So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Dashell]

Would certain third persons in contact with the certain first persons ask who these supposed seconds persons are, and where they can be located? Because as far as we can tell, these second persons don't exist.

Ill do what I can but I can't promise anything.

I think they might think I'm saying that, they keep pointing out the quote that Nojima said about CoT as if I'm saying something otherwise, but I'm not
of course I'm not exactly known for making my points clear either

 

[Isabella]

Addendum: A little birdy tells me certain people are claiming other certain people are claiming Cloud and Tifa are 'ZOMFG soulmates' and 'had no problems at all' during the FFVII to AC period.

Wuh? Where did anyone get that idea? I have never seen a single person who argues for Cloti say that. Are we dealing with phantom Clotis now?

Cloud and Tifa are depicted as a realistic couple with struggles, which is consistent with FF7 as a whole. FF7 is NOT the game for a starry-eyed couple who gaze into each other's eyes and read each other's thoughts. It's too hard-edged for that.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Well, how else is that person supposed to make up stories about having pwned the Clotis and stoopid arguments presented by said Clotis? Don't judge

 

[Splintered]

Wuh? Where did anyone get that idea? I have never seen a single person who argues for Cloti say that. Are we dealing with phantom Clotis now?

Cloud and Tifa are depicted as a realistic couple with struggles, which is consistent with FF7 as a whole. FF7 is NOT the game for a starry-eyed couple who gaze into each other's eyes and read each other's thoughts. It's too hard-edged for that.

Exactly, AC and OWTAS really tried to give them realistic struggles, not only in a relationship, but as people themselves. I don't understand when people go, "But FINAL FANTASY TWU LURVE isn't suppose to be realistic!!11" because yeah, the final fantasy couples don't tend to go to the domestic life. But Cloud and Tifa's character are so deeply rooted into what they have, they became more domesticated than normal Final fantasy heroes tend to be anyway, they break the norm even without their relationship being as it is.

The entire point of AC was struggling through the lows and going to a better place. Only this time it wasn't just about huge monsters and evil parasite infested madmen, it was about family as well. I don't know of any Cloti that would think that prevailing over the troubles would make Cloti worse off.

 

[Dashell]

Because some people tend to think that if Cloud and Tifa have any troubles at all then they must be a horrible couple and will always have problems and it won't work out, therefore he must choose Aerith... or some shit.

 

[Isabella]

Maybe what they mean is that we think Cloud was happy before his guilt made him withdraw. I actually think that's true. But happy doesn't mean NO problems. If it did, no one on earth would be happy. I think Cloud and Tifa do have communication issues, and that's something they'll have to work on post-ACC, but the biggest hurdle to their relationship was, IMO, that Cloud felt like he had to handle his shit alone. But as he said at the end of ACC, he realizes he's not alone, and others will be there for him and he can depend on them, he can let them in.

 

[Dashell]

Maybe what they mean is that we think Cloud was happy before his guilt made him withdraw

That's exactly it actually. They say the creators contradict themselves because Cloud is said to be happy living with Tifa but not SHOWN to be happy. They also think we contradict ourselves by saying Cloud's promised land is with his family because if that's true "Why does Nojima say problems will still happen and they might not work them out and the kids have to intervene?" (which isn't quite what he says )
You're right, happy does not mean no problems, everyone has them.

But as he said at the end of ACC, he realizes he's not alone, and others will be there for him and he can depend on them, he can let them in.

YES!
I'm so glad to be on the side that makes sense

 

[Splintered]

They also think we contradict ourselves by saying Cloud's promised land is with his family because if that's true "Why does Nojima say problems will still happen and they might not work them out and the kids have to intervene?" (which isn't quite what he says )
You're right, happy does not mean no problems, everyone has them.

Seriously?

What family doesn't have problems?

 

[Dashell]

The one with Cloud and Aerith in the flower field?

 

[Isabella]

They say the creators contradict themselves because Cloud is said to be happy living with Tifa but not SHOWN to be happy.

It may be that we disagree on what a happy Cloud looks like. For example, I think I read in that thread that, because Cloud felt a little bashful/guilty telling Tifa about the bike, that he was intimidated by her and therefore unhappy. I see that scene completely differently. That scene just strikes me as everyday life for a couple, and Cloud doesn't seem unhappy to me at all. How many women have seen that cat-who-ate-the-canary look on their boyfriend's faces, because they did something the woman might not approve of?
I don't know, maybe some Cleriths just have different experiences with relationships than I do.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's exactly it actually. They say the creators contradict themselves because Cloud is said to be happy living with Tifa but not SHOWN to be happy.

They're forgetting phase two of the sentence, where that very happiness makes him feel more guilty and paranoid. So before AC, Cloud's happiness leads into a spiral of doubt and worry.

They also think we contradict ourselves by saying Cloud's promised land is with his family because if that's true "Why does Nojima say problems will still happen and they might not work them out and the kids have to intervene?" (which isn't quite what he says )
You're right, happy does not mean no problems, everyone has them.

Surrounded by his friends and family, Cloud realizes where he belongs?
Add to that 'I was sure of one thing, Cloud would be with Tifa, etc.'
Contradiction = no.
Really, even a place of supreme happiness needs to be worked for.

YES!
I'm so glad to be on the side that makes sense

In short: Cloud's real problem wasn't his guilt, or that he was alone, but that he felt he must be alone, he must not 'push' his problems on people who only want to help. As of ACC, he realizes he can let them help, and will be there to help them.

And yes, Cloud seemed happy enough at several points during CoT.
Like at the end when he smiles.

Fake smile. Thorsmote, etc.

 

[Dashell]

That scene just strikes me as everyday life for a couple, and Cloud doesn't seem unhappy to me at all. How many women have seen that cat-who-ate-the-canary look on their boyfriend's faces, because they did something the woman might not approve of?

Like when Rob puts cookies in the shopping card when I'm not looking

Maybe I'm wrong to say their interpretations are wrong... maybe Nojima really did leave it open and possible for it to be that Tifa is pushy and selfish sometimes or the person I see her as. It just surprises me that someone can see the story THAT much differently than I do. I mean Clerith is one thing but I had no idea it skewed the story that much. Again I say, I'm glad I'm on the side that makes sense

 

[Shadowfox]

Maybe I'm wrong to say their interpretations are wrong... maybe Nojima really did leave it open and possible for it to be that Tifa is pushy and selfish sometimes or the person I see her as.

I'm not sure how open he might have left it for Tifa to be perceived as pushy and selfish since he did say that he made sure to portray Tifa as someone who doesn't nag or lecture, and that she's usually been described as someone who habitually looks out for others first.

 

[Isabella]

Maybe I'm wrong to say their interpretations are wrong... maybe Nojima really did leave it open and possible for it to be that Tifa is pushy and selfish sometimes or the person I see her as.

It seems to me their interpretation contradicts not only what's been said about Tifa (devoted to Cloud but not clingy and lets him have his space), but also what they themselves have said about her. Several Cleriths have said they like Tifa because she selflessly steps aside at the end of FF7, tragically accepting that Cloud loves Aerith and will never love her. Now suddenly she's pushing herself into Cloud and Aerith's business? Did she take back her tragic acceptance? And does she love him like a mother or like a jilted lover? It seems to change from sentence to sentence.

 

[Celes Chere]

Several Cleriths have said they like Tifa because she selflessly steps aside at the end of FF7, tragically accepting that Cloud loves Aerith and will never love her. Now suddenly she's pushing herself into Cloud and Aerith's business? Did she take back her tragic acceptance? And does she love him like a mother or like a jilted lover? It seems to change from sentence to sentence.

Well from what I've seen, the idea is that Tifa accepts that she's rejected, but she still can't control her jealousy. Apparently there is proof of this somewhere in the Ultimania... or maybe it was CoT? Eh, cba to look up the actually quote, but something like Tifa letting her peevish feelings slip out, and feeling uneasy about Cloud going back to where Aerith was laid to rest.

I really dislike that a lot of Cleriths seem to think Cloud doesn't like Tifa and that he's just pitying her. That just ... makes zero sense.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It seems to me their interpretation contradicts not only what's been said about Tifa (devoted to Cloud but not clingy and lets him have his space), but also what they themselves have said about her. Several Cleriths have said they like Tifa because she selflessly steps aside at the end of FF7, tragically accepting that Cloud loves Aerith and will never love her. Now suddenly she's pushing herself into Cloud and Aerith's business? Did she take back her tragic acceptance? And does she love him like a mother or like a jilted lover? It seems to change from sentence to sentence.

I repeat, it's not about consistency, it's about whatever best aids their ship at the moment.

Well from what I've seen, the idea is that Tifa accepts that she's rejected, but she still can't control her jealousy. Apparently there is proof of this somewhere in the Ultimania... or maybe it was CoT? Eh, cba to look up the actually quote, but something like Tifa letting her peevish feelings slip out, and feeling uneasy about Cloud going back to where Aerith was laid to rest.

Peevish feelings was about the cell scene in FF7.
As for uneasy about going to Aerith's grave, SHE feels like shit about it too. Cloud feels materially responsible for her demise. She doesn't like it because she thinks he's just gonna bottle that shit inside. And she's right.

I really dislike that a lot of Cleriths seem to think Cloud doesn't like Tifa and that he's just pitying her. That just ... makes zero sense.

Because that ttly makes sense knowing Cloud, the lifestream sequence, the HW scene, the butt touch, the start of CoT.

 

[Vendel]

Because that ttly makes sense knowing Cloud, the lifestream sequence, the HW scene, the butt touch, the start of CoT.

I can totally see Clouds thought process when Tifa confronts him about Denzel

Tifa-"Aerith Brought Denzel to us"

Cloud-Aw shit why can't she see Denzel is mine and Aeriths kid. He is our special bond. And she is trying to push her way in...think of something Cloud THINK! Gotta placate her somehow.
*Smiles*

 

[Dashell]

I can totally see Clouds thought process when Tifa confronts him about Denzel

Tifa-"Aerith Brought Denzel to us"

Cloud-Aw shit why can't she see Denzel is mine and Aeriths kid. He is our special bond. And she is trying to push her way in...think of something Cloud THINK! Gotta placate her somehow.
*Smiles*

OH my god... dude... I so have to commission someone to draw this. Someone has to draw this! Im just laughing so hard thinking about it.
and then in the last panel Tifa's like, "Good Cloud's happy." smiling herself.

I mean I know Cloud isn't the most open about his feelings but I think if Tifa really upset him by saying that he wouldn't smile. He'd be all Cloud rarely smiles and when he does, it's for real.

It seems to me their interpretation contradicts not only what's been said about Tifa (devoted to Cloud but not clingy and lets him have his space), but also what they themselves have said about her.

I think that's what bothers me the most.. then they go and say Square contradicted themselves. It's like, no dude you're contradicting Square But they just don't see it that way... What can you do? Their loss. They're the ones missing out on a great story.

EDIT:
but I guess if that's how they like their story.. well who am I to judge?

 

[Madame Mayor]

Neh, I just figured really. I mean she sat in her church all day alone, was rather socially retarded in some situations (GS), and just came off independently doing things on her own so like when she went off to pray, I just somewhat assumined she didn't hang out with friends often, but just talk to people. *shrugs*

She says Tseng is one of the only people in the world that really knows her, so if guy who stalks her for his job cause he loves her SO much knows her like a bff, I think Aerith had some friend issues. XP

but I guess if that's how they like their story.. well who am I to judge?

It's the fact that they have to make it canon and make everyone else believe it that's the problem. You should be able to comprehend a story, but then have your own views that may or may not jive with the way the story was intended. That's all. If they'd just ship Clerith like any normal shipper (fanarts and fanfics plzkthz) then everyone would be happy.

 

[paoo]

Cloud rarely smiles and when he does, it's for real.

^ So true.

And why do Cloud smile so much around Tifa in CoT? Whyyyyyy?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Neh, I just figured really. I mean she sat in her church all day alone, was rather socially retarded in some situations (GS), and just came off independently doing things on her own so like when she went off to pray, I just somewhat assumined she didn't hang out with friends often, but just talk to people. *shrugs

Going off to pray was more her doing her duty as a cetra and facing danger instead of dragging her friends along when she's the only one who can pray for Holy, not because it's a habit adopted from when she was friendless.
She's never shown as someone who has trouble making friends. AVALANCHE loves her, Marlene, even the Turks aren't exactly bitches to her, although they might not count as they try to stuff her full of lead at one point. Her personality isn't that of a loner in any way. Her being tactless is just her being tactless. I don't think Aeris was socially awkward at all.

not SHOWN to be happy.

AC picks up during Cloud's isolation while he's diseased and at his lowest. What did they expect? B-day party flashbacks? Seriously? Also, he seems pretty happy to return back home.
As for Tifa invading Cee and A's lovespace, didn't Cloud actually agree that Denzel was brought to them? Something like "that's what I thought too"?

 

[Fighter]

And why do Cloud smile so much around Tifa in CoT? Whyyyyyy?

Since he never smiles so much obviously it must be fake.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

It's not a smile. It's a grimace. It just LOOKS like a smile.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

See, I can understand the desire for realism in not wanting the characters to forever be in love with their first boyfriend/girlfriend. And yet, the same people believe the NEXT love is their one true love and they will never, ever get over them, not even when that love died and they moved in with someone clearly interested in them. Which makes me happy I've never seen the argument for 'realism' from the other side, because it just doesn't make any sense.

@FHS clearly u r rite. I mean its from tifas perspective, clearly cloud was looking paint and anrgy and bet tifa wif hs fistz but she sawr it as a sing of hs luv.

 

[Dashell]

@FHS clearly u r rite. I mean its from tifas perspective, clearly cloud was looking paint and anrgy and bet tifa wif hs fistz but she sawr it as a sing of hs luv.

Cloud's clearly a masochist