So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Loxetta]

Urge to troll... rising...

DO IT

In other news, CxA Forums sucks. Any minute shred of sympathy I had for that place has been spat upon.

 

[Dashell]

DO IT

In other news, CxA Forums sucks. Any minute shred of sympathy I had for that place has been spat upon.

They swallow too

... don't ask me how I know that...

 

[Fairheartstrife]

You know, I usually avoid directly looking into the pink--because it not only burns the eyes, but if really screws up the brain--but this neat little "objection" to the Highwind scene caught my attention and I actually don't know whether to laugh or simply stare dumbfounded at the "logic"...

Spoiler

The only actual contact is that Tifa has her head on his shoulders. Did it ever occur to anyone that Tifa just fell asleep on his shoulder, and Cloud didn't want to push her off because he knew they had a big fight in the morning? He thought it'd be best for her to get some sleep before the big fight.

*Because yes, that's the most likely explanation. He thought it best for her to get some sleep before the big fight...erm..wait...

Actually, FFVII Dismantled says that Cloud and Tifa talked from dusk til dawn. What did they talk about? Did Cloud say that he felt the same way, or did he say he thinks it would be best if they remained just friends?

*So, wait, wait...he thinks she needs her sleep before the fight, but keeps her up all night talking? Because Cloud is SUCH a talker... And YES it says Cloud felt the same way. Could someone bring this 'tard a dictionary and show her what the word MUTUAL means? Because Cloud and Tifa discovered heir MUTUAL feelings in the Lifestream, so yeah WE ALREADY KNOW they feel the same... **facepalm**

The latter option would actually make a lot of sense. In the first place, she's probably cry in response, which would account for her embarrassment the next morning.

*Yeah...that totally makes sense... if you believe in fairies and magical wishes.

I am...confused...

 

[Dashell]

The latter option would actually make a lot of sense. In the first place, she's probably cry in response, which would account for her embarrassment the next morning.

Even if I didn't all ready know who wrote that, that gave it away.

On the mutual feelings thing, where is it that it was stated they shared their mutual feelings? Was that the Ultimania? I've heard the word "mutual" isn't even in there or something... anyone have that handy? Or was this another "our Japanese translators said this and theirs said that" deal?

 

[Vendel]

Yeah I love how they are still going with Cloud making Tifa cry and felling sorry for her. THAT is why she gets embarrassed in the HIGH version of that scene.

"Tifa I don't love you. Now sleep on me."

I guess in the LOW one he slaps her or something and that is what everyone hears.

As for mutual feelings? I could be wrong but I think that stems from this.

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

Something about the words used means mutual romantic feelings or the like. Hito could tell you.

If I remember the pinker version of this they translated it as "feelings to each other" as if that makes any fucking sense.

Then again the term "mutual" is tickling something in my brain. Maybe it showed up elsewhere.

 

[Loxetta]

The only actual contact is that Tifa has her head on his shoulders.

Has this person had contact with anything other than their right hand? If not, this is evidence that it really does make you blind -- Cloud had his arm around her there. If I cba to find a screenshot I will, but I am 99% certain he was getting rather cuddly that morning himself.

In both versions.

Then again, maybe he was just cold. No sleeves, ya know.

EDIT: Okay, guess my memory isn't as clear as it used to be. At least for the low-affection version. *is a 'tard*

 

[paoo]

I don't think Cloud had his arm around her.

But the next morning, both Cloud and Tifa were embarrassed. Cloud turns around from the group, and put his hand on his neck.

AND HOW HARD IS IT TO JUST UNDERSTAND?!?!

CLOUD AND TIFA CAME TO REALIZE THEIR FEELINGS FOR EACHOTHER IN THE END OF THE STORY, AND LIVE TOGETHER IN AC AND DoC.

That must be one of the most obvious quotes for CloudxTifa.

 

[Isabella]

He made her cry in the high-affection version? Then what the heck was the low-affection version like? And why is Tifa such a dishrag that she fell asleep on the shoulder of the man who made her cry? And asked for "just a little longer" in the morning? And what kind of asshole friends does she have who tease her about crying and getting her heart broken?

Context. It's your friend.

 

[Makoeyes987]

DO IT

In other news, CxA Forums sucks. Any minute shred of sympathy I had for that place has been spat upon.

Nonsense. They have every right to feel the way they do.

Next person who mentions Aerith in a favorable light gets a two week ban. Courtesy of me. The cold hearted Cloti Overlord who's only goal is to ensure Clotis get a bad name. Because we aren't individuals. We're just merely avatars of the collective unconscious and existence of the Cloti.

And this is its unholy nesting ground.

 

[Isabella]

Did I miss something? Are we oppressing people again?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Of course we are. It isn't a LT Debate without oppression and suffering.

We flame people, gang up on them, and are just generally illiterate and mean.

We should be more like FFR, where the LT just can't be discussed period. That'd be nice...

 

[Isabella]

We flame people, gang up on them, and are just generally illiterate and mean.

HEY NOW. I am NOT illiterate.

 

[Splintered]

Oh good. I enjoy a good oppression.

Actually, FFVII Dismantled says that Cloud and Tifa talked from dusk til dawn. What did they talk about? Did Cloud say that he felt the same way, or did he say he thinks it would be best if they remained just friends?
The latter option would actually make a lot of sense. In the first place, she's probably cry in response, which would account for her embarrassment the next morning.

Ahahaha, that's an awesome theory.

"I don't like you, let's just be friends....

"And start a life together after all of this is over!"

Yeah, I can see that. Totally makes sense to me.

For the people not in on the snark, Carp and Love are homonyms in Japanese. You 'spell' them entirely differently, however.

Who remembers the "there's a fish blocking the way to the Ancient Capital. This shows that Cloud loves Aerith because fish=love" theory?

 

[Celes Chere]

Because yes, that's the most likely explanation. He thought it best for her to get some sleep before the big fight...erm..wait...

Lol, that just made me laugh so hard. XD That sure is NICE of Cloud though, leading her on before he supposedly trashes her.

Cloud and Tifa talked from dusk til dawn

Then why would Cloud wake Tifa up in the morning, if she never slept? And why were her eyes closed (as far as I could tell)... unless they were sleep talking?

And hey, you can talk during sex.

Next person who mentions Aerith in a favorable light gets a two week ban. Courtesy of me. The cold hearted Cloti Overlord who's only goal is to ensure Clotis get a bad name. Because we aren't individuals. We're just merely avatars of the collective unconscious and existence of the Cloti.

And this is its unholy nesting ground.

Yes Master. I will thank you for that post. Because that's all mindless Cloti robots do, is thank each other for posts and bad mouth Cleriths because we have egos and no lives.
/wrist

FFR

FLASH FLASH REVOLUTION!

 

[Makoeyes987]

In all seriousness, I have an idea.

Certain folks, like to say that there's no point in debating, specifically debating the LT of FFVII. That in the end, no one changes their mind or thinks differently about it.

I of course, disagree. Why don't we all talk about what part of our viewpoints have changed over the course of discussing it.

For me, I'll say that at first I was very dubious of the prospect of Aerith ever really loving Cloud in a meaningful way, because I felt that it shat on Zack since that was her first. But with Lifestream White emphasizing her feelings for Cloud, it seems pretty hard to say that she didn't. The fact is, is that she loved the guy. Doesn't mean she can't love Zack too. It's reality that over time we love more than one person. We'll always love our first, and sometimes we find others to love too. So I've come to terms with the fact Aerith definitely loved Cloud in her own way in the brief time she knew him. I always chalked it up to rebound but not anymore.

That's the main shift in perspective I've gone through. What about yours?

 

[Isabella]

So these people who accuse TLS of being cruel and oppressive ... do they look anywhere other than the LTD thread? Are there no other aspects of FF7 they're interested in?

That's the main shift in perspective I've gone through. What about yours?

I'm more open to the idea that mixed-up disc one Cloud could've been developing feelings for Aerith. I don't think it's canon (due to player choice I don't think any of Cloud's preferences are canon on disc one), but I used to write off anything that might be developing as meaningless. I now consider it just as possible that he was falling for her as wasn't. I still think it canon that he ends up with Tifa, but now I'm ok with viewing Aerith as a "might have been" if a player chooses her to be.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Probably not.

But c'mon, answer my question!

 

[Ryushikaze]

He made her cry in the high-affection version? Then what the heck was the low-affection version like?

It involves ropes and burning candles.

And why is Tifa such a dishrag that she fell asleep on the shoulder of the man who made her cry? And asked for "just a little longer" in the morning?

Because that's her kink.

And what kind of asshole friends does she have who tease her about crying and getting her heart broken?

FRIENDS? Tifa doesn't have any FRIENDS! She's utterly unlikable, except for all the people who love her... wait...

Context. It's your friend.

It's our ally.

Nonsense. They have every right to feel the way they do.

Next person who mentions Aerith in a favorable light gets a two week ban. Courtesy of me. The cold hearted Cloti Overlord who's only goal is to ensure Clotis get a bad name. Because we aren't individuals. We're just merely avatars of the collective unconscious and existence of the Cloti.

And this is its unholy nesting ground.

So can I at least say Aerith has a lovely bottom?

Of course we are. It isn't a LT Debate without oppression and suffering.

We flame people, gang up on them, and are just generally illiterate and mean.

We should be more like FFR, where the LT just can't be discussed period. That'd be nice...

Yes... Nice. Not a word I'd ever use to describe that place...

Oh good. I enjoy a good oppression.
Ahahaha, that's an awesome theory.

"I don't like you, let's just be friends....

"And start a life together after all of this is over!"

Yeah, I can see that. Totally makes sense to me.

Who remembers the "there's a fish blocking the way to the Ancient Capital. This shows that Cloud loves Aerith because fish=love" theory?

I recall chewing someone out for ages for how stupid that was.

 

[Splintered]

In all seriousness, I have an idea.

Certain folks, like to say that there's no point in debating, specifically debating the LT of FFVII. That in the end, no one changes their mind or thinks differently about it.

I of course, disagree. Why don't we all talk about what part of our viewpoints have changed over the course of discussing it.

For me, I'll say that at first I was very dubious of the prospect of Aerith ever really loving Cloud in a meaningful way, because I felt that it shat on Zack since that was her first. But with Lifestream White emphasizing her feelings for Cloud, it seems pretty hard to say that she didn't. The fact is, is that she loved the guy. Doesn't mean she can't love Zack too. It's reality that over time we love more than one person. We'll always love our first, and sometimes we find others to love too. So I've come to terms with the fact Aerith definitely loved Cloud in her own way in the brief time she knew him. I always chalked it up to rebound but not anymore.

That's the main shift in perspective I've gone through. What about yours?

I was the exact opposite. I didn't think that Zack and Aerith were ever completely serious because it was only vaguely touched on ingame, and it was mostly pumped up by pairingwar "let's stick her with anybody but Cloud" (lolJohnny). But my opinion changed, less by debate and more by Crisis Core ( I came out of that game more of a fan of Zack/Aerith than Cloud/Tifa).

I still have a lot of my core beliefs from ltd (CloudTifa are happy together, albeit some communication problems, creators still encourage interpertation, Aerith loves Cloud)

 

[Celes Chere]

That's the main shift in perspective I've gone through. What about yours?

In this LTD thread, or in the LTD in general? Oh well, I'll just respond to the LTD in general. By participating, some of my views definitely changed along the way, and some of them were thanks to Cleriths that I debated with. For instance, I used to hate Aerith and I stopped hating on her after realizing that she wasn't a bad character at all. That happened after reading Maiden, the debates, etc. I also became a lot more open-minded towards the Clerith pairing. I made friends with some of the Cleriths I debated with and that got me interested in their views. It's nice to be simply told a view and to discuss it- in a civil manner. LTD threads can be heated, but they can be without drama with every single person on the 'other side' you debate with too. I used to not like Clerith- at all- but I came to like it as fanon. I think it's cute, and I understand how it could work if such and such happened differently.

Let's see... I changed my mind about the game not having a canon pair, obviously. In the past I thought that Clerith had a chance, just that Cloti facts out weighed the Clerith ones. Now I think that it's written in stone CloudxTifa, ZackxAerith.

 

[Isabella]

@COLW's use of koibito: Doesn't it seem like that's too strong a word if we take it literally? One-sided or not, it indicates a rather strong romantic love, and we know that at least part of the 2 weeks Aerith spent with Cloud she was chasing Zack's shadow. She admits herself she saw Zack in him at first, and we've got one of the ultimanias saying her feelings for Zack explain why she acts the way she does around Cloud.

Not trying to be a stubborn Cloti; just trying to analyze its use in context. The more I think about it, the more I'm drawn to the interpretation Hito threw out there. I'm not denying Aerith had romantic feelings for Cloud, and certainly by the time of her death she'd been all about finding the real Cloud, but thinking of him as her lover? Really?

 

[Makoeyes987]

All I can say is, that's Aerith.

Cloud's clearly charming and popular with the opposite sex. I think given the fact she was initially attracted to him, and also cared so much, she grew to care for the guy deeply. She loved the guy.

And that doesn't diminish anything with Zack at all. She still loved Zack, and carried him in her heart, but unless you live by the tenant that you're only allowed to love one person seriously in a life time, its not hard to imagine that she would also feel attraction to Cloud too. I think the fact that the creators also emphasis that she loves Zack and he's by her side now in the Lifestream proves it.

But for whatever reasons, she also came to love Cloud as well. And while she didn't fully know him, that doesn't change it.

 

[Splintered]

@COLW's use of koibito: Doesn't it seem like that's too strong a word if we take it literally? One-sided or not, it indicates a rather strong romantic love, and we know that at least part of the 2 weeks Aerith spent with Cloud she was chasing Zack's shadow. She admits herself she saw Zack in him at first, and we've got one of the ultimanias saying her feelings for Zack explain why she acts the way she does around Cloud.

Not trying to be a stubborn Cloti; just trying to analyze its use in context. The more I think about it, the more I'm drawn to the interpretation Hito threw out there. I'm not denying Aerith had romantic feelings for Cloud, and certainly by the time of her death she'd been all about finding the real Cloud, but thinking of him as her lover? Really?

Well, FFVII seems to be doing that a lot, where they become strongly attatched with only a little bit of interaction. It happened with Aerith->Cloud, Zack <->Aerith, and Tifa-> Cloud. Not just Aerith, but Tifa fell pretty hard for Cloud, and the really significant moment of that was during that sort time where they made the promise. Zack and Aerith probably developed over time, but there was no denying that they had a "at first sight" moment because they hit it off really quickly.

The only person who didn't have a spontaneous pining was Cloud->Tifa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

All I can say is, that's Aerith.

Cloud's clearly charming and popular with the opposite sex. I think given the fact she was initially attracted to him, and also cared so much, she grew to care for the guy deeply. She loved the guy.

And that doesn't diminish anything with Zack at all. She still loved Zack, and carried him in her heart, but unless you live by the tenant that you're only allowed to love one person seriously in a life time, its not hard to imagine that she would also feel attraction to Cloud too. I think the fact that the creators also emphasis that she loves Zack and he's by her side now in the Lifestream proves it.

But for whatever reasons, she also came to love Cloud as well. And while she didn't fully know him, that doesn't change it.

As I've said before, even if she KNEW the Cloud she got to knew wasn't the real him, it's not like emotions are entirely rational.
But the 'a symbol of her beloved' also works for me too, since, well, HE IS.

Well, FFVII seems to be doing that a lot, where they become strongly attatched with only a little bit of interaction. It happened with Aerith->Cloud, Zack <->Aerith, and Tifa-> Cloud. Not just Aerith, but Tifa fell pretty hard for Cloud, and the really significant moment of that was during that sort time where they made the promise. Zack and Aerith probably developed over time, but there was no denying that they had a "at first sight" moment because they hit it off really quickly.

The only person who didn't have a spontaneous pining was Cloud->Tifa.

Well, in the case of T->C, there's at least the explanation of 'what I've been missing this entire time,' where she, already thinking Cloud was cute, comes to a realization that she's had a good thing under her nose/ been interested the good thing under her nose the entire time. Sort of like Squall did in 8, but before the coma of the other party.

 

[Vendel]

The only person who didn't have a spontaneous pining was Cloud->Tifa.

Really? In the flashbacks it's apparent Cloud was always hard up for Tifa.

As for Aerith? By her actions in CoLW and ACC it is clear to me that her love for Cloud is not exactly romantic. I guess being dead can help you sort those feelings.

She obviously cares for him and wants to look out for him when Sephy is obsessing over him. But the entirety of CC and the end of ACC make it clear to me that Zack is still #1 in her heart.