Something's wrong, and I'm gonna say it - FFXIII Spoilers abound

[The Twilight Mexican]

So you're saying no one in FFXIII tries to support the party at all, and every single person in the entire world knows who they are?

Well, that all depends on whether you want spoilers or not.

They're not exactly big, and more gameplay related than anything, I guess, but, here you go:

Spoiler

There's a couple of times after becoming l'Cie that you're around normal people. One occasion goes well enough until Jihl shows up, and, yes, you can actually talk to some people there. The other time involves a mob chasing and trying to kill your characters.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The point is that FFX DIDN'T MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE THAT BECAUSE NO ONE IN THE TOWNS GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT YOU.

The point is, is that's bullshit, and you're justifying shitty gameplay mechanics on account of an erroneous assumption that the plot exists statically, deeming it unequivocally necessary for there to be no town/RPG exploration, as if it were set in stone. What a crock. The writers can write whatever they want to fit the situation, and unless you're telling me through your own personal verification that every inhabitant of Gran Pulse knows who Lightning and the rest are, you're not making any damn sense.

FFX could've gone the same shitty linear route and had you not go through any city at all on account of the pilgrimage to Sin FFX also could have made you never ever, be capable of backtracking through any town because Yevon branded you heretics, and thus you'd be killed the minute you stepped back into civilization. But hot damn, they didn't. Somehow they were able to write the plot to fit the nature of an RPG and allow you to do mingle with society while also being branded outsiders/heretics by the church.

So no. Bullshit is called again.

Well, that all depends on whether you want spoilers or not.

They're not exactly big, and more gameplay related than anything, I guess, but, here you go:

Spoiler

There's a couple of times after becoming l'Cie that you're around normal people. One occasion goes well enough until Jihl shows up, and, yes, you can actually talk to some people there. The other time involves a mob chasing and trying to kill your characters.

Thank you for that info.

So point proven. It was possible, and actually done. Except half assed. That would've made the plot even better. Meeting people who do accept you, don't give a shit you're l'Cie, and don't fear you, while on the flip side meeting others who want to try and kill you.

Bullshit, the plot necessitated you never, ever interact with a town. It could easily work within the frame of the story, if they tried.

 

[ForceStealer]

Somehow they were able to write the plot to fit the nature of an RPG and allow you to do mingle with society while also being branded outsiders/heretics by the church.

You don't really think that do you Mako? They just didn't change anything despite changes in the plot. After being branded heretics you are free to enter all the temples! All of them! That doesn't strike as odd? (Except Bevelle, but you couldn't go to Bevelle at all anyway.)

 

[Makoeyes987]

You don't really think that do you Mako? They just didn't change anything despite changes in the plot. After being branded heretics you are free to enter all the temples! All of them! That doesn't strike as odd? (Except Bevelle, but you couldn't go to Bevelle at all anyway.)

In FFX International, whenever you try to visit the past temples, or past villages you visited, you're attack by the Yevon priests who send the Dark Aeons after you.

So again. Look at that. It works within the realm of the story, while also not stripping down RPG elements and making the game a hollow shell of an RPG.

 

[ForceStealer]

...its also something added later...

 

[Makoeyes987]

...its also something added later...

So what? ACC's shit was added later. FFVII International's plot stuff was added later. What's your point?

The entire lead in, to FFX-2 was added later in FFX International as well. Don't seriously try to tell me it doesn't count.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So what? ACC's shit was added later. FFVII International's plot stuff was added later. What's your point?

The entire lead in, to FFX-2 was added later in FFX International as well. Don't seriously try to tell me it doesn't count.

Force's point is that it's not part of the FFX experience that more than 12 people remember.

In FFX International, whenever you try to visit the past temples, or past villages you visited, you're attack by the Yevon priests who send the Dark Aeons after you.

So again. Look at that. It works within the realm of the story, while also not stripping down RPG elements and making the game a hollow shell of an RPG.

Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to disagree that if they'd wanted to make it happen, they could have written the story differently and adjusted the gameplay accordingly.

But what if they really just wanted to defy what they usually do and make you a genuine outcast who feels like one as you play the game?

Now, I'm sure you're thinking there's a real-world, development-related reason for them choosing to write it that way. Perhaps they didn't want to make development time longer. Or they just felt like being lazy. Maybe you're right.

Or maybe they just wanted to defy what they usually do and make you a genuine outcast who feels like one as you play the game.

 

[ForceStealer]

Question in FFX International, when you try to go to a past village and are attacked, can you enter the town at all?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Question in FFX International, when you try to go to a past village and are attacked, can you enter the town at all?

After defeating the ridiculously difficult Dark Aeon in the way, yes.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Force's point is that it's not part of the FFX experience that more than 12 people remember.

Sucks for them, then. FFX International is the more current, and complete iteration of the experience

Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to disagree that if they'd wanted to make it happen, they could have written the story differently and adjusted the gameplay accordingly.

But what if they really just wanted to defey what they usually do and make you a genuine outcast who feels like one as you play the game?

That sounds like the same type of justification RE fanatics try to say in justifying the mechanics of you being unable to move and shoot at the same time. They're not trying to defy convention. They're trying to defy quality. There's no damn excuse. If you want a game that makes you truly feel like an outcast or all alone, look at SotC or Ico. Look at the implementation of free roaming exploration and gameplay there, while also letting you have nothing but your solitude to keep you company.

If SE wanted to really try and make you feel alone while in an vast, expansive wild, environment, they would've tried. Instead, they half assed it, and no amount of justifying it is going to magically make it better.

Now, I'm sure you're thinking there's a real-world, development-related reason for them choosing to write it that way. Perhaps they didn't want to make development time longer. Or they just felt like being lazy. Maybe you're right.

That's the reason. No need to beat around the bush.

Or maybe they just wanted to defy what they usually do and make you a genuine outcast who feels like one as you play the game.

And if that's the case, they really are stupid, and have no idea what they're doing.

 

[ForceStealer]

After defeating the ridiculously difficult Dark Aeon in the way, yes.

And then people go back to not caring about your heretical status?

 

[Makoeyes987]

And then people go back to not caring about your heretical status?

Because everyone in Besaid, or hell, all of Spira, are fanatical Yevon diehards who'd instantly turn their back on Yuna and want to crucify her like Christ.

No, not everyone's going to care about Yuna's status as a heretic. Because Yuna's still Yuna, no matter what the people in funny hats say.

 

[ForceStealer]

So instead each and every one of them supports Yuna's noble crusade and has no fear of Yevon seeing them associate with her in public? EVEN IN THE THE TEMPLES? Not ONE of them is fooled by the lies that this woman murdered a Maester?

 

[Makoeyes987]

So instead each and every one of them supports Yuna's noble crusade and has no fear of Yevon seeing them associate with her in public? EVEN IN THE THE TEMPLES?

Obviously not, if someone there reported Yuna and tried to have someone from Yevon capture her with Dark Valefor. What are you not understanding?

 

[ForceStealer]

I'm not understanding how this constitutes a masterful combination of gameplay elements with situational awareness of the plot. So some guy with a Dark Aeon comes after her, but after she deals with it, no one has ANY problems publicly conversing and doing business with the woman who murdered a religious leader.

It's not like certain people support Yuna and everyone else runs in terror. The towns are literally unchanged.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not understanding how this constitutes a masterful combination of gameplay elements with situational awareness of the plot. So some guy with a Dark Aeon comes after her, but after she deals with it, no one has ANY problems publicly conversing and doing business with the woman who murdered a religious leader.

So I guess FFX should have random space crafts and cave ins constantly fall behind you to prevent you from ever backtracking, right? That'd be much better.

It's a goddamn game. I guess you'd have it constantly keep you on a one-track murder path where you can only go forward except the random isolated areas you branch off to kill things, get your treasure, and get back on the action tube to get to the final destination.

If Tidus and co are stupid enough to decide to somehow go back to Guadosalam or Macalania Temple to say "hay gaiz", the Guado are more than happy to give you a cold welcome and try to kill you. But guess what? FFX is a fucking game, and it's not going to suddenly forget that it's an implementation of gameplay and story telling that allows the player to interact while also having fun and enjoying its interactive gameplay elements as well.

The towns don't remain "unchanged." The NPCs say different pieces of dialogue and react accordingly if they're either devout Yevonites, or devout supporters of Yuna. Have you forgotten what FFX was like all of a sudden?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sucks for them, then. FFX International is the more current, and complete iteration of the experience

An experience that none of us here, and most people around the world -- including in Japan -- did not get. Therefore, it's hardly comparable to FFXIII.

That's the reason. No need to beat around the bush.

It probably is, but I'm just saying.

And if that's the case, they really are stupid, and have no idea what they're doing.

I'm going to laugh at you when this becomes your favorite FF.

Obviously not, if someone there reported Yuna and tried to have someone from Yevon capture her with Dark Valefor. What are you not understanding?

Well, really, we don't know that she was reported. More than likely, they were waiting for her in Besaid, because they know that's where she came from.

All the others seem like traps in the hopes that she wanders back through certain places.

And then people go back to not caring about your heretical status?

Well, see for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTUMKkAXe7M

In Besaid at least, Yuna still had her supporters.

And now that I think about it, Valefor was the only one to get in your way when you tried to enter a town.

All the others show up in out-of-the-way-places. Macalania Temple is really the only other place that's town-like where a Dark Aeon is sent after you if you return -- and they should hate you there anyway. The Guado actually run your ass off from the temple after the fight, even though you won.

Though once you leave you can just walk back in for whatever reason.

 

[ForceStealer]

Now you're contradicting yourself, Mako.

Somehow they were able to write the plot to fit the nature of an RPG and allow you to do mingle with society while also being branded outsiders/heretics by the church.

It's a goddamn game. I guess you'd have it constantly keep you on a one-track murder path where you can only go forward except the random isolated areas you branch off to kill things, get your treasure, and get back on the action tube to get to the final destination.

If Tidus and co are stupid enough to decide to somehow go back to Guadosalam or Macalania Temple to say "hay gaiz", the Guado are more than happy to give you a cold welcome and try to kill you. But guess what? FFX is a fucking game, and it's not going to suddenly forget that it's an implementation of gameplay and story telling that allows the player to interact while also having fun and enjoying its interactive gameplay elements as well.

So which is it? X managed to incorporate the plot into gameplay in a cohesive manner, or they just kinda said stuff happened but didn't noticeably affect its RPG elements?

Perhaps with XIII they wanted the gameplay to ACTUALLY be consistent with the idea the plot is conveying. I'm picking on X here, but it could be anything, VII people should freak out when heavily armed AVALANCHE busts into their houses. And I'm not saying they should have, but you're railing for XIII for perhaps trying to get rid of that disconnect with the gameplay and the story.

Fallout 3, for example. It had hardly any towns to begin with, but if you piss the people of that town off, you CAN'T GET IN. Except by force. And in XIII, everyone thinks that l'cie will kill them.

 

[Makoeyes987]

An experience that none of us here, and most people around the world -- including in Japan -- did not get. Therefore, it's hardly comparable to FFXIII.

Again, sucks for them

It probably is, but I'm just saying.



I'm going to laugh at you when this becomes your favorite FF.

I hate to deprive you of laughter, but that more than likely isn't going to happen.

Well, really, we don't know that she was reported. More than likely, they were waiting for her in Besaid, because they know that's where she came from.

That's possible too, but given how FFX tells us they had a bounty on their heads, I find it a bit suspicious they'd just leave a high ranking Yevon mook to just sit in backwater Besaid until she finally could be arsed to get there. Wasn't there a Besaid fuck there who wasn't trusting of Yuna in the Temple?

All the others seem like traps in the hopes that she wanders back through certain places.

All the others show up in out-of-the-way-places. Macalania Temple is really the only other place that's town-like where a Dark Aeon is sent after you if you return -- and they should hate you there anyway. The Guado actually run your ass off from the temple after the fight, even though you won.

Not just certain places. Certain places that are either on the path to Yevon temples/cities, or places that are sacred to Yevon proper.

Though once you leave you can just walk back in for whatever reason.

No one in their right mind would even want to go back to Guadosalam after the people ran you out with pitchforks and fiends.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Perhaps with XIII they wanted the gameplay to ACTUALLY be consistent with the idea the plot is conveying. I'm picking on X here, but it could be anything, VII people should freak out when heavily armed AVALANCHE busts into their houses. And I'm not saying they should have, but you're railing for XIII for perhaps trying to get rid of that disconnect with the gameplay and th story.

Qfft.

Let 'em try something different once.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Now you're contradicting yourself, Mako.





So which is it? X managed to incorporate the plot into gameplay in a cohesive manner, or they just kinda said stuff happened but didn't noticeably affect its RPG elements?

Perhaps with XIII they wanted the gameplay to ACTUALLY be consistent with the idea the plot is conveying. I'm picking on X here, but it could be anything, VII people should freak out when heavily armed AVALANCHE busts into their houses. And I'm not saying they should have, but you're railing for XIII for perhaps trying to get rid of that disconnect with the gameplay and th story.

That's not a contradiction at all. They managed to integrate the proper gameplay elements into the plot because they didn't forget its a game and meant to entertain while also telling a story with its gameplay elements. There's no contradiction there at all.

FFXIII's gameplay is ridiculous at best, if they tried to keep it convincing with the plot. How many fucking ironic situations where the party gets separated, or cut off from ever EVER going backwards or to the damn side, can happen in a scenario realistically?

FFXIII is the epitome of "disconnect with gameplay" because it hardly fucking exists.

DERP DERP lets keep going forwards! OOPS! CAVE IN! Can't go back now!! Damn! That sure keeps happening a lot, Sazh!

 

[ForceStealer]

FFXIII is the epitome of "disconnect with gameplay" because it hardly fucking exists.

Because every societal outcast throughout history actually had no problems wandering about major cities. I'm sure slaves could wander freely into Atlanta, or lepers into Jerusalem because, hey, not everyone can hate'em.

(And doesn't the game open up at a certain point allowing you to "go back?" I haven't played so I don't really know, but I keep hearing about how it opens up later on.)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because every societal outcast throughout history actually had no problems wandering about major cities.

(And doesn't the game open up at a certain point allowing you to "go back?" I haven't played so I don't really know, but I keep hearing about how it opens up later on.)

....Are you fucking for real? If the game constantly keeps throwing random plot shit behind you in its efforts to keep you in every possible way from ever going back, to the point the game is told in chapter by chapter format, that makes sense? That's the removal of gameplay disconnect in keeping the story real and believable? Having some random whatchamafuck constantly happen that ever keeps you from going back?

How do you go back? The game's told in chapter-by-chapter format. You can't go back to a previous chapter and pick up something you may have forgot. You either get it while on the way or don't. The game opens up as in, you can explore other places and shit, but you can't tangibly go backwards.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Again, sucks for them

Still think it's a bit of a hard sell to call it "the FFX experience" and compare it to FFXIII. But I did just remember that the PAL territories got the Dark Aeons, so there is a fairly significant population who only ever experienced that one version.

I think I'll halfway concede this one to you.

That's possible too, but given how FFX tells us they had a bounty on their heads, I find it a bit suspicious they'd just leave a high ranking Yevon mook to just sit in backwater Besaid until she finally could be arsed to get there. Wasn't there a Besaid fuck there who wasn't trusting of Yuna in the Temple?

Well, what makes more sense: a) they left a high-ranking mook in Besaid in case she showed up, or b) somebody spotted her on the path to Besaid, used a telephone they didn't have to call an office that doesn't exist in Bevelle, and somehow a priest took a boat that Spira doesn't have that was fast enough to get him from Bevelle to the town of Besaid before Yuna and her guardians could even finish walking down the path?

Not just certain places. Certain places that are either on the path to Yevon temples/cities, or places that are sacred to Yevon proper.

Not really. Mushroom Rock Road? The Thunder Plains? The ruins of Home? Not exactly sacred.

For that matter, these and all the other locations -- with the exception of the entrance to Besaid, and, to a lesser extent, the entrance to Macalania Temple -- are easily avoided.

These are all the locations:
-Entrance to Besaid (Valefor)
-Ruins of Home (Ifrit)
-Thunder Plains (Ixion)
-Entrance to Macalania Temple (Shiva)
-Yunalesca's chamber (Bahamut)
-Cavern of the Stolen Fayth (Yojimbo)
-Entrance to Mt. Gagazet (Anima)
-Mushroom Rock Road (Magus Sisters)

FFXIII's gameplay is ridiculous at best, if they tried to keep it convincing with the plot. How many fucking ironic situations where the party gets separated, or cut off from ever EVER going backwards or to the damn side, can happen in a scenario realistically?

It is pretty funny, actually. XD It's like the first 15 or 20 hours of FFXII, with being shuffled from one jail to the next.

(And doesn't the game open up at a certain point allowing you to "go back?" I haven't played so I don't really know, but I keep hearing about how it opens up later on.)

It does once you reach the final dungeon. Still think there's a lot of places you can't go back to, though, if I remember right (i.e. towns).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, what makes more sense: a) they left a high-ranking mook in Besaid in case she showed up, or b) somebody spotted her on the path to Besaid, used a telephone they didn't have to call an office that doesn't exist in Bevelle, and somehow a priest took a boat that Spira doesn't have that was fast enough to get him from Bevelle to the town of Besaid before Yuna and her guardians could even finish walking down the path?

LOL, point taken. So I guess he was left there.

Not really. Mushroom Rock Road? The Thunder Plains? The ruins of Home? Not exactly sacred.

Thunder Plains are on the way to Guadosalam. Mushroom Rock is on the way to Djose from Mi'ihen Highroad. Only one that is rather out of the way, is "Home" where Dark Ifrit chillaxes until he sees you.

For that matter, these and all the other locations -- with the exception of the entrance to Besaid, and, to a lesser extent, the entrance to Macalania Temple -- are easily avoided.

These are all the locations:
-Entrance to Besaid (Valefor)
-Ruins of Home (Ifrit)
-Thunder Plains (Ixion)
-Entrance to Macalania Temple (Shiva)
-Yunalesca's chamber (Bahamut)
-Cavern of the Stolen Fayth (Yojimbo)
-Entrance to Mt. Gagazet (Anima)
-Mushroom Rock Road (Magus Sisters)

The only one that's really out of the way or not a place connected to Yevon, is Home. All those are paths to towns or villages, dude.

It is pretty funny, actually. XD It's like the first 15 or 20 hours of FFXII, with being shuffled from one jail to the next.


It does once you reach the final dungeon. Still think there's a lot of places you can't go back to, though, if I remember right (i.e. towns).

There's a difference between finally being free to wander, and then going back. Yeah, you don't get to go "back" to anywhere.