So is Sephiroth the strongest dude in FF7 or what

[ForceStealer]

Here's an image of one of the storage rooms and stuff you can see, when you're in the "Bare" job class.

You can see several weapons, and some of the outfits, such as the Mascot one, and some other outfits there to the right. There was another I had but I'm not at home now and it's on my computer. But here you go.

That's pretty cool, I don't think I've ever seen that before.
Though seeing Yuna in her underwear would have more of an impact if it weren't for the fact that her Gunner 'shorts' might actually be more revealing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well I'm glad we were able to see eye-to-eye regarding the whole Ex Mode thing. XD Our discussion yielded results, which is cool ^^

I'm also glad of that. As well as that our posts are now getting shorter. XD

But Sephiroth is able to use and control it thanks to his immense spiritual energy. So it's not really that improbable or hard to believe that he'd be able to fully utilize it in any manner he sees fit.

Just confuses me that Aerith couldn't use it at all if grabbing smaller meteors were an intended function of the materia. It's supposed to do something specific, right?

Or if that explanation doesn't work for you, again. Chaos perhaps altered it, when he bestowed it on Sephiroth. Whichever works.

I really don't want to go that route except as a last resort.

It's specifically mentioned in Sephiroth's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile as his unique limit break too.

I guess it does. I'd always felt like that section was just there because it seemed like the best place to put it.

But given the references to spiritual energy used in the attacks in Tifa and Yuffie's profiles, it may well be that they are to be taken as canon. Which makes the lack of Catastrophe in any new titles simply inexcusable.

I concede the matter of Super Nova to you, as well as the explanation for its theatrical side.

Still not Satellite Beam, though.

And the CC Complete Guide's Keyword Collection doesn't treat it as anymore of a gameplay mechanic, as it does Omnislash.

Well, Omnislash had appeared in FFVII's story -- plus, the CC CG's KC refers specifically to the final battle of the original game and says that Cloud used Omnislash to defeat Seph there.

In CC's game proper, the Sephiroth fanclub states that its Sephiroth's unique limit break as well. It's referenced and spoken of several times as existing within the story, so its pretty hard to ignore.

I took the fanclub's questions as a gameplay mechanic -- after all, one of the responses you can pick when the question about Super Nova comes up is "Omnislash."

It also seems unlikely that Seph would have been using Super Nova back then. But still, you make a valid enough point with the 10th AU profile for Seph.

We don't actually see a satellite. We only see gimmicky target cursor's surround the opponent, and then they get blasted by a beam of energy. It's not that hard to believe at all, that Barret is capable of firing a beam of spirit energy from his gun arm.

It isn't, as we've seen him do it. The attack animation doesn't involve him firing it from his arm, though. It literally just comes out of the sky.

Plus, the targeting reticles indicate that something is locking on from the sky. I really don't see how -- or why we should bother XD -- to incorporate Satellite Beam.

I'll take Super Nova, but not this one. Don't get greedy!

I don't think he led crystal to Cloud per se, because if that were the case, Cloud's will and determination to find it and keep fighting wouldn't have manifested it.

Not necessarily. Golbez definitely set out to lead Cecil to his.

Plus, Seph did say he'd led Cloud to it.

But yeah, I see what you mean. Sephiroth's intent to want to settle things with Cloud, and go back to Gaia, were essentially his goals and he was willing to fight Cloud for that reason.

Yes, another point of agreement!

That's very true. But don't forget however in Shade Impulse, Sephiroth didn't have to fight Cloud at all, because they were on their way to end Chaos's live and do what you supposedly says he wanted. Why would he stand in Cloud's opposition a second time, when Cloud got the crystal as he wanted?

In SI I think he just wanted to fuck with Cloud. XD Plus, given the note he left on, he no doubt wanted to leave that seed of doubt in Cloud's head for his resurrection.

Sephiroth also wanted to fight Cloud too and settle things. But do agree that he also wanted Chaos to fall so that he would no longer be chained to him, and allowed to be his own villain, like he originally was

Great!

I think so too. But I do think he wanted to take down Cloud, because again...that's what he lives for. And he wouldn't have stood in Cloud's way if that weren't the case. The guy has a clear hard on for trying to kill him.

Nah, I really feel like he wanted to let Cloud live through the final battle with Chaos. After all, he was counting on needing Cloud for his resurrection to be complete.

Well they may not have fought, but they more than likely interacted on some level or spoke. They were in the Chaos Shrine together before, after all. Who knows what may have happened once Emperor Mateus was done blabbing on about his plan.

Agreed.

I dunno, considering how much Garland loves a good fight, maybe he felt like trying to knock himself down when he first saw him.

That would be funny.

I dunno, Tidus has a pretty good sense of humor, as seen in FFX. And I don't think its hard to believe Firion and Tidus would have a humorous dialogue regarding their own adventures. I mean there are tons of ways it could've played out. He's not the most serious character among the heroes.

True that. I just don't see the death cry as a big deal, but that's me.

LOL so the Black Materia's the crack pipe?

It might be.

How come? Again. Sephiroth has tons of spirit energy necessary to control it, and even when we see him use it, you can tell it takes intense concentration and focus, as Sephiroth's spirit energy within his own body surges and flares up to power the materia to work. And considering he's using it to perform a Meteor attack that's not on the same scope or power as the one that was seen in FFVII, he wouldn't need to use the spirit energy of the planet to cast it. His own well of power would be enough to pull out the magic and wisdom of Cetra to use it. Notice how depending on how much spirit energy you use to charge and cast the spell, the size and impact of the Meteor is effected. That clearly demonstrates that the casting and power of the Meteor can be altered depending on how much control and energy is put into the materia. If one's spirit energy is strong enough, and large enough to use it, they can make it its master.

Fine, fine. You make a good argument. I guess I have to concede to you on this too.

I still want to know why Aerith couldn't use the Black Materia even a little, though.

I don't see why Squall would not customize his gunblade at all, especially when we see him with this weapon in almost every depiction of him. And he even collects the Weapon Monthly magazines that speak of how to customize his gunblade in the first place. You can find some in his dorm room, even.

True.

Exactly, so that's why he'd have the ability to transform his Lionheart when necessary, and in FFVIII, that's why he collects Weapons Monthly. It's not just either/or...the gunblade can be transformed into it.

Maybe so. There sure aren't Junk Shops in Dissidia's world. XD

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I think we're mostly in agreement now, and the fruit of our agreement has finally been published on the front page.

Yeah, I won't be greedy...Satellite Cannon isn't that good of a limit break anyways

And to bring this thread back a bit more towards the specific subject of Sephiroth in FFVII:

I took the fanclub's questions as a gameplay mechanic -- after all, one of the responses you can pick when the question about Super Nova comes up is "Omnislash."

I wouldn't say the questions are gameplay mechanics at all: its the incorrect answers that you can have Zack say, that obviously make no sense regarding the plot, that are gameplay mechanics. The Silver Elite fanclub exists. They're part of the plot. And part of their existence is them quizzing new recruits into their fanclub. The questions make perfect sense, and Zack knowing the answers (since he's a fellow SOLDIER 1st Class) is what the plot wants you to do. Just like the plot wants Zack to be the one to give Seventh Heaven its iconic name.

None of the wrong choices make any sense because they are a gameplay mechanic to make sure you know your facts. It's the actual correct answers that are part of the storyline, and intended by the creators.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well I think we're mostly in agreement now, and the fruit of our agreement has finally been published on the front page.

"And there was much rejoicing."

I wouldn't say the questions are gameplay mechanics at all: its the incorrect answers that you can have Zack say, that obviously make no sense regarding the plot, that are gameplay mechanics. The Silver Elite fanclub exists. They're part of the plot. And part of their existence is them quizzing new recruits into their fanclub. The questions make perfect sense, and Zack knowing the answers (since he's a fellow SOLDIER 1st Class) is what the plot wants you to do. Just like the plot wants Zack to be the one to give Seventh Heaven its iconic name.

None of the wrong choices make any sense because they are a gameplay mechanic to make sure you know your facts. It's the actual correct answers that are part of the storyline, and intended by the creators.

Oh, I definitely thought that the fan clubs themselves were real, but wondered about the questions involved.

In any event, you make a good point. I guess it's like the Forest Owls question in FFVIII -- you can say "But the chocobos are still around," but the plot called for "But the owls are still around."

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Hey folks, first post for me here. I wanted to point something out about Satellite Beam: Real or not, it cannot actually be fired from a satellite. What evidence do I provide? Shinra's space program is underfunded crap. If they didn't even get Shinra 26 into space until the Meteor crisis, then clearly they haven't gotten an orbital attack sattelite up there. Though if Palmer didn't have so much lard in his brain, he might have gotten better funding by mentioning the possibility to Rufus and Scarlet.

 

[Username]

Sephiroth was the strongest dude, Cait sith was the strongest lady, always remember that.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

About the matter of Super Nova:

Isn't it easy to accept Sephiroth having Super Nova way back then if we assume that it probably didn't look like it does when Safer Sephiroth uses it against the party in FFVII? Especially consider Dissidia depicts it as just really a giant blast of energy, I think it's a valid conclusion to draw that while Sephiroth was human, Super Nova was "little more" than how it looks in Dissidia, a giant energy blast.

Once he ascended to near godhood in FFVII, the attack 'evolved' to the illusionary planet buster we all know and love.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Great to know one of the first things he did when he shoved wings up his ass and lost his legs, was increase the pyrotechnics of his limit break. Good to know where his priorities lie.

 

[Tennyo]

Hey man, that's the first thing I would do.

 

[ForceStealer]

Me too. What fun is just giving everyone an aneurysm?

 

[Kelranox]

The strongest -person- in VII? Sure.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Great to know one of the first things he did when he shoved wings up his ass and lost his legs, was increase the pyrotechnics of his limit break. Good to know where his priorities lie.

This is why he loses wars.

 

[eqmddlh]

Sephirot became the second best

For sure that Sephirot was, at least for a time, the Strongest warrior in a lot of aptitudes. But nothing stands for a hundred of years and he was defeated by Cloud and he did so when Seph was in the peak of his power, positioning the Nibbelheim guy on the first place at least for respectful period after his victory.

Best regards.

 

[EX_SOLDIER]

Once again I feel the urge to state my views on this. Sephiroth was or still could be the strongest. Seeing as how Vincent defeated teh Tsviets or whatever, they can't be stronger than Sephiroth. Also, the reason that Cloud could beat him the first time was due to that sneak attack and pure adrenaline. All things afterwards could be speculated. Like, how cloud was meant to be a sephiroth clone and supposedly failed. He gained power no doubt and that could have been his greatest asset. Also, the fact that sephiroth is too cocky and let his guard down is another explanation. In my opinion he is the strongest or at least equal to Cloud.

 

[doramider7]

That would be good. Maybe 4 or 5 Omega Weapons would be good enough.

Yeah FF7 already has one of these. It's called Cloud and has roundly curbstomped the shit out of Sephiroth.

4 or 5 Omega Weapons my ass.

 

[Mitch Connor]

Once again I feel the urge to state my views on this. Sephiroth was or still could be the strongest. Seeing as how Vincent defeated teh Tsviets or whatever, they can't be stronger than Sephiroth. Also, the reason that Cloud could beat him the first time was due to that sneak attack and pure adrenaline. All things afterwards could be speculated. Like, how cloud was meant to be a sephiroth clone and supposedly failed. He gained power no doubt and that could have been his greatest asset. Also, the fact that sephiroth is too cocky and let his guard down is another explanation. In my opinion he is the strongest or at least equal to Cloud.

Over the years I've been in many a debate regarding Cloud and Sephiroth relative to each other, and I would always concede Sephiroth was the greater warrior and was just a huge fucking idiot. But AC Complete really changed that for me. Sephiroth is probably going to be the strongest in terms of pure power and abilities, but we really cant say hes the best warrior. Twice now he had his biggest threat skewered on the end of his sword clinging to life and twice now he was the one that ended up dead.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's obvious from Seph's behavior that he wasn't going for a killing blow there, though. He didn't intend for that impalement to kill Cloud.

He skewered him, then gloated, then jacked him up further, then gloated again and finally went in for the kill.

Seph would have won if he'd taken Cloud's head off or put the sword through his face. He chose not to, though.

It's still Seph's arrogance that cost him the win in AC/ACC. Always was.

 

[Makoeyes987]

STOP MAKING ME WANT TO KILL YOU TRES!!

HE IMPALED HIS CHEST THREE TIMES! WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT OTHER THAN A DECAPITATION?!?!

 

[Max Payne]

He skewered him, then gloated, then jacked him up further, then gloated again and finally went in for the kill.

Every single one of those wounds was enough to kill a person. Even the little jabs, which very likely hit a few arteries given the excessive blood loss.

By all rights Cloud shouldn't have been able to move, much less exercise that much strength.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

It's obvious from Seph's behavior that he wasn't going for a killing blow there, though. He didn't intend for that impalement to kill Cloud.

He skewered him, then gloated, then jacked him up further, then gloated again and finally went in for the kill.

That's like saying that Cloud impaling Sephiroth into Jenova's tank with the Buster Sword wasn't going for a killing blow, because he had a chat with him after he stabbed him. (nevermind the fact that the Buster Sword is wider than Seph's torso in CC), or that Sephiroth wasn't going for a killing blow when he stabbed Cloud the first time in the Reactor. Cloud's just CRAZY invincible about people stickin' swords through his torso.

Seph would have won if he'd taken Cloud's head off or put the sword through his face. He chose not to didn't, though.

It's still Seph's arrogance that cost him the win in AC/ACC. Always was.

You impale TORSOS with stabs, not FACES, because they're easier to hit, and Cloud seems to be great at blocking/dodging slashing attacks from masamune. Cloud's inner strength and motivation far exceeds Sephiroth's. Sephiroth wants to crush his spirit AND kill him, so he's not just acting like a dick for no reason, it's part of his character, and his demeanor hides how much effort he's putting into his attacks, whereas Cloud is ALWAYS visibly affected by EVERYTHING. His arrogance didn't cost him. It IS him. It's like saying that Cloud's love of his friends made him win. It's not just about Physical/Magical strength, Character strength makes a huge difference.

Sephiroth is a monstrosity of magical abilities and manipulating his Jenova-granted abilities, but Cloud manages to survive Sephiroth dropping the debris from the top of the ShinRa building at him, which - with nothing but a big fucking multi-sword goes to show that he's pretty crazy strong. Cloud didn't just get lucky in ACC, he beat Sephiroth because of who Sephiroth is, and who HE is.


X

 

[Kobato]

No. Sephiroth is not the strongest. Sephiroth only seems like the strongest character because SE fan-wanks him as much as the fanboys do.

 

[Max Payne]

No. Sephiroth is not the strongest. Sephiroth only seems like the strongest character because SE fan-wanks him as much as the fanboys do.

Aren't those the same people?

 

[Kobato]

Aren't those the same people?

So every Sephiroth fanboy works for SE ? No wonder FF XIII was so shit.

 

[Max Payne]

Who would be bigger fans of a character than the people who whore him out the most?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

STOP MAKING ME WANT TO KILL YOU TRES!!

HE IMPALED HIS CHEST THREE TIMES! WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT OTHER THAN A DECAPITATION?!?!

What more do you need? Seph saying, "Get up, Cloud. I want you on your feet when you die"? Maybe even, "Next time I see you, you're dead"?

Every single one of those wounds was enough to kill a person. Even the little jabs, which very likely hit a few arteries given the excessive blood loss.

Enough to kill a person, sure, but most wouldn't kill them instantly, which is exactly what I'm talking about. Cloud especially wouldn't die from those wounds instantly, and it's not like Seph doesn't know that.

For that matter, if Seph was going for a kill shot with each of those attacks, you think he wouldn't finally go "What the flying fuck?!" and just take the dude's head off -- instead of floating in the air above him for like 20 seconds while taunting him?

That's like saying that Cloud impaling Sephiroth into Jenova's tank with the Buster Sword wasn't going for a killing blow, because he had a chat with him after he stabbed him.

When Cloud stabbed him there, he hadn't been planning that for years. Seph had been in AC/C. In AC/C, Seph wasn't so emotionally torn up that he couldn't speak without his voice cracking. Cloud was back in Nibelheim.

There's absolutely no comparison between Seph and Cloud in those situations other than the fact of stabbing someone else, so it's not like that at all.

or that Sephiroth wasn't going for a killing blow when he stabbed Cloud the first time in the Reactor.

Again, no comparison. Seph had no reason to believe Cloud wouldn't go unconscious immediately from the shock and blood loss, like any other person he'd stabbed up to that point.

When fighting him in ACC, when the dude is seriously enhanced, he has every reason to believe he would survive for at least a moment after the impalement. Sephiroth deliberately chose that attack because of the fact that he had stabbed him like that before.

He even references the stab from Nibelheim! He asks Cloud if he recalls the pain. He had no intention of that attack killing Cloud instantly.

For that matter, while discussing the fact that Sephiroth kept talking, let's look at the course of the things Seph says to him: "I've thought of a wonderful gift for you" through "Shall I give you despair?" and on through "Do you remember this pain, Cloud?" up to "Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away?"

This is one complete thought. Killing Cloud before that last sentence was uttered would have been the taunting equivalent of a sentence fragment.

Are other villains watching this from the afterlife (because DBZ taught us that older, defeated villains always watch these spectacles ) going to be like, "Oh, snap, did you see how Seph said 'I've thought of a wonderful gift for you' and then took that bitch's head off"?

How about, "Daaaamn, Cloud, 'Do you remember this pain?' and then you're fucking dead! You got schooled, son!"

I mean, really. This is the villain who plotted to make Cloud kill one of his friends, then killed her in front of him while he was helpless to do anything about it, and even handed over the key to his master plan twice just so that he could force Cloud to give it back to him.

Is this torture conoisseur going to blow a simple taunt that he's been waiting two years to deliver?

I may not be on Seph's dick like some people, but I give him more credit than that.

You impale TORSOS with stabs, not FACES, because they're easier to hit, and Cloud seems to be great at blocking/dodging slashing attacks from masamune.

When he was up in the air getting sliced to ribbons, he was Seph's plaything. He could have stabbed him anywhere he wanted.

And if not then, he could have done so after throwing him to the ground. Instead, he took his sweet time and taunted him.

Sephiroth was not desperate to win that fight at all. He wasn't scared in the slightest. It was not a serious "Oh shit, can I do this?"-matter for him.

Sephiroth wants to crush his spirit AND kill him, so he's not just acting like a dick for no reason ...

That's exactly my point: If Seph was less concerned about crushing Cloud's spirit and more concerned about surviving, he would have won. That's the approach Cloud took to the battle and that's why Cloud won -- when he got openings, he took them for all that they were worth.

Did he slash Seph once after separating his combined Fusion Swords, or did he act like somebody who just wanted to win? He cut him over and over and over and over, with attacks that would have bisected him each time if not for his unique physiology.

It was an onslaught at least as brutal as Seph's, and far beyond what any other living thing should have been able to survive even momentarily -- including Cloud himself. If you bisect Cloud do you think he's going to come back from that?

Which brings me back to the matter of stabbing Cloud in the face: Let's say Seph was concerned about Cloud dodging that or even a decapitation strike amidst the flurry of stabs he launched at Cloud -- each of which everyone else in this thread is claiming was intended to put Cloud down for the count. Let's just entertain that notion.

That still doesn't speak to the fact that Seph could have really easily swung that giant goddamn sword and cut Cloud in half with it. This isn't the fucking Buster Sword, where a stab will damage a large area. This is a long, thin blade with a small tip.

A desperate combatant would have been swinging that bitch and --even if, for whatever retarded reason, choosing not to take off his head or cut the dude in half -- dismembering his opponent, not poking him in his foot or shoulder.

Really, people. Really. What the hell?

... and his demeanor hides how much effort he's putting into his attacks

From what are you determining how much effort he put into his attacks? Seph seemed pretty chill to me the whole time up until he lost. That's the first time we see him express surprise and, indeed, fear.