Something's wrong, and I'm gonna say it - FFXIII Spoilers abound

[Max Payne]

Since Mako keeps directing me to this thread, I suppose I will have my say.

Star Ocean and the Tales series, despite being good games, do not have
the graphical quality that FF games have.

This isn't really true for this generation of games, Star Ocean 4, save the weird artstyle used for the faces looks fantastic both technically and artistically when it comes to the towns and environments featured therein. Lost Odyssey was no slouch either, and it featured beautiful visuals too, and plays exactly like an old school FF title, sans having an overworld.

FFXIII isn't really doing anything that hasn't been done before this generation when it comes to 3d architecture and visuals. The biggest leg the game has on any other is the artists that modeled the characters(Even though RE5 has incredible character models). Most Western studios are still behind Japanese when it comes to artistically modeling characters.

The way that SE renders cutscenes and even the battle sequences (how fast paced they are isn't easy to do) leaves very little room for them to render something that takes up as much space as towns.

Animation and special effect data does not take that much room, especially with the numerous compression methods that cause little to no loss of quality, that coupled with being on a bluray makes it all the more clear. If it was an issue of disc space they they could have easily omitted many of the CG cutscenes which were reported as being uncompressed. They should have rendered all of the cutscenes in-engine like most current gen developers have. At this level of 3d quality Cgi cutscenes are a relic from a bygone age of development and serve little purpose past being unnecessary pretty. The graphics of the game are certainly good enough that they don't need prerendered cutscenes in the excess they are present in this game.

It's not simple "laziness";

Not exactly laziness, but moreso the willingness to go the extra mile for the sake of quality.You either do the work, or you don't. Ubisoft built a completely free roaming version of Venice and Florence within 2 years, and not once did they complain or blame the hardware for whatever issues they may have had. Are a few barely interactive towns with a handful of npcs really so difficult?

Naughty Dog built Uncharted 2 within a bloody year, and managed to put together some of the most beautiful and artistically stunning environments that I've ever seen in a game, with hand painted textures. They did this on a console that developers have cited difficulty with on several occasions as well.

SE's XIII team cited the difficulty of working on HD consoles several times, this isn't exactly anything new. It's also likely that SE couldn't take putting the game off any longer and opted to avoid a similar situation like XII's. If building HD assets is so hard for them, then they should hire artists that have a wider experience with HD consoles and their tools of development. Then again I haven't kept abreast with SE's current financial situation so they just might not have the money for that sort of thing. Pooling all their resources into one project might have helped with that.

SE doesn't halfass towns, as nice as it would have been to have them it just wasn't something that was really worth the effort.

Broadening a game's scope and allowing a player to connect with the world on a deeper level isn't worth the effort in an rpg now? Wow. Part of what made me love old school FF games was the exploration of all these unique locales each with their own art direction and personality. I remember when I first came upon My Blue Heaven in FF8. This strange little tower out in the middle of nowhere with such eerie music.

Still one of my favorite experiences. It's the same with Midgar, has there ever been a more depressing place to live in an RPG? They didn't pull that off by forcing the player through a series of linear locales with nothing but monsters to kill.

The awakward makeout scenes in ME2 were sort of odd to me because of the outdated looking in-game graphics.

I'm sorry what? Mass Effect 2 has dated graphics now?

Spoiler

Yeah, dated is the word. Those scenes look "awakard" because of the animation, not the game's assets. If ME2 falters in any way it's the animation, which at times can look robotic and stiff.

In defense of FFXIII, it has been years in the making. WRPGs are at the top of their game now, but back when FFXIII was first being developed they weren't nearly as popular as they are now (if I recall, I'm too lazy to double check my dates and remember).

WRPGS have been pretty damn popular since D & D was played on table tops. Morrowind had a fucking huge following a couple years ago, same with Neverwinter Nights. Just not so much with the FF crowd. They're just that much more popular these days as they've evolved so much that they have much broader appeal now.

FFXIII isn't even pushing the envelope like most FF games have in past, perhaps as a direct result of the team's troubles with HD consoles.

Let's take a look at some screens shall we?

Spoiler

Mmmm, delicious jaggies,flat textures, and dull lighting marring otherwise great character modeling. Gotta love that water back there too.

Now here's a screen of FFXII with boosted resolution and anti aliasing.

Spoiler

FFXII holds up pretty well, though it suffer from much of the same issues, being an older title. I'm not saying FFXIII looks terrible or anything, it looks better than several games do, especially in certain locations that I won't mention for spoilers. It really does shine in those areas, but I've never really been able to say an FF game just looked "good" and not "phenomenal" at it's time of release.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm going to play FFXIII and I'm sure I will like something about it. But I will not deny that they took a big step down in quality compared to past games as far as I'm concerned. I've watched the story from beginning to end and I seem to have outgrown the variety of cliches and stereotypically anime characters(Snow is so painfully shonen, with his constant "You gotta believe" bullshit which completely justifies Lighting's assbeatings) directed towards 13 to 17 year olds. Then again FF games never had mindblowing writing, it was always more about the adventure than anything else.

At this point I'm most interested in the battle system and art direction. I don't mind linearity, all FF games are linear. Even Mass Effect and Dragon age are pretty damn linear, with many of your choices being superficial at best. I just like exploring these worlds and interacting with their people. Doesn't stop them from being awesome.


With Kitase admitting that this is one of the issues they're facing with an FF7 remake, I am a bit worried. Here's hoping Nomura proves me wrong with Versus, after how great BBS(gameplaywise, plot is still a trainwreck) turned out.

I don't blame SE for trying something different, I just wish they didn't take out a lot of what makes FF appeal to me in the process. I don't really want an RPG with LESS content. I play these game to immerse myself in another world, not for throwaway entertainment akin to what you get from most films. I think I could forgive FFXIII for diverging so much from the beaten path, as long as it doesn't become the standard for future iterations in the franchise. Cuz frankly for all my bitching, few RPGS have the same magic FF games do, I don't really want them taking the risk of losing that magic.

Sorry for going on so much folks, I just needed to get that out.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dacon just won the thread folks. And its great to see you.

 

[Strangelove]

NPCs, as in non-playable characters, who are minor characters in the story. Zangan is still a minor, NPC. FFVII had numerous NPCs who were important to the story who you had the option of talking to and choosing what you said to them. That's what made it so interesting and worth replaying.

Yes, the couple by the train, and the old guy staring at the rocket are NPCs. But so are Mukki, Zangan, and Yuffie's dad.

In that case, you're got Sera, Dajh, the members of Nora, Hope's family. NPCs who have some connection/importance/role in the story.

There's just a smaller number of nameless NPCs.

Vagrant story

You don't have a single town and very, very few NPCs, but it still lends itself to its RPG roots by allowing you to talk to your party members, buying items, exploring the vast world you're in, and having one of the most unique battle systems ever.

Even if I did find some aspects to be kind of tedious, I did like it and will go back and finish it.

I don't think FFXIII is perfect or anything, or that there are no games that did things better. I noticed some of the flat textures that Dacon mentioned. There's scenes that could have made interesting sections to play instead of being a CGI scene, as nice as they look (I think Tres mentioned about this as well). I don't get why, on a next gen console, Libra/Scan just shows you a still image of the monster instead of letting you rotate the model like even FFVIII did.

But after the way people were going on about it, I just didn't feel it was as terrible as people make it to be.

It's less of the actual exclusion of NPCs that I'm railing against, it's the principle. "THEY WEREN'T THAT GREAT ANYWAY I WON'T MISS 'EM" is a scary thing to apply the slippery slope principle to. I fear in future SE games we'll be talking about how they removed battles and people will be going "BATTLES WERE TEDIOUS ANYWAY WON'T MISS 'EM"

How many things are they gonna take away before someone goes 'hey wtfs going on here'. I'm not saying this is what's happening now, but hey, something to consider.

But it's jumping to the conclusion that because one game did it, everyone else at Square will follow suit. The story focused approach of the Cocoon section was due to Toriyama's tastes, with the more free-roaming Pulse section being more in line with the battle planner's tastes.

It might be the standard for Toriyama's next game, but there's still other staff who might do things differently. Maybe that battle planner will get a chance to lead a project and it'll be full of large-scale environments to explore. Where as Toriyama's could keep with the story-driven style he likes. Versus XIII was mentioned in this thread as having explorable towns, so it looks like others at Square are at least going to try.

FFXIII is just, for now, one game that didn't have these things.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In that case, you're got Sera, Dajh, the members of Nora, Hope's family. NPCs who have some connection/importance/role in the story.

There's just a smaller number of nameless NPCs.

Well I'm glad there are plot relevant NPCs, but I'm also talking about NPCs that are just important to scenes, or are just unique individuals themselves. Like Dio, Mukki, etc. Memorable secondary characters.

Even if I did find some aspects to be kind of tedious, I did like it and will go back and finish it.

Good man.

I don't think FFXIII is perfect or anything, or that there are no games that did things better. I noticed some of the flat textures that Dacon mentioned. There's scenes that could have made interesting sections to play instead of being a CGI scene, as nice as they look (I think Tres mentioned about this as well). I don't get why, on a next gen console, Libra/Scan just shows you a still image of the monster instead of letting you rotate the model like even FFVIII did.

See, its little things like that, that psis me off because there is no reason for that. That's just laziness! Why..? Why cut corners like that? The fact FFXIII is really only in 720p and not true HD, except for the cutscenes irritates me too.

The little things add up hito. All those little things that you don't think are that big a deal add up.

But it's jumping to the conclusion that because one game did it, everyone else at Square will follow suit. The story focused approach of the Cocoon section was due to Toriyama's tastes, with the more free-roaming Pulse section being more in line with the battle planner's tastes.

SE's content in terms of gaming has been lacking. It's been a gradual shift. The Compilation spinoffs, Ivalice spinoffs, I never thought much of it because each of those games were on smaller scale handhelds, but they've basically been taking the the path of least resistance in terms of development. This is a disturbing trend that finally expressed itself in a main installment game. On a PS3. A platform that should not have to worry about such limits.

For Christ sakes, you got the developers saying its too hard to render towns now? This is definitely not jumping to conclusions. They're all but said "we'd have done it but we cba" and all they need is the cookie monster smiley.

 

[Max Payne]

Tbh I think it has less to do with being on an HD console and more of a deliberate attempt to streamline the game and make it more "cinematic" regardless of what's been said. After the reports of removed content, it seems likely.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tbh I think it has less to do with being on an HD console and more of a deliberate attempt to streamline the game and make it more "cinematic" regardless of what's been said. After the reports of removed content, it seems likely.

Still reeks of laziness to me, since they're coming up with excuses that make no sense, to justify their direction.

 

[Strangelove]

Well I'm glad there are plot relevant NPCs, but I'm also talking about NPCs that are just important to scenes, or are just unique individuals themselves. Like Dio, Mukki, etc. Memorable secondary characters.

Then FFXIII does lack those. I don't really know what else to say on the matter beyond what's already been said

See, its little things like that, that psis me off because there is no reason for that. That's just laziness! Why..? Why cut corners like that? The fact FFXIII is really only in 720p and not true HD, except for the cutscenes irritates me too.

The little things add up hito. All those little things that you don't think are that big a deal add up.

See, I don't know about the stuff like it running at 720p (I can't tell the difference between 720 and 1080, to be honest ), or other technical things.

It's not like hearing some of this stuff doesn't making me a bit disappointed. Cutting out areas in Bodhum or Nautilus is disappointing, because at least in Bodhum it seems like that would have taken extra story/background/world building with it, since that's Lightning's home and where the whole story starts.

But even so I still enjoyed it. Which is what I was paying for.

SE's content in terms of gaming has been lacking. It's been a gradual shift. The Compilation spinoffs, Ivalice spinoffs, I never thought much of it because each of those games were on smaller scale handhelds, but they've basically been taking the the path of least resistance in terms of development. This is a disturbing trend that finally expressed itself in a main installment game. On a PS3. A platform that should not have to worry about such limits.

For Christ sakes, you got the developers saying its too hard to render towns now? This is definitely not jumping to conclusions. They're all but said "we'd have done it but we cba" and all they need is the cookie monster smiley.

Given the scale of the environments in the game (and not just Gran Pulse, but locations in Cocoon as well), I don't really think they couldn't do it. Time seemed to be the major factor against it. They kept mentioning how the development had taken a long time and the limited period they had to work in.

But they wanted to concentrate on the story and the battles, so sized down other elements like towns.

 

[Max Payne]

Those areas that were cut out could be put back into the game via DLC, which Kitase pretty much confirmed a few days ago.

If so I hope it's free, since a lot of Uncharted and Mass Effects DLC turned out to be free.

 

[Tetsujin]

And its the only FF that actually has combat take place in real time

Mako, FFXII still has no real time battle.
Just because you can move your party leader in real time (which has no effect on the battle) doesn't mean it's a real time system.
Characters still have to wait for bars to fill up to do stuff. Not real time.

 

[Winter]

why you only reply to me

i feel sad

Those scenes look "awakard" because of the animation, not the game's assets. If ME2 falters in any way it's the animation, which at times can look robotic and stiff.

This is what I meant, pretty much. Bad word choice. Nonetheless, it looks faaaar more awkward (at least to me) than the character movements in FFXIII.

Now here's a screen of FFXII with boosted resolution and anti aliasing.

I'm sorry, all I can see is painted on abs.



Look, my final point here is that FFXIII is not a "sign of the times" or the "end of the world", nor do I really give a shit how much "everyone" apparently hates it. I think it looks fun. I will play it. I have to agree with hito here, it's not perfect. That's not what I'm trying to argue.

But it's far from a bad game, and it's far from being some sort of sign that FF is going downhill. I thought (despite how much I ended up liking the game, in the end) FFVIII had some really fucktarded aspects to it. I won't lie; I was worried that the next few FF games may not appeal to me or that I wouldn't enjoy them like I enjoyed, for instance, IV and VII.

Yet without fail a few years later X was released, and to this day it remains one of my favorite games in the series.

tl;dr there's gonna be games in the series that don't appeal to everyone. This is Final Fantasy.

this will probably be my last post in here because I want to await XIII's release in peace. In the meantime I will be playing XII because I never bought it when it was released.

 

[Max Payne]

why you only reply to me

Your post contained many of the popular stances presented in the debate. Count yourself special in the fact that it made it one of the most relevant.

This is what I meant, pretty much. Bad word choice. Nonetheless, it looks faaaar more awkward (at least to me) than the character movements in FFXIII.

No, it doesn't. Sure, it does look a little weird, but not that bad. Not when you scrutinize FFXIII for the same reason. It suffers from static and robotic animations in many places too, but it's much easier to dismiss when you have so many mocapped cutscenes that look natural.

The same can be said of Mass Effect too though, the conversations are very well presented. Many games this generation lack organic animations though, it's not exactly an issue constrained to these games.

I'm sorry, all I can see is painted on abs.

Sorry you're so visually challenged? I mean it takes quite a bit to disregard all that is presented in those screenshots, but ok. It's your right to ignore that.

I really give a shit how much "everyone" apparently hates it. I think it looks fun. I will play it.

You really shouldn't devote your time to debating the various aspects of the game then, it's a waste of your energies, especially if you don't give a shit. I don't really think Mako and Mog constitute "everyone" either.

In fact it seems that the popular consensus is that it's not so bad, or folks are reserving judgment till next month when the game is readily available. Though I wonder just how many people will be able to given the whole HD console thing.

But it's far from a bad game,

That's not what the debate was about though was it? It's that it's a lesser Final Fantasy game. Which it is. There's a notable downgrade in content from past iterations of the series. Even when compared to it's closet relation in linearity, FFX which still managed to feature a bevy of explorable environments including a handful of towns.

and it's far from being some sort of sign that FF is going downhill.

Except it is, this, coupled the complaints presented by Kitase about the difficulty producing HD graphics demonstrate a clear implication that future FF game may go down the same path as evidenced by his comments about an FF7 remake.

However, Nomura may just put the lie to all of this with FFXIII Versus, which has been said to have an overworld, and airships.

tl;dr there's gonna be games in the series that don't appeal to everyone. This is Final Fantasy.

No shit? That's no reason at all to excuse valid complaints about limited content in an expensive piece of entertainment. If you want to dismiss it as differing tastes, then sure, good for you. But that's hardly any reason for those of us who expect more value out of games from such talented folks to hold our tongues.

It's to be expected really, when you set such a high standard, people will hold your future endeavors to it. This is doubly true for an industry like this, where everyone is constantly attempting to move forward and push boundaries in an effort to one up the competition.

this will probably be my last post in here because I want to await XIII's release in peace. In the meantime I will be playing XII

I suppose that would be best.

 

[Winter]

No, it doesn't. Sure, it does look a little weird, but not that bad. Not when you scrutinize FFXIII for the same reason. It suffers from static and robotic animations in many places too, but it's much easier to dismiss when you have so many mocapped cutscenes that look natural.

True, I have seen a few instances of this. But man, there's a scene when Lightning and Fang have this whole conversation and it looked so nice, the animation was just really natural and fluid. It wasn't a SUPAR SHINY CUTSCENE either. I was pretty impressed. I would go find it but I am feeling tired.

Sorry you're so visually challenged? I mean it takes quite a bit to disregard all that is presented in those screenshots, but ok. It's your right to ignore that.

Haha, no, you were right. You can't disregard visual evidence like that. I was actually kidding, 80% of about 75% of the posts I make I am not taking anything seriously, ever. those are some serious statistics man

So, occasionally FFXII looks better in battle. Or all the time, I cba to check. Either way, I sure do like FFXIII's pretty cutscenes. Even the non-HD ones. And the battle still looks fun.

graphix

You really shouldn't devote your time to debating the various aspects of the game then, it's a waste of your energies, especially if you don't give a shit. I don't really think Mako and Mog constitute "everyone" either.

I guess the reason I keep coming back is because I'm sick of the way this thread makes it seem like we're horrible for liking FFXIII. Regardless of whether or not it's "up to par" or whatever, it's a video game and I want to be able to just like it without feeling like its some crime against the industry.

I guess it's more that I shouldn't give a shit, but I do.

That's not what the debate was about though was it? It's that it's a lesser Final Fantasy game. Which it is. There's a notable downgrade in content from past iterations of the series. Even when compared to it's closet relation in linearity, FFX which still managed to feature a bevy of explorable environments including a handful of towns.

I guess the whole argument her is "was SE actually trying something new or are they just lazy". Because from my perspective it's not "less of a game"; it's just different. It offers me something different from the other FFs, and this time, it doesn't include towns.

That's no reason at all to excuse valid complaints about limited content in an expensive piece of entertainment. If you want to dismiss it as differing tastes, then sure, good for you.

See, this is what I mean. Don't belittle me just because I like a game that you don't feel is "up to par". I feel like me liking a certain game makes me some sort of inferior gamer.

It wouldn't be so well-liked if it wasn't at least a good game, so... why is it not having towns some sort of laziness? If they were a GLARING OMISSION (which, from what I have seen and from how hito has described it, they weren't) then I guess I'd understand, but most of the people I know who've played it didn't really notice. So... towns matter a lot to some people, you included. Isn't that, you know, a matter of taste?

just as a note I know FFXIII has glaring flaws, but I'm just not really seeing how we can write it off just yet at this stage of the game.

every time I read this thread I feel like an idiot for being so excited to play it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I didn't the first time either, because I never bothered with them. But when I tried them again, it actually was fun curbstomping Ruby WEAPON with physical attacks that dealt 9999 each time.

It is quite amusing to see it in YouTube videos. Might have to try it someday myself.

It's quality over quantity dude, and it's really the opposite of what one might think.

Yes, and this is the first time you've gotten lesbians in an FF, and they're high-quality bitches at that!

Oh, you're ranting about something else.

Would you rather have a handful of throwaway NPCs that say shit repeatedly and have no real interaction or continual contact with the characters in the world setting, with voices.

Or would you rather have numerous, indepth NPCs that have dialogue that changes repeatedly throughout the course of the game, and can have continual contact with the character, sans voice?

A voiced version of what you described in the second paragraph -- which has been done with characters like Rin and O'aka in FFX. You can't swindle me into accepting your false dilemma, Mako.

I'll pick the latter. I don't need Villager #247 telling me in a shitty voice how they hate my guts one time and never see them again.

It's all about Villager #183 for you, isn't it? Asshole.

I'll admit when I'm wrong...

::waits::

Okay. I'm sure it makes sense in FFXIII's setting but all I have to do is point to the creator's own mouths and quotes that said they were gonna include towns and people to interact with, but it was just soooooo hard, that they had to scrap them. It still is a shit excuse and lazy development. You can't spin it away.

I'm a formally educated journalist. I can spin this shit any way I want to.

But, no, I don't disagree that there was a great deal of misplaced priorities involved. I wouldn't call it laziness so much as what I described in the previous sentence: misplaced priorities.

If the environments and even the FMVs looked as good as even FFX's, they could have moved from there to other things. I do agree that the graphics got too much consideration here.

Why don't you tell me more about the dungeon, its purpose, and why you go there, aside from the obvious 'level grinding and looking for treasure?'

Well, it's the final dungeon, and you go there to finish the game.

I know, it just still seems rather bizarre on the surface.

So they try something new and you go after them like a mob going after l'Cie? ::shakes head::

Are you serious? You killed marks because it was your job as a member of Clan Centurio, and you were exterminating monsters that either were dangerous to society, or had done something to a person who put the mark on it. You were a bounty hunter, and each mark had a story behind its creation, and why it needed to be killed. It was one of the most engaging mini-games in FF history. It certainly doesn't compare to you basically running around in the wild, killing shit.

You still get asked to do it.

But, yes, I agree that it's not as awesome, and for the reasons you described.

....And that's another thing now that I think about it. Who is commissioning these hunts for Lightning and co. to partake in? If you're so hated by the populace, and interact with so little people...who are you killing these monsters for? Who made the list of hunts? What is the pay off?

You'll see. They do have a story-related reason, though.

If you must know now:

Spoiler

I think you're completing the foci of l'Cie who failed in their missions.

And the pay-off is that you get good stuff for doing it that allows you to upgrade your gear.

You're a dork.

Funny how FFXII had that text in the form of the Clan Primer and it ALSO had room for NPCs and shit.

So basically FFXIII has a watered down version of the Clan Primer and Sage Lores. It's like they copied the shit that made FFXII great and did it half assed.

What hito said.

When you say NPCs, I was thinking more along the lines of 'that couple by the train in Midgar' or 'old guy who looks at the rocket in Rocket Town'. Those ones in bold seem more like minor/sub characters to me. They're either involved in the story (Cloud's mum, Priscilla, Zangan), or play some gameplay-related function (which could include Mukki and Big Bro for that matter, since they give you ).

NPCs, as in non-playable characters, who are minor characters in the story. Zangan is still a minor, NPC. FFVII had numerous NPCs who were important to the story who you had the option of talking to and choosing what you said to them. That's what made it so interesting and worth replaying.

Yes, the couple by the train, and the old guy staring at the rocket are NPCs. But so are Mukki, Zangan, and Yuffie's dad.

They may not hang around for you to talk to whenever you want, but FFXIII does have secondary characters comparable to Zangan and Yuffie's dad. Maybe not as many as FFVII had, but it has them.

For that matter, you couldn't talk to Zangan or Mukki anytime you wanted to either.

It's to be expected really, when you set such a high standard, people will hold your future endeavors to it.

So if a brief step is taken back, why hold future endeavors to that instead of concluding that more is likely to be done in the future -- since it has been done before?

There's scenes that could have made interesting sections to play instead of being a CGI scene, as nice as they look (I think Tres mentioned about this as well).

God, yes. Basically every time they're in an airship, you should have gotten to do something more than watch. Same deal with the highway chase in Eden.

I don't get why, on a next gen console, Libra/Scan just shows you a still image of the monster instead of letting you rotate the model like even FFVIII did.

FFX-2 did as well, though you had to upgrade it to get to that point. Sort of a "You can look up the girl's skirts if you want, but you've got to work for it" kind of reward.

But after the way people were going on about it, I just didn't feel it was as terrible as people make it to be.

Agreed.

I still say it has some of the best characterization and character interaction yet. It's going to blow people away with that alone.

That, graphics and music are its strong suits in a game that, yes, has some weaknesses and even some steps backward. But those things it does well still make it pretty damn impressive.

But it's jumping to the conclusion that because one game did it, everyone else at Square will follow suit. The story focused approach of the Cocoon section was due to Toriyama's tastes, with the more free-roaming Pulse section being more in line with the battle planner's tastes.

It might be the standard for Toriyama's next game, but there's still other staff who might do things differently. Maybe that battle planner will get a chance to lead a project and it'll be full of large-scale environments to explore. Where as Toriyama's could keep with the story-driven style he likes. Versus XIII was mentioned in this thread as having explorable towns, so it looks like others at Square are at least going to try.

FFXIII is just, for now, one game that didn't have these things.

QFFT.

Must everything be a "sign of things to come"? Was Vagrant Story?

Which scene? I think I know the one you're talking about.

I don't know which one you're thinking about, but the one I was thinking about was:

Spoiler

In Palumpolum, when that mob comes to try to kill Snow and Hope after he tried to help a girl and Snow destroys some shit, then Hope goes and picks up the little girl's Carbuncle toy and says "sorry" and puts the toy on the rubble. And then I went and found a link. I can't even say why I like it, I just like scenes that seem sad, and Hope for some reason

That's the one I was thinking of. Great scene!

I really liked Hope's part in that as well, and, yeah, he is quite likable in spite of all expectations.

every time I read this thread I feel like an idiot for being so excited to play it.

You're not. Just means you'll have a richer, more fulfilled life than Dawson and Pacey.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Don't think Mako has cried about mentioned this yet, but it may go some lengths toward explaining some of the lacking elements of FFXIII:
http://www.vg247.com/2010/01/31/kitase-ffxiii-ps2-development-cost-us-a-year-and-a-half/

Apparently the development team wasted a year and a half of FFXIII's development time when they had been initially designing it for the PS2.

 

[Makoeyes987]

A voiced version of what you described in the second paragraph -- which has been done with characters like Rin and O'aka in FFX. You can't swindle me into accepting your false dilemma, Mako.

Well I was just using FFXIII as an example. I know both can exist if done properly. I was just making a point.

But, no, I don't disagree that there was a great deal of misplaced priorities involved. I wouldn't call it laziness so much as what I described in the previous sentence: misplaced priorities.

If the environments and even the FMVs looked as good as even FFX's, they could have moved from there to other things. I do agree that the graphics got too much consideration here.

You're much more forgiving with this than I am. When you've got Kitase and Toriyama saying it was too hard to include towns with next gen hardware, the sheer absurdity of that statement makes me conclude their pulling excuses out of their ass to justify "cba."

Well, it's the final dungeon, and you go there to finish the game.

Oops, wasn't paying attention. Well I want to know more about the *optional* dungeon.

Another great optional dungeon/location was the Great Crystal of Giruvegan. Damn that was an awesome area.

So they try something new and you go after them like a mob going after l'Cie? ::shakes head::

It's not about it being new, its about it having content to match. You keep trying to compare Vagrant Story to FFXIII and the comparison makes no sense because while VS told an isolated tale over the span of a day, regarding political intrigue and one man's solo mission, they didn't skimp out on the gameplay at all. FFXIII subverted many of the RPG elements without shoring up any other RPG aspects at all. You don't get as much of a customizable battle system, and equipment system as VS is.

You'll see. They do have a story-related reason, though.

If you must know now:

Spoiler

I think you're completing the foci of l'Cie who failed in their missions.

And the pay-off is that you get good stuff for doing it that allows you to upgrade your gear.

I kinda figured that'd be the case. Well that at least makes storyline sense.

They may not hang around for you to talk to whenever you want, but FFXIII does have secondary characters comparable to Zangan and Yuffie's dad. Maybe not as many as FFVII had, but it has them.

Well I'm sure it would have some, I mean there has to be some form of secondary characters to carry the story.

For that matter, you couldn't talk to Zangan or Mukki anytime you wanted to either.

When they're around at that point of the story you can, and they play very important roles in the story despite being so secondary.

So if a brief step is taken back, why hold future endeavors to that instead of concluding that more is likely to be done in the future -- since it has been done before?

Don't even, Tres. This isn't just a brief step back. This was a long way coming, and what I defended before is now tangibly proof that SE has gotten progressively lazier. Do I need to cite DC for you? Or FFXII RW? Or the fact that SE has basically been taking the easy way out, keeping themselves on the "safe side" of handheld console development to avoid the effort of major console title making? This isn't just a brief step back, its another sign of SE laziness.

God, yes. Basically every time they're in an airship, you should have gotten to do something more than watch. Same deal with the highway chase in Eden.

It's shit like this I'm talking about. That's sad.

FFX-2 did as well, though you had to upgrade it to get to that point. Sort of a "You can look up the girl's skirts if you want, but you've got to work for it" kind of reward.

That...was actually fun and amusing.

I still say it has some of the best characterization and character interaction yet. It's going to blow people away with that alone.

That, graphics and music are its strong suits in a game that, yes, has some weaknesses and even some steps backward. But those things it does well still make it pretty damn impressive.

You and your love for that Shonen Jump hero Snow.

Graphics and music are nice, but that alone doesn't make a game. It needs meat. If all a game has going for it is that, and its characterization, that's not enough. Hell, characterization is pretty subjective, so if someone can't even appreciate that, and its already a hollow game, that's a pretty bad start.

Must everything be a "sign of things to come"? Was Vagrant Story?

I can't believe you'd try to compare FFXIII to VS. Shame on you.

 

[Max Payne]

It wouldn't be so well-liked if it wasn't at least a good game, so...

Well, a lot of people like Dirge of Cerberus which was widely panned and pretty much not a very good game. A variety of opinions never really is that good a gauge of quality. This is a Final Fantasy game, it's GUARANTEED to cause split opinions in the community.

why is it not having towns some sort of laziness?

You'll have to blame Kitase for whining about creating HD assets and how hard it is when most other developers haven't had such difficulty. I doubt a lot of folks could boil it down to that if they had kept their traps shut on that account.

If they were a GLARING OMISSION (which, from what I have seen and from how hito has described it, they weren't) then I guess I'd understand, but most of the people I know who've played it didn't really notice. So... towns matter a lot to some people, you included. Isn't that, you know, a matter of taste?

That doesn't change the fact that the game has considerably less content for an Final Fantasy game, which is what my primary issue, and I imagine MOG and Mako's is. We want to get our money's worth, and when it comes to content FFXIII is lacking, this isn't a matter of opinion.

It objectively is less of a game compared to previous titles, and other RPGs this generation. For a game series that has featured huge worlds with bustling populations and varieties of races and people, it surely does seem like a glaring omission.

And it's funny, I can direct you to a lot of folks that didn't like this aspect of the game and it noticeably caused them to enjoy the game less. Then again I saw a lot of folks whining about the final boss too. It's more about what people are willing to accept when it comes the content of the product they spent their money on. These people spent a LOT of money too, so they're butthurt importers.

every time I read this thread I feel like an idiot for being so excited to play it.

You shouldn't. Opinions and all that. If it's that stressful then you don't have to look at the thread at all. Someone else's feelings shouldn't have such an influence on you. Basically, don't take it so personal.

So if a brief step is taken back, why hold future endeavors to that instead of concluding that more is likely to be done in the future -- since it has been done before?

You have the creators themselves to blame for that. They've made a point of the problems they've had and how they could affect future products, such an FF7 remake.

Still, as I've said before, I have hope that Versus will prove them all wrong.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You have the creators themselves to blame for that. They've made a point of the problems they've had and how they could affect future products, such an FF7 remake.

Fair enough.

Still, as I've said before, I have hope that Versus will prove them all wrong.

Here's hoping.

 

[Max Payne]

my grammar makes me sad.

EDIT:

DOH!

 

[Strangelove]

It wasn't the difficulty of creating towns Kitase/Toriyama were complaining about, it was the workload and time needed to make towns to the level/scale of past FF games.

"It takes too long," not "it's too hard"

Haven't others said similar things, about the amount of time you need to make games in this generation being higher than past generations?

I assume/hope that now they've had experience making a game for the current generation, sorted out their software and hardware (making FFXIII also involved pretty much renewing all their equipment), it would help lower the time needed next time.

 

[Max Payne]

Pretty sure they said it was too hard in one of them links. I think.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah they did, hito.

 

[Strangelove]

Well that must have be one I didn't see (which was just the Scenario Ultimania one).

 

[Cat Rage Room]

http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Final_Fantasy_XIII/index.html

The pace at which FFXIII opens up all of these features and goes through tutorials is a bit slow for my taste. I prefer RPGs to let me take the reins ASAP, but this defect is just one example of FFXIII sacrificing gameplay for the sake of story. You may have heard rumors on the internets about FFXIII not having any towns and being basically a straight shot with practically no sidequests or content outside of dungeon crawling. Well, unfortunately, that is all true.

All the World's a Dungeon

What is left of a JRPG when you take away world map exploration, cities, random NPC interactions, side quests, mini-games, dungeon puzzles, and just generally the ability to go wherever you want when you want? You're left with character upgrading and dungeon crawling. Granted in FFXIII's case, it is very sexy and very fun dungeon crawling and character upgrading, with dozens of missions to add variety, yet still, that's basically it. Literally you're just going from map to map, virtually all of them loaded with enemies and devoid of other content, most of them disappearing into oblivion never to be seen again once completed.

It is a surprisingly sparse game. Consider that including both playable characters and NPC's, there are only twenty named characters in the plot. Consider that even with the innovative auto talk system, whereby the game avoids text boxes and uses 100% voiced dialogue, you can count on one hand the number of occasions (not revisitable locations, but occasions) where you'll even be able to interact with NPCs, and again these are almost always in the middle of battlefields. NPCs rarely say anything besides “I don't want to die!” or “Save me!” None of them lead you to any hidden quests or give up interesting secrets.

There are precious few opportunities for you to interact with other characters. Since you are basically just going from dungeon to dungeon, 90% of the dialogue is between the six protagonists. This gives FFXIII a lonely, arcade game sort of vibe. What's more with no cities, no triple triad or blitzball type games, and really nothing to do besides battle and grind endlessly, FFXIII can be exhausting.

Some have argued that FFXIII is in fact a revolutionary and progressive game for doing away with towns, which often are filled with brainless NPCs who repeat the same useless dialogue ad infinitum. To an extent this is true. It is a gutsy design choice, and the online shopping system, which does away with the need of the traditional RPG towns, is actually very cool. However when innovating, it is not enough simply to omit rusty conventions. You have to fill that space with something new, which FFXIII forgets to do. Persona 3 sacrificed a large variety of dungeons for one massive endlessly evolving one and a rich school sim game to enjoy outside of grinding. Dragon Quest IX sacrificed a team of unique story-relevant characters with individual personalities for fully customizable avatars with variable classes and skill sets. FFXIII sacrifices virtually all of the non-dungeon content, from NPC interaction to towns, in exchange for...really pretty graphics?

Minigames? Sidequests? Honestly, it's as if FFXIII considers such things to be beneath it. Indeed the game takes itself very seriously. There's no lovable idiot like Vaan around for comic relief, no random snowboarding or chocobo racing at Golden Saucer, no self-deprecatory breaking of the fourth wall like Snake's classic infinite ammo joke in Sons of Liberty. Your enjoyment ultimately comes down to whether or not the story grabs you enough to make you willing to be dragged along for the ride. And dragged along you will be since, for the first 20 – 30 hours there is literally nothing to do BUT follow the main story. You can get through much of it just pushing up on the left stick and compulsively pressing the circle button. Even after that, the digressions will be few and far between.

Replay value is FFXIII's Achilles heel. When I beat games like Fallout 3, Demon's Souls, or Star Ocean 3, almost immediately I started over to try a new route through the story, test a different character class, or sample a harder difficulty. Once the credits rolled on FFXIII, I thought, “Wow, that was a totally epic sixty hours. Well, back to Bayonetta.” Outside of a compulsive need to ogle the graphics or watch Lightning whore slap one of the characters again, there is little incentive for a second go around, particularly for folks like me who ordered the soundtrack. Dozens of SNES and PS1 JRPG's, FF Tactics, heck even FFI offers more gameplay-related incentives for a second roll in the hay.

It isn't so much an issue of linearity as most Final Fantasy games are extraordinarily linear with towns and sidequests being little more than distractions to give the illusion of variable story paths. That doesn't mean they can be cut without consequence, however. I really expected more with FFXIII. With a massive and mysterious floating city like Cocoon to adventure in, arguably the series' best battle system under its belt, a strong cast with a strong narrative, and all those years of development time, FFXIII could have been a masterpiece. The relative lack of content is my core criticism of the game.

Eeesh.

 

[Max Payne]

lolrpgfan.

Though I feel the same about content.

Then again I clocked almost 50 hours in ME2 and DA and still wanted more. I guess I'm spoiled.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, one thing I like about the view is that he's very impartial. You can tell that he went into the game giving it a fair shot and an unbiased chance.