As the person who wrote the analysis that has caused such an uproar, I feel I need to clarify a few things and respond to some others.
I don't expect everyone to read this entire post. If anything, I've learned from this experience that I don't have the patience for these long replies that I once did. Feel free to just scroll down to the responses to your own posts if you want.
If you read any or all of it, though, I appreciate it. Likewise with the article itself. Also, a few of your comments will certainly influence a future update to the article.
First, the main thing to be clarified is this: I didn't write the LTD analysis with the help of Mako Eyes or anybody else from TheLifestream.net. There is no "they" in this as I keep seeing.
I wrote this before even joining their forum as part of an update for my FFVII Plot Analysis FAQ. Here's
my first post on their forum if you're interested.
Since you guys were reading that thread some and were convinced that I'm just towing the party line, I thought you'd have checked out my first post on the forum.
Anyway, I hadn't updated the FAQ since January of 2006, but recently decided to. During that process, I realized it should have a section on the LTD if it were to truly be comprehensive.
The comments in the "Acknowledgements" section of the FAQ thanking the people at TheLifestream.net are due primarily to the various translations they've provided for the benefit of the fandom. You'll notice a great many parenthetical references throughout the document to page numbers from books they've translated. All those references are part of this newest update.
There's
a lot more in the FAQ than just the article on the LTD. I'm really baffled that the only possible contributions suggested to have come from them would relate to it. They've talked about much more than that and all of us are interested in much more than that.
In fact, the only part Mako Eyes had a hand in helping me with was the "Plotholes and contradictions" section. He looked over what I already had there to see if he thought anything wasn't a plothole or contradiction, and made some suggestions of his own.
Isabella is the only one to have influenced the LTD article after its initial drafting.
Though hitoshura obviously influenced it due to his translations, he had no actual hand in the writing of it, nor have I spoken with him about it. Everything else was my own observations of FFVII, the Compilation and various forum discussions, including some from both TheLifestream.net and this forum; you'll notice both are in the list of resources mentioned in the "Acknowledgements" section.
No offense intended to you guys, but the emphasized thanks was given to TLS because the work of those at TheLifestream.net contributed significantly to the FAQ as a whole.
It also seems I need to clarify this: I don't hate Aerith. I like her, but not in the sense that she's someone I'd be interested in. Her personality traits don't work for me. That's what I meant by "can't stand Aerith."
Doesn't mean I don't think Cloud could be interested in her, nor do I suggest that.
If you have any other questions about the process behind writing the article, feel free to ask me.
As I said in response to a comment on TLS, I didn't present my opinion as the resolution of the matter. Rather, I presented a quote from Nojima.
I then went into a related -- but different -- topic (whether the LTD seemed to lean more toward Cloti or Clerith without the Nojima comment). It was that position I then went about justifying.
To your concern about bias, I can only repeat what I said in that same response on TLS:
Not really. I was saying that KH is irrelevant, regardless of which pairing it arguably favored.
I don't see how I was arguing evidence for Cloti there by pointing out that KH wasn't part of the analysis. Rather, saying that I thought it looked more Cloti than anything but that it's still irrelevant seems to run counter to what you claimed I was doing there.
No, not really. Thinking Cloud and Tifa are or should be a couple makes one a Cloti, which I am.
I even call myself one in the article. I'm unsure where you were going with this.
The communication issues you speak of would be a problem because of their relationship status. Otherwise, why would they be such a problem as to rise to the level of being the premise of the story?
You've never seen a couple where the partners had compatibility issues? Or a work of fiction where a couple went through such problems but was nonetheless a couple?
Being involved in a romance with someone doesn't mean everything is perfect or that you always get along. Personally, I'd argue that you can't really know you want to be with someone until you've gotten angry enough to kill them but still don't want them to not be in your life.
As I said in the article, the LTD was never about who Cloud would live a perfect, share's-one-another's-thoughts, reflection-in-the-other's-eyes, fairy tale romance with. It was about who he was interested in being in a romance of any kind with -- even a dysfunctional one.
How can you argue that "maybe things would have gone well with Aerith" is in the context of romance while also claiming that those "things" -- the ones that Nojima talked about in the preceding sentences in relation to Cloud and Tifa -- amount to "he doesn't say a thing about them as a romantic couple"?
You really can't have this both ways.
Nojima's continuing the same line of thought from Cloud/Tifa into Cloud/Aerith. Either he's talking about both in the context of romance or neither.
Because of the use of "maybe"/"perhaps." It's a hypothetical, the same as, "Maybe John McCain would have been a better president than Barack Obama."
Obama is
currently the president. McCain is a
former potential president. A candidate. Then the matter was resolved.
Now, I suppose you could argue that McCain is still a presidential candidate in the sense that he could run again and maybe get elected. Likewise, you could argue that Cloud could break up with Tifa and go daydream about Aerith in the church or the flower fields at some point, making Aerith a candidate for Cloud to still be romantically interested in.
But that's not debating the LTD. The LTD is only unresolved if you're looking as far as the moment Cloud dies to see who he's with/interested in at that time.
And that's never been what it was about. It was always about who he was interested in being with during FFVII/the Compilation.
Actually, he was throwing that one out there as a potential issue between Cloud and Aerith. He was saying that her burden/charge/responsibility ("futan") is a big one. The context is, "Maybe things would have gone well between them, but one of them has a big responsibility, so maybe not."
It's all a hypothetical where Aerith is concerned.
Maybe I should have gone with "responsibility" for the translation instead.
I didn't twist anything. He said,
"If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light." The sentence is structured, "If one thing is, then the other also is." And Sephiroth
is his darkness. We know this. Cloud said so. That one isn't up to interpretation.
The only thing Nomura left up for interpretation was whether Tifa was also an ordinary person: "in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn't really human." Just because Nomura said that he removed Nojima's more in-depth explanation of Cloud and Tifa's connection in KH doesn't mean he said he'd removed
all of it.
He says, "I think you can freely think for yourself about her," but, again, in the context of whether she's human: "Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion, so I think you can feely think for yourself about her."
In the original Japanese version of FFVII, there was no Ruby or Emerald WEAPON. No fight with Diamond. There was also no flashback showing Zack die on the cliff overlooking Midgar. Those things were only added when the North American release came along.
Likewise, in all countries' original versions of Advent Children, there were many things absent that were added years later with Advent Children Complete.
You're not going to argue that those things aren't part of the FFVII canon, are you? Just as Cloud's story in FFVII was initially incomplete, it was likewise with Cloud in KH.
As for who Cloud was searching for, I'm more or less just taking him at his word. He told Sora he was looking for someone. It's later said that he was looking for Sephiroth. That seems straightforward.
Heck, Cloud's still doing it in KH II, even after he knows where Aerith is.
I'm aware that there's an interview with Nomura in the KH Ultimania where he was asked if Cloud had been looking for Aerith and said, "You might say it was made so that you can take it that way." That interview was also before the inclusion of Sephiroth, as well as Cloud's statement that he was looking for Sephiroth. Nomura can decide to make the abstract into something concrete later, can't he?
Feel free to argue that Cloud was looking for Aerith in the original, incomplete release of the game. I won't disagree with you. That's reasonable enough. I had that impression too.
But I'd argue that the canon of the matter is whatever came later, especially when things that were vague before became specific.
There couldn't be more than one bed? I'm not saying you're wrong, but what's your own explanation of the late-night scene where Tifa asks Cloud some questions?
"Slept." The verb was past tense, and applies only up to the point in time where Barret left to settle his past. That was shortly after he helped them build what Case of Barret refers to as "their home."
Remember, Case of Tifa covers a span of two years, so there's a lot of time after Barret left.
By the way, the bedroom where Marlene and Denzel sleep is called "the children's room" and it's said that Marlene has "her own bed" there.
He got geostigma after he left. His ACC Dengeki profile says so.
You don't think the context of one of these characters being Cloud's darkness and the other being a light means that this other character is Cloud's light? Where else in the series are characters randomly presented as light without relation to another character -- especially in such a way that they wouldn't be a human the same way as Cloud?
The closest concept to that is the Princesses of Heart, but they weren't embodiments of light. Their hearts just possessed no darkness. And Tifa isn't one of them anyway.
You're misreading the comment. He's saying he doesn't mean to go into those things because that's exactly what he did -- the couple's problems were the
premise of the story he wrote, and his views on love, marriage and family influenced the story. That's why he says this and laughs about it.
It's like how you might say, "I don't mean to be a prude," right after you've said something prudish.
Just want to point out that I said exactly the opposite in the article. Not sure if you were suggesting that I had said this as well, but there seem to be several ideas attributed to the article that I didn't include. Want to nip it now just in case.
Actually, the word that was used ("tachiba") does mean "role." It refers to a living, actualized element of your life. I mention this in the article.
While I wasn't involved in that translation, I don't think it takes a Cloti to decide that "beloved" makes more sense. Cloud and Aerith were not a couple while she was alive. We have all always known this.
The game doesn't show it to be the case, and we have Cloud's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile telling us he didn't even realize she was interested in him during that time. There's no way for "boyfriend" or "lover" to make sense in this context.
With the context of "koibito" most accurately being "one who is desired" or "desired person," "beloved" works best with what we know about Cloud and Aerith during the time she was alive (the period she was commenting on in Case of the Lifestream White).
And I'm perfectly alright with that. Like I said, I wrote this thing to make my FAQ comprehensive, not to sway Cleriths. Whatever people take from it is theirs, as was the case when they played FFVII and took whatever they did from it.
If someone gets something out of it, though, I'm glad of that.
Glad you brought that up, actually. My response to that is simply that Nojima's comment came after the release of the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania.
I meant it in the plainest sense: "to lie or press close together."
As the character blurbs in the FFVII: Kaitai Shinsho were written by Benny Matsuyama, their canonicity is as questionable as Maiden. That's why I didn't examine them.
For that matter, this one is refuted by the game itself, which shows Tifa asleep prior to dawn and then Cloud waking her up.
Cloud scratches the back of his head. It's either confusion or embarassment, and the former seems unlikely.
That she does it after asking if they were listening is what indicates embarassment.
I don't see how it's clearly annoyance in this case. Hesitation, perhaps, but that isn't a strictly negative emotion, nor is it only used in negative ways during the game.
For example, if you somehow end up with Yuffie for the date at the Gold Saucer, Cloud does a lot of those long ellipses because he's nervous after she kisses him.
He also uses it with Aerith after she asks him if he was ever in SOLDIER, and that occasion was probably neither annoyance, hesitation nor anything negative. Surprise more than likely, as he wondered how she knew.
As I explained in the article, I'd conclude the high affection version to be more likely on the basis of feelings being communicated from both of them. The low affection version involves Tifa talking about her feelings quite a bit, but Cloud really offers nothing of his own.
If what actually went down involved both of them talking about their feelings instead of Tifa just talking about hers before Cloud saying they should go to sleep, then the only one that seems to fit that is the high affection version. See where I'm coming from better?
Those aren't the only possibilities. There's also the simple possibility that he's commenting on whether he thinks things are going well between them, and whether they can improve if not.
Most definitely. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is a matter where myself and the folks at TLS disagree for the most part.
Most of them are more forgiving of these inconsistencies than I am and allow the creators room to alter reality. But, as I said in the FAQ, to each their own.
Thanks, Beatrix. And you're absolutely right.
Not exactly. I was saying that carrying undying thoughts of Aerith doesn't equate to carrying for her undying romantic yearning. He would carry undying thoughts of either woman in the event of their grisly death right before his helpless eyes, just as he did with Zack.
Also, this is another case where context isn't always examined fully. This statement from Nomura came before Advent Children was even released. The full statement includes the comment that these undying thoughts he carries "even to this day" -- "this day" still being prior to the release of AC -- had a relation to the church and would have to be left to your imagination until the movie came out.
We then look at the movie. A relation between Cloud's thoughts of Aerith and the church is seen with the wolf, which represents Cloud's guilt. The wolf appears in the church and other places associated with events he feels guilty about.
Just like real people do, even when married. After all, Nojima said that his views on love, marriage and family are what influenced this story, so it's to be expected that realistic concerns people go through would show up.
Does that seem like a direction Nojima would take FFVII, though? Or does it fit the tone of FFVII, where there's a rather harsh and unforgiving setting?
I mention this in a different article in the FAQ, but before the game has even begun, the bright-eyed, pure-hearted, typical hero (Zack) has been gunned down in the defense of the unfriendly, anti-hero (Cloud) -- who then goes on to be torn down himself, rather than painted positively as anti-heroes tend to be.
For that matter, Nomura and Kitase said they wanted Aerith to die without warning and not come back -- all in defiance of the typical "meaningful deaths" and resurrections we see so often.
Hell, the fact that Aerith was the one to go is itself a stab at bright and cheery ideas. She's the one that fits the setting the least. The world around her is dark and everything -- even her comrades' personalities and garb -- reflects this. She isn't the one you would have expected to see killed, and especially not like that.
She's cheerful, grows flowers and wears a pink outfit of all things. And then she gets skewered while her friends are helpless to do anything about it.
Why would you expect a getting-lost-in-one-another's-eyes kind of romance from a story like this?
I'm open to suggestions for improvement.
The creators didn't have anything to do with the U.S. marketing. Besides, Cloud's feelings for Sephiroth weren't a "hatred that always was" anyway. He admired the guy initially.
If you want to take
that commercial literally, you'd need to address that.
Also, doesn't the line "a love that can never be" run counter to most Clerith views?
The commercial I already addressed. The other matter I mentioned in the FAQ: Cloud and Aerith aren't shown as a couple during the time she was alive, and his 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile says he was oblivious to her interest -- as well as Tifa's -- in him during that period.
You can't pick and choose which details you want to count if you really want to debate canon.
As I said in my FAQ, I don't count BC, CC and DC in the same continuity as the original game and AC/ACC, but they're undeniably canon.
All couples have problems. Even the ones that couldn't imagine life without one another. That's the unavoidable reality of sharing your life with another person who has their own feelings, thoughts and history that influences their feelings and thoughts.
By the way, this seems like more cherry picking of quotes. Nojima said they have problems that will be around regardless of Sephiroth, yes, but there are also multiple sources -- the ACC Dengeki profiles and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania -- stating that Cloud was happy living at Seventh Heaven and became depressed because his guilt made him believe he didn't deserve that happiness.
The creators have demonstrated that they want realistic scenarios in some respects. Take Kitase's comments on Aerith's death, for example:
"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."
Nomura even pondered whether presenting those "Hollywood feelings" to people and giving them those expectations was irresponsible.
Then you have Nojima making that comment about his views on family influencing Case of Tifa. I think that -- psychologically anyway -- FFVII was the setting where the creators pushed their ideas of how hard and harsh life is. It's also the first one that explored Sakaguchi's ideas of what comes after death -- which had been influenced by the loss of his mother.
FFVII's world has always been one where these guys got their feelings related to the real world off their chest.
I pushed no such thing. The "Cloud is a Zerith" comment at the end of the article was a joke. I said as much right there.
I also said early in the article that "you aren't going to see me arguing that she loved Zack more than Cloud, or that she only loved Cloud based on the similarities he had to Zack." I didn't do that. I'm confused by your comment.
By the way, where did Aerith reject Zack within the canon? I know there's Maiden, but that doesn't seem to be counted by SE.
Thank you.
If it isn't the same color or the same size, isn't identified as the same materia within Dissidia, and isn't identified as a reference to Aerith in Dissidia's Ultimania despite many less significant references being called out -- how is it obviously "the exact one"?
The sphere Tidus got looks like many of the other spheres in the game -- which also look like the sphere Yuna had. There's Jyscal's sphere, the Jecht spheres, the spheres on the floor of the travel agencies, etc. They all look like that.
As for the magicite, it's never identified as Maduin's any more than it is identified as Ifrit's. They're just generic crystals.
Did I not include comments like these in the article?: "Cloud carries both women around with him, but inevitably in different ways. So, in this zero-sum game, that leaves the two ladies balanced as far as the use of that particular idea goes."
I did my best to be fair. I didn't just throw in everything that could be taken as a positive for a Cloti conclusion. I analyzed the points that were there for both sides, and then -- with all pieces informing all others -- made a determination as to which worked and which didn't.
You're free to disagree with my conclusions, but I'd ask you to not suggest that I omitted data if you're not going to mention what the omissions are. I'd be more than happy to look at whatever you feel warrants mention.
You assume correctly. Who hasn't heard the argument that if Tifa has to ask Cloud if he loves her then they're not in a romantic relationship?
But, then, who hasn't heard of -- or themselves asked -- this question in such a relationship? When you're in one that's not going particularly well, you start to wonder. So you eventually ask.
I don't mind. Thanks for the consideration, though.
For the record, I don't endorse the use of the "Analstar" or "FFGayness" monikers, nor do I endorse dropping mortars on Cleriths.
The point is that the line was translated improperly. You, of course, have only my word for that, but I offer my assurance -- whatever that's worth -- that it was.
A literal translation, by the way, is often the best place to go for context, unless of course there are idioms involved. Those have to be taken case by case.
Anyway, it's not uncommon for things like this to happen, even in official translations. After all, the official translation of Case of Tifa included with North America's Limited Edition version of Advent Children said that Cloud told Elmyra of Aerith's death, when the actual word here ("hanashimatta") would mean he simply talked to her about it.
This was an issue because some thought it was a continuity blunder. Reeve had already told Elmyra in the original game about Aerith dying.
It wasn't a blunder at all. Just a mistranslation into English, where the verb meaning "to talk" was treated as one meaning "to inform."
Well, I did announce it upfront. Sorry you were disappointed, though. Thanks for reading anyway.
That's what I did. I was just offering my conclusions in the article.
