Something's wrong, and I'm gonna say it - FFXIII Spoilers abound

[The Twilight Mexican]

As promised, a day late.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v114/NebetSeta/Scans/

This is of the Playstation August 2009 article by Teresa Dun, previously quoted from.

The link asks us to log in.

 

[Arianna]

The link asks us to log in.

Sorry. I fixed the issue:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v114/NebetSeta/Scans/

 

[Madame Mayor]

Wookiepedia? Please tell me that's a typo.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Welcome,_newcomers

wookiepedia.org redirects to starwars.wikia.com

wookieepedia.org (extra 'e') gets you to a wiki written in the Wookie language apparently?

 

[Strangelove]

Better late than never.

No shops, but you can buy shit from save points? XD

I, in all honesty, have no fucking idea why this is a problem. At all. I need explanations.

How the fuck can there be any difficulty in a game that heals you after every fight

Healing after every fight doesn't make the battles themselves any easier. You'd either be healing yourself (meaning you'd have to be buying items all the time with the amount of damage that is dealt) or they'd have to implement MP which would be insane considering how much you have to use skills, or just let you use the skills unlimitedly in the field as well, in which case jfc do it yourself, game.

allows you to re-do a fight you lost

Allows. You're not forced to. Go reload your last save if you want to.

And still don't see the trouble with this. Bring up a reason this is a bad thing, and not just bring up the fact you can and say it sucks

controls your party members completely, without any input from the player?

FFXII?

Yeah, the computer controls the other characters. But if you just sit there, in the same Optima all the time, you'll either die or (if you have a Healer) win but it'll take ages. And you might still die depending on the enemy.

But thankfully, you can just restart from before you entered that battle and give it another go/avoid it if you can

The reason the game's hella linear is kinda justified by the plot, isn't it? You're being hunted by nearly everyone in the world; you can't just backtrack or spend hours lolly gagging in a town, if you're constantly being chased.

And by the time you get to the Palamecia you find out that you've been helped along the way by the Fal'cei (or however you spell it) and it's all been part of their plan.

Obviously, it's like that because that's how they wrote it, and they could have written it differently.

A bit more Cocoon exploration would have been nice, though.

Actually, FFXIII seems like Crisis Core. Linear paths, chapters, sidemissions only consist of beating up monsters, no exploration (yeah, the tiny Midgar bit doesn't fucking count).

Except the battle system seems more fun in XIII.

Now you mention it, that might work best as an example for what it's like.

Except FFXIII has Gran Pulse to explore, which is probably bigger than all of CC's maps put together. (Or not, because I cba to check.)

It's a fucking fact that there are no towns or interaction with NPCs in this game.

What about having towns are you going to miss? Or most random NPCs you'd meet in them?

Which is an honest question, btw

 

[Makoeyes987]

I, in all honesty, have no fucking idea why this is a problem. At all. I need explanations.

.....

So I guess it'd be okay if a RPG just did away with all forms of a battle system too and just had you walk around and see cutscenes all the time.

Exploration, interaction, and immersion into the actual world of the game is quintessential in an RPG. And that goes with the whole element of actually interacting with a town via shops, people, etc. FFVII's world is remembered so fondly because you got to talk to a shit load of people. It has some of the longest scripts of NPC dialogue in Final Fantasy.

Healing after every fight doesn't make the battles themselves any easier. You'd either be healing yourself (meaning you'd have to be buying items all the time with the amount of damage that is dealt) or they'd have to implement MP which would be insane considering how much you have to use skills, or just let you use the skills unlimitedly in the field as well, in which case jfc do it yourself, game.

Bullshit. If you're not being forced to manage your resources (either via MP, AP, etc) that's a very large burden being lifted from your shoulders. Part of the difficulty of a dungeon crawl or adventure is being prepared and having enough energy to just make your way through a dungeon and back with what you're able to carry. That's what made the Necrohol of Naubudis so damn tough. Yes, you should be forced to heal yourself until you make it to a save point.

Allows. You're not forced to. Go reload your last save if you want to.

And still don't see the trouble with this. Bring up a reason this is a bad thing, and not just bring up the fact you can and say it sucks

The fact they allow it, means its no longer a mandatory part of the challenge, which cheapens the overall difficulty of the game. What's the point in challenging gamers with bosses and shit, if you're just going to give them a hand holding escape pod through the gameplay? Why bother? Either make it difficult and make them rise to the occassion, or make the game as easy as Mystic Quest.

A game's satisfaction and enjoyment is derived from its ability to challenge a player and let them do more than just button mash through one death tube to another.

FFXII?

You programmed the party members. And it allowed for a shitload of customization in terms of behavior.

Yeah, the computer controls the other characters. But if you just sit there, in the same Optima all the time, you'll either die or (if you have a Healer) win but it'll take ages. And you might still die depending on the enemy.

Most reviews and players have said you don't have to change Optima very often, except in a few boss battles. And that hardly was a very difficult, or challenging experience.

But thankfully, you can just restart from before you entered that battle and give it another go/avoid it if you can

...Yeah, that's lame.

And by the time you get to the Palamecia you find out that you've been helped along the way by the Fal'cei (or however you spell it) and it's all been part of their plan.

Obviously, it's like that because that's how they wrote it, and they could have written it differently.

A bit more Cocoon exploration would have been nice, though.

Exactly. There's no justification. If they wanted there to be towns, RPG elements, and the like, they could've been there. The plot is no excuse. Somehow the heroes of FFVII were capable of going through all the towns and shit wanted by Shinra. I suppose the creators could've just had you go from Midgar, then Junon, and then Icicle Inn, then the creator, because of the very same reasoning. It's piss poor.

Now you mention it, that might work best as an example for what it's like.

Except FFXIII has Gran Pulse to explore, which is probably bigger than all of CC's maps put together. (Or not, because I cba to check.)

And that's sad. FFXIII for the PS3 is at the same level and scope as a damn PSP spin off game? Is this the best they could do?

What about having towns are you going to miss? Or most random NPCs you'd meet in them?

Which is an honest question, btw

No exploration means no immersion or interaction with the plot and world of FFXIII. I play RPGs to escape and get into not just a good plot, but a good scenario and game. It's digital roleplaying. Getting to know a whole new world, and characters is fun. Seeing how a new fantasy world was crafted is great. It shows the creativity of the team in making the game. FFXII did it extremely well with Ivalice, the Clan Primer, and all the NPCs you spoke to. Oh, and the hunts. The stories behind each hunt made going around killing those fuckers worth it.

An RPG is not just for watching pretty CGI cutscenes, its to actually get into the heart of the story and craft it yourself. Its why RPGs had YOU put your name as the main character, because it was supposed to make you feel like you were part of the story.

How the fuck are you supposed to get into an RPG's world and story when it doesn't let you do any of that? All you're doing is looking at the characters do cool shit and hit the occasional button to allow it to continue. That's not an RPG. It's sad most games today that are *not* RPGs have more elements of the RPG genre than the RPGs themselves.

 

[Super Mario]

I knew it'd be crap from what the trailer showed me. (you don't go with 3 members of the party ala KH and XII does) no explorations is a little bit shit too, but we should just appreciate what they have to give and enjoy. My cash is on Versus XIII and AGITO to rectify this mess.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I knew it'd be crap from what the trailer showed me. (you don't go with 3 members of the party ala KH and XII does) no explorations is a little bit shit too, but we should just appreciate what they have to give and enjoy. My cash is on Versus XIII and AGITO to rectify this mess.

I don't have to appreciate shit, if I'm paying for it.

They aren't giving me crap. I'm having to spend my money on this. So no, I'm gonna tell them to shove off.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

How the fuck can there be any difficulty in a game that heals you after every fight

Saga Frontier I and II, and Romancing Saga are some of the most legitimately difficult and challenging RPGs ever released and they heal you after every fight. The games would be more or less impossible if this wasn't the case.

Just pointing that out for everyone.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Saga Frontier I and II, and Romancing Saga are some of the most legitimately difficult and challenging RPGs ever released and they heal you after every fight. The games would be more or less impossible if this wasn't the case.

Just pointing that out for everyone.

Shut yo' mouth!!!

I sincerely doubt FFXIII is as hard as Saga Frontier. I doubt I'll even break a sweat with FFXIII, but we'll see.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Shut yo' mouth!!!

I sincerely doubt FFXIII is as hard as Saga Frontier. I doubt I'll even break a sweat with FFXIII, but we'll see.

Yeah, I agree too. I pretty much agree with everything you're saying, but I want to illustrate that healing after every fight is an unconventional, but possible design alternative to make a challenging RPG. I'll explain it for those unfamiliar.

Like I said, Saga Frontier I and II, and Romancing Saga (for the purpose of example, I'll narrow it down to the Romancing Saga released for the PS2) are some of the most difficult RPGs ever released. Not difficult as in "fuck this game its cheating", but like, legit hard.

In all three of these titles, your HP is fully healed after every fight (this might not be the case in SF II, but even then if I'm remembering right, your HP gets a certain percentage back each fight, which means there are no healing items). In these games, this is less of a crutch and more of a merciful act for a few reasons.

One; it only applies to your HP in all three titles. Your SP (used for magic) and your WP (used for physical skills) don't regenerate per fight. You can regenerate WP/SP per turn in SF II and RS, but not fully per fight. So you can't just run around dungeons willy nilly nuking everything to death. Many Saga games have items that function as a Tent you can use everywhere to restore your WP/SP, but they're usually limited to like, 4 at the absolute most in the entire game.

Two; all Saga games have a feature called LP, which stands for Life Points. Every character has them, usually going from the highest at 20-ish, and the characters with the lowest LP can have as little as 5. If your character gets knocked out, you lose a LP. Certain enemies may have attacks that directly attack your LP (usually 1 LP per hit, not much but it adds up).

If a character loses all his LP, he's considered dead and is completely removed from your party. In SF I and II this can be remedied by resting, but in Romancing Saga that usually means you have to recruit that character all over again. Sometimes, if this is a character recruited in a special way or from a place you can't go back to, whoops, he's gone forever, you dumbass. Also, if your main character loses all his LP he's straight up seriously dead and you get a game over.

Max LP can't ever be raised, and it can only be restored by resting or very rare items. You can equip rare items that prevent your LP from going down via attacks, but they're so rare that players covet them to death all the way up to the final boss. So that means you can't go traipsing around a dungeon getting killed all the time.

Three; the game just gives you enough on your plate as it is. I absolutely don't mind stocking up on potions and such when I'm playing Final Fantasy and other RPGs, but Saga games generally have too much for the player to worry about as it is to require them to heal after every battle.

Many bosses are balls to the wall hard, and even though Saga games allow you to grind your characters almost quite infinitely (there are no levels in Saga games, your stats go up as you use them, like FF II (but way better and not buggy as fuck like FFII)), there are some bosses that somewhat adjust to your parties relative strength, or they use tactics that make your level of strength more or less irrelevant, like attacking your LP or statusing you to death.

So, in conclusion, restoring your HP after every right CAN work, but it depends on the mechanics of the actual game. It wouldn't fit using the conventional FF system, unless they change/evolve it.

So yeah I typed a lot just now!

 

[Super Mario]

I don't have to appreciate shit, if I'm paying for it.

god damn it you got me there, ever since they got clever and made over 9000 methods to prevent piracy.

They aren't giving me crap. I'm having to spend my money on this. So no, I'm gonna tell them to shove off.

Bet your cash on AGITO and Vs. XIII ;D

 

[Strangelove]

.....

So I guess it'd be okay if a RPG just did away with all forms of a battle system too and just had you walk around and see cutscenes all the time.

That's not really anything to do with the lack of shops?

Exploration, interaction, and immersion into the actual world of the game is quintessential in an RPG. And that goes with the whole element of actually interacting with a town via shops, people, etc. FFVII's world is remembered so fondly because you got to talk to a shit load of people. It has some of the longest scripts of NPC dialogue in Final Fantasy.

But how much of that random NPC dialogue was of any actual importance? Some were funny, some gave you story/background stuff. But you could probably cut most of them and not really miss anything major.

I guess it's a difference of opinion, because I don't count 'lots of NPCs to talk to' as a fundamental reason for having liked FFVII. Or 'not enough NPCs' as a negative against FFXIII. Maybe it would have been better, I don't know. Maybe they would have been just a bunch of full-voiced and pointless extra lines.

Bullshit. If you're not being forced to manage your resources (either via MP, AP, etc) that's a very large burden being lifted from your shoulders. Part of the difficulty of a dungeon crawl or adventure is being prepared and having enough energy to just make your way through a dungeon and back with what you're able to carry. That's what made the Necrohol of Naubudis so damn tough. Yes, you should be forced to heal yourself until you make it to a save point.

It's probably one of few games that doesn't make you manage all that, out of hundreds/thousands that do. Would you consider FFT healing you after ever battle a negative against it? It's pretty much the same thing, with FFXIII's being played out at a much faster rate.

You've not played the game yourself, but you're complaining about how this takes away the difficulty. Is it such a fatal design flaw to have done things differently and taken away that aspect?

The fact they allow it, means its no longer a mandatory part of the challenge, which cheapens the overall difficulty of the game. What's the point in challenging gamers with bosses and shit, if you're just going to give them a hand holding escape pod through the gameplay? Why bother? Either make it difficult and make them rise to the occassion, or make the game as easy as Mystic Quest.

How does it cheapen the difficulty? By not making you go all the way back to wherever you last saved because you accidentally went the wrong way and got into a fight you couldn't win? The battles have still got the same difficulty, regardless as to where they put you (or you choose to go) if you lose. It's basically just a 'continue' feature (and make-shift 'flee'). Have you got a problem with games that have continues?

It's not a mandatory part of the game to use the feature. If people don't want to, the other option is right there. Right under the one for people who don't mind/care/who like the option. Maybe you just weren't prepared for that particular enemy, but instead of making you lose all the items and points you obtained and walk all the way back through a dungeon, they just put you in front of the enemy so you can change your equipment/characters/Optimas or walk away.

You programmed the party members. And it allowed for a shitload of customization in terms of behavior.

Now Square did it for you The character AI is FFXII's gambits (heal wounded characters, cast Protect/Shell/etc., use Fire on enemies weak to it), combined together and done automatically, mixed in with the job system from FFX-2.

Most reviews and players have said you don't have to change Optima very often, except in a few boss battles. And that hardly was a very difficult, or challenging experience.

Most RPGs you can probably win at the majority of battles with just pressing 'attack' over and over, then occasionally healing. Once you've reach a certain level, you could just power your way through them.

I've found I've used positive and negative status abilities more in this than maybe any other FF before it. Especially as you go through the game. I don't think I would have made it through Gran Pulse if I'd have just stuck with the same Optima and pushed the automatic 'attack' all the time.

But maybe I'm just not as ttly awesome as most reviewers and players

...Yeah, that's lame.

You're lame.

Exactly. There's no justification. If they wanted there to be towns, RPG elements, and the like, they could've been there. The plot is no excuse. Somehow the heroes of FFVII were capable of going through all the towns and shit wanted by Shinra. I suppose the creators could've just had you go from Midgar, then Junon, and then Icicle Inn, then the creator, because of the very same reasoning. It's piss poor.

But it was only Shinra who were after Cloud and the others, unlike FFXIII where Everyone hates l'Cei and when they realise who they are, will either run away or try to kill them.

It's another story-related reason, so obviously they could have changed that. Make the people not hate l'Cei so much (but rewrite the rest of the story to work about that) or have Snow, Sazh and Fang's l'Cei marks hidden so NPCs wouldn't be able to see them (but then the player can't either and can't see them changing).

No exploration means no immersion or interaction with the plot and world of FFXIII. I play RPGs to escape and get into not just a good plot, but a good scenario and game. It's digital roleplaying. Getting to know a whole new world, and characters is fun. Seeing how a new fantasy world was crafted is great. It shows the creativity of the team in making the game. FFXII did it extremely well with Ivalice, the Clan Primer, and all the NPCs you spoke to. Oh, and the hunts. The stories behind each hunt made going around killing those fuckers worth it.

An RPG is not just for watching pretty CGI cutscenes, its to actually get into the heart of the story and craft it yourself. Its why RPGs had YOU put your name as the main character, because it was supposed to make you feel like you were part of the story.

How the fuck are you supposed to get into an RPG's world and story when it doesn't let you do any of that? All you're doing is looking at the characters do cool shit and hit the occasional button to allow it to continue. That's not an RPG. It's sad most games today that are *not* RPGs have more elements of the RPG genre than the RPGs themselves.

When I asked that, I was mainly thinking from a gameplay standpoint. Towns gave you a place to rest (not needed in FFXIII), a place to buy items (not needed in FFXIII) and equipment (you'll pretty much find everything you need and can upgrade the rest), and instructions about where to go next.

But after I posted that, I did consider the world-building perspective. And in that way, it might be missing out. Anything can be improved on.

But actually playing it, I didn't really miss them that much. I wouldn't have minded seeing more locations, but I wanted to explore more of Padora in Gran Pulse, the empty ruins of a city, more than I wanted to walk around Palumpolum in Cocoon more talking to NPCs. I like seeing the locations more.

It was kind of annoying when FFVIII suddenly cuts you off from towns in the final disk, because it was taking away something that they'd let you do (explore towns) during the rest of the game. FFXIII didn't really take anything away, because it didn't really give you them in the first place.

You still get details and history of the world through the Auto Clip database, and the text passages you get for completing certain Cie'th Stone missions. Plus I thought the mythology of FFXIII was meant to be shared and expanded on with Versus and Agito, which is two more games to expand on and explore the world.

 

[Tetsujin]

The world in FFXIII might feel less immersive with no towns and NPCs to talk to, but maybe that was the point?
If they are hated or feared by everyone as l'Cie, not being able to go to any populated place would leave you feeling lonely and isolated in this huge world and maybe that's what they intended. Of course you could still let them roam through towns and have people not give a shit about it as in FFVII, but that wouldn't have really made you feel shunned by anyone else.

Then again, I haven't played the game so I'm not in the position to write huge paragraphs about it yet and I might be completly wrong after all.

 

[Strangelove]

The world in FFXIII might feel less immersive with no towns and NPCs to talk to, but maybe that was the point?
If they are hated or feared by everyone as l'Cie, not being able to go to any populated place would leave you feeling lonely and isolated in this huge world and maybe that's what they intended. Of course you could still let them roam through towns and have people not give a shit about it as in FFVII, but that wouldn't have really made you feel shunned by anyone else.

Then again, I haven't played the game so I'm not in the position to write huge paragraphs about it yet and I might be completly wrong after all.

I thought about that but forgot to add it

Everyone in Cocoon hates/fears Pulse and anyone remotely connected to it, which is why no one seems that bothered that an entire city is 'exiled' to a place everyone in Cocoon thinks of as Hell because there was a dormant Pulse Fal'Cei next to it. (IIRC the people supported it as well.) Having the characters consider themselves in a world full of enemies because of their being l'Cei would seem odd if you could walk around towns nonchalantly chatting to the nice old woman who sells you potions. So maybe not having many NPCs was done intentionally to make you feel isolated and alone.

But that's guessing about the creator's intentions so I'll leave it at that until books come out and possibly expand on what their plans were

 

[ForceStealer]

I've found I've used positive and negative status abilities more in this than maybe any other FF before it.

See, that sounds pretty cool to me.

I don't like that you can't control the other characters...but I didn't like it in XII either, gambits be damned.

 

[Strangelove]

It would be nice to be able to change character in battle. Given that's it's in real time it wouldn't really work to control all of them at the same (or be too much work), but switching control, like you could switch the leader in battle in FFXII, would be nice.

 

[ForceStealer]

X-2's combat was damn fast and could control everyone, and that was what made it so much fun. I thought maybe XIII might dethrone X-2 as my favorite FF battle system, but it doesn't seem like it.

 

[Strangelove]

I forgot about FFX-2's speedy battle system and only remembered the job changing

AI party members can have the same problems (damn you, Persona 3 characters, for not doing what I want when I want), though I don't mind FFXIII's isn't really bad. Though I wish the Enhancer would start with the character I'm controlling all the time. And at least having the option to change characters still would have been nice (especially if your control character dies but the other two are completely fine).

 

[ForceStealer]

...does that give you game over like in Persona 3? I understand that your main character probably can't die as easily and cheaply as it can in Persona, but damn that was annoying.

 

[Strangelove]

It depends who you're fighting When you first get to Gran Pulse, if you run into the massive enemies they can kill your whole team with a single attack, and in the final dungeon if the enemies gang up on your control character you'll be dead soon. (There are some who use Death as well, although I don't think it ever worked on my main character even without accessories against it.) Your control character can use items and TP abilities, which activate straight away so if you're really in danger you can use potions or Full Cure, but that depends on how much danger you're in.

You do get a game over if your control character's HP reaches zero but thankfully, unlike Persona 3, FFXIII lets you start over from that battle and not where you last saved

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Now Square did it for you The character AI is FFXII's gambits (heal wounded characters, cast Protect/Shell/etc., use Fire on enemies weak to it), combined together and done automatically, mixed in with the job system from FFX-2.

You know, I described it in that exact way to Mako via IM and I would swear I heard sobbing through MSN.

The world in FFXIII might feel less immersive with no towns and NPCs to talk to, but maybe that was the point?
If they are hated or feared by everyone as l'Cie, not being able to go to any populated place would leave you feeling lonely and isolated in this huge world and maybe that's what they intended. Of course you could still let them roam through towns and have people not give a shit about it as in FFVII, but that wouldn't have really made you feel shunned by anyone else.

Very well said. Thematically, it fits what you described perfectly.

Why make you an outsider in the plot and then not make you feel like one as you play the game? If we're going to talk about an immersive experience, Mako, you need to address this.

Really, it would be like holding the lack of NPCs against Shadow of the Colossus -- when part of the point was to make you feel as isolated as you ever have while playing a game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why make you an outsider in the plot and then not make you feel like one as you play the game? If we're going to talk about an immersive experience, Mako, you need to address this.

Bullshit. See FFX. Just because you're on the run and outsiders doesn't mean you're never, ever, going to run into people, or actually interact with the environment and culture of the world.

 

[Tetsujin]

Bullshit. See FFX.

How about no?

None of these games were supposed to make you feel like a complete outsider. Yuna always had some supporters.

The point is they were most likely going for a heavier emphasis on how much l'Cie are hated and/or feared by everyone.

To quote Tres:
Why make you an outsider in the plot and then not make you feel like one as you play the game?

Did FFX ever make you feel like an *actual* outsider? Did VII do that? Did any FF game do that? The answer is no.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How about no?

None of these games were supposed to make you feel like a complete outsider. Yuna always had some supporters.

The point is they were most likely going for a heavier emphasis on how much l'Cie are hated and/or feared by everyone.

When you go rogue against Yevon and are wanted by all of Spira save for the Al Bhed, yeah. You're basically a complete outsider save for a handful of supporters.

So you're saying no one in FFXIII tries to support the party at all, and every single person in the entire world knows who they are?

 

[Tetsujin]

When you go rogue against Yevon and are wanted by all of Spira save for the Al Bhed, yeah. You're basically a complete outsider save for a handful of supporters.

The point is that FFX DIDN'T MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE THAT BECAUSE NO ONE IN THE TOWNS GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT YOU.