So where do we stand on the big remake mystery now?

[Roundhouse]

So if the Zack is Dead theory is true, then you will already dislike it I'm assuming, as we see him walking around in a very normal way in that church scene...

 

[jeangl123]

The script calls it the world of pure white, in the scenes where Cloud interacts with Aerith and Zack. Script was posted by ModestKowa.

 

[Golden Ear]

If that theory turned out to be true I would give it a chance to see how they handle it. But if it's handled in a way where it's portrayed like normal Gaia except everyone is dead I don't really like that.

When Aerith dies is she just going to be walking around like normal chatting with Zack about how they need to purge the lifestream? I'll give it a chance but I can't picture it in a way that seems cool to me personally.

 

[Roundhouse]

World of Pure White, eh?

 

[Golden Ear]

Those white screen moments only happen for a couple seconds through, but to be Fair (no pun intended) we barely have seen anything of where Zack is yet. Do you know what I mean though about just seeing them walk around like normal? The advent children scenes came across very differently so far.

 

[Roundhouse]

I do know what you mean, yeah. I agree I think, seeing people running around an afterlife that looks like the normal world would just be......weird.

 

[LNK]

I'm personally not a fan of seeing characters walking around in some kind of afterlife like they're just normal and alive. People have also suggested that once Aerith dies then we'll see her occupying the same lifestream/world as Zack and they will meet and maybe become lifestream warriors helping from the lifestream perhaps? Like I said not a fan, when Aerith dies and don't want to see her walking around like she's still alive.

Yep, that's my theory.

Beetlejuice did it that way. Barbara and Adam died, but went back to their house thinking they were still alive. Nothing looked different.

Down to Earth did it a little differently

 

[Eerie]

BTW, in case you missed it, we do see the Lifestream in Remake:

It happens after the fight against the Whispers and this is why I have the theory that the Lifestream connects the different worlds.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm gonna have some fun with this lol

Spoiler

 

[Roger]

It should be "Somehow Genesis Returned".

 

[Eerie]

Stop talking about his return, you're going to jinx us all. What will we do then?

 

[waw]

In response to this, I'm going to turn back to one of the core things I've been saying: I trust the developers. They could reveal that Sephiroith is secretly Kuja this entire time and I'm here for the story they're telling. So many people stated the Whispers can't be in the game, it'd ruin the story. Seph can't show up early, it'd ruin the story. Zack can't live, it'd ruin the story. And more. All of these things were called "bad storytelling" by some fan or another, all of these things were stated to have irrevocably besmirched the original.

And Remake devs pulled it off. I don't really care what whacky theory fans put out, I doubt it'll be accurate to what we actually see. However, if some whacky element ends up in this trilogy, I'm expecting to be wowed, impressed, and enjoying the writing. And to be clear here, an idea doesn't make for "bad writing." Palpatine's return? Genesis's return? The villain being the Hero's Dad? All that stuff doesn't make a story good or bad. Death fakeouts? Not good or bad. It's is all about the execution of the story and that is it. I trust the devs to deliver.

So when Future Aerith can't manifest in her own body (as stated in OTWTAS) and she takes on Zack's and that's what's going on there? I'll be impressed!

That's literally the whole point of Cloud's arc, which you want to rob him of BTW; he runs away from reality because he fears the outcome.

By making Player Cloud any sort of.... Remnant/Clone/Whisper/Fake thing, I don't think this story is being ruined at all. OG Cloud could stay a vegitative, braindead state until Player Cloud's consciousness merges inside giving us the Lifestream scene. This could put us in position where the Clouds have to understand everything that they are and reconcile with it all. Maintains the player's connection to the character and "restores" Cloud in a similar manner while providing a new twist and change to the story.

If you go the clone route, then the player will have no attachment to the real Cloud, whom he doesn't know at all, who doesn't seem to have any other struggle than being mako poisoned etc

Yeah, it's the obvious issue here. Having a second Cloud around, which we seem to if we have Zack around, creates this problem regardless. Some Cloud is going to be in this story that we don't have attachment to or experience with. Even if the backstory to each Cloud is the same. To be fair, we don't actually have a connection to Zack here either. We all feel one because of past and previous experiences with the FFVII Lore. But we don't know this Zack at all. Whatever story they go, I have every reason to believe the devs will create a tangible and full connection with the characters we have in front of us.

There's literally no interest anymore into following this story, congrats, it's super uninteresting because the main character never interacted with the one who's dead

I think you're grossly jumping the gun to misconstrue the concept in the absolute worst way. If we get a story say where Zack has crossed timelines and saves Aerith, or dies in her stead? We have no connection that character, it's a deus ex machina, it's entirely out of context of Remake and it'll be meaningless. Terrible idea. No interest in it. I see this response you've taken here the exact same to every fan who decried the Whispers.

(and developped feelings for your clone, how pathetic do you think the devs want to make her out, because I'm sure it's not the idea there),

Aerith did develop feelings for a false persona in part patterend after her dead boyfriend. She never developed feelings for "real" Cloud. Are we talking about different things here really? Isn't that pathetic in a similar way?

I think you misunderstood the idea behind FFVIIR; it's very obvious that while FFVII did shock players

I don't interpret FFVIIRemake as only serving to "shock" players. I think it's a capstone to the entirety of the compilation. I think it's going to give players a similar experience as we had back in 1997. The story is going to have new twists that'll wrench our hearts and put us on the edge of our seats. They've emphatically shown that to be the case.

Yes there will be twists, but what is known, well, is known, so they're playing other strings on that (will we be able to save Aerith? WTF is going on with Zack? Yo Sephiroth, you up to no good but what kind of no good?).

Again, what makes these good ideas vs. a bad idea? If we have Future Sephiroth in this game and present Sephiroth, or some shenanigans therein, there's a major villain the player has no connection to that's playing a role here. Future Seph? Never met this Cloud. Present Seph? The player has been dealing with Future Seph! Right now we have the puzzle box. Often, if we're told what's coming out of that puzzle box when it opens can sound pretty janky. It's all in context.

"Ghosts will repeatedly force the player on the same path as the original for an unexplained reason."
o.O

It's also why Zack can't interact with Cloud up until after the Lifestream scene. Because he knows what happened and can explain. But would it help Cloud? Would it feel fulfilling for the players who has spent hours with Cloud Strife? No. What's fulfilling is that Cloud confronts his fears himself. That he is able to accept himself because of a long introspection with Tifa's cheerings for him (yes it's important for Cloud that she would be there).

Let's return to this once we get Rebirth and possibly Part III. Let's see where Zack interacts with Cloud and co. If we're following the original trajectory, we won't get the Lifestream Scene in Rebirth and so Zack won't ever cross paths with Cloud. The trailer hints that this isn't the case. We'll have to see. I'm not giving the devs these constrains.

This is why the idea of us playing a clone is, at least for FFVIIR, mind-boggling. It would be such a BAD writing and I don't believe that the devs are going to throw everyone under the bus for the sake of "shocking people".

I really don't think it's much worse than anything else fans have put forth in any front. There's good and bad in in a lot of ideas, it really comes down to the execution. I'm not going to sit here and swear what they're doing is bad, or swear that a direction would be bad. I expect them to do great things here. Period.

 

[Eerie]

I'm sorry, I thought this conversation was finished, not because you'd agree, but obviously because we don't see even. You believe a writer can write anything in his story, I believe he must follow rules, especially on a series - world building, character building, engagement, etc. Your proposition just shit on all of that so just let's stay there.

 

[Leafonthebreeze]

I don't think it shits on anything? The idea of clone Cloud and real Cloud merging in the lifestream sounds like an interesting way of handling things, and could also work if we have two timeline Clouds, where neither is a clone. If there is a clone, Clone Cloud could have actual Cloud's memories thanks to Jenova mimicry and then we get a new angle on the core FFVII themes of identity, resolved by the two combining in the lifestream. I don't know if that's what we're gonna get (and it's probably unlikely) but I don't think it's a theory that needs discussion shutting down, any more than anyone's theories do.

 

[Roger]

And Remake devs pulled it off.

Understand that that's a completely subjective opinion. You could hate what they end up doing with Rebirth and some other player might feel they pulled that off too.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Understand that that's a completely subjective opinion. You could hate what they end up doing with Rebirth and some other player might feel they pulled that off too.

If the goal was to make people excited about iconic scenes being remade while also keeping them on their toes about what’s next, I think it’s fair to use the largely positive reception to the game as a metric for whether or not the devs pulled off what they set out to do

 

[Wol]

If the goal was to make people excited about iconic scenes being remade while also keeping them on their toes about what’s next, I think it’s fair to use the largely positive reception to the game as a metric for whether or not the devs pulled off what they set out to do

Not exactly. Because the biggest relevant changes are made only at the last chapter. The KH jank is all there.
If I go by all the previous chapters I also think the game is great but that doesn't mean nothing about if they can pull off new additions (actually, they felt bad).

All the new stuff coming from Compilation or Remake failed to live up to OGs quality, for the most part.

 

[LNK]

All the new stuff coming from Compilation or Remake failed to live up to OGs quality, for the most part.

I disagree. If you compare the Remake to the first Midgar section, Remake surpassed OG, easily

 

[Wol]

I disagree. If you compare the Remake to the first Midgar section, Remake surpassed OG, easily

Because the Midgar section follows closely OG, adding filler to it, extending it, but still faithfully using OG as a basis (and that's +80% of the game). When they try to add new ideas, is when they mess up imo. Last chapter is KH jank storytelling.

 

[Golden Ear]

I actually prefer Remake's Midgar to OG's Midgar, but at the same time the two games are intrinsically linked for me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The plot changes are supplemental add-ons, not subtractions. The core themes, events and depictions are there and heavily fleshed out in an incredible way. Nothing can change or deny that. The OG's depiction of Midgar at the same point of the story was nice, but too thin and brief, especially in light of its potential . The Remake & Intermission just simply rectify that.

The only thing that truly rubs me wrong was the loss of the blood and death from Jenova's break out. That's... The only missing "flaw" for me. They tried, and it had some nice tension with the monsters & goop, but there's an example of the Remake missing something.

 

[Ite]

The plot changes are supplemental add-ons, not subtractions. The core themes, events and depictions are there and heavily fleshed out in an incredible way. Nothing can change or deny that.

Are we really gonna go round and round with this? I say over and over that to me and countless others, Remake took a dump on the core themes and events, and you keep saying that it’s not a position that ppl are taking??

Disagreeing with the position is your privelege, but saying that the game doesn’t deliberately take actions that create the position is simply false.

 

[Eerie]

I don't think it shits on anything? The idea of clone Cloud and real Cloud merging in the lifestream sounds like an interesting way of handling things, and could also work if we have two timeline Clouds, where neither is a clone. If there is a clone, Clone Cloud could have actual Cloud's memories thanks to Jenova mimicry and then we get a new angle on the core FFVII themes of identity, resolved by the two combining in the lifestream. I don't know if that's what we're gonna get (and it's probably unlikely) but I don't think it's a theory that needs discussion shutting down, any more than anyone's theories do.

It literally shits on Cloud's progression as a character, the bonds he makes with everyone - and not only Aerith - on what the game shows you (true Cloud telling him how he only scrapped his knees back then), on what the devs say (true Cloud actually does show up for Tifa in her resolution scene, and his true personality also comes up around her). Literally everything is screaming that this cannot be a clone, if it's a clone it shits on every party member, on the player, but most of all, on Cloud himself. Like, you cut off the link we've made during TWO games with Cloud if you go "haha kidding it's just a clone after all!"

What's the idea behind this except "OMG shocking!"? There's no point. ZERO. It's not the story of FFVII. Why would we care more for real Cloud than for his clone? The party members would maybe prefer his clone with whom they've created bonds and trust?

People just go for the most shocking theory, really, they don't step back and look at the entirety of the story that's being told and why it's interesting.

 

[Leafonthebreeze]

To be clear, i think it's really unlikely that they are going to go with the clone Cloud idea, but I think you're taking a very narrow view of what could be done with a clone Cloud, that it would be played for shock value or a "haha gotcha" moment for the player, or that a clone Cloud is automatically completely worthless as a character. I think that there's interesting stuff that could be done with, for example, a clone with Cloud's memories (real or false) and a "real" Cloud with no memories. Especially if they come to connect at the end, and sort themselves out in the lifestream, it leads to really interesting questions about what makes a person, which truly is the real Cloud. You still end up with a "true Cloud" at the end, Tifa still helps him sort his memories, Aerith still has to sort through the existential question of who she's in love with. The gang still meet and make a connection with who they think is Cloud, and it isn't that different thematically to the og where they're connecting to a fake persona built on Zack. Again, I really highly doubt this is where they're going with this, I just disagree that it's a plot point that would just be for shock value or that it goes against the themes of ffvii. If anything it takes the identity theme and makes it way more literal and on the nose.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Are we really gonna go round and round with this? I say over and over that to me and countless others, Remake took a dump on the core themes and events, and you keep saying that it’s not a position that ppl are taking??

Disagreeing with the position is your privelege, but saying that the game doesn’t deliberately take actions that create the position is simply false.

How do you know the core themes are dumped on when the series isnt even half way done? You have an assumption. Unless you're aware of something I'm not, to somehow pre-emptively accuse it all of being shat on is your prejudgment. I'm going by what's here so far. Not a theory of what's to come.