Something's wrong, and I'm gonna say it - FFXIII Spoilers abound

[Dashell]

If I walk into your house and say to you "there's a dead cat spiked to a cross in your living room, this is scary, I wanna go home" I'm not fault finding your home! I'm stating a fact.

No you're not, I have no such thing
... wow man that's just... creepy... *covers cats eyes* don't look guys.

Anyways I've seen reviewers do this before, not saying they always do... but Sonic Unleashed yadidahdah.

Tres and hito have said they enjoyed it, but they have acknowledged several gameplay features that have been stripped from this game. While they say they still enjoy it, that doesn't change the fact that they are missing. That is what I don't like. It has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the actual story. I'm sure I will like it for what its worth. But that won't make it a good game to me.

Well as you said, you'll probably find something about it you like. Maybe you'll hate the rest idk, but...

.. god i don't even remember my point anymore

I've listened to Tres and hito. It was their confirmation that finally led me to realize this game is not what I was hoping for and disappointed me greatly.

Maybe you'll have better luck with a remake of FFVII

 

[Makoeyes987]

If there were that many reviewers lying, people would have said so and given examples. The reviewers and players aren't pulling this out of their butt. The game doesn't have this. Ergo, the criticism is warranted. I don't need to play the game to be valid to say this. Now if I wanted to say that its character interaction and story were shitty, then yeah. I'd need to have actually played the game to have a leg to stand on.

I've never criticized its story.

And I've said numerous times, that FFVII's remake and direction would be indicative of how they worked with FFXIII. And now I feel very disturbed and chilled by all this.

 

[Dashell]

If there were that many reviewers lying, people would have said so and given examples. The reviewers and players aren't pulling this out of their butt.

I never said they were lying but they can be pretty full of themselves.

And I've said numerous times, that FFVII's remake and direction would be indicative of how they worked with FFXIII. And now I feel very disturbed and chilled by all this.

I know and it's kind of funny that a few days ago we argued about a remake and now I'm kind of anxious about it and you're dreading it.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I never said they were lying but they can be pretty full of themselves.

Mako isn't basing his feelings for the game based on someone's opinion though. He's not saying he thinks it'll be bad because someone has said it will/is bad. Someone/reviewers have said the game is missing the following things that Mako finds important for a game.

Therefore, what he's saying is valid. Unless the reviewers are lying and these things are present in the game, then he doesn't need to play the game himself to know that these things are missing and therefore the game isn't worth as much as he thought it would be.

 

[Dashell]

I think you're confusing what I said about reviewers with Mako. I never said his opinion wasn't valid, I said the reviewers bandwagon and are sometimes full of themselves.

 

[looneymoon]

Lol I'm kinda glad I never got too hyped up about this game. The last time I was excited for an FF was for FFX, I was disappointed (though I learned to like it over time). I was amazed by FFXII which I pretty much knew nothing about. With XIII at least I know to continue being apathetic until I finally get the chance to play it. Not in any rush to do that from the looks of it tbqh.

And seriously - I understand what Mako et al. are saying. Hate to add to all the analogies, but if my favourite TV show killed off my favourite character (the character I primarily watched the show for) I would probably be extremely hurt and disappointed. I'd still watch out of obligation and the previous dedication I put into it, but that does not that I'll likely like it less than before. It's just not the same when you lose the key element which makes what you love special.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Actually I thought the handling of Nibelheim was done pretty well. Yea, it's not the same as is told in the future timeline by the other characters, but you gotta look at it in-universe. Zack takes his version of what happened to his grave. For whatever reason, he didn't tell Cloud that Genesis was there, so of course Cloud wouldn't know. And the Turks weren't present the first day, and what they 'knew' from later was proven inaccurate anyway. It's not hard to wrap one's head around the fact that something happened there that the rest of the characters weren't informed of. It's a very realistic way of approaching it.

I'm not talking about Genesis being there. I'm just talking about how drastically different the telling of the battle in the reactor is from LO and BC's tellings -- and, of course, the original game's. All four tellings are very different.

Some involve Cloud throwing Seph in. Others involve Seph jumping in. Some involve a Turk being there during the fight. Three versions involve Seph entering the Lifestream from withiin JENOVA's room, while one has the room looking completely different from the others. At least one version involves Tifa being conscious enough to have a conversation with Cloud.

Obviously this renders them all mutually exclusive from one another.

CC's telling also isn't based in Zack's perspective. Parts of that event were beyond his eyesight, and the scene with Tseng and Cissnei near the ends shows us that CC wasn't being told through the lens of what Zack experienced -- rather, it was another journey through the magical, omniscient window, as was the case in LO or BC.

Events were just being changed yet again.

A company can't maintain the status quo forever and still expect to grow and evolve with the times. Innovation is a trial-and-error process, and you have to step outside the lines once in a while to see if there's something new and possibly better to bring to the table.

Well said.

I know and it's kind of funny that a few days ago we argued about a remake and now I'm kind of anxious about it and you're dreading it.

That is rather ironic. XD

Mako's been looking to FFXIII as an indication of how a remake of FFVII Would be handled, so ... XD Well, I can see why he fears that the highway chase would no longer be interactive.

Still, Mako, play nice. Remember that you and Que are on the same side.

She just has more optimism.

 

[Dashell]

I'm not talking about Genesis being there. I'm just talking about how drastically different the telling of the battle in the reactor is from LO and BC's tellings -- and, of course, the original game's. All four tellings are very different.

LO isn't canon though, and what did BC show?

 

[Makoeyes987]

No Tres. I've had quite enough.

I'm gonna have to play rough!

(BC showed Sephiroth jumping)

 

[Isabella]

Sometimes I quietly wonder if Mako is merely playing the role of Passionate Fanboy, and if the final laugh will be on us.

 

[Loxetta]

I'm not talking about Genesis being there. I'm just talking about how drastically different the telling of the battle in the reactor is from LO and BC's tellings -- and, of course, the original game's. All four tellings are very different.

Some involve Cloud throwing Seph in. Others involve Seph jumping in. Some involve a Turk being there during the fight. Three versions involve Seph entering the Lifestream from withiin JENOVA's room, while one has the room looking completely different from the others. At least one version involves Tifa being conscious enough to have a conversation with Cloud.

Obviously this renders them all mutually exclusive from one another.

CC's telling also isn't based in Zack's perspective. Parts of that event were beyond his eyesight, and the scene with Tseng and Cissnei near the ends shows us that CC wasn't being told through the lens of what Zack experienced -- rather, it was another journey through the magical, omniscient window, as was the case in LO or BC.

Events were just being changed yet again.

I stand corrected about the POV matter then. But it kind of shoots your argument in the foot. If CC isn't a POV telling of Nibelheim, it's the reality of what happened. And LO and the original telling by Cloud are not. Those are stories, re-tellings, which we know now aren't entirely accurate. Facts got truncated or misrepresented because the characters telling the story weren't close enough to the event and/or went schizo.

The only real discrepancy is Sephiroth fighting Zack on that cyberpunk platform below Jenova's glass jar, which should be taken with a grain of salt anyway since it's a boss fight and that whole gameplay != story events thing is applicable.

Well said.

Thank you.

 

[Arianna]

Alright, I'm in the process of scanning now, the article should be up (and I know I said by last night, evening at best) by today, again evening. Sorry, because I know at least one of you is waiting for this... Forgive me, please (been working). </interruption>

Regarding the changes of Sephiroth's last moments alive, personally I think they're bogus. I mean, he either jumped in or he was forced in. I, for one, have never heard of a sui-homo-cide. *shrugs* I would appreciate (though I know now that I will not get a) final, correct answer.

 

[Makoeyes987]

CC gave the final answer with again, showing him getting chucked in.

And I wouldn't say the original is wrong either, since the guidebooks specifically reference that telling of Nibelheim's incident as well.

 

[CK]

@ mako.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Alright, I'm in the process of scanning now, the article should be up (and I know I said by last night, evening at best) by today, again evening.

Sweet. Thanks.

LO isn't canon though ...

Now it isn't, no.

... and what did BC show?

I don't even know where to begin with this clusterfuck. I'll compare it to LO's version, since that's the closest thing it resembles.

The fight still ends in JENOVA's room, but we're back to the original form of that room from the original game. The Turk on the scene has an expanded role -- including getting knocked out by Sephiroth when he attacks them and causes a huge crater inside the mako reactor's pod room.

Yes. For real:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5432613

The crater obviously wasn't there in LO, or CC for that matter.

Anyway, the Turk wakes up around the same time Cloud is moving the wounded Tifa, then talks with the wounded Zack. As far as I can tell, there's no moment of Zack telling Cloud to kill Sephiroth here.

Anyway, the Turk actually runs into JENOVA's room with Cloud and Seph after Cloud throws the fucker against the wall like he did in LO. And then, with the Turk right there in the room, Seph -- who doesn't appear to be wounded and isn't carrying JENOVA's head -- walks right up to JENOVA's container, presumably grabs the head, and then leaps into the mako pit (the screen flashes after he walks up to the container to make up for the game's shitty capabilities in presenting those last two developments).

And despite all of that, somehow, the Turk on the scene concludes that Cloud killed Seph and caused him to fall into the mako (per the report Tseng was reading in LO).

And that's just the beginning of BC's shit. I seriously hate that fucking game.

CC gave the final answer with again, showing him getting chucked in.

She said a final, correct answer, fuck stick.

And I wouldn't say the original is wrong either, since the guidebooks specifically reference that telling of Nibelheim's incident as well.

I stand corrected about the POV matter then. But it kind of shoots your argument in the foot.

No, it's the basis of my argument. XD

If CC isn't a POV telling of Nibelheim, it's the reality of what happened.

And that's the problem. We'd already been given three "realities of what happened" before -- a fourth just made me throw up my hands and say:

^(This needs to be a site emoty, by the way. Somebody make it happen.)

Though this would probably be more appropriate to the occasion:

And LO and the original telling by Cloud are not. Those are stories, re-tellings, which we know now aren't entirely accurate. Facts got truncated or misrepresented because the characters telling the story weren't close enough to the event and/or went schizo.

That's the thing -- you could make that excuse for Cloud maybe, but you can't for LO's telling. The events depicted in LO are at odds with the report that Tseng is reading, which says -- in plain English, in fact -- that it was concluded by the Turks that Cloud killed Seph before succumbing to his own wounds.

LO was another journey through that magical, omniscient window.

The only real discrepancy is Sephiroth fighting Zack on that cyberpunk platform below Jenova's glass jar, which should be taken with a grain of salt anyway since it's a boss fight and that whole gameplay != story events thing is applicable.

I don't know. As far as "canon" -- whatever the fuck that is at this point -- is concerned, I imagine it's supposed to be for realz and shit.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I think you're confusing what I said about reviewers with Mako. I never said his opinion wasn't valid, I said the reviewers bandwagon and are sometimes full of themselves.

Fair enough then, sorry for the confusion. I guess just because Mako was trying to explain why he didn't need to play the game for his opinion to be valid I thought you were arguing against that.

 

[Loxetta]

tl;dr stuff about BC

..................????

How did that even get published? I presumed BC's Nibelheim was in line with LO since they're Turk versions. I can completely see where you're coming from now, so far as this game is concerned.

Holy crap...

She said a final, correct answer, fuck stick.

You sound more and more like a mod every day.

And that's the problem. We'd already been given three "realities of what happened" before -- a fourth just made me throw up my hands and say:
<lulzy macro>
^(This needs to be a site emoty, by the way. Somebody make it happen.)

Seconded.

That's the thing -- you could make that excuse for Cloud maybe, but you can't for LO's telling. The events depicted in LO are at odds with the report that Tseng is reading, which says -- in plain English, in fact -- that it was concluded by the Turks that Cloud killed Seph before succumbing to his own wounds.

LO was another journey through that magical, omniscient window.

...

LO isn't canon though ...

Now it isn't, no.

(You know, since LO and BC were only released in Japanese, I bet they're more confuzzled than any of us will ever be...)

So the only ones really worth comparing are Crisis Core's and Cloud's Retelling. But anyone that dissagrees that Cloud unavoidably got it wrong is a dorkfish. Cloud did not have a full deck when he first told it. And the 'real' version he and Tifa rediscovered in the Lifestream wasn't technically wrong, either -- it just didn't have all the facts because Cloud never knew the full story himself.

There is nothing wrong with CC showing a different version of the Nibelheim fiasco, because it doesn't actually contradict what we were told in FF7. It just portrays the incident from a different angle, and just fills in the subtle gaps of Cloud's version.

I don't know. As far as "canon" -- whatever the fuck that is at this point -- is concerned, I imagine it's supposed to be for realz and shit.

I dunno, it seems rather detatched and out of place, that's why I usually take it as gameplay and story segregation. Why would a mako reactor that's over 30 years old have a shiny knew neon-highlighted glass platform with... nothing on it? I dun get it.


Also: Maybe this needs it's own thread.

 

[Ryushikaze]

My explanation of LO and BC- they aren't further looks into slightly AU versions of the same events, they are, as was said, retellings- Damn turks just keep making up stories to try and get a good bonus that year. One even wrote himself into the story, damn Sue.

Really, the BC and LO versions definitely don't count- new overrides older, definitely- except in very specific cases where they still are cited as important, like LO's conversation, with the rest of it going by the wayside.
Like with Han Solo shooting second and then at nearly the same time as Greedo, it's more of a deliberate toying with the story. It happens at times, and sometimes it does require a 'crisis' esque setting of the record.

At least it's better than the many chefs ruining Star Wars's pies.
Jedi are evil and in league with palpy and there are only 3 million clone troopers across a 130+ million LY galaxy, and it's just propaganda up and down, you know.
Because Journo.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

..................????

How did that even get published? I presumed BC's Nibelheim was in line with LO since they're Turk versions. I can completely see where you're coming from now, so far as this game is concerned.

Holy crap...

Yeah, it's pretty craptacular.

And that's without even taking into account shit like there being a female of Red XIII's race in Cosmo Canyon at the time he left -- which he knew about (she was going into some shrine thing where she's supposed to stay until after the events of Dirge), rendering his anguish about being "the last of his kind" completely retarded.

To say nothing of his conversation with Bugenhagen on his deathbed. "It's a wide world and you must go out and see it... You may even find your life's mate. You never know."

Yeah, you never know, Bugen. Maybe there's another of his kind out there somewhere in the wide, wide world. Maybe. Like maybe two fucking blocks away??

Fucktarded as hell.

And then there's Barret having already been in Corel on the day Shin-Ra destroyed it rather than arriving on the scene while returning from an out-of-town trip of several days, as reported in the original game.

You sound more and more like a mod every day.

Is that good or bad? XD

(You know, since LO and BC were only released in Japanese, I bet they're more confuzzled than any of us will ever be...)

Probably so.

LO did get an official English release eventually, though. It came with the North American Limited Edition of AC (the one with the On the Way to a Smile translations).

So the only ones really worth comparing are Crisis Core's and Cloud's Retelling. But anyone that dissagrees that Cloud unavoidably got it wrong is a dorkfish. Cloud did not have a full deck when he first told it. And the 'real' version he and Tifa rediscovered in the Lifestream wasn't technically wrong, either -- it just didn't have all the facts because Cloud never knew the full story himself.

There is nothing wrong with CC showing a different version of the Nibelheim fiasco, because it doesn't actually contradict what we were told in FF7. It just portrays the incident from a different angle, and just fills in the subtle gaps of Cloud's version.

Well, it does contradict a few things in that 1) Cloud now throws Seph into the mako in JENOVA's room rather than on the catwalk in the room before the pod room, 2) he attacks Seph and gets knocked down before being skewered in CC, 3) he picks up the Buster Sword in JENOVA's room rather than in the pod room, and 4) Zack lands on the steps in CC instead of against a pod.

But, yeah, minus those comparatively small details, you can make the argument that the original telling and CC's version fit together pretty well. In fact, just assuming that Cloud wasn't remembering things exactly right would clear up the overall discrepancy if CC's was the only other version that had been made.

Still, I think CC's version is kind of dumb anyway. Prior to the retcons, I never even fathomed that the roundish floor in JENOVA's room meant that one wrong step would send a technician rolling off into the mako below. That's really stupid, in my opinion.

I dunno, it seems rather detatched and out of place, that's why I usually take it as gameplay and story segregation. Why would a mako reactor that's over 30 years old have a shiny knew neon-highlighted glass platform with... nothing on it? I dun get it.

Same logic that thought involving JENOVA in the battle would be a good idea, I guess (yes, Kitase really wanted to do this until Nomura said it was stupid).

Also: Maybe this needs it's own thread.

Probably.

Still, I think it's somewhat related to the original topic.

At least it's better than the many chefs ruining Star Wars's pies.

I'd say it's worse. If Gordon Ramsay has himself and a couple dozen apprentice chefs in the kitchen all preparing the same stuff, you expect some degree of deviation in results. If Chef Ramsay is the only chef in the kitchen, he should be able to maintain consistency.

The Compilation of FFVII titles have all had the same primary developers as the original game. So wtf.

... and there are only 3 million clone troopers across a 130+ million LY galaxy ...

One of the wost ideas ever.

 

[Alex]

lol, sucks for Mako

 

[Madame Mayor]

One of the wost ideas ever.

So you're one of the... what was it again... 12 of us. We need to gather and fight against this stupidity. (The author who decided that said something stupid like only a handful of people would find this idea completely stupid, rather than a majority of the fandom like it turned out).

At least it's better than the many chefs ruining Star Wars's pies.

At least Star Wars has that rule about canon where if it contradicts something higher on the canon list, than it's not canon.

From Wookiepedia:

These debates broke out between Karen Traviss (sometimes alongside fellow Fandalorians) and the opposed fans she often referred to as "Talifans".

lolololololol

Oh man she also wrote Gears books *facepalm* Stop ruining fandoms!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So you're one of the... what was it again... 12 of us. We need to gather and fight against this stupidity. (The author who decided that said something stupid like only a handful of people would find this idea completely stupid, rather than a majority of the fandom like it turned out).

Fans can make a difference in this sort of shit. Remember the laughable length of 8 kilometers originally presented for the Executor Super Star Destroyer? At a more precise length of 19 kilometers -- the official word since 2004 onward -- this was a wee bit off.

It only took 20 years of people calling bullshit on 8 kilometers -- and then on 12.8 -- to finally get it right. XD

 

[Ryushikaze]

All we need with SE is to look back and have them declare some things 'infinities' as it were.

And as for the 'Talifans,' it was 'less than a dozen', so that's three of us, already...

As for the Jenova room, it's probably intentionally perilous so as to protect anyone from taking the specimen who wasn't properly equipped.

 

[Arianna]

As promised, a day late.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v114/NebetSeta/Scans/

This is of the Playstation August 2009 article by Teresa Dun, previously quoted from.

 

[Isabella]

Wookiepedia? Please tell me that's a typo.