So where do we stand on the big remake mystery now?

[ForceStealer]

I'm withholding judgment until it plays out. With 4 years between these games all we can do is wade through insane theory after insane theory(including my own). In fact I think us being exposed to so much discourse and argumentation over what's really going on makes it feel way worse than what actually might be happening. All the noise from the internet creates more additional perceived convolution than what would be otherwise.

While true, I love that the best solution to most of the story-breaking issues every theory creates is that, "Don't worry about it, they're not good enough writers to consider that."

 

[Roundhouse]

 

[Fryguy07]

View attachment 12652

Lol thats actually pretty good

 

[waw]

I want to preface this with I'm 100% okay with being completely wrong about any and all of this. I couldn't have predicted the Whispers and their effectiveness, I couldn't have guessed to Genesis when DoC's ending came out. I don't know where they're going. I reserve the right to be totally wrong when coming up with crackpot theories. I don't have the Devs' brains in my pocket, and I'm not creating a 4 hour analysis video that takes a small detail and turns it into some sort of secret easter egg the devs planted to hint to us all where it's going. I love folx who do that, but I'm not doing it XD

Here's what I believe to be core premises about any predictions of where to go next:

1. FF7 had serious twists. Aerith's Death? The Zack Reveal? Seph's dad?
2. FF7 twists are all at least partially spoiled within Remake (and with Crisis Core Reunion coming).
3. They've shown to still care about twists with whole new revelations embedded in Remake.
4. I will slap bet anyone that Rebirth will have new twists just like Remake did.

I think that's all any of us can be sure of, to be honest. Which leads to my crackpot Fake Cloud theory. I address the rest below.

Come on now, the promise scene is the only memory that hasn't been altered by Jenova.

So, there's a premise to what I'm saying that's worth understanding. I believe the Cloud we play as is fake. This was the plot in the OG. We know Sephiroth can make Thought Forms, and he makes knew ones based on other people's memories. What if he used Cloud to make one? Some silly shenanigans where the memories of Future Cloud were used to make a Puppet that didn't realize it was a Puppet, kinda like Kadaj didn't seem to fully realize it. And that can lead to Cloud having genuine memories and fake memories. I do believe that Fake Cloud will get merged or something with Real Cloud. I don't think our player will just be... meaningless. But it'll get complicated. It's Final Fantasy, after all.

And now I remember it, the devs did say that true Cloud surfaced during Tifa's resolution, as he wanted to comfort her. So case closed lol

The quote you shared doesn't really close the case on anything. The difference is that memories are altered using Jenova's abilities. If that memory didn't need to be altered, then why would it get altered? Whatever the whole endgame revelations will be, the fact that this memory wasn't altered isn't proof that Sephiroth/Jenova/Cloud couldn't have altered it. It's certainly not proven in anything you said that Sephiroth can't understand love.

To be fair, we also don't see it for his dream about his mum (because the chapter starts while he's dreaming), but we do see that Jenova altered this memory with his outfit.

The point of what was being said is that Jenova/Sephiroth don't alter any of Cloud's memories in Remake. Rather, he unconciously uses Jenova's mimetic power to alter the memories himself. Cloud is a willing participant in the lie here, even if he isn't fully aware of it. That's not new for Remake either.

wade through insane theory after insane theory

Well that's a lot of fun, isn't it? That's what I'm here for!

 

[Limestone]

Why specifically is Biggs alive?

Why not Jessie?

Does Jessie glove and bandana mean she is alive, or where they just grabbed in the act of saving Biggs for some reason?

Even if killing the whispers made it so Biggs survived, why did he wake up in a bed in the sector 5 slums?

Zack didn't wake up somewhere completely different when he survived where he normally died. Why didn't Biggs wake up in the sector 7 rubble? Who brought him there?

Why did it take so long for the Whispers to try to kill Wedge again if they wanted him dead? Were they only concerned if he was actively doing something that would alter fate in a big way such as being in the Shinra building for some reason?

Did they leave Biggs alive because they didn't recognize him doing anything that would alter fate in a big way and that's why we see him alive at the end? Were they only concerned with trying to make sure he was dead when he could potentially interfere with fate during the Pillar chapter?

I feel like they can write their way out of this. I figured that Biggs didn't actually die on the pillar but was wounded and fell unconscious. Then he was picked up by other Avalanche members and brought to the orphanage since it was the closest thing he had to a family. Normally he would have succumbed to his injuries, but the defeat of the Whispers led him to recover. Meanwhile, Jessie just straight up died and the Avalanche team took a couple things as mementos. Stuff about Wedge could be handwaved away by your explanation. It seemed like that Whispers are not unlimited in number anyway; maybe they focus on spots where the Planet's course is most likely to be altered.

Out of universe explanation: Remake spent a decent amount of time with Wedge and Jessie compared to Biggs. Thus, Biggs survives, gets a couple moments in the spotlight, and is then summarily killed off.

 

[LNK]

I'm telling ya. If we don't see Zack interacting with people we know to be around, in the present, with our group here... it's going to become more and more clear that is exactly the case.

I haven't changed from it either. I'll admit that I haven't put a whole lot of thought into the evidence, besides what I brought up after Intermission was released. I just really like what was done with MWTtP, and I'd like to see it used within the game.

 

[Kain424]

They may do something along those lines. I think it's... I dunno. A bit hackey? But then, they often revel in a little of the silliness here and there. So maybe.

If we do end up going as far as the Northern Crater, maybe they can reimagine Sephiroth taunting Cloud by now throwing a living Zack at him somehow.

Yeah, this is one of the things I am saying. a seemingly alive, walking and talking Zack could absolutely be used in place of a conjured photograph to much better effect. I'm not saying for sure that's what's up, but it ain't a bad theory really.

I 100% think that's up to the creators to deliver and tell in a way that resonates with fans. And I 100% think they will.

Why, though? The stuff that worked best in Remake was from the original game. What makes you think deviating from that in a big way would be worth the time?

Hence the big 'Aerith is dead in Zack's timeline' theory, hmm....

I kinda hope that's not the case, although if it's true, I wonder if this then means main timeline Aerith has a better chance of living.

Honestly, it kind of does.

I think he didn't actually die! I admit it would be on of those things that needs explanation, did someone save him? Cait Sith I'm looking at you...
I think Jessie did in fact die, but Biggs might have just fell unconscious.

This is supported in the game itself. Jessie is mentioned to have been mortally wounded or some such phrasing. Biggs is a different story.

 

[Roger]

This is supported in the game itself. Jessie is mentioned to have been mortally wounded or some such phrasing. Biggs is a different story.

What was Biggs stated as being instead of mortally wounded?

 

[Kain424]

I feel like maybe it said "badly injured" or some such thing. I can't remember. Perhaps I'm inferring because of Jessie's?

 

[waw]

Why, though? The stuff that worked best in Remake was from the original game. What makes you think deviating from that in a big way would be worth the time?

Yeah, the OG stuff worked wonderful. But I also think every new addition worked wonderfully as well. The dance off in Honey Bee Inn? A+. My wife came running in to watch it and giggled so hard. She loved that scene. Jesse's big adventure? A great little side story that worked perfectly with things. Roche? Excellent.

The Whispers? I loved them and I think they played on the entire compilation very well. I don't think the new stuff didn't work or whatever is implied here. I think it work especially well.

I fully believe Remake/Rebirth/III is entirely the final installment of the Compilation and the final work of FF7 tying it all together. It's the Avengers: Endgame of this thing, the ultimate rise in decades of storytelling. It's evolved, new ideas, and expanded from the original thought they had, but the Devs had this in mind for years. These new elements really work for me, but I don't fully understand them just like any other fan. None of us know exactly what's going on with the Whispers and this memory/time travel stuff. But I loved the experience.

These devs had continuously delivered for me, so yeah, I 100% trust where this is going. I don't have guarded cornflakes. They won't shit in my cereal. It's going to be wondeful. Remake was probably the best game I've ever played. It was just phenomenal. Why do we have any reason to doubt where they're going next?

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, the OG stuff worked wonderful. But I also think every new addition worked wonderfully as well. The dance off in Honey Bee Inn? A+. My wife came running in to watch it and giggled so hard. She loved that scene. Jesse's big adventure? A great little side story that worked perfectly with things. Roche? Excellent.

The Whispers?

The difference between these things is that the first set all expanded the world and universe of FF7. The latter upended it. You are of course perfectly free to be into it, I just wanted to highlight this difference because so often the people the who aren't into the latter are told they wanted a 100% straight, by-the-numbers remake and to go play the original or Ever Crisis when the rest of that stuff I was completely here for. (Not that you specifically did that.)

 

[ultima786]

"
He's in the main timeline but he's a ghost, that is why no one in the church reacts to him.
"

I kinda hope this is the answer. That he's a whisper, but a Whisper who has gone rogue, in that he's trying to help Aerith, and not the [sick] planet, nor sephiroth

 

[KindOfBlue]

I just wanted to highlight this difference because so often the people the who aren't into the latter are told they wanted a 100% straight, by-the-numbers remake and to go play the original or Ever Crisis when the rest of that stuff I was completely here for. (Not that you specifically did that.)

I specifically did that, I’ll happily concur that I’m not beyond reproach here lol.

The point being made there is more about the redundancy of remakes. Why bother retelling an old story when it’s still playable today? I’d make the same point about people who just wanted the OG battle system, well, we have it. I know some players want what they would consider a “definitive” FF7 experience, which may amount to the OG story and any combination of updated visuals, gameplay, voice acting and expansions. Fair enough, that’s what many people have come to expect out of a remake, but as I’ve said in other discussions, I do think that if the devs felt that all they had to offer was just expanding parts of the OG story, then there wouldn’t be a remake in the first place.

From what they’ve said in interviews, they wanted to use modern technology to do things that couldn’t be done before, but they have also said that this is not a replacement to the OG. And let’s face it, if the remake was just the same story but expanded AND with all the bells and whistles of a modern game, then it would make the OG obsolete by and large. Clearly the devs didn’t want that, and as somebody who thinks most remakes are just cash cows feeding on nostalgia, I respect it.

Regardless of whether or not I like what they’re doing, I respect that they actually have something to say, which is why I take issue with how some detractors misrepresent the devs’ intentions and dismiss what they’re doing just because they don’t like it. One can do the latter without the former. To them, I will always say just play the OG.

As for me, well, I have ample visual reference for what a modern FF7 looks like. Nothing we’ve seen so far has been so outside the original that I can’t just headcanon my own version of FF7 that is modern but doesn’t have the new story twists if I felt so inclined lol. Once they’ve completely strayed from even that possibility, then I’ll probably lean more into being negative towards the remake and even then, my ultimate resolution would be to just play the OG.

That’s pretty much what I’ve told myself after Remake, even though I like it now, if I hate it in the future then at least I still have the OG. The devs did express the goal of wanting to recreate the iconic moments from the OG so I’m not too concerned yet anyways. Come find me when they make Genesis the main villain or they kill off Cloud and replace him with Zack or kill Tifa instead of Aerith or something like that lmao.

 

[waw]

The difference between these things is that the first set all expanded the world and universe of FF7. The latter upended it.

I don't know if I totally agree. Firstly, we're definitely see a world expansion within Remake. I mean, characters and Midgar definitely were expanded. But the mythology seems upended, and while I agree to an extent, there's enough embedded in the original about time and memories, and devs' comments about the final compilation installment that I think this is entirely an expansion on the FF7 mythology, more so than "upending" it.

Upending our notions isn't a bad thing. And we've had deep discussions on this forum that show just how close the creators are hewing to their own mythology.

I just wanted to highlight this difference because so often the people the who aren't into the latter are told they wanted a 100% straight, by-the-numbers remake and to go play the original or Ever Crisis when the rest of that stuff I was completely here for.

They definitely played with expectations on this, and that's a fair criticism. That said, I really do see it as the next installment continuing the saga. I won't tell anyone they're wrong to be disappointed it wasn't a 1:1 remake, that it's not just a glowup of the original. But I wasn't telling folks that in anyway. My entire is comment is that these things (additions) worked in the Remake as much as the original content. This new stuff worked so well that I'm expecting any direction the devs are going in to be worthwhile and solid. I don't want to lose the point of my statements here. I was answering a question as to why I would trust the direction the devs are going in. It's not just a statement about "enjoy the Remake or go play EC."

I kinda hope this is the answer. That he's a whisper, but a Whisper who has gone rogue,

Ye gods that'll be good. Especially if when the party finally sees Zack in person, it's as a Whisper. That'll be a mindfuck and a half.

 

[Eerie]

The point of what was being said is that Jenova/Sephiroth don't alter any of Cloud's memories in Remake. Rather, he unconciously uses Jenova's mimetic power to alter the memories himself. Cloud is a willing participant in the lie here, even if he isn't fully aware of it. That's not new for Remake either.

That's literally the whole point of Cloud's arc, which you want to rob him of BTW; he runs away from reality because he fears the outcome. If you say "oh it's just a clone" then congrats, there is no need for the Lifestream scene which is the biggest and most important scene in the OG. It's the turning point where Cloud can finally confront his fears and is reborn anew. This is why his arc is so satisfying, it's because it begins with a big problem that is solved by himself, with the help of Tifa. Everything ties together because of how the story is made.

If you go the clone route, then the player will have no attachment to the real Cloud, whom he doesn't know at all, who doesn't seem to have any other struggle than being mako poisoned etc. It removes the plot of him being controlled by Jenova - talking about the real him - and him going down to finally go up until he can kill Sephiroth (again).

There's literally no interest anymore into following this story, congrats, it's super uninteresting because the main character never interacted with the one who's dead (and developped feelings for your clone, how pathetic do you think the devs want to make her out, because I'm sure it's not the idea there), his bonds with the party are shaky at best (they don't know him except Tifa), etc.

I think you misunderstood the idea behind FFVIIR; it's very obvious that while FFVII did shock players, they are not taking that route. Yes there will be twists, but what is known, well, is known, so they're playing other strings on that (will we be able to save Aerith? WTF is going on with Zack? Yo Sephiroth, you up to no good but what kind of no good?). Those are the mysteries we are facing for Rebirth. They want to play with us about what's real and not because it's a big part of Cloud's mental state. How can he know all of this, yet, why is it so different? The characters need arcs with a good closure, you don't spend 2 games out of three on a clone to just go "eh" with the real Cloud.

It's also why Zack can't interact with Cloud up until after the Lifestream scene. Because he knows what happened and can explain. But would it help Cloud? Would it feel fulfilling for the players who has spent hours with Cloud Strife? No. What's fulfilling is that Cloud confronts his fears himself. That he is able to accept himself because of a long introspection with Tifa's cheerings for him (yes it's important for Cloud that she would be there).

This is why the idea of us playing a clone is, at least for FFVIIR, mind-boggling. It would be such a BAD writing and I don't believe that the devs are going to throw everyone under the bus for the sake of "shocking people".

 

[Fiz]

Zack still being dead at this point would be such an intense troll-y red herring I'd have to admire the balls the writers would have to just sell something so deceptively to the audience. Like, that'd be fucked up but also hilarious.

While it would be slightly amusing, it would suck. As would playing Remake to OG. Fake outs are cheap writing and not really where I want this to be. If they're doing this then I expect them to have great new storytelling ideas they want to experiment with, not great new marketing ideas they want to experiment with.

 

[Roundhouse]

A lot of people seem to want fake outs for some reason -- faking that Aerith can live but nah she dies, or faking Zack is alive but nah he's dead, etc.

 

[Kain424]

Because fake-outs are part of the fun of Final Fantasy VII.

 

[Odysseus]

In my opinion the fake out already happened regarding Zack at least. "You thought this was going to be a normal remake, but oops there's destiny ghosts and Zack is alive now lmao."

 

[LNK]

It doesn't even need to be looked at as some troll like fake out, imo. Maybe Zack thinks he's alive, so that's why the devs said he was alive. I've seen a couple movies do this

 

[Golden Ear]

I'm personally not a fan of seeing characters walking around in some kind of afterlife like they're just normal and alive. People have also suggested that once Aerith dies then we'll see her occupying the same lifestream/world as Zack and they will meet and maybe become lifestream warriors helping from the lifestream perhaps? Like I said not a fan, when Aerith dies and don't want to see her walking around like she's still alive.

 

[Roundhouse]

Didn't they already establish that characters can walk around as Force Ghosts as in Advent Children?

 

[Golden Ear]

They didn't really do it in a way that was like just a normal world they're walking around in.

It was done kind of ethereal and more mysterious, appearing as visions or more like spirits.

 

[jeangl123]

Didn't they already establish that characters can walk around as Force Ghosts as in Advent Children?

The reason Cloud saw Aerith and presumably Zack since he is depicted the same way, is because their consciousness's live inside him.

 

[Golden Ear]

Yes I prefer the way it was done in advent children so far.