So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Fairheartstrife]

Wait wait wait. Going back to Tifa not going to the Forgotten Capital...

How the heck is TIFA a liability? She was wiping the floor with Loz until he cheated and caught her by surprise! There's no way she'd get caught like that a second time, and this time she'd have Cloud, so they'd be a double team.

I'm the biggest fangirl on the planet, but no, she was not wiping the floor with Loz. It has been stated--by the creators themselves--that when he says "wanna play" he means it. He is just playing with her. When he finally decides, "Ok, playtime's over" her ass is handed to her. As it would be by any fraction of Sephiroth. She is awesome!!!! But she is NOT Mako enhanced.

Besides, Cloud's more of a liability with his inability to get his act together--and he does, in fact, fail the first time. Vincent has to save his rear. If he'd brought Tifa with him, the double team of Tifa/Cloud fighting for their kids would have been pretty much unstoppable.

That's open for debate. Tifa could very well have been a distraction--or they could have whomped ass. Or monkeys may have flown out their asses... it's a lot of speculation. What is, is.

The reason I'm criticizing it is because I think this is the writers being lazy. I'm with Bella on this one. They decided to write Tifa slightly OOC (seriously, the more I think about it, the more I feel that there's no way Tifa would just sit back and wait--she's never been that type to sit and twiddle her thumbs when someone she loves is in mortal danger--plus relying on shifty Cloud who hasn't been all that particularly reliable in the past week or so is really sketchy at this point) so that they could keep up emo Cloud and make him go on his journey alone, which I still call BS on because the film should have been about Cloud overcoming things with his family and facing the responsibilities of his role in the family rather than "let's just make him look cool".

Uhm, I hate to be a stinker here, but if the writers had written Tifa wearing a frilly apron and singing show tunes, that wouldn't be OOC as it's THEIR character, so what they say...well, goes. Yes, some things go against what we the fans expect or anticipate, but we don't know the characters better than they do. We really don't.

And we are talking about Tifa...same woman that left FOUR YEAR OLD Marlene in a BAR--ALONE--in the SLUMS in game. Right? Right?

Same woman that leaves Denzel, kid stricken with Geostigma--prone to collapsing--in the BAR, ALONE, while she and Marlene hit Sector Five Church?

The woman is awesome, in MANY MANY ways, but Mama of the year, she ain't. She's learning. No doubt of her love and devotion, but you guys are being completely unrealistic in expecting her to hop on Fenrir and roar to the rescue given her own track history...

Plus, Rude and Reno tell both Tifa and Cloud where the kids are at the same time, so Tifa obviously knows where her children are by the end of that scene, just like Cloud does. I don't see why she couldn't hop on his bike and go with him, a la Bahamut scene. She'd at least be useful for a couple of "Look out, Cloud"s and grabbing Denzel and Marlene.

Or she could have decided to stay and get a hold of their friends--(funny how she wasn't all that surprised when everyone started showing up, eh)?--or maybe she thought she needed to warn/prepare the people of Edge. Or maybe, just maybe, she wasn't essential to that particular arc of the story.

Honestly, I don't think this has anything to do with "rationality" on Tifa's part and everything to do with "let's make Tifa a side-show shounen girl attraction cheering on the hero and let Cloud do the fighting because he's so awesome, har har".

How in the hell is she a side-show???? She has one of THE most epic and pivotal fights of the movie. SHE is the reason Cloud gets his ass in gear. She gives him his strength. SHE is the voice of understanding on the Shera... I mean, WHERE is she a sideshow?

**throws up hands** Maybe I watched a different movie and played a different game...

 

[Makoeyes987]

And were there or were their not Shadow Creepers in the way?
And really, why did she almost take him home in the first place if she was so sure he'd make it by himself?

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to bash Tifa here or anything, it just bugged me how she like changed her mind like that.

No, actually, there were not. They all were killed by Cloud and the Edge Square was empty of them. It's not hard at all to understand she assumed that they were gone, seeing as how the entire threat focus shifted to the BIG ASS FUCKING DRAGON that was flying around nuking everything. She probably thought it was safe for Denzel to walk down the street/alley to Seventh Heaven like a big boy and just lock the door.



She probably thought it'd be better to actually handle the huge ass summon who could eradicate Edge with its breath, than superfluously lead Denzel by the hand down the street, while everyone else fought and Bahamut could just nuke them anyways.

 

[Dashell]

No, actually, there were not.

Guess that's one of them phony horses I've heard about.

They all were killed by Cloud and the Edge Square was empty of them. It's not hard at all to understand she assumed that they were gone, seeing as how the entire threat focus shifted to the BIG ASS FUCKING DRAGON that was flying around nuking everything.

Understandable but I have to agree with FHS, she's not mother of the year. She makes mistakes. For the record I was annoyed when she left Marlene alone in the bar by herself as well. She's not perfect ,that's all I'm saying.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Guess that's one of them phony horses I've heard about.

Does that look like the Edge Square with the Meteor Monument to you, or a back alley?

Understandable but I have to agree with FHS, she's not mother of the year. She makes mistakes. For the record I was annoyed when she left Marlene alone in the bar by herself as well. She's not perfect ,that's all I'm saying.

Now that's...questionable, parental behavior. But she's not really being the mother in that situation. More like a babysitter. I'd say Barret's responsible for that most of all.

 

[Dashell]

Does that look like the Edge Square with the Meteor Monument to you, or a back alley?

I said "were there or were there not shadow creepers in the way?" meaning... on his way... except when I said it the first time I incorrectly used their. WTF me?

I didn't say anything about Tifa being able to see them... but she shouldn't have assumed they were all dead. All though when I look at it your way and assume that SHE assumed there were none, I guess I can see why she'd assume Denzel would be safe... and sorry for saying assume too much

Now that's...questionable, parental behavior. But she's not really being the mother in that situation. More like a babysitter. I'd say Barret's responsible for that most of all.

Eh I think they all could use some help in the parenting department. But you could always play the "It's just a game" card I guess...

 

[Ryushikaze]

Marlene was NOT HER CONCERN in FF7.

Marlene was BARRET'S FUCKING CONCERN.

BLAME BARRET. Not Tifa.

In AC, she was probably getting on the horn to all her old friends, so they could all go get the kids together, with Cloud being sent to make sure they didn't lose the trail.
Why else would they all appear so quickly in Edge when needed and she not be surprised at their appearance at all?
Tifa probably wasn't just thinking of her kids, but ALL the kids, which is why she didn't rush in to save them- the situation was more complicated than just her two kids at stake.
Plan just went south.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I said "were there or were there not shadow creepers in the way?" meaning... on his way... except when I said it the first time I incorrectly used their. WTF me?

I didn't say anything about Tifa being able to see them... but she shouldn't have assumed they were all dead. All though when I look at it your way and assume that SHE assumed there were none, I guess I can see why she'd assume Denzel would be safe... and sorry for saying assume too much

Again.

Run boy down the block to house while there appears to be no monsters present or...

Take care of the giant fucking Bahamut summon that's threatening to nuke the entire city with my team?

Walk boy to the front door...

or

Fight and save city from city busting dragon...

Walk boy to door...

Save city from dragon...

Walk...

Save...

I think its not that hard to understand.

 

[Dashell]

Read my edit:
I didn't say anything about Tifa being able to see them... but she shouldn't have assumed they were all dead. All though when I look at it your way and assume that SHE assumed there were none, I guess I can see why she'd assume Denzel would be safe... and sorry for saying assume too much

In AC, she was probably getting on the horn to all her old friends, so they could all go get the kids together, with Cloud being sent to make sure they didn't lose the trail.

you know that never even occured to me, good point.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Yes, but Tifa is responsible for Denzel... who she also leaves alone early in the movie.

And I'm not knocking her. In this world kids join the military at 14...so, the standards aren't exactly the same as we live by.

As for Denzel, she asks him if he can make it home--he says yes. She doesn't leave him when he tweaks and needs her, but then Cloud rides in all bad-ass and sexy slaying monsters and Denzel suddenly gets his spunk back. His HERO is home.

I wouldn't want to leave my kid to fend for himself, but when the options are--clever, resourceful kid that lived on his own in the wreckage of the plate falling making his way two blocks home, versus, saving the city from rampaging Summon with a Mega Flare capable of cratering them all--she made the right call.

 

[Dashell]

As for Denzel, she asks him if he can make it home--he says yes. She doesn't leave him when he tweaks and needs her, but then Cloud rides in all bad-ass and sexy slaying monsters and Denzel suddenly gets his spunk back. His HERO is home.

I wouldn't want to leave my kid to fend for himself, but when the options are--clever, resourceful kid that lived on his own in the wreckage of the plate falling making his way two blocks home, versus, saving the city from rampaging Summon with a Mega Flare capable of cratering them all--she made the right call.

Fair enough, I guess I'm not taking Denzel's past into consideration.
... and yeah... Cloud was pretty sexy there...

But come on that phony horse thing is funny

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Marlene was NOT HER CONCERN in FF7.

Marlene was BARRET'S FUCKING CONCERN.

BLAME BARRET. Not Tifa.

Ryu, I'm with you on most things, but come on, that's bullshit. Marlene is too her concern. She fucking sends Aerith after her. COMMON FUCKING SENSE says don't leave a four year old in a bar by herself. And Tifa is plenty ballsy standing up to Barret, so she sure as shit could have put the kid with one of the other families in the sector... Just sayin'.

 

[Isabella]

What exactly did Tifa do in the fight against Bahamut? She was there mostly for moral support -- not her fault, seeing as hand-to-hand combat doesn't really lend itself to fighting giant flying dragon things. She's there mostly to be part of the team, and more importantly, as I mentioned several days ago, she's there to react to Cloud. We're watching Cloud's growth through her eyes for a lot of the movie, which is key because her fate is so closely tied to his.

But I'm going to risk the wrath of the fanboys and girls here and say the movie as a whole is very poorly written. I can't even watch it with others around because of second-hand embarrassment. Too many eyeroll-worthy moments. But it's excellent for eye candy and for nostalgia.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, I'm with you on most things, but come on, that's bullshit. Marlene is too her concern.

Then she is also Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge's concern here. Either it's all of them or it's not a one save Barret.

She fucking sends Aerith after her.

When the ENTIRE SECTOR IS ABOUT TO BE CRUSHED, yes. It only makes sense.

COMMON FUCKING SENSE says don't leave a four year old in a bar by herself. And Tifa is plenty ballsy standing up to Barret, so she sure as shit could have put the kid with one of the other families in the sector... Just sayin'.

And yet, no one, Tifa, Barrett, Biggs, Wdge, Jessie, anyone, thought it a bad idea to leave Marlene at the 7th heaven while they were out. I stress that Barret- overprotective father Barret- was not worried about leaving her home alone. Marlene was a damn well behaved kid. Perhaps the next door neighbor was supposed to peek their head in and check.
Not like the bar was fucking open and running while they were out.

Actually, Bella, she has a few good techniques that could have done well- final heaven, natch- we just didn't see any of them, which is a damn shame. I'll agree, the movie falls apart in that area, seeing as everyone doesn't seem to be doing the logical thing and using their best movies against the guy.
Is it so much to ask for an All Creation, Highwind (or Cid's second best limit) or Final Heaven?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Then she is also Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge's concern here. Either it's all of them or it's not a one save Barret.

All of them. Natch.

When the ENTIRE SECTOR IS ABOUT TO BE CRUSHED, yes. It only makes sense.

Annnnnd my point was that Tifa sent Aerith as evidence of TIFA'S CONCERN for Marlene. Was that not clear enough?

And yet, no one, Tifa, Barrett, Biggs, Wdge, Jessie, anyone, thought it a bad idea to leave Marlene at the 7th heaven while they were out. I stress that Barret- overprotective father Barret- was not worried about leaving her home alone. Marlene was a damn well behaved kid. Perhaps the next door neighbor was supposed to peek their head in and check.
Not like the bar was fucking open and running while they were out.

It wasn't? Are you sure?

And if you would be bothered to read oh, a few posts back, you'll see I ALREADY stated that the standards we have are irrelevant in a world where 14 year olds can join the military.

My contention was with your statement that Marlene was of no concern of Tifa's. And that contention still stands.

 

[Fighter]

But I'm going to risk the wrath of the fanboys and girls here and say the movie as a whole is very poorly written. I can't even watch it with others around because of second-hand embarrassment. Too many eyeroll-worthy moments. But it's excellent for eye candy and for nostalgia.

I watched the movie before I played the game and was honestly bewildered as to why all the fuss about final fantasy. It took me playing the game to actually be impressed.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

But I'm going to risk the wrath of the fanboys and girls here and say the movie as a whole is very poorly written. I can't even watch it with others around because of second-hand embarrassment. Too many eyeroll-worthy moments. But it's excellent for eye candy and for nostalgia.

Agreed.

 

[Ryushikaze]

All of them. Natch.

Fair enough, but that's 5 out of 5 not raising any stink.

Annnnnd my point was that Tifa sent Aerith as evidence of TIFA'S CONCERN for Marlene. Was that not clear enough?

And being concerned for Marlene does not make Marlene 'Tifa's concern.'

It wasn't? Are you sure?

As sure as I am that it wasn't open in the movie when Denzel was left at home.

And if you would be bothered to read oh, a few posts back, you'll see I ALREADY stated that the standards we have are irrelevant in a world where 14 year olds can join the military.

I did see that, yes.

My contention was with your statement that Marlene was of no concern of Tifa's. And that contention still stands.

My point was that Marlene was not 'a concern' of Tifa's, in that she was not Tifa's to be responsible for, but Barret's. In the same way that you would be concerned about your friend's kids, but they would not be 'your concern,' or responsibility.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

My point was that Marlene was not 'a concern' of Tifa's, in that she was not Tifa's to be responsible for, but Barret's. In the same way that you would be concerned about your friend's kids, but they would not be 'your concern,' or responsibility.

I'll agree to that to an extent. I have kids, and my kids have friends, and I can tell you with the same certainty as the sun coming up tomorrow if one of their parents was leaving a four year old in a bar alone I'd be having issues and darn well making it my responsibility.

Singling out the well being of children as solely the parent's responsibility is a bit ridiculous. No, it doesn't take a village, but given the relationships within the AVALANCHE family, Tifa is the next most likely in line to be responsible for Marlene.

But again, this is kind of a moot discussion, in that in the realm of FFVII, no, none of them did anything wrong--as was kind of my point regarding Tifa. Holding her to the same maternal standards we have is ridiculous given the history of her character and the events regarding the children in question.

My apologies if I wan't making that clear,

 

[aniron]

But I'm going to risk the wrath of the fanboys and girls here and say the movie as a whole is very poorly written. I can't even watch it with others around because of second-hand embarrassment. Too many eyeroll-worthy moments. But it's excellent for eye candy and for nostalgia.

I agree, but only partly.
I think it's important to know (and love) the original story in order to like the movie too. It doesn't mean that AC/C is poorly written, it just wasn't mean to be an independent story.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll agree to that to an extent. I have kids, and my kids have friends, and I can tell you with the same certainty as the sun coming up tomorrow if one of their parents was leaving a four year old in a bar alone I'd be having issues and darn well making it my responsibility.

Singling out the well being of children as solely the parent's responsibility is a bit ridiculous. No, it doesn't take a village, but given the relationships within the AVALANCHE family, Tifa is the next most likely in line to be responsible for Marlene.

And I'll agree to that, but Barret is first, yet no one ever seems to hold it against him, always against Tifa.

But again, this is kind of a moot discussion, in that in the realm of FFVII, no, none of them did anything wrong--as was kind of my point regarding Tifa. Holding her to the same maternal standards we have is ridiculous given the history of her character and the events regarding the children in question.

My apologies if I wan't making that clear,

Fair enough.
Besides, while not as common here, kids do get left 'home alone' in homes that are connected to liquor stores in countries in which such arrangements happen more often than not. Generally such kids also help around the store when its open, and are taught to behave responsibly around liquors of all sort.

 

[Sunstrider]

What are you guys talking about? Marlene was a total boozehound. Didn't you see her behind the bar making some Jäger Bombs for herself as soon as everyone was heading out? And it's all that filthy harlot's fault.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So... I know full well we have a 'what happens at X stays at X' policy, but I'm not trying to drag any drama here, and the original post just is the best- and well, only- example of what I want to ask about.

http://z14.invisionfree.com/The_Northern_Crater/index.php?showtopic=642&view=findpost&p=5520390

Tell me, have any of you ever encountered this 'the character is in the character's head better than the creator of that character who decided what was in their head' nonsense before?
Yeah yeah, I know there's the death of the author nonsense, but this one strikes me as new, unique, and amazingly absurd.
I mean, where does this come from?

 

[Eerie]

Wow. Why did I click on that link? x___x I was fine before, dammit!

Now I'm trying to understand what the fuck is his point.

Cloud doesn't know that Tifa is the one who gets him the most? I think he does, that's why he states that only her actions count ._.

I'm sorry. Maybe when my brain will recover, I will try to get what the fuck he means. Or she. Or it.

 

[aniron]

I mean, where does this come from?

Clerith fanatism?...

 

[Isabella]

Not to be mean, but you have to consider the source. You know we've had plenty of chats with him over the years, and while he's a perfectly nice guy, very little of what he says has ever made sense to me.