCHE.

And Zack didn't freeze time, dude. That was all in Cloud's head. That all happened in real time in Cloud's white space, which is his heart.

Then how come he wasn't back on his hands and knees when the fight resumed? If it was all internal, then how come getting to his feet during that chat resulte din him being on his feet in reality? That makes no damn sense.

Now that bit about Tseng, I'll give you, but the reason his defeating Ifrit is so impressive is because he did it with ONE FUCKING SWING OF HIS SWORD!

And to MOG. True, but Firion is still pretty strong, and highly skilled. Sephiroth gets points for beating him, just not as many points as he would get for someone like Zack, for example.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Then how come he wasn't back on his hands and knees when the fight resumed? If it was all internal, then how come getting to his feet during that chat resulte din him being on his feet in reality? That makes no damn sense.

1. It's a movie.

2. We can assume that he got back on his hands and knees in whatever time it took (one or two seconds) for the thought in his head to transpire.

 

[Lord Noctis]

1. It's a movie.

2. We can assume that he got back on his hands and knees in whatever time it took (one or two seconds) for the thought in his head to transpire.

1.No shit.

2.Then we still should have seen it happen, just in a really big hurry, but we don't. We see him already standing.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

2.Then we still should have seen it happen, just in a really big hurry, but we don't. We see him already standing.

Refer to point number one:

1. It's a movie.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Refer to point number one:

1. It's a movie.

Your point? It still makes no sense. Actually, why would Cloud be on his hands and knees in his mind? Its not like Sephiroth is beating on his mind. Seriously, give me something better than "Its a movie" and maybe I'll buy it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Alright, how about this.

I am a big movie buff. I have probably spent like a third of my life watching movies. And trust me, there are far, far far more hiccups in even the most famous, well acclaimed movies than the one we're discussing.

But it's generally understood between the writers, directors, and fans that even amongst that, there is a general rule that as long as the point the creator was trying to get across actually gets across to the fans, it's as simple as this: "Don't think about it too much". In the entertainment and creative industry, human error is going to happen in storytelling, and continually breaking it apart and nitpicking every single little thing is going to give you a stroke and generally make you miss the bigger picture of the original message. Video game fans in particular need to realize this. Movie buffs are way ahead of you in this regard.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Alright, how about this.

I am a big movie buff. I have probably spent like a third of my life watching movies. And trust me, there are far, far far more hiccups in even the most famous, well acclaimed movies than the one we're discussing.

But it's generally understood between the writers, directors, and fans that even amongst that, there is a general rule that as long as the point the creator was trying to get across actually gets across to the fans, it's as simple as this: "Don't think about it too much". In the entertainment and creative industry, human error is going to happen in storytelling, and continually breaking it apart and nitpicking every single little thing is going to give you a stroke and generally make you miss the bigger picture of the original message. Video game fans in particular need to realize this. Movie buffs are way ahead of you in this regard.

I noticed it while whatching the movie the first time. Besides, all you basicly did was restate point 1 in a more complex way.

But even supposing it was all in Cloud's mind, it still contributed to Cloud's victory, and it is very possible that he would have lost without it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yes I did reinstate number one in a complex way. My point about 'its a movie' has not been retracted.

Actually, why would Cloud be on his hands and knees in his mind? Its not like Sephiroth is beating on his mind.

Feeling like you're about to die can generally make you feel like shit. Being represented in a physically weak posture in your head because of a beatdown outside your head isn't new to ACC.

But even supposing it was all in Cloud's mind, it still contributed to Cloud's victory, and it is very possible that he would have lost without it.

No one is denying that. That's like saying that Mike Tyson gets visions of Jack Dempsey in his head during big time matches, and without them, he might lose. So what? He still wins. Having a morale boost doesn't take away from that persons actual skill.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Yes I did reinstate number one in a complex way. My point about 'its a movie' has not been retracted.



Feeling like you're about to die can generally make you feel like shit. Being represented in a physically weak posture in your head because of a beatdown outside your head isn't new to ACC.



No one is denying that. That's like saying that Mike Tyson gets visions of Jack Dempsey in his head during big time matches, and without them, he might lose. So what? He still wins. Having a morale boost doesn't take away from that persons actual skill.

I'm not saying it detracts from Cloud's skill, but it did contribute to his victory, which might have lost without it. Therefore, I feel that that victory should only give Cloud half a point.

So, unless my math bites ass, the score stands thus:

Sephiroth-0

Cloud-3

Just to clarify, at the end of the game Cloud had a bunch of people helping him, so I detracted a point for that. I also detracted half a point from the one-on-one in FFVII due to it being a symbolic battle, and therefore irrelevant to physical strength or skill.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

How does that make any sense at all?

By that logic you should detract points for Cloud not fighting barehanded. He might have lost if it wasn't for his sword, you know! Detract a point!

 

[Lord Noctis]

How does that make any sense at all?

By that logic you should detract points for Cloud not fighting barehanded. He might have lost if it wasn't for his sword, you know! Detract a point!

Except the same could be said for Sephiroth, so I'd have to detract a point from both. But if you insist.

Cloud-2

Sephiroth-negative 1

EDIT:I also think that the anwser to the whole Cloud vs. Sephiroth debate is kinda obvious. I think Dacon said it at one point. Sephiroth is stronger, but Cloud is more skilled.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Also detract some points for both of them not being naked. Cloud might not have won if it wasn't for protective gear.

Also subtract some points for

Cloud getting enough sleep
Being skilled in fighting to any degree
His Jenova/Mako enhancements
Having two arms
Not suffering from botulism

He might not have won if it wasn't for any of those!

 

[Lord Noctis]

Also detract some points for both of them not being naked. Cloud might not have won if it wasn't for protective gear.

Also subtract some points for

Cloud getting enough sleep
Being skilled in fighting to any degree
His Jenova/Mako enhancements
Having two arms
Not suffering from botulism

He might not have won if it wasn't for any of those!

Same applies to Sephiroth, so he loses points as well.

Cloud-Negative 4

Sephiroth-Negative 7

Anything else? Oh yes, I should detract points for being born, he might not have won without that.

Cloud-Negative 5

Sephiroth-Negative 8

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is why Notorious M.O.G. is notorious. Fucking awesome.

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but how about we just not nitpick and keep the points as real numbers?

 

[Lord Noctis]

This is why Notorious M.O.G. is notorious. Fucking awesome.

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but how about we just not nitpick and keep the points as real numbers?

Awesome indeed, I can't believe I missed all those things!

But seriously:

Cloud-3

Sephiroth-0

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Awesome indeed, I can't believe I missed all those things!

But seriously:

Cloud-3

Sephiroth-0

Cloud - 7

He killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim, he impaled him through the stomach and then not only survived being stabbed in the chest by the Masamune, but then used it to chuck Sephy to his doom. Also keep in mind that this was before he became a Mako experiment and was a relatively ordinary guy. +1

He and his allies beat Safer Sephiroth, then one-on-one he proved his mental defenses were too strong for Sephiroth to penetrate. For all this talk about his mighty will, Sephiroth's will wasn't strong enough to overpower Cloud. +1

He killed Sephiroth one-on-one again in AC/C. +1

He faces Sephiroth twice in the KH series. These fights are inconclusive, but he clearly can hold his own against Sephiroth. And Cloud is stronger than Sora, who is able to defeat Sephiroth, and yeah Sephy didn't use his full strength, good for him, he still lost and admitted Sora was strong. Just follow the chain of logic - Cloud > Sora > Sephiroth. +2, 1 for each game.

Dissidia, Cloud faces Sephiroth and wins, +1. Because the cutscenes change when you do so, I consider all the villains in Shade Impulse beaten by their respective hero, I'm not picking on Sephy in that aspect, I consider him beaten by Cloud again in Shade Impulse. +1.

Should we count all the other defeats Sephiroth's been handed? Elfe and Genesis don't beat him, but can spar with him competently. Zack can too, to a greater extent, he does well against Sephy for a while in CC. Sora beats him twice, Warrior of Light beats him....and don't tell me KH and Dissidia don't count. Sephiroth goes one on one with an opponent and loses, it counts. You can't pick and choose which fights you want to count.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Cloud - 7

He killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim, he impaled him through the stomach and then not only survived being stabbed in the chest by the Masamune, but then used it to chuck Sephy to his doom. Also keep in mind that this was before he became a Mako experiment and was a relatively ordinary guy. +1

He and his allies beat Safer Sephiroth, then one-on-one he proved his mental defenses were too strong for Sephiroth to penetrate. For all this talk about his mighty will, Sephiroth's will wasn't strong enough to overpower Cloud. +1

He killed Sephiroth one-on-one again in AC/C. +1

He faces Sephiroth twice in the KH series. These fights are inconclusive, but he clearly can hold his own against Sephiroth. And Cloud is stronger than Sora, who is able to defeat Sephiroth, and yeah Sephy didn't use his full strength, good for him, he still lost and admitted Sora was strong. Just follow the chain of logic - Cloud > Sora > Sephiroth. +2, 1 for each game.

Dissidia, Cloud faces Sephiroth and wins, +1. Because the cutscenes change when you do so, I consider all the villains in Shade Impulse beaten by their respective hero, I'm not picking on Sephy in that aspect, I consider him beaten by Cloud again in Shade Impulse. +1.

Should we count all the other defeats Sephiroth's been handed? Elfe and Genesis don't beat him, but can spar with him competently. Zack can too, to a greater extent, he does well against Sephy for a while in CC. Sora beats him twice, Warrior of Light beats him....and don't tell me KH and Dissidia don't count. Sephiroth goes one on one with an opponent and loses, it counts. You can't pick and choose which fights you want to count.

Neither KH counts, they are not FFVII, they aren't FF at all. I never discounted Dissidia.

Cloud only has three for a number of reasons. For one, the group fight in FFVII doesn't count cause he was outnumbered 8 to 1. The ono on one after that only counts for half a point due to the fact that actual physical power has little, if anything to do with it. The fight in ACC only counts for half a point due to Zack's interference.



End score:

Cloud-3

Sephiroth-0

And no, WOL does not beat Sephiroth, it was more of a draw.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Cloud only has three for a number of reasons. For one, the group fight in FFVII doesn't count cause he was outnumbered 8 to 1. The ono on one after that only counts for half a point due to the fact that actual physical power has little, if anything to do with it. The fight in ACC only counts for half a point due to Zack's interference.

And no, WOL does not beat Sephiroth, it was more of a draw.

The mental battle was a battle of wills, Cloud won. A win is a win. AC/C, in the original AC he won without Zack. As I believe Mako said, Zack did not interfere, it was a split-second scene in Cloud's head. Like when Aerith contacted him, when he was sent back he was still riding his bike.

And WoL beat Sephiroth, they fight, he wins, it's that simple. He just doesn't kill him.

 

[Lord Noctis]

The mental battle was a battle of wills, Cloud won. A win is a win. AC/C, in the original AC he won without Zack. As I believe Mako said, Zack did not interfere, it was a split-second scene in Cloud's head. Like when Aerith contacted him, when he was sent back he was still riding his bike.

And WoL beat Sephiroth, they fight, he wins, it's that simple. He just doesn't kill him.

No, Sephiroth left in order to "Fulfill my obligation to him," as he put it.

BTW, AC does not count, ACC overrides it, and Zack did so interfere. Whether it was only a couple seconds or not, he did talk to Cloud and did give him the confidence he needed to win. Minus half a point.

The metaphysical battle in FFVII was symbolic of Sephiroth trying to control Cloud, and Cloud being able to resist that control. Cloud didn't overpower him, he simply was to strong to be controlled. Besides, actual physical strength does not come into play in a symbolic fight like that, and Sephiroth's will probably wasn't at his best considering he just got torn apart by 8 people. Minus half a point.

Cloud-3

Sephiroth-0

 

[Kai Schulen]

BTW, AC does not count, ACC overrides it, and Zack did so interfere. Whether it was only a couple seconds or not, he did talk to Cloud and did give him the confidence he needed to win. Minus half a point.

.........How is Zack encouraging Cloud to keep on fighting and not give up "interfering"? That's like saying spectators at a sports game are not allowed to cheer for their favorite teams because it's "interfering" or that any team that has cheerleaders are immediately disqualified.

Geez, you make it sound like Zack was going to take a corporeal form, sneak up on Sephiroth on his hands and knees and get Cloud to knock Sephiroth over Zack and have him fall off tower or something equally juvenile. >>;

 

[Lord Noctis]

.........How is Zack encouraging Cloud to keep on fighting and not give up "interfering"? That's like saying spectators at a sports game are not allowed to cheer for their favorite teams because it's "interfering"!

Geez, you make it sound like Zack was going to take a corporeal form, sneak up on Sephiroth on his hands and knees and get Cloud to knock Sephiroth over Zack and have him fall off tower or something equally juvenile.

I do not make it seem like that at all. Zack encouraging Cloud to keep fighting and not give up is interfering because if he didn't Cloud may very well have given in to a combination of fatigue, and his severe injuries. Zack's speech reminded Cloud he wasn't alone.

And you can't really compare it to spectators cheering for their teams for two reasons, both teams in sport ussually have fans yeling their heads off like drunken idiots, which is more of a distraction tbh, and the speech Zack gave to Cloud wasn't just a bunch of hollering and whistling, but a personal and meaningful pep-talk from Cloud's best friend. There is a difference.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

The metaphysical battle in FFVII was symbolic of Sephiroth trying to control Cloud, and Cloud being able to resist that control. Cloud didn't overpower him, he simply was to strong to be controlled.

Sephiroth attacked, Cloud won. In OTWTAS, Sephiroth himself says "Cloud sent me into the Lifestream twice". The man himself says Cloud beat him.

Besides, actual physical strength does not come into play in a symbolic fight like that

A fight is a fight. Physical strength is not the only measure of power.

and Sephiroth's will probably wasn't at his best considering he just got torn apart by 8 people. Minus half a point.

And yet he has the willpower to start spreading Geostigma like, right after Meteorfall. And yes, right after, Case of Denzel shows Geostigma is already occurring in people right after Midgar's destruction. Sephiroth worked fast.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

And you can't really compare it to spectators cheering for their teams for two reasons, both teams in sport ussually have fans yeling their heads off like drunken idiots, which is more of a distraction tbh, and the speech Zack gave to Cloud wasn't just a bunch of hollering and whistling, but a personal and meaningful pep-talk from Cloud's best friend. There is a difference.

Exhibit A, someone who has never participated in a sporting event in his life.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Exhibit A, someone who has never participated in a sporting event in his life.

I have actually. Maybe its just me, but having people shouting at me tends to break my concentration, which cost me a point.

As for you Drake. I know Cloud sent Sephiroth back into the lifestream there, thats why I didn't remove a full point.

You can argue the point all you like, my scoreboard ain't changin'. Agree to disagree? Please?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

My point being is that decades of different sporting events and athletes will tell you that fans cheering for them has an extremely powerful role in team morale and performance. Hell, even in stuff like high school football games, having your mom or your girlfriend there cheering for you in the stands is enough to overcome a hell of a lot. So are you telling me none of that counts?

Hell, how doesn't it count? I really don't understand this.