Something's wrong, and I'm gonna say it - FFXIII Spoilers abound

[Tetsujin]

Actually, FFXIII seems like Crisis Core. Linear paths, chapters, sidemissions only consist of beating up monsters, no exploration (yeah, the tiny Midgar bit doesn't fucking count).

Except the battle system seems more fun in XIII.

 

[Super Mario]

They should've made use of the PS3's potential and made everything explorable. Like 3 guys running together and then beating the shit out of monsters and mooks.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The way I see it, great part of an RPG is about exploration. Visiting different locations, talking with NPCs, going back to these locations, etc.
A game that doesn't permit you to explore, and is completely linear by making you go through chapters, is not an RPG IMO.

It's certainly different.

It's still an RPG, though, folks. Just ... different.

Let me preface this by stating that by no means, do I want my own opinion and conclusion to have a negative effect on how anyone perceives this game. I want people to play this and/or look at the facts on their own with an open mind. I am by no means, trying to tell people what to think or ruin this experience for them.

And really no. You shouldn't forgive FFXIII. In fact, you should be even more upset considering from your perspective, they didn't learn from their mistake regarding FFIX.

To be fair, he was talking about me specifically there. XD

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess Dirge of Cerberus and Resident Evil 5 are different too.

Hell, so is Silent Hill 5.

They're just different. That's all.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, the whole 'everyone's a special little snowflake' approach to videogames doesn't help anyone. Some things just suck ass and there's no two ways about it.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah let's not give things a chance, let's just assume they suck without even trying them.

You guys are really being stupid.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm gonna make my mom a cake out of mud and leaves for her birthday, and when she asks me what the fuck it is, I'll say..

"What's wrong with you?! It's not a disgusting piece of crap! It's different! Give it a chance!"

Yeah let's not give things a chance, let's just assume they suck without even trying them.

You guys are really being stupid.

I want you to have sex with Bob Barker, right now. Go give him a chance, it might be good.

If you aren't willing to give him a chance, you're being really stupid.

 

[Dashell]

Mako just because one analogy works on something, doesn't mean it will always work.

Drake is right, every FF IS different whether you like it or not. I really don't see the problem with trying the game out before making your final decision. Tres and Hito both like it so far. Just because YOU think the game will suck doesn't mean it will and doesn't mean anyone who says it might not is wrong.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako just because one analogy works on something, doesn't mean it will always work.

Drake is right, every FF IS different whether you like it or not. I really don't see the problem with trying the game out before making your final decision. Tres and Hito both like it so far. Just because YOU think the game will suck doesn't mean it will and doesn't mean anyone who says it might not is wrong.

So then that means every FF is immune to criticism because its different.

So conceivably, if they make an FF game that is considerably sub-par compared to its previous installments, or other games within the same genre, its justified because "each FF is different?"

So that means they could never ever make a game that is inconsistent with its previous level of quality and content? And thus, it be a sign of weakness and flawed development?

Riiiight.

 

[Dashell]

No I'm saying don't judge a book but its cover and give the thing a chance.

 

[Winter]

Yeah, the whole 'everyone's a special little snowflake' approach to videogames doesn't help anyone. Some things just suck ass and there's no two ways about it.

But none of those videogames are numbered Final Fantasy games.

Numbered Final Fantasy games almost always appeal to SOMEONE. This game obviously doesn't suck SO MUCH ASS it's UNBEARABLE, because it's already gotten plenty of decent reviews.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Who the hell's judging the book by its cover?

The books been released and is being read out loud.

And people don't like the text.

What chance is there to give? Again, unless there's some vast conspiracy to purposefully misrepresent how the entire gameplay experience is played out, and what's inside the actual game, I'm doubtful that it's magically gonna sprout towns, NPCs, a difficult battle system, character customization, actual side quests aside from "kill X amount of monsters for lulz," an indepth dungeon/area/town/city/etc that's more than a straight line, and something more akin to a true RPG experience that's been done since FF1 and was done well with FFXII.

I'm highly dubious.

But none of those videogames are numbered Final Fantasy games.

Numbered Final Fantasy games almost always appeal to SOMEONE. This game obviously doesn't suck SO MUCH ASS it's UNBEARABLE, because it's already gotten plenty of decent reviews.

I would say then that speaks towards a bias regarding their target audience, really. Not any sort of objective stance in quality. Of course FF fans are gonna like FF.

Hell, there are people out there who scream that RE5 is the best Resident Evil game in the franchise. Same goes for SH5.

And those are Japanese reviews. The two in-depth Western reviews the game has gotten have not been nearly as nice. And that's saying something. I'm betting my right arm that the more reviewers who play it, the harsher the reviews will be.

 

[Dashell]

And people don't like the text.

Some do though, so it does appeal to some people. It's fine if you don't like it, really I don't have a problem with that, in fact I agree about what you and Mog said about not wanting to WATCH games, but wanting to PLAY them.

I'm just wondering how much of the game you've actually played. You said you played the demo, was it really that bad? I just think you should rent it before judging it completely. You might find something about it you enjoy.

 

[Zee]

This is actually the first Final Fantasy I've been excited for since IX. My biggest issue with the FFs I didn't like was the character development. If I don't give a shit about the characters, then why bother playing at all? So far, from what I've seen, the cast of FFXIII is one I can actually get invested in. Seriously, I don't even remember the last time I was this excited over a new FF installment, so I'm happy.

And they, if there are people out there who can find something to like about FF8, I'm sure there's going to be something we can find to like 13.

And hey, if I'm wrong and it turns out I hate it, I can always return it, problem solved. Better to try something out then just assume it's shit because someone told you it was.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If I order a New York Strawberry Cheesecake, and I'm given a coconut cream pie (and I hate coconut because it tastes like poo) why the hell does one need to eat the coconut cream pie, in order to be sure they will hate it? If it's already committed the sin of being made of coconut, and there is no conceivable way I will ever enjoy the taste of coconut, why even bother subjecting myself to it?

And bear in mind I already said I'd rent the damn game just to see it, but there's no way in hell I'll be doing what I've been doing for the past 8 years, and buying it at launch. So please do pay attention.

The one thing I've noticed about people who are forgiving FFXIII for stripping itself of anything that would make it close to being an actual contender of game/RPG of the year (which FF has been able to do for years), or an actual game that is memorable as an innovative, or well done game, is that they only care about its story. Alright, that's good for you then. I'm glad you can enjoy it for that. I ask you this then, why the hell are you playing it as a game? Why bother paying 60 dollars to just watch/play a jipped interactive movie, when you could just watch it, period? I wouldn't pay 60 dollars to see a movie in a theatre.

If the Final Fantasy series is not about making games now (which is news to me) but just telling stories and tacking on vestigal gameplay elements onto it, then you're treading dangerous ground. The franchise is gonna rot, and creativity and gameplay innovation will devolve. You keep taking whatever stuff they make and in a few years, a reckoning like Spirits Within will happen. Because all the other developers out there are in the business of making games, and doing new shit. And if a company doesn't keep up with the pack, it'll get eaten. And the only way it'll know it needs to keep up, is if its told to do so.

 

[Zee]

If the Final Fantasy series is not about making games now (which is news to me)

asldjasf ahahahha dude, were you not around for Cloud perfume?

The franchise is gonna rot, and creativity and gameplay innovation will devolve.

Were you not around for Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core?

 

[Makoeyes987]

asldjasf ahahahha dude, were you not around for Cloud perfume?

That's merchandising. Any franchise is allowed to do that.

Were you not around for Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core?

That's pretty funny you say CC wasn't a good game when most of the mechanics and design for FFXIII is pretty much in line with what CC did. CC was good for a small scale, PSP game.

DC however was a severe under achiever for being a PS2 shooting game. They suffered lukewarm sales and bad reviews for that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If I order a New York Strawberry Cheesecake, and I'm given a coconut cream pie (and I hate coconut because it tastes like poo) why the hell does one need to eat the coconut cream pie, in order to be sure they will hate it? If it's already committed the sin of being made of coconut, and there is no conceivable way I will ever enjoy the taste of coconut, why even bother subjecting myself to it?

Because you, sir, are a heathen for not liking coconut.

I ask you this then, why the hell are you playing it as a game?

It only exists as a game.

Of course, there's YouTube and Viddler.

You keep taking whatever stuff they make ...

Like CC you mean?

... and in a few years, a reckoning like Spirits Within will happen.

Which was a shame, because TSW was pretty damn good, actually. Never got the recognition it deserved in my opinion.

Because all the other developers out there are in the business of making games, and doing new shit. And if a company doesn't keep up with the pack, it'll get eaten. And the only way it'll know it needs to keep up, is if its told to do so.

You aren't wrong about this, truth be told.

 

[Zee]

You argument seems to revolve around creativity and innovation; Crisis Core was lacking in both. Weak character development, weak plot, weak dialogue. And what about rehashing the reactor incident for the third? fourth? time is innovative and creative?

Uhmyeah.

Anyway, I think someone brought this up in the thread already, but if XIII is truly horrible, then it'll go the way of DoC and end up for $14.99 on the used games rack. Simple as that!

 

[Makoeyes987]

You argument seems to revolve around creativity and innovation; Crisis Core was lacking in both. Weak character development, weak plot, weak dialogue. And what about rehashing the reactor incident for the third? fourth? time is innovative and creative?

Uhmyeah.

Anyway, I think someone brought this up in the thread already, but if XIII is truly horrible, then it'll go the way of DoC and end up for $14.99 on the used games rack. Simple as that!

That's funny you say that about CC because again. FFXIII sure did take a lot out of CC's handbook.

Chapter format. Linear level design and plot progression. Limited character customization and stat development. Inability to back track towards locations. No means of actual exploration outside of combat. Letting you redo mission battles from the beginning with full HP. Being able to shop and get items wherever you are....

FFXIII definitely learned a lot from CC, in terms of game design.

I'm talking about creativity and innovation in GAME design. FFXIII has the breath and scope of a damn PSP game, and its for the PS3. This is pathetic. The only thing FFXIII has a leg up on CC is its battle system.

You can bash CC's story as much as you want, but at least it makes for a good GAME. A game that can't even make itself a good, entertaining game in terms of its mechanics is like a cake made out of plaster and clay. Sure it looks good, but you sure as hell can't eat it and feel satisfied.

 

[Zee]

So wait, you are bashing FFXIII before you've played it in it's entirety, but then compare it to CC, which you thought had good gameplay, and...what is this i don't even

You can bash CC's story as much as you want, but at least it makes for a good GAME. A game that can't even make itself a good, entertaining game in terms of its mechanics is like a cake made out of plaster and clay. Sure it looks good, but you sure as hell can't eat it and feel satisfied.

I can bash CC all I want, because I've actually played it! : )

And, what? So as long as the gameplay's fun, the story can be as shitty as it wants? How about, y'know, wanting some sort of balance? I'll take a hit for gameplay (again: I did it for the Trance system, which was kinda annoying) if the story and characters are engrossing enough.

Honestly, I haven't played the game, so I'm not going to pass judgement on how much I like or dislike character customization, battle system, etc. Everyone is different, and what's too little for one is just enough for another. I'm actually going to experience it for myself before calling it shit.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You argument seems to revolve around creativity and innovation; Crisis Core was lacking in both. Weak character development, weak plot, weak dialogue. And what about rehashing the reactor incident for the third? fourth? time is innovative and creative?

What it was is become the incident that pushed me over the edge in terms of accepting "what the developers say goes" for canon. They couldn't keep shit as simple as that straight while we can?

Bullshit. That's lazy and a slap in the face to fans.

This is actually the first Final Fantasy I've been excited for since IX. My biggest issue with the FFs I didn't like was the character development. If I don't give a shit about the characters, then why bother playing at all? So far, from what I've seen, the cast of FFXIII is one I can actually get invested in. Seriously, I don't even remember the last time I was this excited over a new FF installment, so I'm happy.

I think you're going to be quite pleased then.

And they, if there are people out there who can find something to like about FF8, I'm sure there's going to be something we can find to like 13.

What's not to like about FFVIII?

Nah, I know it has its problems. I can't help but love it, though.

That's funny you say that about CC because again. FFXIII sure did take a lot out of CC's handbook.

Chapter format. Linear level design and plot progression. Limited character customization and stat development. Inability to back track towards locations. No means of actual exploration outside of combat. Letting you redo mission battles from the beginning with full HP. Being able to shop and get items wherever you are....

FFXIII definitely learned a lot from CC, in terms of game design.

True, it did. And I'm not going to disagree that we should be able to have some interaction with hover bikes and planes when exciting stuff is happening involving hover bikes and planes.

The sense that "That would have been an awesome sequence to play!" can quickly give way to "Wait, why couldn't we play it?" given that Metal Gear Solid 4 let us operate a Metal Gear of all things.

Still, XIII has better characters and story, so no u.

I should point out, by the way, that once you get to the final battles, you have the option of warping out of the final dungeon. Presumably, to do those hunts you've not already done.

Granted, I know that doesn't make up for the lack of general town exploration that's possible even in FFX despite the pilgrimage -- but just sayin'.

You can bash CC's story as much as you want ...

Will do!

... but at least it makes for a good GAME.

I do have to agree that it had one of the greatest moments of synergy between story and gameplay ever -- the DMW breaking down as Zack died.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So wait, you are bashing FFXIII before you've played it in it's entirety, but then compare it to CC, which you thought had good gameplay, and...what is this i don't even

Do I need to step into a building to see what its structural weaknesses and design flaws are? Do I need to literally touch every stone and crevice to see where the craftmanship was haphazardly done?

See, you're trying to tell me that by playing this game, I'm somehow going to magically forgive all of its DESIGN FLAWS as a GAME because its story is going to be so super awesome and shiny, I'll be moved to tears, and that will somehow make it a good game.

No. It won't. I'm not arguing it'll have a great story and it'll look good. I already think it looks good anyways. But I don't need to fucking play the game to see that its mechanics are completely inferior to games I have played such as Uncharted, MGS4, or Arkham Asylum. PS3 games that are of a much higher quality and have a lot more RPG and character interactive elements than this game, which is supposed to be an RPG.

I can bash CC all I want, because I've actually played it! : )

And I can criticize FFXIII's gameplay mechanics (or lack thereof) because they aren't there. The fact they aren't there, is the criticism. Me playing the game isn't going to magically make them appear in the game. The elements of an RPG GAME won't just appear by playing it.

And, what? So as long as the gameplay's fun, the story can be as shitty as it wants? How about, y'know, wanting some sort of balance? I'll take a hit for gameplay (again: I did it for the Trance system, which was kinda annoying) if the story and characters are engrossing enough.

A game can be a good GAME with a bad story. What the hell's the point of a game that can't even be played properly? It's like food you can't eat. You'd rather just stare at a game that plays itself, rather than play it? No. That's not why most people play games. They want to PLAY them. Not watch them.

Honestly, I haven't played the game, so I'm not going to pass judgement on how much I like or dislike character customization, battle system, etc. Everyone is different, and what's too little for one is just enough for another. I'm actually going to experience it for myself before calling it shit.

Okay, fair enough. But i"m calling it out on its shit because of what it lacks. Not what's in it. No amount of glitz and glamour is going to fill the void of what they left out.

 

[Loxetta]

You argument seems to revolve around creativity and innovation; Crisis Core was lacking in both. Weak character development, weak plot, weak dialogue. And what about rehashing the reactor incident for the third? fourth? time is innovative and creative?

Zack is a major player in the Nibelheim incident, did you honestly expect them to tell his story and just gloss over that event? The guy spent four years in a tube because of what happened in that town.

What it was is become the incident that pushed me over the edge in terms of accepting "what the developers say goes" for canon. They couldn't keep shit as simple as that straight while we can?

Bullshit. That's lazy and a slap in the face to fans.

Actually I thought the handling of Nibelheim was done pretty well. Yea, it's not the same as is told in the future timeline by the other characters, but you gotta look at it in-universe. Zack takes his version of what happened to his grave. For whatever reason, he didn't tell Cloud that Genesis was there, so of course Cloud wouldn't know. And the Turks weren't present the first day, and what they 'knew' from later was proven inaccurate anyway. It's not hard to wrap one's head around the fact that something happened there that the rest of the characters weren't informed of. It's a very realistic way of approaching it.

And looking at it out-of-universe: As I said, the Nibelheim incident was unavoidable in CC. Sqex could have either given us the same-exact-boring-heard-it-a-million-times version, or they could have revealed something about it we didn't know, to make it more interesting and suprise us. Personally, I would have considered the former a slap in the face before the latter.


@Mako: While I agree with you, you make it sound like everyone is going to suck Sqex' balls and pass off FF13's flaws becuse of it's name, or some shit like that. If FF13 is truly that bad, and it sucks, then people will bitch about it. It happened with Dirge of Cerberus, which had a big name on it. The game was more or less an experiment, and the expeiment failed. The game sucked. The players bitched. Square-Enix heard them. And Square-Enix took note. A company can't maintain the status quo forever and still expect to grow and evolve with the times. Innovation is a trial-and-error process, and you have to step outside the lines once in a while to see if there's something new and possibly better to bring to the table.

 

[Makoeyes987]

While I agree with you, you make it sound like everyone is going to suck Sqex' balls and pass off FF13's flaws becuse of it's name, or some shit like that. If FF13 is truly that bad, and it sucks, then people will bitch about it. It happened with Dirge of Cerberus, which had a big name on it. The game was more or less an experiment, and the expeiment failed. The game sucked. The players bitched. Square-Enix heard them. And Square-Enix took note. A company can't maintain the status quo forever and still expect to grow and evolve with the times. Innovation is a trial-and-error process, and you have to step outside the lines once in a while to see if there's something new and possibly better to bring to the table.

Well I dunno..those Japanese gamers seem to be drinking FFXIII's cum juice like milk, despite it all

But yeah, you raise a good point, and I know the shitstorm will happen once its finally released overseas to all. But I'm just angry and disappointed. I was expecting a game of truly epic, PS3 proportions, and I got something that could argubably pass off its gameplay elements as something for the PSP. It just sadden and angers me a lot. Cause this is Final Fantasy, and I expect more.

I sure as hell hope SE will take note, cause if not, something bad's gonna happen to their future sales and consumer base.